East Kentucky Miners updates?

The Continental Basketball Association (CBA) forum
User avatar
preeths
Site Admin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:34 pm
Contact:

Post by preeths » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:36 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]I've always found this quote quite disturbing because when people stop paying their bills and start stiffing people, then it is because they have run out of money. It isn't because they rather move to another league. I would take what the Miners' source said with a grain of salt. This organization is out of money. Former and present major league athletes don't want to lose money any more than anyone else. Maybe they want to lose money even less than others because an athlete's career is so uncertain.[/quote]

The organization is out of money. That's quite obvious and has been for some time. Mr. Shuler is not. He could have, and according to the Miners' source, would have continued funding the organization had it moved to the PBL. It's really quite simple. He thought he was throwing good money after bad by paying to support a team in the dying CBA

User avatar
Ken, Steelheads fan
Site Admin
Posts: 2415
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:59 pm
Location: Gary, Indiana. Otherwise, known as G.I.
Contact:

Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:37 pm

Whether intended or not, the impression is given that it is fine to avoid financial responsibilities (stiff vendors and players) if someone is not satisfied with their league situation. That is what I find so disturbing.

This gentlemen is helping to fund an organization and is thus part of the organization. Okay, fine. He wants to pull the plug because the franchise isn't going in the direction he wants. He still needs to meet his financial obligations if the money is there as you or your source claims.
Last edited by Ken, Steelheads fan on Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: added the second paragraph.

LightningMan
Site Admin
Posts: 2017
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:35 pm
Location: Wilmington, NC

Post by LightningMan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:56 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Whether intended or not, the impression is given that it is fine to avoid financial responsibilities (stiff vendors and players) if someone is not satisfied with their league situation. That is what I find so disturbing.

This gentlemen is helping to fund an organization and is thus part of the organization. Okay, fine. He wants to pull the plug because the franchise isn't going in the direction he wants. He still needs to meet his financial obligations if the money is there as you or your source claims.[/quote]
If you continue to make bills after your source of funding dries up, then it is your responsibility to pay and not that of your source of funding.

basketball facts
Site Admin
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:17 pm

Post by basketball facts » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:58 pm

It was a hobby for the quaterback. When things did not go well for him he pouted and took his ball and went home. Never looked in the mirror and said, "how can I run this better?" Now he is trying to be a pro volleyball player all the while stiffing the players and sponsors in Kentucky. Spoiled athlete. I laugh at all the old posts by kentucky fans who proudly stated how great their franchise was being run. Smoke and mirrors all the while robbing Peter to pay Paul.

User avatar
preeths
Site Admin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:34 pm
Contact:

Post by preeths » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:38 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Whether intended or not, the impression is given that it is fine to avoid financial responsibilities (stiff vendors and players) if someone is not satisfied with their league situation. That is what I find so disturbing.

This gentlemen is helping to fund an organization and is thus part of the organization. Okay, fine. He wants to pull the plug because the franchise isn't going in the direction he wants. He still needs to meet his financial obligations if the money is there as you or your source claims.[/quote]

The fact remains, whether he's a part of the organization or not, he is not the organization by himself. That was the point of my post, not that it is okay to stiff vendors and players. I'm not sure how an honest reading of the post could come to that conclusion.

User avatar
preeths
Site Admin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:34 pm
Contact:

Post by preeths » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:47 pm

[quote=""LightningMan""]If you continue to make bills after your source of funding dries up, then it is your responsibility to pay and not that of your source of funding.[/quote]

That's part of what we don't know, when and how completely did Shuler walk away. Remember, all this happened before the season, most likely before the team ran up the vast majority of its bills. You're right, if he told the organization that it wasn't getting another dime from him, and the decision was made to play anyway, the fault may lie elsewhere. Or it may not. That's just speculation, we don't know what he did so it does no good for us to talk in absolutes simply because this guy had the audacity to think that the PBL might have been a better option.

Legally, there is often a difference between the business and the owners of said business, depending upon what structure the business takes and how closely its owners follow the rules. A business can end up owing money, but the owners may have no legal responsibility to pay those debts. Believe me, I know that isn't always ideal. I've been on the wrong side of that arrangement more than once.

User avatar
Ken, Steelheads fan
Site Admin
Posts: 2415
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:59 pm
Location: Gary, Indiana. Otherwise, known as G.I.
Contact:

Fiedler, right?

Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:04 pm

[quote=""preeths""]The fact remains, whether he's a part of the organization or not, he is not the organization by himself. That was the point of my post, not that it is okay to stiff vendors and players. I'm not sure how an honest reading of the post could come to that conclusion.[/quote]

I can read between the lines though. PBL good, CBA/ABA collaboration bad.

Am I missing something here?!? I'm assuming you have been misspeaking by saying Shuler instead of Jay Fiedler. If so, then Jay Fiedler is 50% of Trinity. There's only the two guys--Jay and Demetrius Ford. I'll even argue that Jay Fiedler is in reality 100% of Trinity's bank and Demetrius is there to help with the decision-making process. To suggest that the fault for unpaid bills may lie elsewhere (as you did in the post above) is to suggest that Demetrius Ford went rogue. That's unreasonable, IMO. That's how I reached my conclusion. Reason seems to be thrown out of the window when it comes to the PBL...and make no mistake. This is about the PBL. If Jay Fiedler (or this person Shuler) said they would only continue to fund their team if they switched to the ABA, instead of the PBL, you would have been critical of this action. I've followed your postings for years and I'm certain of this. Demetrius Ford didn't go rogue. The following article and quote suggests Jay Fiedler was quite active during the season regarding operations of the team:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/sport ... 09cba.html
Jay Fiedler, a former N.F.L. quarterback who is the owner of the East Kentucky Miners, said his team reluctantly beat one inept A.B.A. team by 102 points in the fall...


...But by February, Fiedler’s Miners were hemorrhaging cash and in danger of closing operations, so the schedule was suspended and the finals began.

“I don’t think it was necessarily because of us,” Fiedler said, adding, “We felt it was a good thing to end some of the bleeding and focus on a long-term approach to save the league.”
...and this, from the post above.

[quote=""preeths""]Legally, there is often a difference between the business and the owners of said business, depending upon what structure the business takes and how closely its owners follow the rules. A business can end up owing money, but the owners may have no legal responsibility to pay those debts. Believe me, I know that isn't always ideal. I've been on the wrong side of that arrangement more than once.[/quote]

That's quite true if you're dealing with a corporation. The corporation owes the debt, not the individual. Fiedler betrayed a confidence though and shouldn't use a loophole in the law to burn those people. On the other hand, when will towns and communities learn NOT to put so much faith in out-of-towners??? When will they learn NOT to be so star-struck???
Last edited by Ken, Steelheads fan on Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:08 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Reason: Added the last two quotes and commentary

bectond
Site Admin
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:58 pm

Post by bectond » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:39 am

Looking back the whole CBA Mexico thing is kind of funny now. Did Jesse Palmer like that idea and decided the PBW was the only option after the space cadet failed to field an expansion team in Turks? If he wanted to join the PBR so badly why close up shop now? What is stopping Stoney Case from joining the PBG now that the CBA is a footnote? I'm not buying the PBJ rumor either.
Last edited by bectond on Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Basketball Junkie and Rummikub Champion

runninref
Site Admin
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:59 pm
Location: florida

Post by runninref » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:06 am

This is all pBS! Pay your bills ... simple! Do not hide behind the corporate loopholes as it is just simply not the right thing to do. Be it Fiedler, Schuler, or a corporation, man up and make good on your debt. :mrgreen:
Last edited by runninref on Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
preeths
Site Admin
Posts: 8457
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:34 pm
Contact:

Post by preeths » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:50 am

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]I can read between the lines though. PBL good, CBA/ABA collaboration bad.[/quote]

You seriously have to be kidding me. Your complete and total bias against the PBL is blinding you from seeing that other than the statement that according to a source in the organization Fiedler (yup, wrong former NFL QB) wanted the Miners to go to the PBL, this has nothing at all to do with the PBL. I am not saying it is good, bad or indifferent, and my Miners source didn't know all that much about it. If this was indeed Fiedler's position, and I have heard from another person within the CBA that it was, I can see someone arguing only that he saw that the PBL was more stable than the CBA or ABA. Who didn't see that? With all but one league's season complete, history has already shown it. The fact of the matter is that the ABA and CBA were bad last year. The PBL was better. That's what Shuler allegedly saw happening. No reading between the lines required. This is not about the PBL.

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Am I missing something here?!? I'm assuming you have been misspeaking by saying Shuler instead of Jay Fiedler. If so, then Jay Fiedler is 50% of Trinity. There's only the two guys--Jay and Demetrius Ford. I'll even argue that Jay Fiedler is in reality 100% of Trinity's bank and Demetrius is there to help with the decision-making process.[/quote]

You don't have enough information to go on. Minority owners most likely would not be listed. You don't know the ownership percentages of any of Trinity's owners, yet you're not letting that stop you from jumping to conclusions. Fiedler was the money behind Trinity, or at least behind it when they were running the Miners. He is not obligated to continue to pour personal money into a losing venture, but then the organization, including Fiedler and Ford, would have to make a call as to whether to continue the operation. Fiedler may have been part of making that bad call.

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]To suggest that the fault for unpaid bills may lie elsewhere (as you did in the post above) is to suggest that Demetrius Ford went rogue. That's unreasonable, IMO. That's how I reached my conclusion. [/quote]

That's not the suggestion. Fiedler may indeed share in the fault. The organization, with or without Fiedler's agreement, decided to forge ahead. I don't know if Fiedler wanted to or not. I don't know if Ford wanted to or not, but either way it is clear that the Miners had to sink or swim on their own. I was told rent concessions were coming later in the season, and perhaps they felt they could keep going until then. Didn't work.

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]Reason seems to be thrown out of the window when it comes to the PBL[/quote]

Yes, but we're getting used to that from you.

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]...and make no mistake. This is about the PBL. If Jay Fiedler (or this person Shuler) said they would only continue to fund their team if they switched to the ABA, instead of the PBL, you would have been critical of this action. I've followed your postings for years and I'm certain of this. Demetrius Ford didn't go rogue. The following article and quote suggests Jay Fiedler was quite active during the season regarding operations of the team:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/sport ... 09cba.html
[/quote]

I would have been critical of the strategy because it would make no sense for the Miners to go to the ABA. That would have been a desperation move, going from one completely unstable situation to another. They'd move from one league to avoid cancelling much of their schedule and wind up in another where doing so is a virtual certainty. The ABA is the bottom of the barrel of minor leagues and has been for years, based solely on its inability to play its alleged schedule. Having stated the obvious, do you have any idea whatsoever of the number of ABA missteps that I never comment on? How about a team missing an away game because too much of its roster got into trouble for a bar fight the night before? How about the league pushing teams to make money on tryout camps? How about all the shenanigans that happened behind the scenes in Nashville, including a team owner having a confrontation with players? Go back and look at my posts from this year and count just how many folded ABA teams from this past season I hauled out on the carpet. Please, find my lengthy diatribes on the Aurora Force, Bahama Pro Show, Chicago Steam, Cleveland Rockers, Detroit Hoops, Gallup Talons or any of the other joke ABA teams from this last year. Fact is, I don't have the time to comment on everything. Sometimes things just catch me at the right time.

Fiedler may have been active. He doesn't have to give up ownership or management rights when he decides to stop pouring his money into a losing cause. Does he have a moral obligation to walk away or make it right? Now, that's a better question.

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]...and this, from the post above.

That's quite true if you're dealing with a corporation. The corporation owes the debt, not the individual. Fiedler betrayed a confidence though and shouldn't use a loophole in the law to burn those people. On the other hand, when will towns and communities learn NOT to put so much faith in out-of-towners??? When will they learn NOT to be so star-struck???[/quote]

How many communities have been burned by locals? Tons. Wasn't Jewel Harris Sr. a local? It isn't all about out-of-towners. It's about doing good business, getting your money up front (rent before games are played, for instance) and being aware of who you're actually dealing with (an individual or a corporate entity).

Post Reply

Return to “CBA”