CBA / NBDL Merger

[ChumpDumper]

Again...what makes you think the player will accept playing in Austin when he knows he can make more in Europe?

Well, in Ian's case, he's already being paid his NBA salary.

As far as the advantage of playing in the D-League for the average player, it's clear that it's the exposure to NBA scouts playing the NBA game. It's not rocket science. There has always been a churn of players between the D-League and Europe and that will continue. If the D-League is so unattractive to players, why do they routinely come back from Europe to play in the D-League? Opportunity.

I don't think the D-League will be a money-making operation everywhere it goes. I think attendance expectations in some venues are ridiculous. I actually kind of like how the Toros have been run -- cheap, small venue in a good location, lots of sponsors. Much more realistic than acting like you're going to sell out 18,000 seats and luxury boxes an arena in North Little Rock. I think the Vipers would have been better served playing in the venue the Silverados call home. It will be an interesting season down there. May the better team win.

[bectond]

[quote=""rams80""]Your typical major league to minor league financial subsidies don't do you a lot of good when you barely draw in 4 digits. Even if the NBA team picks up the health costs and even the player's wages, you still have to pick up the other costs of owning the franchise and the lease. .[/quote]

I don't think you understand NBA budgets, they are normally well over 100 million a year, a 1 million D-League budget is less than 1% of an NBA budget. If D-League players can save an NBA teams millions over the course of long term contracts, NBA owners would gladly fork over money to keep a development team afloat.

For instance, say player A is a 2nd round pick, the Pistons can assign him to the D-league for up to two years for development (while paying him an NBA salary.

In the D-League, player A can focus on his long term development
and not winning games. The Pistons can develop his psychological, athletic and technical skills. If he were on the Pistons bench he would not log the type of minutes needed to develop. After one or two years, player A would either move up to the Pistons for a low level salary or the Pistons would have to pay an NBA free Agent a mid-level salary if player A did not develop. The difference being 1.5 million over three years for player A and 5.3 million over three years for the free agent. If player A develops in the D-League the Pistons will save 11.5 million over the course of three years.
I never said anything about attendance or fans watching the game, you are going to have to discuss those issues with whoever raised them. I'm discussing the fact that the D-League (if successful) will improve the overall talent level of the NBA. In the Current system either you can play or you can't. Nobody is really given the chance to improve all the facets of their games during the season. Ole School types believe NBA stands for "No Babies allowed", they are not into developing talent, those types don't believe in the D-League but the Pistons and the Spurs do. Those organizations will bring about a brave new world where teams develop talent instead of attempting to out spend the other guy.



[quote=""rams80""]
If nobody is watching the game, you still can't pay the bills. Even heavily subsidized minor league baseball has to have better attendance than your non-CBA D-League team in order to survive, unless it is directly owned by a Major League team that can better support a loss (see also, Florida State League). Your model omits the fan; which is actually the most crucial aspect to survival and failure in the minor leagues.

So even with the D-League being the best financial option on the market...the real lesson here is don't even enter the business then. Minor League Basketball will not pay out..[/quote]

I don't understand any of this

[quote=""rams80""]
It's cheaper, but the players won't go for it. They'd rather get paid more to play in Europe and have a chance to play before actual crowds as opposed to empty seats, and play in more exciting locales than Sioux Falls or Bismarck. That's the fundamental flaw-and if the better young talent keeps going to Europe, the NBA teams that want it will have no choice but to sign with them. Even if the NBA were to set up an exclusive relationship with the D-League and the D-League alone, in the absence of MLB's anti-trust exemption, I can't see said relationship surviving an anti-trust lawsuit...[/quote]

Mahiami and Williams are NBA players that will be assigned to the D-League for development. They will earn an NBA pay check not D-League pay.
I don't know what you are talking about when you stated the relationship won't survive an anti-trust lawsuit.


[quote=""rams80""]
Again...what makes you think the player will accept playing in Austin when he knows he can make more in Europe? It happens all the time in hockey, and might happen in baseball if it was ever played in Europe. The players need to be willing participants for this to work, and I doubt that would happen.[/quote]

I think you should read up on the d-league some more before posting.

[bectond]

[quote=""Pounder""]bectond... get a hold of yourself. Relax.

You and rams (and others) are talking past each other, talking two completely different systems. .[/quote]

Rams does not know what he is talking about, he should research the D-League before he makes the type of statements he is making. Dude is coming out of left field.

[quote=""Pounder""]
Besides, you're getting ahead of yourself. We SEE how the NBADL CAN have a model that actually reduces costs and potentially even reduces the "thug" image... but the D-League hasn't completely stepped over the line yet. They're afraid to fully commit, to take the last step..[/quote]

The Pistons, Jazz and Spurs are the best organizations in the NBA and they are committed to the D-League. All had dudes stashed overseas and pulled them back over here to develop in the D-League instead. They are committed to balancing their budgets. (I don't know what the Lakers are doing and I refuse to have a discussion based on the actions of those nuts) Washington may be ready to drive in head first as well.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know what the Lakers are doing and I refuse to have a discussion based on the actions of those nuts

Funny. Well, they've probably had the least overhead of any D-League team so far. It'll be interesting to see how the move to Ontario works.

[rams80]

[quote=""bectond""]I don't think you understand NBA budgets, they are normally well over 100 million a year, a 1 million D-League budget is less than 1% of an NBA budget. If D-League players can save an NBA teams millions over the course of long term contracts, NBA owners would gladly fork over money to keep a development team afloat.[/quote]

Then why don't they simply just own the team, operate it in their own building, and eliminate the middle man? The Lakers' approach to their D-League team with the D-Fenders last year might end up being the best approach economically; and you'll be able to get your thirty teams.

For instance, say player A is a 2nd round pick, the Pistons can assign him to the D-league for up to two years for development (while paying him an NBA salary.

I'm curious...how does that show up on the NBA salary cap?

In the D-League, player A can focus on his long term development
and not winning games. The Pistons can develop his psychological, athletic and technical skills. If he were on the Pistons bench he would not log the type of minutes needed to develop. After one or two years, player A would either move up to the Pistons for a low level salary or the Pistons would have to pay an NBA free Agent a mid-level salary if player A did not develop. The difference being 1.5 million over three years for player A and 5.3 million over three years for the free agent. If player A develops in the D-League the Pistons will save 11.5 million over the course of three years.

This sounds great for the Pistons and less good for the player financially. I'm taking the player's financial perspective here.

I never said anything about attendance or fans watching the game, you are going to have to discuss those issues with whoever raised them. I'm discussing the fact that the D-League (if successful) will improve the overall talent level of the NBA. In the Current system either you can play or you can't. Nobody is really given the chance to improve all the facets of their games during the season. Ole School types believe NBA stands for "No Babies allowed", they are not into developing talent, those types don't believe in the D-League but the Pistons and the Spurs do. Those organizations will bring about a brave new world where teams develop talent instead of attempting to out spend the other guy.

I'm sorry...you're the one who was talking about the D-League teams as "investments" for the owners to build up and flip. Attendance is crucial to this plan, because if you don't draw fans, you won't be able to stay in business, and nobody will want to own a piece of a franchise that is drenched in debt and red ink that they'd have to repay.

I don't understand any of this

It's self explanatory. The only organizations that can afford to own D-League teams are the NBA teams themselves.

Mahiami and Williams are NBA players that will be assigned to the D-League for development. They will earn an NBA pay check not D-League pay.
I don't know what you are talking about when you stated the relationship won't survive an anti-trust lawsuit.

By maintaining an EXCLUSIVE developmental relationship with the D-League, the NBA could be justly accused of trying to force the other minor leagues out of business. That's where the anti-trust lawsuit comes in.

I think you should read up on the d-league some more before posting.

I did look up a list of "good" D-League alums. The best ones I can see are Devin Brown and Bobby Simmons. Neither one will be HOFers, and quite honestly I can't say the D-League helped them terribly. Maybe they should make a point of emphasizing winning for them so they could develop that "killer instinct" that seems to be so rare in that list of players I saw.
--------------------------------

You may rag on the Lakers, but I think ultimately the best model for the D-League will be one where the League is a NBA JV that plays in the same building and market as the NBA parent, and each team is owned by the NBA parent.

[ChumpDumper]

Then why don't they simply just own the team, operate it in their own building, and eliminate the middle man? The Lakers' approach to their D-League team with the D-Fenders last year might end up being the best approach economically; and you'll be able to get your thirty teams.

The D-Fenders are moving to Ontario, California as soon as the arena there is completed.

I'm curious...how does that show up on the NBA salary cap?

It shows up as an NBA salary.

This sounds great for the Pistons and less good for the player financially. I'm taking the player's financial perspective here.

In what way? The player is getting 10-12 times the best D-League salary, and getting more playing time than he would've gotten on the NBA club. The regular D-League player is the one who has to decide if the D-League opportuniry is worth the money he missed out on not going overseas. Stay in the D-League for two years on an NBA contract and your 2/3 of the way to a pension.

Amir Johnson just re-signed with the Pistons for $11 million after playing mostly in the D-League the past two season.

The only organizations that can afford to own D-League teams are the NBA teams themselves.

Or that own venues and other minor league tems, etc.

By maintaining an EXCLUSIVE developmental relationship with the D-League, the NBA could be justly accused of trying to force the other minor leagues out of business. That's where the anti-trust lawsuit comes in.

Judging from all the teams and leagues starting up in the next few years, that would be a pretty weak lawsuit.

I did look up a list of "good" D-League alums. The best ones I can see are Devin Brown and Bobby Simmons. Neither one will be HOFers, and quite honestly I can't say the D-League helped them terribly.

So you followed their D-League careers closely enough to be able to make that call?

[rams80]

[quote=""ChumpDumper""]The D-Fenders are moving to Ontario, California as soon as the arena there is completed.[/quote]

Do they still plan to only let season ticket holders for the Lakers in?

It shows up as an NBA salary.

So can we just write "potential cap casualty" for all these guys?

In what way? The player is getting 10-12 times the best D-League salary, and getting more playing time than he would've gotten on the NBA club. The regular D-League player is the one who has to decide if the D-League opportuniry is worth the money he missed out on not going overseas. Stay in the D-League for two years on an NBA contract and your 2/3 of the way to a pension.

In that case, I'd expand the draft, because otherwise my team isn't picking up enough players to stock a team; and my team would have to stock all of it with guys on NBA contracts.

Amir Johnson just re-signed with the Pistons for $11 million after playing mostly in the D-League the past two season.

Good for him.

Or that own venues and other minor league tems, etc.

The "let's have one team pay for another plan" works less often than you'd think...especially outside of affiliated baseball.

Judging from all the teams and leagues starting up in the next few years, that would be a pretty weak lawsuit.

Or not-the players that join those teams still think they have a shot at the NBA if they work hard enough...

So you followed their D-League careers closely enough to be able to make that call?

Can you give me a dramatic example of the D-League turning a guy into a competitive superstar?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

[quote=""bectond""]...I never said anything about attendance or fans watching the game, you are going to have to discuss those issues with whoever raised them. I'm discussing the fact that the D-League (if successful) will improve the overall talent level of the NBA... [/quote]

Huh?!? Okay, I'll discuss those attendance issues with YOU since YOU seem to believe the NBADL will draw huge crowds. Have you changed your mind about attendance since you posted this? BTW, you were supposed to say, I do not recall...

[quote=""bectond""]Ken, I’m not saying that NCAA basketball will loss popularity, I’m saying the NBA is going to take all the top prospects for there internship program (the D-League), hardcore NBA fans will flock to these games, and sponsorship deals will pour in. Who really cares about the average fan, that is a different discussion. Attendance figures will not depend on the average fan. For instance:
• Most teams will cater to sponsors and talent scouts which will account for about 750 ticket sales per game
• Season ticket holders will account for about 750 more sales
• Hard Core fans from the parent team will account for about 1,500 more sales
• Group sales to churches and schools will account for about 1,500 more sales
• Once rivalries are developed 250 fans will travel with the team
• And about 750-1,000 local single game tickets will sell for each game
That means an average of 5,500-6,000 fans will attend D-League games in the future.
If after two years, the parent club does not want the player or feels the player needs more time to develop the NBA will either sell the player off for a profit or pay a portion of players overseas salary, if they plan to bring the player back at a later date. If a player goes overseas and flops, then a domestic league like the CBA will be needed as well. So that when those players return they can continue to develop their games, sometimes it takes years to master your skills, just look at Steve Nash. IMO players should always have a viable option, there should be amount six development leagues in the US for players that want to continue playing basketball. Absorption is one of the worse things the NBA could do, it prevents a natural supply chain from developing.[/quote]

I haven't changed my mind. I don't think fans are interested enough in the D-League to make it a viable spectator sport.

[ChumpDumper]

[quote=""rams80""]Do they still plan to only let season ticket holders for the Lakers in?[/quote]1) Anyone who buys a ticket for the Laker game on the same day can get watch the D-Fenders.

2) Yes, only Laker season ticket holders will be allowed to attend games 40 miles away from the Staples Center, playing a different schedule than the Lakers. It's the perfect plan!

So can we just write "potential cap casualty" for all these guys?

As much as you can for anyone at the end of an NBA bench.

In that case, I'd expand the draft, because otherwise my team isn't picking up enough players to stock a team; and my team would have to stock all of it with guys on NBA contracts.

The D-League has it's own draft. Read up on these things before posting.

Good for him.

Yes, and a good precedent for other players sent down to the D-League.

The "let's have one team pay for another plan" works less often than you'd think...especially outside of affiliated baseball.

Tell that to the venue owners who are getting the teams. Or do you own a venue and have made this decision yourself?

Or not-the players that join those teams still think they have a shot at the NBA if they work hard enough...

So you just made a point against your lawsuit. Thanks, I guess.

Can you give me a dramatic example of the D-League turning a guy into a competitive superstar?

Perhaps you should review the name of the league. Were it National Basketball Association Guaranteed Superstars Somehow Overlooked in Two Rounds of the Draft League (NBAGSSOTRDL), you'd have a point.

[rams80]

[quote=""ChumpDumper""]
As much as you can for anyone at the end of an NBA bench.[/quote]
Except the D-League guy gets cut before the end of a bench guy because at least the end of a bench guy is on the NBA team's roster.

The D-League has it's own draft. Read up on these things before posting.

Which brings me back to the who would sign a D-League contract argument...

Tell that to the venue owners who are getting the teams. Or do you own a venue and have made this decision yourself?

They'll find out themselves soon enough...

So you just made a point against your lawsuit. Thanks, I guess.

No I didn't, because codification of an exclusive relationship would destroy that reason for players to sign with teams.

Perhaps you should review the name of the league. Were it National Basketball Association Guaranteed Superstars Somehow Overlooked in Two Rounds of the Draft League (NBAGSSOTRDL), you'd have a point.

If this league's future is one where it is the primary developmental organ of the NBA, then even the Superstars will have to get some seasoning there. Until then, it's just a way to get slightly better backups.