[quote=""4th&long""]Well, I hear what u are saying but don't agree at least to your conclusions. The fall does have risks but potential as well. It also has a dearth of players looking for an opportunity that a smaller league can provide. When the afl started the USA population was half what it is today, and now FB is bigger than ever. Cities like SA, LA, VB, Sacramento, Portland, Orlando, OKC, SLC, ..... you get the point.[/quote]
You always have players. Finding players provides no problem at all regardless of the season. Football's overall popularity is undeniable, but cashing in on it is an entirely different animal because you really have a pretty good supply, at least in the fall. Between the NFL and colleges you have games available five days a week, Thursday through Monday.
[quote=""4th&long""]Tv FB is also bigger than ever. And unlike other sports FB is very limited to days it's played leaving 4 days w/o FB. An alt league only needs a small fraction of the tv revenue compared to nfl.[/quote]
But no TV network is willing to provide any revenue to an alternate league right now, not without heavy backing. They don't have to. If they're inclined to televise an alt league at all, they can have the league pay for it. That's the reality of the marketplace. The XFL had paying deals because TV wanted to make nice with WWE. The WLAF originally had deals because of its ties to the NFL. The UFL? It had to pay to be on cable, and not the most popular stations either. Obtaining good TV money is one of the most important and difficult pieces of the puzzle, right after obtaining good ownership.
[quote=""4th&long""]Yes Huygue screwed the pouch and Hambrecht and co was asleep at the wheel, the money spent was squandered no doubt. But baseball, hockey minors make it during the same time as their majors. FB can as well, and likely better since it'll be more congruent rated talent wise in a larger sport.[/quote]
Baseball and hockey are less expensive to operate and don't have the same overall pressures from tremendously popular college programs. Baseball and hockey also have the benefit of being able to stage many more games, allowing for many more gates. In many markets they also have a history on their side. Football is a different animal. Most serious people even marginally interested in an alternative league run far away the first time they take a look at the revenue and expense projections.
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[quote=""preeths""]You always have players. Finding players provides no problem at all regardless of the season. Football's overall popularity is undeniable, but cashing in on it is an entirely different animal because you really have a pretty good supply, at least in the fall. Between the NFL and colleges you have games available five days a week, Thursday through Monday.
But no TV network is willing to provide any revenue to an alternate league right now, not without heavy backing. They don't have to. If they're inclined to televise an alt league at all, they can have the league pay for it. That's the reality of the marketplace. The XFL had paying deals because TV wanted to make nice with WWE. The WLAF originally had deals because of its ties to the NFL. The UFL? It had to pay to be on cable, and not the most popular stations either. Obtaining good TV money is one of the most important and difficult pieces of the puzzle, right after obtaining good ownership.
Baseball and hockey are less expensive to operate and don't have the same overall pressures from tremendously popular college programs. Baseball and hockey also have the benefit of being able to stage many more games, allowing for many more gates. In many markets they also have a history on their side. Football is a different animal. Most serious people even marginally interested in an alternative league run far away the first time they take a look at the revenue and expense projections.[/quote]
The ufl issues scared away tv partners, that and the worst recession in 25 or70 years depending on how u look at it. A steady group with good fiscal discipline and deep pockets was needed. Huygue was a red flag from the get go spending north of $1mm a year on coaches? $30 in a 4 team 6 game season? Crazy.
I do hear its a risk but the upside is there if properly executed. I would really like to see a breakdown of costs estimates.
And while there may 'always' be players avail I think the quality and desire in outdoor fall will be much higher than spring and less expensive than ufl over paid.
Also this isn't 1992 or 1974. The population is much higher, football is even more popular and tv is fragmented yet FB has stayed strong. Add to that the endless amount of sports nets needing programming and the internet..... Very different environment.
Now it's going to take someone with passion and control, a tight group that work together and persistence. That' the key and in today's world in short supply. Is elon musk avail?
I saw a good article I posted on the PIFL (understood not the same) but it was interesting insight into cost of a much smaller operation.
But no TV network is willing to provide any revenue to an alternate league right now, not without heavy backing. They don't have to. If they're inclined to televise an alt league at all, they can have the league pay for it. That's the reality of the marketplace. The XFL had paying deals because TV wanted to make nice with WWE. The WLAF originally had deals because of its ties to the NFL. The UFL? It had to pay to be on cable, and not the most popular stations either. Obtaining good TV money is one of the most important and difficult pieces of the puzzle, right after obtaining good ownership.
Baseball and hockey are less expensive to operate and don't have the same overall pressures from tremendously popular college programs. Baseball and hockey also have the benefit of being able to stage many more games, allowing for many more gates. In many markets they also have a history on their side. Football is a different animal. Most serious people even marginally interested in an alternative league run far away the first time they take a look at the revenue and expense projections.[/quote]
The ufl issues scared away tv partners, that and the worst recession in 25 or70 years depending on how u look at it. A steady group with good fiscal discipline and deep pockets was needed. Huygue was a red flag from the get go spending north of $1mm a year on coaches? $30 in a 4 team 6 game season? Crazy.
I do hear its a risk but the upside is there if properly executed. I would really like to see a breakdown of costs estimates.
And while there may 'always' be players avail I think the quality and desire in outdoor fall will be much higher than spring and less expensive than ufl over paid.
Also this isn't 1992 or 1974. The population is much higher, football is even more popular and tv is fragmented yet FB has stayed strong. Add to that the endless amount of sports nets needing programming and the internet..... Very different environment.
Now it's going to take someone with passion and control, a tight group that work together and persistence. That' the key and in today's world in short supply. Is elon musk avail?
I saw a good article I posted on the PIFL (understood not the same) but it was interesting insight into cost of a much smaller operation.
Last edited by 4th&long on Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
If you are going to try an Outdoor Pro Football league, forget August through February. With the NFL looking to sell off some of it's Thursday night games (probably to end up on FS1, NBCSN, CBSSN, or ESPN) and College on most of the rest of the days, everything is locked up.
You MIGHT get it to work as an April to June regular season of 10 games (pre-season in late March, 4 team playoffs in the first 2 weeks of July). Your competition is MLB, MLS, and the NBA & NHL playoffs. This would also give the better players the chance to make it to NFL training camps if they are asked.
It would have to be a mix of big markets (NY, LA, Chi, etc) and mid-markets (Birmingham, Columbus, SEC/Big12/Big10 towns, etc). Big markets for TV, mid-markets for crowds.
Of course, none of this is original and has been tried before and failed. The problem is you need owners with big pockets to try it and their egos will want to go into the fall, which is a death sentence.
Dave
You MIGHT get it to work as an April to June regular season of 10 games (pre-season in late March, 4 team playoffs in the first 2 weeks of July). Your competition is MLB, MLS, and the NBA & NHL playoffs. This would also give the better players the chance to make it to NFL training camps if they are asked.
It would have to be a mix of big markets (NY, LA, Chi, etc) and mid-markets (Birmingham, Columbus, SEC/Big12/Big10 towns, etc). Big markets for TV, mid-markets for crowds.
Of course, none of this is original and has been tried before and failed. The problem is you need owners with big pockets to try it and their egos will want to go into the fall, which is a death sentence.
Dave
[quote=""dmbishop""]If you are going to try an Outdoor Pro Football league, forget August through February. With the NFL looking to sell off some of it's Thursday night games (probably to end up on FS1, NBCSN, CBSSN, or ESPN) and College on most of the rest of the days, everything is locked up.
You MIGHT get it to work as an April to June regular season of 10 games (pre-season in late March, 4 team playoffs in the first 2 weeks of July). Your competition is MLB, MLS, and the NBA & NHL playoffs. This would also give the better players the chance to make it to NFL training camps if they are asked.
It would have to be a mix of big markets (NY, LA, Chi, etc) and mid-markets (Birmingham, Columbus, SEC/Big12/Big10 towns, etc). Big markets for TV, mid-markets for crowds.
Of course, none of this is original and has been tried before and failed. The problem is you need owners with big pockets to try it and their egos will want to go into the fall, which is a death sentence.
Dave[/quote]
I am not looking to get flamed here but College is not Pro. U could see that clearly even in the ufl. The issue with the spring is that you may not be competing with the nfl but you are with spring itself. And unlike MLB, NBA and NHL gate income is more important than tv at least compared to nfl. Not saying that can't work either but it's got risk reward too.
I agree spring opens up some big markets that u'd avoid in the fall but there are still plenty of larger unserved non-pro markets.
You MIGHT get it to work as an April to June regular season of 10 games (pre-season in late March, 4 team playoffs in the first 2 weeks of July). Your competition is MLB, MLS, and the NBA & NHL playoffs. This would also give the better players the chance to make it to NFL training camps if they are asked.
It would have to be a mix of big markets (NY, LA, Chi, etc) and mid-markets (Birmingham, Columbus, SEC/Big12/Big10 towns, etc). Big markets for TV, mid-markets for crowds.
Of course, none of this is original and has been tried before and failed. The problem is you need owners with big pockets to try it and their egos will want to go into the fall, which is a death sentence.
Dave[/quote]
I am not looking to get flamed here but College is not Pro. U could see that clearly even in the ufl. The issue with the spring is that you may not be competing with the nfl but you are with spring itself. And unlike MLB, NBA and NHL gate income is more important than tv at least compared to nfl. Not saying that can't work either but it's got risk reward too.
I agree spring opens up some big markets that u'd avoid in the fall but there are still plenty of larger unserved non-pro markets.
Don't think the Fall is the problem I think there is still space during football season. Fans of pro football would watch on Friday nights , Thursday nights with only limited comp. College football on Friday and even an NFL game on Thursday presents minimal competition It's not like playing on Sundays or Saturdays. How many minor leagues sports play a different season from the major league sport. The UFL had many serious problems , but playing in the Fall was not one of them. Why would a large market without an NFL team or a major college team want their football in the Spring , when baseball. basketball and hockey is going on?
My city San Antonio always come up in the alternative league discussion, but put a football team in the Spring/Summer and they are going up against 6 other professional sports teams. Very different from the time of the USFL,when there was only two other teams. In the Fall they would go up against a mid-major recent start up college team. I see other potential markets would be in the same boat. Actually the only advantage to the Spring is playing in major TV markets because theoretically is enough population to go around. But then again how is a minor league team going up against major league sports teams vis-a vis the media . What kind of coverage would it get? I think Spring football is dead, it died along time ago. If an alternative league is to succeed they will have to do it during the traditional football season.
My city San Antonio always come up in the alternative league discussion, but put a football team in the Spring/Summer and they are going up against 6 other professional sports teams. Very different from the time of the USFL,when there was only two other teams. In the Fall they would go up against a mid-major recent start up college team. I see other potential markets would be in the same boat. Actually the only advantage to the Spring is playing in major TV markets because theoretically is enough population to go around. But then again how is a minor league team going up against major league sports teams vis-a vis the media . What kind of coverage would it get? I think Spring football is dead, it died along time ago. If an alternative league is to succeed they will have to do it during the traditional football season.
Last edited by Andy J on Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AndyG
[quote=""4th&long""]I am not looking to get flamed here but College is not Pro. U could see that clearly even in the ufl. The issue with the spring is that you may not be competing with the nfl but you are with spring itself. And unlike MLB, NBA and NHL gate income is more important than tv at least compared to nfl. Not saying that can't work either but it's got risk reward too.
I agree spring opens up some big markets that u'd avoid in the fall but there are still plenty of larger unserved non-pro markets.[/quote]
I don't believe most people really care that college isn't pro when they're looking for a game on a Friday or Saturday. Most fans aren't scouts. The college teams are recognizable enough and have large built-in fanbases and media attention aplenty. They're known entities and the networks which carry them know what ratings and viewership they can expect, so no one's going to drop them for a new league. Other networks won't want to even compete against them. You'll have a much more difficult time convincing people to watch two new teams in a new league when many will still believe Auburn could beat either of them.
I agree spring opens up some big markets that u'd avoid in the fall but there are still plenty of larger unserved non-pro markets.[/quote]
I don't believe most people really care that college isn't pro when they're looking for a game on a Friday or Saturday. Most fans aren't scouts. The college teams are recognizable enough and have large built-in fanbases and media attention aplenty. They're known entities and the networks which carry them know what ratings and viewership they can expect, so no one's going to drop them for a new league. Other networks won't want to even compete against them. You'll have a much more difficult time convincing people to watch two new teams in a new league when many will still believe Auburn could beat either of them.
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[quote=""Andy J""]Don't think the Fall is the problem I think there is still space during football season. Fans of pro football would watch on Friday nights , Thursday nights with only limited comp. College football on Friday and even an NFL game on Thursday presents minimal competition It's not like playing on Sundays or Saturdays. How many minor leagues sports play a different season from the major league sport. The UFL had many serious problems , but playing in the Fall was not one of them. Why would a large market without an NFL team or a major college team want their football in the Spring , when baseball. basketball and hockey is going on?
My city San Antonio always come up in the alternative league discussion, but put a football team in the Spring/Summer and they are going up against 6 other professional sports teams. Very different from the time of the USFL,when there was only two other teams. In the Fall they would go up against a mid-major recent start up college team. I see other potential markets would be in the same boat. Actually the only advantage to the Spring is playing in major TV markets because theoretically is enough population to go around. But then again how is a minor league team going up against major league sports teams vis-a vis the media . What kind of coverage would it get? I think Spring football is dead, it died along time ago. If an alternative league is to succeed they will have to do it during the traditional football season.[/quote]
Remember baseball's affiliated minors are supported by the majors who take care of all salaries. You won't get that in football. Really, I think it's irrelevant that other sports don't compete in the opposite season from their major league counterparts (ignoring Arena and indoor football). There isn't any room in the fall. Sure, you can find cities and stadiums and play games, but you won't draw consistently, you'll have a hard time finding good sponsorships and you'll get little if any media coverage. The NFL and college ball hog all of it in the fall. Plus, if you're worried about the NBA and NHL, you still have their competition in the late fall.
You cannot survive on the gate in football. You need TV money eventually, and you're not going to get it in the fall because you're not going to get any attention.
My city San Antonio always come up in the alternative league discussion, but put a football team in the Spring/Summer and they are going up against 6 other professional sports teams. Very different from the time of the USFL,when there was only two other teams. In the Fall they would go up against a mid-major recent start up college team. I see other potential markets would be in the same boat. Actually the only advantage to the Spring is playing in major TV markets because theoretically is enough population to go around. But then again how is a minor league team going up against major league sports teams vis-a vis the media . What kind of coverage would it get? I think Spring football is dead, it died along time ago. If an alternative league is to succeed they will have to do it during the traditional football season.[/quote]
Remember baseball's affiliated minors are supported by the majors who take care of all salaries. You won't get that in football. Really, I think it's irrelevant that other sports don't compete in the opposite season from their major league counterparts (ignoring Arena and indoor football). There isn't any room in the fall. Sure, you can find cities and stadiums and play games, but you won't draw consistently, you'll have a hard time finding good sponsorships and you'll get little if any media coverage. The NFL and college ball hog all of it in the fall. Plus, if you're worried about the NBA and NHL, you still have their competition in the late fall.
You cannot survive on the gate in football. You need TV money eventually, and you're not going to get it in the fall because you're not going to get any attention.
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[quote=""preeths""]Remember baseball's affiliated minors are supported by the majors who take care of all salaries. You won't get that in football. Really, I think it's irrelevant that other sports don't compete in the opposite season from their major league counterparts (ignoring Arena and indoor football). There isn't any room in the fall. Sure, you can find cities and stadiums and play games, but you won't draw consistently, you'll have a hard time finding good sponsorships and you'll get little if any media coverage. The NFL and college ball hog all of it in the fall. Plus, if you're worried about the NBA and NHL, you still have their competition in the late fall.
You cannot survive on the gate in football. You need TV money eventually, and you're not going to get it in the fall because you're not going to get any attention.[/quote]
Really Paul with all due respect . Even the UFL as poorly as it was run; it got significant attention and media coverage in Sacramento, Omaha and Hampton Roads. You don't have competition from the NBA until late October and even then many teams are not followed in a major way until after football season. I doubt the NHL is any different. And isn't it not significant that the UFL did get television deals. You are making a point about how bad the Fall is without coming up with any reasons to play in the Spring.
You cannot survive on the gate in football. You need TV money eventually, and you're not going to get it in the fall because you're not going to get any attention.[/quote]
Really Paul with all due respect . Even the UFL as poorly as it was run; it got significant attention and media coverage in Sacramento, Omaha and Hampton Roads. You don't have competition from the NBA until late October and even then many teams are not followed in a major way until after football season. I doubt the NHL is any different. And isn't it not significant that the UFL did get television deals. You are making a point about how bad the Fall is without coming up with any reasons to play in the Spring.
AndyG
A new league can get covered locally, particularly in small markets, but it's not getting any national attention in the fall which it needs to get sponsorships and any kind of real (i.e. paying) TV deal. I don't believe the UFL teams in even those three markets were covered to the extent the local minor league baseball teams were.
Overall, attention for a league starting its season is relatively high. Attention for NBA and NHL teams in several markets can fall off a cliff after the first couple of months if the team is struggling.
You forget, I'm not arguing for the spring. It's a tough thing to establish a new league regardless of season. I'm arguing against the fall because I believe there is absolutely no way for a new league to work in the fall, not without perhaps a billion dollar investment. Literally. The odds are still small in the spring, but they're better than just about the zero that I see in the fall.
Overall, attention for a league starting its season is relatively high. Attention for NBA and NHL teams in several markets can fall off a cliff after the first couple of months if the team is struggling.
You forget, I'm not arguing for the spring. It's a tough thing to establish a new league regardless of season. I'm arguing against the fall because I believe there is absolutely no way for a new league to work in the fall, not without perhaps a billion dollar investment. Literally. The odds are still small in the spring, but they're better than just about the zero that I see in the fall.
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[quote=""preeths""]I don't believe most people really care that college isn't pro when they're looking for a game on a Friday or Saturday. Most fans aren't scouts. The college teams are recognizable enough and have large built-in fanbases and media attention aplenty. They're known entities and the networks which carry them know what ratings and viewership they can expect, so no one's going to drop them for a new league. Other networks won't want to even compete against them. You'll have a much more difficult time convincing people to watch two new teams in a new league when many will still believe Auburn could beat either of them.[/quote]
Could not disagree with you more on this, especially here in the NE. College FB gets very little attention. 90% of the people in my office don't watch it, the ones who do are from the mid west, south and plains. Radio here basically ignores it. And that's the local cbs and espn. But people are glued Sunday for pro esp local teams. So I think there is room and acceptance will depend on the region.
Could not disagree with you more on this, especially here in the NE. College FB gets very little attention. 90% of the people in my office don't watch it, the ones who do are from the mid west, south and plains. Radio here basically ignores it. And that's the local cbs and espn. But people are glued Sunday for pro esp local teams. So I think there is room and acceptance will depend on the region.
