[quote=""herbenator21""]I was there nobody was laughing. we did laugh at a person named BarbaraPatterson and what a tool she is.[/quote]
That's funny right there! I don't care who ya are, that's funny!
AIFL is Dead, AIFA is Born
Very Mature
Huh Huh. Huh Huh. He said tool
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SignGuyDino
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[quote=""preeths""]This is precisely why this entire sport needs to be cleared up. When a team fails, it hurts not only fans, sponsors and cities, but team employees as well, who often go unpaid for long stretches. That is why all the leagues have to do a much better job of making sure their owners are qualified and can at least make it through the season. The so-called negativity many fans have sometimes is nothing personal against anyone or any league, it's a reflection of what they've done to this point. This sport needs to get it right soon.[/quote]
Some people in this sport are getting it right. Those are the folks that we as fans should support. I know some teams are trying to do the right thing but they are in one of the crappy leagues. I feel for those folks. It's easy to see the arguements for supporting those teams. But then you are helping the league scam artists stay in business. Tough call.
If you were on a sinking boat and faced with these two choices what would you do? First choice, save the guy who fell overboard. Second choice, plug the hole so everyone else doesn't join the guy in the water. The guy in water would be screwed if I had to choose. That's how I feel about teams in crappy leagues.
Let's quit supporting the bad guys so they can die a natural death. The good guys will fill the holes in time. I would rather go a couple of seasons with no games than to keeping watching crap and complaining about it on the boards.
Some people in this sport are getting it right. Those are the folks that we as fans should support. I know some teams are trying to do the right thing but they are in one of the crappy leagues. I feel for those folks. It's easy to see the arguements for supporting those teams. But then you are helping the league scam artists stay in business. Tough call.
If you were on a sinking boat and faced with these two choices what would you do? First choice, save the guy who fell overboard. Second choice, plug the hole so everyone else doesn't join the guy in the water. The guy in water would be screwed if I had to choose. That's how I feel about teams in crappy leagues.
Let's quit supporting the bad guys so they can die a natural death. The good guys will fill the holes in time. I would rather go a couple of seasons with no games than to keeping watching crap and complaining about it on the boards.
Life is funny, unless you're too stupid to get the joke.
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ugottabkidding
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This is a difficult issue
The goiod teams need support of their fans. I believe the Washington Redskins have sold out with season tickets for over 30 years and Lord knows some years they have been pretty sorry. Fans always knew that the other team was going to show up. I think I read on some thread a couple of months ago somebody suggest that there needed to be some sort of uniformity to the various leagues. Some sort of umbrella organization. I think that might help. Most eveyryone plays by the same rules and a few small differences could be tolerated, but for example, I wonder why the GLIFL folks decided to play 7 on 7 instead of 8 on 8. Not a criticism, just a curiosity. The other thing that I think might help this sport is some sort of afiliation arrangements. Fans know where to look for their favorite player from one year to the next, the A club to the AA club to the AAA club and so on. I know that most minor leaguie teams, certainly not all, are owned by the major league club, but it seems that indoor teams ought to ba ebale to develop some sort opf working relationship with an Arena team, or even to some degree with an NFL team. Aren't several of the Arena league teams now owned by NFL teams ? The sport is awesome and it a shame that fans are being ripped off the shady tactics of folks like Carolyn Shiver and Andrew Hanies. 64 teams, Good God, there aren't 64 cities with decent arenas that don't already have teams and putting franchies in places like Palm Berach where the convention center doesn't have permanenet seating is just a joke. And telling the outright lies like got Haines into that lawsuit he didn't even bother to respond to. How stupid is that ? Trying to convince potential owners these teams are worth millions have dollars have only result4ed in people giving away franchises to keep their leagues alive and what ios the value of a free franchise. I believe that math says that is ZERO. Which in turn makes the league ZERO which results in inevtiable crashes and the fans are left with ZERO.
I've rambled enough.
I've rambled enough.
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BarbaraPatterson
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Agreed Ugotta, the question is this. Should we as fans, let the AIFA off the hook and support them, and pretend what happened with the AIFL didnt exist? I was perfectly willing to give the AIFL another chance, it looked like it was moving in the right direction, new ownership involved, team owners were getting more say, individuals with more experience was being brought in to help manage etc. Overall I just think Haines was trying to do to much on his own.
One of the problems is a federal law governing something called a fraudulent conveyance.
Fraudulent Conveyance
The illegal transfer of property to another party in order to defer, hinder or defraud creditors.
Investopedia Says: In order to be found guilty of fraudulent conveyance, it must be proven that the accused's intention for transferring the property was to put it out of reach of a known creditor.
I dont see how this transaction would not violate this law. http://www.answers.com/topic/fraudulent-conveyance for information. The AIFA owners are claiming that they never signed onto the AIFL on paper, but no where in this laws does it state that the new business owner has to be an owner of the old business, what it says is that there needs to be an "actual intent" to hinder, delay or defraud presents a problem.
http://www.wolfbaldwin.com/lawyers_atto ... lvania.asp
To ascertain actual intent, one considers whether:
the transfer was to an insider;
the debtor retained control or possession after the transfer;
the transfer was concealed;
the debtor had been sued or threatened with suit before the transfer was made;
the transfer was substantially all of the debtors assets;
the debtor absconded;
the debtor removed or concealed assets;
the value of the consideration received by the debtor was reasonably equivalent to the value of the asset transferred or the amount of the obligation incurred; and
the debtor was insolvent or became insolvent shortly after the transfer.
The AIFL can claim to be "disbanded" and the AIFA can claim to be formed, but since this happened all at the same meeting, should we fans now support this action? Do we hold team owners, who were all present at that same meeting liable morally for not only allowing this to happen, but for going along and assisting it to happen. After all, some of these debts were created on the team owners behalf, (such as referees)
To me, and I'm no lawyer, this is exactly what it looks like, and while it may not be the case, in the sports industry, appearance is everything.
One of the problems is a federal law governing something called a fraudulent conveyance.
Fraudulent Conveyance
The illegal transfer of property to another party in order to defer, hinder or defraud creditors.
Investopedia Says: In order to be found guilty of fraudulent conveyance, it must be proven that the accused's intention for transferring the property was to put it out of reach of a known creditor.
I dont see how this transaction would not violate this law. http://www.answers.com/topic/fraudulent-conveyance for information. The AIFA owners are claiming that they never signed onto the AIFL on paper, but no where in this laws does it state that the new business owner has to be an owner of the old business, what it says is that there needs to be an "actual intent" to hinder, delay or defraud presents a problem.
http://www.wolfbaldwin.com/lawyers_atto ... lvania.asp
To ascertain actual intent, one considers whether:
the transfer was to an insider;
the debtor retained control or possession after the transfer;
the transfer was concealed;
the debtor had been sued or threatened with suit before the transfer was made;
the transfer was substantially all of the debtors assets;
the debtor absconded;
the debtor removed or concealed assets;
the value of the consideration received by the debtor was reasonably equivalent to the value of the asset transferred or the amount of the obligation incurred; and
the debtor was insolvent or became insolvent shortly after the transfer.
The AIFL can claim to be "disbanded" and the AIFA can claim to be formed, but since this happened all at the same meeting, should we fans now support this action? Do we hold team owners, who were all present at that same meeting liable morally for not only allowing this to happen, but for going along and assisting it to happen. After all, some of these debts were created on the team owners behalf, (such as referees)
To me, and I'm no lawyer, this is exactly what it looks like, and while it may not be the case, in the sports industry, appearance is everything.
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BarbaraPatterson
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SignGuyDino
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IF this was an entirely separate league, Haines would NOT be allowed involved in ANY way.
PERIOD.
The reality is legalities or not, people see "AIFA" and think "AIFL."
Imagine next August if the WIFL and AIFA made proposals to put a team in Asheville for 2008. No way Haines would dare show up and claim that was another league. Would he?
(WIFL prob. shouldn't bother with Asheville anyway until something, if anything, happens to address our pathetic arena. Just using it as an example. But right now they look 100 times more credible.)
PERIOD.
The reality is legalities or not, people see "AIFA" and think "AIFL."
Imagine next August if the WIFL and AIFA made proposals to put a team in Asheville for 2008. No way Haines would dare show up and claim that was another league. Would he?
(WIFL prob. shouldn't bother with Asheville anyway until something, if anything, happens to address our pathetic arena. Just using it as an example. But right now they look 100 times more credible.)
Last edited by SignGuyDino on Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never make anyone a priority that makes you an option.
[quote=""ugottabkidding""]Most eveyryone plays by the same rules and a few small differences could be tolerated, but for example, I wonder why the GLIFL folks decided to play 7 on 7 instead of 8 on 8. Not a criticism, just a curiosity.[/quote]
In hindsight, our fans liked the GLIFL game style, so we've got no reason to change it (though we're going to tweak and clarify the rules).
Beforehand, we looked at it objectively. How many players on AFL, CFL, NFL rosters...how many of them (especially in a per-team sense) came from the indoor leagues? Have they done their jobs as a "developmental league" to get guys moved up? In some cases, absolutely. But as a whole?
We have one player already with a contract to play in Grand Rapids in 2007 (L.J. Parker, from Battle Creek). Because the level of play is a step below the AFL, the 7-on-7 opens up the field such that the players can make plays. Players can show their strengths and use the opened up playing field (though yes, defenses are definitely allowed to play more as well) to show what they can do on the bigger stage.
With scouts at GLIFL games plus teams asking for tapes, the GLIFL (despite its 7-on-7 status) is doing its job as a developmental league. Now, we need to build on what went well in 2006 and eliminate what didn't go well in 2006. Think about it for a second. The best developmental league for the AFL doesn't play 8-man football, and no one questions the NCAA. No developmental league for the CFL, except the college system in Canada, plays the 12-man style the CFL uses, but it doesn't stop them from finding good football players.
If the GLIFL brings in good players looking to move up, and we've done that in Year One, they will move up. While they're here, they provide a top-notch indoor football product that over 75,000 fans enjoyed in 2006.
In hindsight, our fans liked the GLIFL game style, so we've got no reason to change it (though we're going to tweak and clarify the rules).
Beforehand, we looked at it objectively. How many players on AFL, CFL, NFL rosters...how many of them (especially in a per-team sense) came from the indoor leagues? Have they done their jobs as a "developmental league" to get guys moved up? In some cases, absolutely. But as a whole?
We have one player already with a contract to play in Grand Rapids in 2007 (L.J. Parker, from Battle Creek). Because the level of play is a step below the AFL, the 7-on-7 opens up the field such that the players can make plays. Players can show their strengths and use the opened up playing field (though yes, defenses are definitely allowed to play more as well) to show what they can do on the bigger stage.
With scouts at GLIFL games plus teams asking for tapes, the GLIFL (despite its 7-on-7 status) is doing its job as a developmental league. Now, we need to build on what went well in 2006 and eliminate what didn't go well in 2006. Think about it for a second. The best developmental league for the AFL doesn't play 8-man football, and no one questions the NCAA. No developmental league for the CFL, except the college system in Canada, plays the 12-man style the CFL uses, but it doesn't stop them from finding good football players.
If the GLIFL brings in good players looking to move up, and we've done that in Year One, they will move up. While they're here, they provide a top-notch indoor football product that over 75,000 fans enjoyed in 2006.