CBA / NBDL Merger

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bectond
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Post by bectond » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:11 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Huh?!? Okay, I'll discuss those attendance issues with YOU since YOU seem to believe the NBADL will draw huge crowds. Have you changed your mind about attendance since you posted this? BTW, you were supposed to say, I do not recall... 8)

I haven't changed my mind. I don't think fans are interested enough in the D-League to make it a viable spectator sport.[/quote]

I’m of the opinion that the only humane thing for the NBA to do is to euthanize high stakes college basketball. College coaches are recruiters obsessed with winning. The development of the young men on their ball clubs takes a backseat, same goes for high school and AAU coaches. Players in America are never really given the chance to develop as people or players. Coaches don’t care about the type of people these kids are becoming or if their games are not developing properly.
I believe that if the top-athletes are removed from the college basketball landscape, the top universities would be forced to hire the best coaches rather than the top recruiters and the overall skill level of mid-level NBA players would improve due to better coaching at the college level. The elite players would also improve psychologically and technically, due to the fact that they would be allowed to train with other top-level players in all facets of the game away from the bright lights and pitfalls of big time college basketball.

In the future the D-League will mimic AA minor league baseball. However, Lower-Level development leagues, Spring League and Summer Leagues will also be needed. As will an independent league for veteran minor league types.

As for the attendance issue we have already gone over this issue at nauseam, who really cares about weather the average fan will attend developmental games en mass. As long as D-League teams can average 2,500 per game they will brake even. If a LaBron James type player ever skips college and enters the D-League, every D-League city he visited would sell out due to the curiosity of hard core fans. The average fan, most likely would not attend a developmental game to see a high school phenom because the average fan does not keep up with that sort of thing. The average fan does not know there are teams in Bismarck, Anaheim or Butte. That does not stop people from attending games in those areas. The average fan does not attend rodeos, stock car racing events, surfing competitions or the X games either. But those sports are doing just fine without the average fans interest. I doubt I’ll ever understand the point you are attempting to make on this issue.

D-League teams have grounds for existence, therefore the league will survive regardless of mass appeal. Other minor league basketball leagues don’t have a mission, they don’t serve a purpose in the supply chain, therefore they will not survive. You can’t compare the economic realities of a sponsored league with those of non-sponsored leagues. The Jazz have a vested interest in the Flash, that did not exist between them and the Utah Eagles. The owners of the Flash can expect the Jazz organization to assist their franchise because they both are working to achieve the same goals. (Developing talent) NBA teams have practiced the same principles for acquiring talent as the New York Yankees do, however they all can’t continue attempting to out spend each other every summer.

Small market teams like the Jazz and the Spurs must develop ways of leveling the playing field.
The D-League will allow them to develop talented players at a fraction of the cost entering the free agent market would.
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Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:53 pm

Oh, I think you understand my point quite well. Geez! I've stated it enough times already. :roll:

There are not enough hardcore basketball fans to support the NBADL as a spectator sport in America. That is my position. You seem to believe that there are enough of these fans. We disagree...and yes, you are right. We are going 'round and 'round on this subject seemingly to no end. Time will tell though...again.

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Post by rams80 » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:33 pm

[quote=""bectond""]I’m of the opinion that the only humane thing for the NBA to do is to euthanize high stakes college basketball. College coaches are recruiters obsessed with winning. The development of the young men on their ball clubs takes a backseat, same goes for high school and AAU coaches. Players in America are never really given the chance to develop as people or players. Coaches don’t care about the type of people these kids are becoming or if their games are not developing properly. [/quote]

And the NBA does? I'd be mad if my NBA team was more focused on developing players as opposed to winning. That's the point of playing these games. I'd argue that all your system would do would be creating fundamentally sound players who have no idea how to actually win a basketball game, because they never experienced a high pressure competitive environment before entering the NBA. They might be better citizens, but the fans won't like them because they fold up under the pressure of crunch time.
I believe that if the top-athletes are removed from the college basketball landscape, the top universities would be forced to hire the best coaches rather than the top recruiters and the overall skill level of mid-level NBA players would improve due to better coaching at the college level. The elite players would also improve psychologically and technically, due to the fact that they would be allowed to train with other top-level players in all facets of the game away from the bright lights and pitfalls of big time college basketball.
See my above point. Sometimes the best way to prepare a player for the bright lights of the NBA is to give the player prior experience in the bright lights of college. As for your assertations about coaches, I think you are a little too harsh on some of the top college coaches. Is it their fault that NBA GMs are too dumb to filter out the ESPN hype?

As for the attendance issue we have already gone over this issue at nauseam, who really cares about weather the average fan will attend developmental games en mass.
If your franchise hopes to survive, you have to attract the average fan. Minor League basketball doesn't have enough hard core fans to allow franchises to survive. Promotions and attractions for the fans are crucial-folks don't go to minor league baseball games (even AA) for the prospects, but for the entire family-oriented event.
As long as D-League teams can average 2,500 per game they will brake even.
Outside of the "CBA 4" how many teams even do that? And the "CBA 4" aren't going up against College basketball, and are marketed so average fans actually want to come.
If a LaBron James type player ever skips college and enters the D-League, every D-League city he visited would sell out due to the curiosity of hard core fans.
There aren't that many hard cores in any city except LA, and that's only because LA is so large.
The average fan, most likely would not attend a developmental game to see a high school phenom because the average fan does not keep up with that sort of thing. The average fan does not know there are teams in Bismarck, Anaheim or Butte. That does not stop people from attending games in those areas. The average fan does not attend rodeos, stock car racing events, surfing competitions or the X games either. But those sports are doing just fine without the average fans interest. I doubt I’ll ever understand the point you are attempting to make on this issue.
List of dead D-League markets:
Fort Myers
Columbus
Charleston
Little Rock
Roanoke
Asheville
Fayetteville
Greenville
Mobile
Huntsville
Fort Worth

Lessons learned: 1) Perhaps the local average fan is slightly important.
2) The Southeast is college basketball country; it appears that based on the failure of every team based there that the market prefers the college product over the minor league baseketball product, and will continue to do so until the teams are marketed and have the promotions needed to bring the people in.
D-League teams have grounds for existence, therefore the league will survive regardless of mass appeal. Other minor league basketball leagues don’t have a mission, they don’t serve a purpose in the supply chain, therefore they will not survive. You can’t compare the economic realities of a sponsored league with those of non-sponsored leagues. The Jazz have a vested interest in the Flash, that did not exist between them and the Utah Eagles. The owners of the Flash can expect the Jazz organization to assist their franchise because they both are working to achieve the same goals. (Developing talent) NBA teams have practiced the same principles for acquiring talent as the New York Yankees do, however they all can’t continue attempting to out spend each other every summer.
The League's survival will ultimately depend on the active ownership of each team by it's NBA parent. The model cannot support 30 teams any other way. If the NBA truly wants this to be a pure, exclusively developmental league, that's the only approach they can take.
Small market teams like the Jazz and the Spurs must develop ways of leveling the playing field.
The D-League will allow them to develop talented players at a fraction of the cost entering the free agent market would.
Agreed...but they'll eventually have to pay the big bucks anyway if they want to keep the players.
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This league (NIFL) is like a frickin' cockroach. You could throw a nuclear bomb at it and it would still survive
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So I'd rather spend a quarter of an ABA franchise to repair my car, as opposed to spending a franchise and a half to get a new car that might have some planned obsolescence that causes it to break down 5 days after the end of the warranty period.
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Post by ChumpDumper » Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:19 pm

If true, this is impressive:
So far, the Flash have sold more than 3,000 season tickets and signed four companies to three-year sponsorship deals. They have billboards up along I-15, have staffed tables at local events including the Revue, and will soon air their first TV commercial.
http://www.sltrib.com/sports/ci_6722855

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Post by Pounder » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:19 pm

bectond...

...the NBA-team-owned D-League teams aren't nearly enough.

The NBA has to take the draft, toss it in the dump with the rest of the trash, and create a system (which has to be an improvement on what MLS has implemented, and right out of the gate at that) in order to do what you ask.

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Post by bectond » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:34 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Oh, I think you understand my point quite well. Geez! I've stated it enough times already. :roll:

There are not enough hardcore basketball fans to support the NBADL as a spectator sport in America. That is my position. You seem to believe that there are enough of these fans. We disagree...and yes, you are right. We are going 'round and 'round on this subject seemingly to no end. Time will tell though...again.[/quote]

D-League teams are placed in close proximity to the parent team, you have to understand that first before you can move on.....
Broomfield and Denver, Orem and Salt Lake City, Austin and San Antonio....

Then you must also understand that Denver, Salt Lake City and San Antonio have hard core fans.......If you refuse to believe this fact, then of course- you can't move on. You will never understand......

You are in Gary, i'm sure there are hardcore Bulls fans in the Chicago area. If Ben Gordan and Captain Kirk started their NBA careers in Rosemont, i'm sure more than a few hardcore Bulls fans (do you agree they exist) would have some curiosity and would attend the games if the tickets were cheap. Some families would attend because Bulls tickets are too expensive and the team would also sell tickets are groups. No mass marketing would be needed, all of the bulls super fans would know that the top pick was playing in the area and they would go see him play if the price was reasonable. The same holds true for other teams no.1 picks. If LaBron were on a D-League team coming to the Chicago area prior to his NBA debut, the arena would be packed with basketball guys waiting to get the first look at James before he entered the NBA.
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Post by rams80 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:56 pm

[quote=""bectond""]D-League teams are placed in close proximity to the parent team, you have to understand that first before you can move on.....
Broomfield and Denver, Orem and Salt Lake City, Austin and San Antonio....
[/quote]
What about the other 27 NBA teams? Do they not have fans?
Then you must also understand that Denver, Salt Lake City and San Antonio have hard core fans.......If you refuse to believe this fact, then of course- you can't move on. You will never understand......
There's hard core, and then there's "going a couple of hours out of my way in a time with higher gas prices to watch some minor leaguers play hard core." I'm going to tell you how this works in hockey and baseball from my personal experience. Peoria has the St. Louis Blues' top developmental affiliate and is only 3 hours away. Do you know how many "hard core" people from St. Louis consistently show up to watch their games? 0 (And with pro hockey most fans are hard core). Peoria also has the Cubs' A affiliate. People from Chicago occasionally show up, but not enough for a franchise to survive on its own.

Unfortunately the D-Fenders never released attendance data, but it would be interesting to see how well they did when the "hard core" Laker season ticket holders were able to come in and watch games for free.
You are in Gary, i'm sure there are hardcore Bulls fans in the Chicago area. If Ben Gordan and Captain Kirk started their NBA careers in Rosemont, i'm sure more than a few hardcore Bulls fans (do you agree they exist) would have some curiosity and would attend the games if the tickets were cheap.
I'm less sure than you. Folks in Chicago might not want to take the time to go to Gary. At least more than once a year.
Some families would attend because Bulls tickets are too expensive and the team would also sell tickets are groups.
If you can't afford Bulls tickets, chances are you wouldn't be able to afford the gas and group tickets needed to go to Gary. Or you wouldn't want to go because it's "beneath you".
No mass marketing would be needed, all of the bulls super fans would know that the top pick was playing in the area and they would go see him play if the price was reasonable. The same holds true for other teams no.1 picks. If LaBron were on a D-League team coming to the Chicago area prior to his NBA debut, the arena would be packed with basketball guys waiting to get the first look at James before he entered the NBA.
Again...based on baseball and hockey. That doesn't work. Even if you had a can't miss soon to be Superstar prospect, you have to do more. You have to advertize the game, you have to market it.

Look...you can't pay for a 25 game home schedule by relying on the parent team's fans trucking down to watch their team's prospects. Only the hardest of hard core fans would even consider doing this and fewer would go through with it. A business plan based on this is fundamentally flawed.
Mean Spirited Blogger #24601

Accused of being a Cyber Terrorist by Joe Newman.

This league (NIFL) is like a frickin' cockroach. You could throw a nuclear bomb at it and it would still survive
-tony-o

So I'd rather spend a quarter of an ABA franchise to repair my car, as opposed to spending a franchise and a half to get a new car that might have some planned obsolescence that causes it to break down 5 days after the end of the warranty period.
-Chuck the Writer

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Post by bectond » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:02 pm

[quote=""Pounder""]bectond...

...the NBA-team-owned D-League teams aren't nearly enough.

The NBA has to take the draft, toss it in the dump with the rest of the trash, and create a system (which has to be an improvement on what MLS has implemented, and right out of the gate at that) in order to do what you ask.[/quote]

The NBA already has a local player allocation provision. Teams can sign a local draft eligible player prior to the D-League draft.(If that is your concern) The D-League draft is a way of preventing teams from using the D-League as a garage to park players. Removing it would allow an NBA team to cut a player in Oct, sign him to a D-League contract and promote him after the new year, the union whats to protect it's players from being yo-yoed around by the Bob Johnson's, Donald Sterling's and George Shinn's of the world.
Last edited by bectond on Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pounder » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:34 pm

No.

Next Step: NBA teams have rights to the top # of prospects in their regions coming out of high school.* There might be 6 total around the country ready to play NBA, the rest go to D-League. The whole thing does not work unless and until D-League effectively replaces college, except for a scant few kids who want the education. College still has value as a "second chance" track, and probably keeps a good number of fans who don't care what happens with the pros.

Step After That: Bypass the schools altogether. Each NBA team sponsors a rather large youth program in their city. Through about age 16, kids only compete in town, then the NBA team sponsors U-18 teams, MAYBE U-21 teams, then the D-League team. The U designations do NOT preclude a prodigy from "playing up." Around the world, this actually entrenches the pro team to the community. This could even be a moneymaker for the NBA team (fees for kids rec basketball in the 'burbs, etc.). When you think about it, POSSIBLY, you could locate the D-League team out of town, have them run a similar program there, and do the same as the NBA city does... I'm not sure that's the way to bet, but it's a thought.

* Sorry, Los Angeles and New York, you can't keep all 25 of your prospects. I figure this POTENTIALLY helps competitive balance a bit. Of course, it should be noted that leagues around the world don't generally have recruiting restrictions. This might be a temporary condition, for all I know.

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Post by ChumpDumper » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:25 pm

Yeah, that will fly.

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