The CBA - gone but not forgotten

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DazedAndAmused
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Post by DazedAndAmused » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:33 am

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Ahhhhh, something I can finally agree with...almost word for word. However, your use of the word hobby in many other posts makes me want to barf. The sport must be threated like a business at all times or we're going to continue to have teams like the CBA Alley Cats and the PBL Throwbacks. There's nothing wrong with business people enjoying the businesses they're in though. The businesses they're in.[/quote]

More than ever you have shown that you really don't understand or acknowledge the business as it exists today. Let me take it a step further.

From your posts I can tell that you have never had to pay your mortgage from profits earned in minor league basketball. (You may have had a job where you were paid by someone who was losing money in the business until they didn't feel like losing it anymore, but that's different.) Actually, I can make that assessment without reading your posts because nobody is making money in this business. Most are losing significantly, even the medium budget teams.

Now, should you apply sound business principles to reduce the bleeding and maximize your fan base? Absolutely. I never said you shouldn't. Treating it like a business and understanding that it is a losing venture aren't the same thing.

My point is that experienced and realistic investors (who expect to make money) don't put money into minor league basketball. Hobbyists do because they enjoy it until it costs too much to enjoy it anymore. I wish you could provide me some example of a profitable minor league basketball business, but you can't. (Really though, if you can, please share, even by PM.)

The big dose of reality my friend is what is making you barf! I truly am sorry if you or anyone feel burned because of losing a job from a team that doesn't exist any more, but you/they were basically part of someone else's hobby, not a venture with profit making ability.

The numbers simply have not and do not add up. So, if you like minor league ball, give your local hobbyist a hug. :)

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Ken, Steelheads fan
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Maybe that's why so many franchises fail. They are run by hobbyist.

Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:18 am

[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]More than ever you have shown that you really don't understand or acknowledge the business as it exists today. Let me take it a step further.

From your posts I can tell that you have never had to pay your mortgage from profits earned in minor league basketball. (You may have had a job where you were paid by someone who was losing money in the business until they didn't feel like losing it anymore, but that's different.) Actually, I can make that assessment without reading your posts because nobody is making money in this business. Most are losing significantly, even the medium budget teams.

Now, should you apply sound business principles to reduce the bleeding and maximize your fan base? Absolutely. I never said you shouldn't. Treating it like a business and understanding that it is a losing venture aren't the same thing.

My point is that experienced and realistic investors (who expect to make money) don't put money into minor league basketball. Hobbyists do because they enjoy it until it costs too much to enjoy it anymore. I wish you could provide me some example of a profitable minor league basketball business, but you can't. (Really though, if you can, please share, even by PM.)

The big dose of reality my friend is what is making you barf! I truly am sorry if you or anyone feel burned because of losing a job from a team that doesn't exist any more, but you/they were basically part of someone else's hobby, not a venture with profit making ability.

The numbers simply have not and do not add up. So, if you like minor league ball, give your local hobbyist a hug. :) [/quote]

Are you on THAT again??? Ohhhhhh, please cut that stuff out about me drawing a salary from some minor league team and now I'm burned. Cut out the innuendos about me being an agent for a PBL rival league too while you're at it. Now you're claiming I don't understand the business as it exists today...I'm soooooo stupid...and not only am I stupid, but I'm a disinformation operative for the spring/summer cartels as well. Geez! You are soooooooo off base and you always have been off with that stuff.

The Sioux Falls Skyforce are profitable. No need to PM that information. It should be no secret. They don't share their books with me, but their profitability is a reasonable assumption. They've consistently averaged crowds of 3000 plus throughout their long history...and of course, they know the importance of providing suites for their fans.
Last edited by Ken, Steelheads fan on Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

DazedAndAmused
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Post by DazedAndAmused » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:36 am

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""] They don't share their books with me, but their profitability is a reasonable assumption. [/quote]

Actually, that's no where near a reasonable assumption without some real facts and numbers or knowledge of their operation. You admit you have none.

I find it comical that you seem to protest not having some agenda, whether it be an agent of another league or having some sort of a1-like mission against the PBL.

Either way, good luck with that.

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Post by DazedAndAmused » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:37 am

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]...I'm soooooo stupid..[/quote]

ok, if you say so.

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I never drank the PBL Kool-Aid, that's all.

Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:08 am

[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]Actually, that's no where near a reasonable assumption without some real facts and numbers or knowledge of their operation. You admit you have none. [/quote]

At some point common sense HAS to kick-in. The Sioux Falls Skyforce CAN'T possibly exist...what is it??? Well over a decade now being UNprofitable??? The airlines can't do it. The auto industry can't do it. Donald Trump sure as hell can't operate for a decade without making a profit. It's a reasonable assumption that the Skyforce have been profitable over the course of their pre-Isiah Thomas years until now of continuous operation.

You don't find that reasonable?
Last edited by Ken, Steelheads fan on Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: had to get the timeline straight

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Post by minorleagfan09 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:52 pm

^^^^ well the Skyforce are run by a business group that also runs hotels and other franchises in SF so technically they could have run the past 10 years an been unprofitable. I personally have no inside knowledge if they are making any money or even breaking even. But I'd bet them and the Wizards are the only ones that are sustainable long term.

You'll find a very (VERY FEW) IBL teams that can justify breakeven. Other than that maybe a few exposure league teams in various leagues can do it.

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Recognizing Minor League Basketball for What It Is

Post by DazedAndAmused » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:18 pm

[quote=""minorleagfan09""]^^^^ well the Skyforce are run by a business group that also runs hotels and other franchises in SF so technically they could have run the past 10 years an been unprofitable. I personally have no inside knowledge if they are making any money or even breaking even. But I'd bet them and the Wizards are the only ones that are sustainable long term.

You'll find a very (VERY FEW) IBL teams that can justify breakeven. Other than that maybe a few exposure league teams in various leagues can do it.[/quote]

Great point, and one I should have worked in earlier on this thread. With few exceptions these days in minor league basketball, those (legitimate) teams with any sort of longevity are backed by partners that have other profitable business ventures that fund their otherwise money-losing basketball hobby/adventure. The best case scenario is that the basketball organization can provide some marketing value to the core business. That value is typically hard to quantify and generally doesn't appear on any balance sheet. Recognizing minor league ball this way I think is really its only real future. It's best hope is to serve as a marketing cost center for some other local business. I would advise no one to get into minor league basketball as a stand-alone investment or as a core business. Those that try continue to lose.

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Post by minorleagfan09 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:13 pm

[quote=""DazedAndAmused""] I would advise no one to get into minor league basketball as a stand-alone investment or as a core business. Those that try continue to lose.[/quote]

I think the advice you are trying to give is solid in that you don't want someone clueless to throw down 10k to get into ABA. And generally the league fees and travel in the PBL and IBL make both leagues a bad investment.

However I can see a few situations I'd differ from your advice. If some professional who happened to work for some company wanted to start his own team in say the EBA... I'd say go for it. As long has he understands how to keep his expenses down and he gets some sales reps to push some small sponsorship packages to go along with ticket sales and concessions... then that guy could very well make it work.

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Post by DazedAndAmused » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:19 pm

[quote=""minorleagfan09""]I think the advice you are trying to give is solid in that you don't want someone clueless to throw down 10k to get into ABA. And generally the league fees and travel in the PBL and IBL make both leagues a bad investment.

However I can see a few situations I'd differ from your advice. If some professional who happened to work for some company wanted to start his own team in say the EBA... I'd say go for it. As long has he understands how to keep his expenses down and he gets some sales reps to push some small sponsorship packages to go along with ticket sales and concessions... then that guy could very well make it work.[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don't know of any example that can support that at this point. (I wish it weren't the case.)

The basic math that you're up against (particularly in this economy) is that you have to spend a dollar to make fifty cents. So, you might spend 20 grand in the EBA in operations but make only 10 grand. You spend $1M in the Dleague in operations to make $500k. The math holds up with most budgets. Some can do a little better. Some do worse.

If "making it work" means losing less, then yes I agree.

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Post by zeke41 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:15 pm

These are all valid points, and, D&A, it's hard to argue your reference, especially when this seems to be the case for all minor league owners.

IMO - it's a matter of patience and intelligence (and that might even need to be chalked up to a guessing game). It's so easy, when you are excited about a new venture, to want it to be presented at a certain level. For instance, most teams go out and get a dance team together (or at least try) in the first year. For many, this is a priority. But is it? Not necessarily.

From what I've seen, I think most owners who get in this business have their priorities mixed up, and/or don't understand what they need and confuse that list with what looks good. It looks good to have a dance team, a high-priced, highly regarded athlete or two for name exposure, a big, professional 5-10K seat venue, etc.

Mind you, it's important to present a good product, and to create a professional image straight out of the gate. I just think owners need to pull back the reigns a bit and let the venture grow with time. You can't be the Razorsharks overnight. This is the approach we are taking. Slow progression toward the launch date...getting involved in the community right away, creating some value by doing so at no cost, just the regular sweat from the brow of a few volunteers doing projects that your every day person should take time to be involved in anyway...Proving our value as a business before playing a single game...brainstorming ways to be self-sufficient regardless of what league we are in, through marketable items to sell.

Just my thoughts. I'm excited, and I think I have a good perspective to launch this venture, and I have found that it hasn't been too difficult to get my foot in the door with perspective businesses to request sponsorship dollars, with PLENTY of time to confront the board/corporate marketing team/whomever they need to for the 2011 season, which is more than a year away! I think this last part??? It SUPER key...sponsors need time to get proposals to the right people for review and, hopefully, approval!
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