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sonnie20
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Post by sonnie20 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:30 pm

Zeke good luck , In Battle Creek we were also low budget and we had a High School dance team as well and things were ran professionaly here and Kellogg arena is a good place to play. But just beware they own the league and have no problems changing the rules to suit themselfs. Their recent behavior speaks for itself but I wish you well and will never be a PBL.fan. This is a league that will take their ball and simply go home if they don't get their way or kick you out for questioning them.

minorleagfan09
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Post by minorleagfan09 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:31 pm

[quote=""zeke41""]You have to plan to take a loss the first 3-4 years with any business. The trick is to minimize the loss you take.[/quote]

It depends on the industry. There are plenty of people in the service industry who have started their own business and broke even or made a profit their first year. I've never been in the red... so no not every business takes a loss year one. The vast majority will of course... actually the vast majority fail so your premise is pretty solid.

Wouldn't a 20k budget in the WBA help minimize your loss years one, two and three? Actually you'd have a shot at break even from year one.

Why not prove you can make it in a league like that.... then move "up" (I say that with a chuckle) to the PBL?

And I'm not asking this to try and crush your dream or be condescending. I don't believe I could turn a profit in the PBL myself. So I'm not puting you down.

DazedAndAmused
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Post by DazedAndAmused » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:44 pm

[quote=""minorleagfan09""] I don't believe I could turn a profit in the PBL myself. So I'm not puting you down.[/quote]

I don't believe a profit can be made in any basketball minor league in the US these days. You certainly could lose less in the leagues you are promoting, but you have to face quality perceptions that will limit growth opportunities further. If you have a 20k budget, that will probably buy you 10k in revenues.

minorleagfan09
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Post by minorleagfan09 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:59 pm

[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]I don't believe a profit can be made in any basketball minor league in the US these days. You certainly could lose less in the leagues you are promoting, but you have to face quality perceptions that will limit growth opportunities further. If you have a 20k budget, that will probably buy you 10k in revenues.[/quote]

6 home games, 250 fans, 6 bucks a ticket. 9000
concessions (profit) $1500- $2000

So to break even you need sponsors on board. I've seen teams draw as little as 50 fans a game and teams that could draw 2500 (elkhart). So if you can average 500 fans you can break even. If you are coming in less than that you need to sell sponsorships.

But even if you do make a couple grand a year... you are still investing a ton of time in this... so its still a hobby IMO.

And I think its wrong for owners to get all caught up in joining the PBL because it is "legit". I guarantee you the Santa Barbara Breakers got more media coverage than a lot of PBL teams... and would beat a lot of PBL teams.

psbf
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Post by psbf » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:26 pm

I appreciate that, Zeke! It just seems to me that you are being totally optimistic with no room for error, instead of covering all avenues(positive and negative), which I feel is safer.

DazedAndAmused
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Post by DazedAndAmused » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:21 am

[quote=""minorleagfan09""]6 home games, 250 fans, 6 bucks a ticket. 9000
concessions (profit) $1500- $2000

So to break even you need sponsors on board. I've seen teams draw as little as 50 fans a game and teams that could draw 2500 (elkhart). So if you can average 500 fans you can break even. If you are coming in less than that you need to sell sponsorships.

But even if you do make a couple grand a year... you are still investing a ton of time in this... so its still a hobby IMO.

And I think its wrong for owners to get all caught up in joining the PBL because it is "legit". I guarantee you the Santa Barbara Breakers got more media coverage than a lot of PBL teams... and would beat a lot of PBL teams.[/quote]

I don't think the PBL, IBL, CBA (certainly not the ABA) are the be all end alls in this game...far from it. And, your numbers for ticket/concession revenue for 6 games in an A league may be close, even if a touch optimistic. (Note there have been IBL, PBL, and CBA games in recent years with 250 or less in attendance.) The sponsors right now today are bit of a tougher nut to crack and where the "perceived" quality of the product (that only is partially related to talent) really comes into play. I'll stick with my generalization (allowance for an exception or two of course) that whatever you spend these days, with marketing efforts relative to the overall budget the same, you'll probably bring in 1/2 of that in revenues. (I have lots of examples to support this.) So, figure out what your hobby is worth to you first, then pick a league!

kahunakats
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Post by kahunakats » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:55 am

This is a budget for a 24-game season with some overnight travel required. Some of it is negotiable, some can be traded out, some is too high or too low depending on the region of the country. But it does give you an idea as to what is required to do it somewhat right and at a somewhat higher level. My own personal feeling is that if you can't swing this kind of a budget, you're a rec league team owner rather than someone who is trying to run a real business.

GAS & VAN RENTAL PER TRIP (2 VANS) $700
MOTEL PER TRIP (6 ROOMS) $300
MEAL MONEY ($40 X 12) $480
6 ROAD TRIPS TOTAL $8,880

GAS & VAN RENTAL (2 VANS) $400
MEAL MONEY ($20 X 12) $240
6 ROAD TRIPS TOTAL $3,840

UNIFORMS & WARM-UPS (15 SETS) $2,700
LIABILITY INSURANCE (SADLER & CO.) 176 ($100,000/2,000,000)
CAMP AND CLINIC INSURANCE 308 (75 CAMPERS/3 CLINICS)
INCORPORATION (LLC) 299 (IN DELAWARE)
LEAGUE DUES & FRANCHISE FEE 2,500
STATIONARY, BIZ CARDS & MAILBOX 250
SEASON TICKETS (300) 110
GENERAL ADMISSION TICKETS (10,000) 410
ARENA RENT ($250/GAME) 3,000
OFFICIALS (3 @ $70 EACH) 2,520
ATHLETIC TAPE 1,430
MEDICAL SUPPLIES 480
VIDEO EQUIPMENT & TAPES (300) NEGOTIABLE + $350
BALLS ( 8) & BALL RACK 400
TOWELS & LAUNDRY COSTS 275
CHEERLEADER UNIFORMS (6 @ $125/EA) 750
COACH SALARIES (1) 1,500
PLAYER STIPENDS ($50/EA) 13,200
POST-GAME HOME MEALS ($75 EA) 900
GAME PROMOTIONS (12 @ $250 EA) 3,000
GAME DAY STAFF (5 @ $25/EA) 1,500
TELEPHONE BILL 400
PRACTICE FACILITY RENT NEGOTIABLE
MEDICAL COVERAGE FOR PLAYERS 1,440 (4 MONTHS OF ER INSURANCE)


TOTAL $50,618

minorleagfan09
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Post by minorleagfan09 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:30 am

[quote=""kahunakats""]This is a budget for a 24-game season with some overnight travel required. Some of it is negotiable, some can be traded out, some is too high or too low depending on the region of the country. But it does give you an idea as to what is required to do it somewhat right and at a somewhat higher level. My own personal feeling is that if you can't swing this kind of a budget, you're a rec league team owner rather than someone who is trying to run a real business.

GAS & VAN RENTAL PER TRIP (2 VANS) $700
MOTEL PER TRIP (6 ROOMS) $300
MEAL MONEY ($40 X 12) $480
6 ROAD TRIPS TOTAL $8,880

GAS & VAN RENTAL (2 VANS) $400
MEAL MONEY ($20 X 12) $240
6 ROAD TRIPS TOTAL $3,840

UNIFORMS & WARM-UPS (15 SETS) $2,700
LIABILITY INSURANCE (SADLER & CO.) 176 ($100,000/2,000,000)
CAMP AND CLINIC INSURANCE 308 (75 CAMPERS/3 CLINICS)
INCORPORATION (LLC) 299 (IN DELAWARE)
LEAGUE DUES & FRANCHISE FEE 2,500
STATIONARY, BIZ CARDS & MAILBOX 250
SEASON TICKETS (300) 110
GENERAL ADMISSION TICKETS (10,000) 410
ARENA RENT ($250/GAME) 3,000
OFFICIALS (3 @ $70 EACH) 2,520
ATHLETIC TAPE 1,430
MEDICAL SUPPLIES 480
VIDEO EQUIPMENT & TAPES (300) NEGOTIABLE + $350
BALLS ( 8) & BALL RACK 400
TOWELS & LAUNDRY COSTS 275
CHEERLEADER UNIFORMS (6 @ $125/EA) 750
COACH SALARIES (1) 1,500
PLAYER STIPENDS ($50/EA) 13,200
POST-GAME HOME MEALS ($75 EA) 900
GAME PROMOTIONS (12 @ $250 EA) 3,000
GAME DAY STAFF (5 @ $25/EA) 1,500
TELEPHONE BILL 400
PRACTICE FACILITY RENT NEGOTIABLE
MEDICAL COVERAGE FOR PLAYERS 1,440 (4 MONTHS OF ER INSURANCE)


TOTAL $50,618[/quote]

Here are some ways you can hack that budget. First you play a shorter exposure league schedule. 2nd you play in a close enough cluster so you don't stay overnight in motels. The teams that do things smart trade sponsorship for things they need. The IBL's uniforms (reversible) cost half as much as the number above. In the right league you can work that number down to 20k. If you the owner/gm have a cell phone... no need for a phone bill. If you have 6 homes games it is more of an event and its easier to fill gyms than with a 12 home game schedule (of course that will vary by market).

kahunakats
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Post by kahunakats » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:54 am

I agree with you. The EBA charges first-year teams $2,500 to get into the league and they play 12 games-6 or so at home and the rest on the road. If you are near their major cities, you can do this for $20,000. If you're in the IBL, the franchise fee shoots up to over $20,000 and you end up with budgets like this. The EBA has actually, in my opinion, set the standard for low-level basketball leagues with their game-plan. Oh, and for that $2,500 fee the league directors actually show up at your city, check out your venue and meet the principles before allowing you into their league. Gee, due diligence-who would have guessed at this level. I have spoken to the directors several times in Harrisburg and have always been impressed with how they run a low-level league. And it appears with their signing of Dennis Rodman as a guest coach and a prelim game at the Gardens they are moving up the ladder of credibility. My point on the budget is that so often people forget the costs of towels, insurance, incorporation and all the other small things that add up into the thousands and eventually blind-side an owner who forgot that these things exist when running a sports franchise.

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wellington
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Post by wellington » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:15 pm

This is an interesting discussion. Regarding Zeke, love him or loathe him, but as Ali G would say you've gotta give him 'much respek.' I believe that he is really building something quite unique in Orlando with the Flight. It's cool that he is giving us all an inside look into how he is constructing his team/organization (it's almost like a reality tv show). Some may say that he should be more tight lipped, but I think it is a refreshing approach. Too many owners are too standoffish and fail to connect with the fans. I don't think Zeke will have that problem (this will bode well for him as he continues to build the team piece by piece).

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