I'm going to sound like a prick, but for IBL folks I'd like to ask a few questions. To my knowledge the yearly dues to keep your team in the league is around $25,000. Plus you have to fly the entire team on one trip. Plus if you are from the midwest and you want to play in the championship you have to fly again to the northwest each year.
A regional league might pay refs 50 bucks a game. Most companies are willing to work an awesome deal out with teams for jerseys. And most basketball makers will do the same for game balls. If you are a successful business person you should be able to come up with your own sponsorship packages and know how to write and release a good PR.
Plus I'm seeing teams like Holland aren't paying or housing their players.
The ABA gets a lot of crap and they deserve it all. But I do honestly wonder if the IBL is getting a huge pass here just because they aren't quite as dysfunctional and do play their games.
If owners are losing money and players aren't getting taken care of why should the league get a pass?
I guess I just need to be convinced the IBL is a good value for team owners (especially in the midwest) and is fair to players. I noticed some teams are classified as not for profit. And in doing that they can get away with not paying and covering their players with non contact sport workers compensation insurance.
Any thoughts?
What value do you get in the IBL?
-
minorleagfan09
- Site Admin
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:42 am
I have some answers for you. My understanding is.....
1) Fact: it is $10,000 for almost all returning teams not $25K.
2) Opinion: the phrase not taking care of players is insulting because players are getting exactly what they were told they were getting; these players are adults who can choose to either play for a high paying team, a zero paying team or not play at all. The teams that are non-profit associations are not violating any rule; in fact, ask yourself this question- how much money should an owner lose to make something fun for the community and fun for players? There is no real significant revenue in minor league so the owner running a team is the gift to players and the community-the ones who benefit are the players who get to play (fun), get to get in shape for summer tryouts, get exposure, video, stats, etc. Every single IBL owner is giving more than they ever get back- that is certain.
3) Yes, playing every single game is important and that is a reason to celebrate the IBL as a great league. Cancelling even one home game can devastate the trust between a community and a team and the IBL never lets this happen but the bigger rebuttal is that there is nothing to pass with the IBL because we are not hiding any wrongdoing. Teams that are non-profit associations are clearly stating this to the players.
4) Teams fly one time during the season; the tournament is separate, optional- in Seattle- a city that can be gotten to for very cheap.
1) Fact: it is $10,000 for almost all returning teams not $25K.
2) Opinion: the phrase not taking care of players is insulting because players are getting exactly what they were told they were getting; these players are adults who can choose to either play for a high paying team, a zero paying team or not play at all. The teams that are non-profit associations are not violating any rule; in fact, ask yourself this question- how much money should an owner lose to make something fun for the community and fun for players? There is no real significant revenue in minor league so the owner running a team is the gift to players and the community-the ones who benefit are the players who get to play (fun), get to get in shape for summer tryouts, get exposure, video, stats, etc. Every single IBL owner is giving more than they ever get back- that is certain.
3) Yes, playing every single game is important and that is a reason to celebrate the IBL as a great league. Cancelling even one home game can devastate the trust between a community and a team and the IBL never lets this happen but the bigger rebuttal is that there is nothing to pass with the IBL because we are not hiding any wrongdoing. Teams that are non-profit associations are clearly stating this to the players.
4) Teams fly one time during the season; the tournament is separate, optional- in Seattle- a city that can be gotten to for very cheap.
-
minorleagfan09
- Site Admin
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:42 am
[quote=""mammal""]I have some answers for you. My understanding is.....
1) Fact: it is $10,000 for almost all returning teams not $25K.
2) Opinion: the phrase ‘not taking care of players’ is insulting .
4) Teams fly one time during the season; the tournament is separate, optional- in Seattle- a city that can be gotten to for very cheap.[/quote]
Well down to 10k for returning teams is certainly a lot better than 25k. But the question still remains what does the league provide the teams worth 10k or 25k? Compared to say the EBA, UBL, and WCBL it still sounds like a cash grab by the Commish.
As for point number two... the reason you start a "not for profit" is so you can LEGALLY get around the non contact sport insurance. So I'm certainly not suggesting laws are being broken. The issue is pro leagues should DEMAND all teams insure their players in games. Tell a guy who tears up his knee that we are a not for profit team so we don't have to cover you medically.
I'm sorry it is not a insult but it is sounding more true. If players don't have non contact sport workers compensation insurance and at least make 25bucks a game how can you call that a professional league? That's rec league.
And how is it fair to the teams in the midwest to always play the championship game on the west coast? Not that many are left, but it sounds like they are getting hosed.
If these other leagues can get it done on way lower league fees (like only a couple K) how is 25k for a new team and 10k for returning teams not a cash grab? And how is not even getting the basic workers compensation insurance not unprofessional?
1) Fact: it is $10,000 for almost all returning teams not $25K.
2) Opinion: the phrase ‘not taking care of players’ is insulting .
4) Teams fly one time during the season; the tournament is separate, optional- in Seattle- a city that can be gotten to for very cheap.[/quote]
Well down to 10k for returning teams is certainly a lot better than 25k. But the question still remains what does the league provide the teams worth 10k or 25k? Compared to say the EBA, UBL, and WCBL it still sounds like a cash grab by the Commish.
As for point number two... the reason you start a "not for profit" is so you can LEGALLY get around the non contact sport insurance. So I'm certainly not suggesting laws are being broken. The issue is pro leagues should DEMAND all teams insure their players in games. Tell a guy who tears up his knee that we are a not for profit team so we don't have to cover you medically.
I'm sorry it is not a insult but it is sounding more true. If players don't have non contact sport workers compensation insurance and at least make 25bucks a game how can you call that a professional league? That's rec league.
And how is it fair to the teams in the midwest to always play the championship game on the west coast? Not that many are left, but it sounds like they are getting hosed.
If these other leagues can get it done on way lower league fees (like only a couple K) how is 25k for a new team and 10k for returning teams not a cash grab? And how is not even getting the basic workers compensation insurance not unprofessional?
[quote=""minorleagfan09""]And how is it fair to the teams in the midwest to always play the championship game on the west coast? Not that many are left, but it sounds like they are getting hosed.[/quote]
That's not exactly true. Last year's championship was the first time it was held on the West coast:
2005: Battle Creek, Michigan
2006: Elkhart, Indiana
2007: Elkhart, Indiana
2008: Bellingham, Washington
2009: TBA
That's not exactly true. Last year's championship was the first time it was held on the West coast:
2005: Battle Creek, Michigan
2006: Elkhart, Indiana
2007: Elkhart, Indiana
2008: Bellingham, Washington
2009: TBA
-
minorleagfan09
- Site Admin
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:42 am
[quote=""besl""]That's not exactly true. Last year's championship was the first time it was held on the West coast:
2005: Battle Creek, Michigan
2006: Elkhart, Indiana
2007: Elkhart, Indiana
2008: Bellingham, Washington
2009: TBA[/quote]
my understanding was there was a multi year deal for them to play it at Bellingham. More importantly its about having an honest fair way to pick a location and not about behind the scenes deals.
But that of course would be the least important issue that I've highlighted.
I'm wondering just how much the Santa Barbara Breakers saved by joining the WCBL. Now that the EBA has decided to expand to the midwest I really could see teams like Gary, Elkhart, and Elgin joining and saving a ton. No flying, no fat check to the IBL... they can actually pay players and insure them. Sounds like a novel idea.
2005: Battle Creek, Michigan
2006: Elkhart, Indiana
2007: Elkhart, Indiana
2008: Bellingham, Washington
2009: TBA[/quote]
my understanding was there was a multi year deal for them to play it at Bellingham. More importantly its about having an honest fair way to pick a location and not about behind the scenes deals.
But that of course would be the least important issue that I've highlighted.
I'm wondering just how much the Santa Barbara Breakers saved by joining the WCBL. Now that the EBA has decided to expand to the midwest I really could see teams like Gary, Elkhart, and Elgin joining and saving a ton. No flying, no fat check to the IBL... they can actually pay players and insure them. Sounds like a novel idea.
[quote=""minorleagfan09""]Well down to 10k for returning teams is certainly a lot better than 25k. But the question still remains what does the league provide the teams worth 10k or 25k? Compared to say the EBA, UBL, and WCBL it still sounds like a cash grab by the Commish.[/quote]
If you want to run a real team, $10k a year to be in a viable league is nothing. From a media perspective, the IBL communicates regularly, and the others do not. That piddly amount in yearly dues pays people, including the founder, to care and actually put time into the league. That's why there's some structure to the league. That doesn't happen by accident.
If you want to run a real team, $10k a year to be in a viable league is nothing. From a media perspective, the IBL communicates regularly, and the others do not. That piddly amount in yearly dues pays people, including the founder, to care and actually put time into the league. That's why there's some structure to the league. That doesn't happen by accident.
OurSports Central - //www.oursportscentral.com
OSC on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/oursportscentral
OSC on Twitter: http://twitter.com/osctoday
OSC on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/oursportscentral
OSC on Twitter: http://twitter.com/osctoday
-
minorleagfan09
- Site Admin
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:42 am
[quote=""preeths""]If you want to run a real team, $10k a year to be in a viable league is nothing. From a media perspective, the IBL communicates regularly, and the others do not. .[/quote]
You'll notice the original poster who answered me said for almost all returning teams. So technically I'd still question if all teams are paying $10,000 a year if they are returning.
In my estimation the WCBL gets it all done. They update news, post scores and stats, post awards, and pretty much everything you'd want as a fan. The EBA has a little work to do in that area, and the UBL is not posting full stats (and I doubt they are doing press releases).
I'd argue that the WCBL had better talent this year and posted more info on their website than the IBL. Maybe you mean the IBL pumped out more press releases... I'd believe that.
The IBL has only been a around a few years. Let's drop a few names here.
Akron Cougars
Akron Energy
Arizona Flame, Scottsdale Flame, Phoenix Flame
Arizona Lightning
Aurora Cavalry
Cedar Valley Jaguars
Chico Force
Colorado Crossover
Dayton Jets
Des Moines Heat
Detroit Pros
Edmonton Chill
Elgin Racers
Elkhart Express
Eugene Chargers
Hub City Hurricanes
Lake County Lakers
Lansing Capitals
Las Vegas Stars
Macomb County Mustangs
Mahoning Valley Wildcats
Marysville Meteors
Portlond Chinooks
Oakland Slammers
Salem Stampede
Stanta Barbara Breakers (moved to WCBL)
Saskatoon Prairie Wolves
Tacoma Jazz
Tacoma Jets
Tri Valley Titans
Vancouver Volcanos
Washington Raptors (left for ABA)
West Coast Highflyers
West Virginia Wild
Now mind you these are just the failed (or a couple of moved) franchises since just 2005. Kind of an ABA trend here. 33 teams times 25k (their first year dues ONLY) equals 825k. This minor league Commish (who owns some teams in the league himself) has made $825,000 in first year dues alone (and I'd bet if he lowered it to 10k that is pretty recent) in failed teams (and a couple that switched leagues). When you really look at it he's made millions in a few short years on league dues. But he pumps out those PRs.
So he pumps out some press releases. This is something the regional exposure leagues can learn to do... using those involved in the league who have some writing skills.
The fact remains that many teams don't/can't pay players, they don't house them, and most importantly some teams aren't protecting players with just the basic level of insurance. All vital facts being ignored by IBL spin docters... which is exactly what posters like Mammal are. There is no doubt in my mind that they are associated with the IBL. Because if he/she was say legit media... not having players insured at all would be something he/she would actually report.
There are a couple of teams that make it every year in the ABA yet if you join the league posters here will make fun of you and give you crap (which they should). I'm just wondering if they should do it to those who join the IBL over the EBA or WCBL (or UBL)?
We have a millionaire league commissioner who owns his own teams in the league and on his website focuses on how minor league basketball isn't profitable... and why players should be willing to play for free just for exposure.
Maybe minor league basketball not being profitable has more to it than just the economy. Maybe this commissioner has something to do with why 33 teams couldn't make it since 2005?
If minor league basketball isn't profitable, and players shouldn't make money, and players shouldn't be insured, and teams should travel across the country... why should the league Commissioner Mikal Duilio make millions off this failed system?
Maybe team owners should wise up like everyone tells them they should about the ABA?
You'll notice the original poster who answered me said for almost all returning teams. So technically I'd still question if all teams are paying $10,000 a year if they are returning.
In my estimation the WCBL gets it all done. They update news, post scores and stats, post awards, and pretty much everything you'd want as a fan. The EBA has a little work to do in that area, and the UBL is not posting full stats (and I doubt they are doing press releases).
I'd argue that the WCBL had better talent this year and posted more info on their website than the IBL. Maybe you mean the IBL pumped out more press releases... I'd believe that.
The IBL has only been a around a few years. Let's drop a few names here.
Akron Cougars
Akron Energy
Arizona Flame, Scottsdale Flame, Phoenix Flame
Arizona Lightning
Aurora Cavalry
Cedar Valley Jaguars
Chico Force
Colorado Crossover
Dayton Jets
Des Moines Heat
Detroit Pros
Edmonton Chill
Elgin Racers
Elkhart Express
Eugene Chargers
Hub City Hurricanes
Lake County Lakers
Lansing Capitals
Las Vegas Stars
Macomb County Mustangs
Mahoning Valley Wildcats
Marysville Meteors
Portlond Chinooks
Oakland Slammers
Salem Stampede
Stanta Barbara Breakers (moved to WCBL)
Saskatoon Prairie Wolves
Tacoma Jazz
Tacoma Jets
Tri Valley Titans
Vancouver Volcanos
Washington Raptors (left for ABA)
West Coast Highflyers
West Virginia Wild
Now mind you these are just the failed (or a couple of moved) franchises since just 2005. Kind of an ABA trend here. 33 teams times 25k (their first year dues ONLY) equals 825k. This minor league Commish (who owns some teams in the league himself) has made $825,000 in first year dues alone (and I'd bet if he lowered it to 10k that is pretty recent) in failed teams (and a couple that switched leagues). When you really look at it he's made millions in a few short years on league dues. But he pumps out those PRs.
So he pumps out some press releases. This is something the regional exposure leagues can learn to do... using those involved in the league who have some writing skills.
The fact remains that many teams don't/can't pay players, they don't house them, and most importantly some teams aren't protecting players with just the basic level of insurance. All vital facts being ignored by IBL spin docters... which is exactly what posters like Mammal are. There is no doubt in my mind that they are associated with the IBL. Because if he/she was say legit media... not having players insured at all would be something he/she would actually report.
There are a couple of teams that make it every year in the ABA yet if you join the league posters here will make fun of you and give you crap (which they should). I'm just wondering if they should do it to those who join the IBL over the EBA or WCBL (or UBL)?
We have a millionaire league commissioner who owns his own teams in the league and on his website focuses on how minor league basketball isn't profitable... and why players should be willing to play for free just for exposure.
Maybe minor league basketball not being profitable has more to it than just the economy. Maybe this commissioner has something to do with why 33 teams couldn't make it since 2005?
If minor league basketball isn't profitable, and players shouldn't make money, and players shouldn't be insured, and teams should travel across the country... why should the league Commissioner Mikal Duilio make millions off this failed system?
Maybe team owners should wise up like everyone tells them they should about the ABA?
The IBL still requires player insurance for all teams- even non-profit teams; however, with non-profit teams, it is not called workmens compensation insurance in that case, it is simply called player insurance.
What makes the league professional is the organization, attention to detail and in recent years- the level of play; in fact, the IBL believes it has the highest level of play outside of the NBA (not due to our pay but due to the proximity of teams near large cities and the time of year we play- May/June when the overseas guys come back; in fact, Vancouver Volcanoes had 9 division 1 European and/or NBDL players on their team- the level of play is professional)
What makes the league professional is the organization, attention to detail and in recent years- the level of play; in fact, the IBL believes it has the highest level of play outside of the NBA (not due to our pay but due to the proximity of teams near large cities and the time of year we play- May/June when the overseas guys come back; in fact, Vancouver Volcanoes had 9 division 1 European and/or NBDL players on their team- the level of play is professional)
-
Ken, Steelheads fan
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2415
- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:59 pm
- Location: Gary, Indiana. Otherwise, known as G.I.
- Contact:
But were the owners of most of the listed failed franchises READY to be owners?
[quote=""minorleagfan09""]I'm going to sound like a prick, but for IBL folks I'd like to ask a few questions. To my knowledge the yearly dues to keep your team in the league is around $25,000. Plus you have to fly the entire team on one trip. Plus if you are from the midwest and you want to play in the championship you have to fly again to the northwest each year.
A regional league might pay refs 50 bucks a game. Most companies are willing to work an awesome deal out with teams for jerseys. And most basketball makers will do the same for game balls. If you are a successful business person you should be able to come up with your own sponsorship packages and know how to write and release a good PR.
Plus I'm seeing teams like Holland aren't paying or housing their players.
The ABA gets a lot of crap and they deserve it all. But I do honestly wonder if the IBL is getting a huge pass here just because they aren't quite as dysfunctional and do play their games.
If owners are losing money and players aren't getting taken care of why should the league get a pass?
I guess I just need to be convinced the IBL is a good value for team owners (especially in the midwest) and is fair to players. I noticed some teams are classified as not for profit. And in doing that they can get away with not paying and covering their players with non contact sport workers compensation insurance.
Any thoughts?[/quote]
Well, geez! If you're going to put it this way, then what value do you get from any of the leagues...including a league like the PBL that pays for travel??? Great value on the surface can lead to a loss of self-determination below the surface. Battle Creek found that out the hard way.
Paul Reeths put it quite well in his previous post. The IBL's annual fee is a small amount to pay (in the grand scheme of things) for organization and structure. Gary had problems last year in the IBL, but the problems were entirely on the homefront and were not league related. Simple things weren't done in Gary, like asking season ticket holders to renew season tickets...or advertise the All*Star game that was held in Gary.
A regional league might pay refs 50 bucks a game. Most companies are willing to work an awesome deal out with teams for jerseys. And most basketball makers will do the same for game balls. If you are a successful business person you should be able to come up with your own sponsorship packages and know how to write and release a good PR.
Plus I'm seeing teams like Holland aren't paying or housing their players.
The ABA gets a lot of crap and they deserve it all. But I do honestly wonder if the IBL is getting a huge pass here just because they aren't quite as dysfunctional and do play their games.
If owners are losing money and players aren't getting taken care of why should the league get a pass?
I guess I just need to be convinced the IBL is a good value for team owners (especially in the midwest) and is fair to players. I noticed some teams are classified as not for profit. And in doing that they can get away with not paying and covering their players with non contact sport workers compensation insurance.
Any thoughts?[/quote]
Well, geez! If you're going to put it this way, then what value do you get from any of the leagues...including a league like the PBL that pays for travel??? Great value on the surface can lead to a loss of self-determination below the surface. Battle Creek found that out the hard way.
Paul Reeths put it quite well in his previous post. The IBL's annual fee is a small amount to pay (in the grand scheme of things) for organization and structure. Gary had problems last year in the IBL, but the problems were entirely on the homefront and were not league related. Simple things weren't done in Gary, like asking season ticket holders to renew season tickets...or advertise the All*Star game that was held in Gary.
Below is a response from Commissioner Duilio regarding the posts from minorleagefan09, not Ken.
From the Commissioner- 'those figures are not even close and those words are very inaccurate, very untrue- very much so'
Yes, I (Mammal) am involved with the IBL. I like to come on various message boards and clean up inaccurate statements and defend the league. If someone doesn't like the IBL, that's fine, just don't make false statements about the league.
From the Commissioner- 'those figures are not even close and those words are very inaccurate, very untrue- very much so'
Yes, I (Mammal) am involved with the IBL. I like to come on various message boards and clean up inaccurate statements and defend the league. If someone doesn't like the IBL, that's fine, just don't make false statements about the league.
