Jackhammers in trouble, need cash for bills...

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ca
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the nol for 2011 ...

Post by ca » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:45 am

should have all of its chicagoland teams in it - joliet and they may have to get out of their geographical footprint to replace them market wise

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Post by J.J. Smith » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:26 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]The publicized numbers that were thrown around at a Joliet city council meeting last year and the amounts the Railcats pay are roughly the same. I'm too lazy to search for articles at the moment because I have other points to make (here and in my next reply).

What does the percentage of rent paid to cost of construction have to do with anything?!? Understand this, ballparks like U.S. Steel Yard and Silver Cross were never ever intended to be profitable. These ballparks were built to stimulate downtown development and generate jobs, whether directly or indirectly.[/quote]

They aren't "roughly the same" whatever that means. The Railcats pay considerably less and get other perks on top of it. When you regain your ambition, you can post your proof to the contrary.

What does the the cost of a building have to do with the rent one can charge for it? I see you are a bit economically challenged, Ken. But I'm guessing you work for the finance department of the City of Gary, so that would not be a problem for you.

Of course they were not intended to be profitable. They were intended to make money for the contractors, money men, and government parasites. And in that, they were spectacular successes. At a cost of over 50 million for the Steel Yard, everybody got nice and fat on that deal. As for the supposed economic benefits at both Joliet and Gary-it hasn't happened, at least not anything that would justify the extreme cost of those two places.

Take a look on digitalballparks.com at the Frontier League parks. For a small fraction of the money, they have managed to build interesting, comfortable, and economically sane stadiums. Some were even paid for by the owners-imagine that!
Last edited by J.J. Smith on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix link

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Post by J.J. Smith » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:43 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]With all due respect, your logic is...what?!? Lake County already has a ballpark. It's a temporary ballpark, but it's a ballpark that fans seem to enjoy.[/quote]

If the people of Lake County are happy with the park they threw together last spring, then I've got to give them the Most Tolerant Fans in America award. It sure looks like they are going to have it for season two, so we will see if their tolerance, (and the ownerships finances) hold out for another season.

I don't see how that setup can make anyone money in year two, even if Ehrenreich has the use of it for free (and we all know how he's not big on paying for things), so that's why I can see it taking a break if Joliet is out of the Northern League picture.

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Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:43 pm

[quote=""J.J. Smith""]They aren't "roughly the same" whatever that means. The Railcats pay considerably less and get other perks on top of it. When you regain your ambition, you can post your proof to the contrary.

What does the the cost of a building have to do with the rent one can charge for it? I see you are a bit economically challenged, Ken. But I'm guessing you work for the finance department of the City of Gary, so that would not be a problem for you.

Of course they were not intended to be profitable. They were intended to make money for the contractors, money men, and government parasites. And in that, they were spectacular successes. At a cost of over 50 million for the Steel Yard, everybody got nice and fat on that deal. As for the supposed economic benefits at both Joliet and Gary-it hasn't happened, at least not anything that would justify the extreme cost of those two places.

Take a look on digitalballparks.com at the Frontier League parks. For a small fraction of the money, they have managed to build interesting, comfortable, and economically sane stadiums. Some were even paid for by the owners-imagine that![/quote]

Yes, the Railcats' annual payments are roughly the same as the Jackhammers' payments. Their payments are also roughly the same as the Flyers' payments. Why? These city's (among others with comparable sized ballparks) agreements were used as guidelines. I was a local politician during Gary's entire ballpark conception to completion process. I'm a card-carrying member of the better party, so I sleep well at night knowing I didn't have to be one of those "government parasites" you mentioned. An in-law at the time was on the Gary city council and the city controller at the time later became a business associate, so I know about the deals that brought the ballpark, Railcats, and Northern League to Gary. It's nothing earthshaking though. Here is a public link about the Railcats annual payments to the city:
http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/article_ ... eddf2.html
Off the field, the RailCats have been successful since they entered the NL as an expansion team in 2002. Tatoian said the club has turned a profit every year, even though it now pays $150,000 annually in rent to the city of Gary.
Mind you, the city charges the Railcats extra when attendance tops a specific level (and that level was set rather low purposely). The Railcats have been topping that attendance level for quite a few years now. At the end of the day, that $150,000 becomes roughly $200,000 (what the Jackhammers are supposed to pay Joliet) or possibly more.

Now this is what I could find about the Jackhammers annual payments to THEIR city:

http://mchenrycountyblog.com/category/m ... -baseball/

...and this is some of the public consumption stuff.

Am I a bit economically challenged?!? I don't know. Do I work for Gary's Department of Finance? No. I DO know the jury is still out on whether downtown ballparks stimulate surrounding growth. It took decades for downtowns in Joliet and Gary to decay. It's going to take awhile for them to recover, especially when the economy has hit rock bottom like now. Could these cities have built more modest Frontier League type ballparks in their downtowns? Sure. They could have also built high school quality ballparks and saved even more money. Cities are judged on their downtown areas though. That's why the nationwide trend the last few decades has been to build lavish ballparks in or near downtowns. How do you put a value on perception?
Last edited by Ken, Steelheads fan on Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: saved "even" more money, not enough mo' money

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Post by Ken, Steelheads fan » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:27 pm

[quote=""J.J. Smith""]If the people of Lake County are happy with the park they threw together last spring, then I've got to give them the Most Tolerant Fans in America award. It sure looks like they are going to have it for season two, so we will see if their tolerance, (and the ownerships finances) hold out for another season.

I don't see how that setup can make anyone money in year two, even if Ehrenreich has the use of it for free (and we all know how he's not big on paying for things), so that's why I can see it taking a break if Joliet is out of the Northern League picture.[/quote]

The numbers speak for themselves. If the fans were unhappy, then they wouldn't be showing up for games in the thousands like that. That's why I don't understand your logic.

Okay, I give up. Why can't that setup make anyone money in year two...assuming the new permanent seating bowl and suites don't get built? The Fielders sell beer, food, merchandise, rent out their picnic/party areas...and have fans showing up by the thousands. That combination seems to work well for others in the baseball industry.

ca,
Personally, I don't see the Jackhammers going anywhere. Why put another team in Silver Cross that's going to generate even less revenue? They'll work out a deal. The city and Jackhammers are partners.
Last edited by Ken, Steelheads fan on Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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putting an fl team in joliet ...

Post by ca » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:33 am

or another owner in charge of the j/hamers might not be a pleasing set of options . i say this cause i dont know if joliet can bk nol ball anymore and i doubt if theyve ever wanted fl ball . as for the pk in gary (along with joliet and maybe s/burg) its much more lavish than r/ford and costed as much $$$ as the pk in toledo which has twice the seating capacity . so this idea of baby camden yards' dwtn sounds like somewhat of a scam to me and when ya couple that with joliet giving away the farm at the turnstyles its not stunning that they are in trouble

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Post by J.J. Smith » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:25 pm

[quote=""Ken, Steelheads fan""]The numbers speak for themselves. If the fans were unhappy, then they wouldn't be showing up for games in the thousands like that. That's why I don't understand your logic.

Okay, I give up. Why can't that setup make anyone money in year two...assuming the new permanent seating bowl and suites don't get built? The Fielders sell beer, food, merchandise, rent out their picnic/party areas...and have fans showing up by the thousands. That combination seems to work well for others in the baseball industry.

ca,
Personally, I don't see the Jackhammers going anywhere. Why put another team in Silver Cross that's going to generate even less revenue? They'll work out a deal. The city and Jackhammers are partners.[/quote]



Despite you unrelenting cheer leading of the Fielders, the facts are they did not actually draw anywhere near the numbers posted, the people they did sell to paid $5 or less, and lots of tickets were simply given away. The people up there now know what they are dealing with in Ehrenreich. All the wonderful jobs promised did not materialize. The City of Zion has probably taken a loss on this. I expect the franchise to simply fold because it is not capable of making a profit under the present circumstances, and there is no funding for a real stadium in the foreseeable future.

As for Joliet, I think the Jackhammers are finished. They never really developed much of a fan base, the team has zero value on the open market, and I think Joliet will try to come up with something different for Silver Cross. What that might be, I don't know, but continuing with the present set up seems doomed, and I think everyone realizes that.

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the only saving grace ...

Post by ca » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:37 am

the fielders might have is that they havent spent big bucks on a pk like joliet so the fielders might return . as for the hammers do they generate enough revenue to bk aa indy ball ? when that is i doubt along with joliet doing its shoot yourself in the foot impersonation by playing mr giveaway too much like kzo has done in the fl the nol may need to find another zip code for the hammers

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Post by J.J. Smith » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:44 pm

Here's an article on the current state of the Hammers...

http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=1971966&spid=


I got a kick out of this progression...

“We’ve cut our staff,” Kelly Sufka, director of operations, acknowledged Thursday.

But Sufka referred questions to General Manager Jamie Toole, who referred questions to Team President Peter Ferro Jr. Ferro did not return calls Thursday."

For factually challenged Ken...

"Ferro said last week that the city would have to offer some relief on the current debt and lower the existing rent, which is at $232,000 per year, for the team to attract new investors."

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Post by smallballfan » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:50 pm

the fielders might have is that they havent spent big bucks on a pk like joliet so the fielders might return . as for the hammers do they generate enough revenue to bk aa indy ball ? when that is i doubt along with joliet doing its shoot yourself in the foot impersonation by playing mr giveaway too much like kzo has done in the fl the nol may need to find another zip code for the hammers
Um.... what?

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