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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:22 pm
by Kansas Bill
As far as the original post, you don't go by the anchor cities population, you go by the metro area population... Both Joplin and Sioux City are well in excess of the 100,000 minimum...

That being said... As of today the Joplin franchise is only drawing 646 fans per game.. I have no idea what it costs to field a team at this level, but I doubt that 646 is going to cut it for long...

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:55 pm
by suge night
Indy, baseball is about to enter a cross roads as an industry itself.

This team isn't the only team with those types of attendance numbers, the rumor factory has the AA league adding by subtracting we'll see if it plays out as such but the level itself is in for a transformation, as that fuzzy math can't continue to be its only offering to would be owners.[players being sold for over priced value, for you newbie types here] relax lol you probably already knew right :cool:

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:03 am
by nksports
[quote=""Kansas Bill""]As far as the original post, you don't go by the anchor cities population, you go by the metro area population... Both Joplin and Sioux City are well in excess of the 100,000 minimum...

That being said... As of today the Joplin franchise is only drawing 646 fans per game.. I have no idea what it costs to field a team at this level, but I doubt that 646 is going to cut it for long...[/quote]

The AirHogs and Laredo both suffered from horrid attendance numbers as well this season. I don't think the AirHogs having two homes this season helped any. I'm not sure what the excuse for Laredo is. There isn't a lot to do there. Is there an economic downturn in the area? Is there any marketing being done? They were in a playoff chase over the weekend and never drew more than 2,400 in any game.
St Paul Saints - 413,482 49 8,438
Winnipeg Goldeyes - 231,206 48 4,817
Kansas City T-Bones - 213,165 50 4,263
Lincoln Saltdogs - 169,750 47 3,612
Fargo-Moorhead RedHawks - 180,345 50 3,607
Gary SouthShore RailCats - 163,519 48 3,407
Wichita Wingnuts - 150,929 49 3,080
Sioux Falls Canaries - 125,591 50 2,512
Sioux City Explorers - 68,278 50 1,366
Texas AirHogs - 44,282 45 984
Laredo Lemurs - 41,955 47 893
Joplin Blasters - 31,001 48 646

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:04 am
by DJ Omnimaga
Darn, those numbers reminds me those years when only 4 Can-Am teams drew over 1000. It's like the world is upside down now, with Can-Am having zero team under 1600 this year, although for the first time in its history no team averaged over 3000...

Here are the numbers in comparison:

Code: Select all

Rockland Boulders	-	149,632	51	2,934
Quebec Capitales	-	146,946	53	2,773
Ottawa Champions	-	127,618	52	2,454
Sussex County Miners	-	90,237	49	1,842
Trois-Rivieres Aigles	-	78,948	47	1,680
New Jersey Jackals	-	74,335	45	1,652
They say teams need 1000 or 1200 in the Can-Am to break even but several years ago I remember hearing that Quebec City needed at least 2000. If the salary cap is higher in the AA, I wonder how teams that draws 600-800 are surviving...

At least it seems that the two Sioux teams numbers are going up and Gary is hanging there despite being in a crime-ridden rustbelt.

Fools Gold

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:32 pm
by suge night
In most cases, the teams are kept alive by owners who are either independently wealthy or have a basket of other businesses, and are prepared to swallow some losses for the thrill of owning a team. “In any league, I’d be surprised if over half the teams make money,” says Miles Wolff, commissioner of the American Association and Canadian American Association independent leagues.

This interview in the Wall Street Journal, when the commissioner admits its all a shell game, and you can still get a sucker that is some product. This interview was pointing out the model of independent baseball is a walking dead product. :cool:

I did notice they allowed Cleburne into the AA and there is talk of some new stadium deal with AA being the force behind the deal, just shows there 's a sucker in every office all you have to do is look.

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:34 pm
by suge night
in a move to strengthen themselves, the four longest-running independent leagues have established a loose connection called the Independent Professional Baseball Federation to discuss marketing and baseball-operations efforts. “I think these four independent leagues in existence are the only ones that will survive into the next decade, because there aren’t any other places with enough good markets for six or eight new teams,” Mr. Wolff says.

Additional, from commissioner- notice he attempt's to push there setup into the future, which he has already said the model is filled with uncertainty and is a money pit essentially.

And his league the AA is already in the planning stage of attempting to move a new stadium into one of those not good enough markets for a team? simply talking out the side of his face.

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:50 am
by Sam Hill
[quote=""crixus""] AA players make almost nothing compared to MLB minor league players, so attendance obviously doesn't mean as much.[/quote]

While the first part of that is true, it's devoid of context.

Affiliated minor league players' salaries are paid by their MLB affiliates. (As are the managers and coaches, and the equipment is paid for by the MLB affiliate as well.)

In independent ball, teams have to pay for everything themselves, so, yeah, attendance - the only real revenue stream besides sign sponsorships and program ads - really DOES mean as much, if not more. Even if the players don't make much.

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:54 am
by nksports
Those bottom four teams I don't think are bad markets in and of themselves, but obviously things are going wrong.
The AirHogs sharing Grand Prairie and Amarillo didn't work very well and didn't build up any fan loyalty in either market. Grand Prairie is just six miles from Arlington, and while an AirHog ticket is cheaper than a Rangers ticket, the proximity does suck all the oxygen and attention away from the AirHogs. The team drew well over 2,000 just three years ago, suffered a drop of about 50 percent in attendance the following season, did about the same in 2015 and had another 50 percent drop this season. That means something is either going wrong in marketing or a severe economic downturn.
Laredo and Amarillo are both dependent on oil for their economies and we all know how well that sector has been doing the past couple of years. That might explain the drops there. Those are things you can't fix right away. When you lose your job or have to take less money, you don't go to ballgames.
Grand Prairie has a relatively new ballpark, while Amarillo has an old one (I'm old school and like old parks. They have more personality, but there is a line of thinking that everything needs a lot of bells and whistles these days).
Joplin's market isn't that bad off, you are at least an hour away from the nearest pro ball clubs (Springfield, Bentonville and Tulsa) and there isn't a whole lot else to do there in the summer.
Joplin has a very old park, but it underwent some upgrades as the Blasters moved in.

The other question is where could any new teams go or teams be moved to? Topeka has always been discussed, but there is no ballpark ready and none in the pipeline. The Pecos League put a team there this summer in a complex used for high school and summer college baseball that doesn't seat a whole lot. They didn't draw a whole lot (none of the Pecos League teams in Kansas did draw well this summer except maybe Garden City and that's a league where drawing more than 100 a game is a good gate).

Nebraska's major cities are played out.
St. Joe, Mo., tried and failed as did Columbia in the Frontier League.
St. Joe does better with summer college ball.
Cedar Falls-Waterloo has a metro area of about 160,000, but I don't know what kind of facilities are there. Every other town in Iowa of any size already has a team.
St. Cloud, Minn., is big enough, but there you run into College Summer team loyalties.
Thunder Bay is big enough, but hard to get to from any direction in the AA outside of Winnipeg. Is there a ballpark there?
Bismark? Rapid City? Lubbock? Same problems you have in Amarillo and Laredo.
Regina and/or Saskatoon? (that would make Winnipeg happy)
And the literal (multi)-million dollar (US or Canadian) question. Who could you get to own these teams.
On the other hand, would a league contraction to eight to 10 teams be so bad if those remaining teams are financially strong?
You could also look at some sort of a merger or interlocking schedule with the Frontier League. Or even team swaps. Both leagues are on pretty friendly terms. Distances are pushing it for some of the outliers in both leagues, but for teams like Wichita, Joplin or Lincoln, the travel to places like Gateway, River City or Southern Illinois are better than current trips to places like Gary and St. Paul.
The Frontier League players tend to be younger, but in a merger, veteran rules and what not can be ironed out.

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:51 pm
by suge night
The new market, is Rosemont near O'Hare Airport, the Rosemont mayor had previously offered the land free to the Chicago Cubs.

Rosemont already is home to the American Hockey league Chicago Wolves, WNBA Chicago Sky and the Chicago Bandits of the National Fast Pitch softball league.

The ownership group says the stadium will be used for many other events, it will need it to stay open, according to the commissioners own statements in the previous interview.

In a league where operating cost run around 7-$800,000.00 for a season with a annual franchise fee around $100,000.00 once a team falls behind it can never catch up.

NK, Clearly the airhog's location wasn't thought out well the stadium is nice but minor league baseball won't work in it simply because of the location and operating cost, they are bleeding red ink with no way of stopping it.