Minor Leagues In General

[Shootmaster_44]

I am curious why leagues are forever trying to make hockey work in the Southern US. Why aren't there more minor leagues taking shape in Canada and the Northern US? Off the top of my head I can think of several markets where pro hockey would work that don't have teams. The many former AHL markets in Atlantic Canada would also work as a self-contained league. There are so many untapped markets, yet leagues forever try to push hockey in Florida, Alabama etc. Does anyone know why?

Here's my take on cities that could work:
In the West:
Regina, SK
Saskatoon, SK
Red Deer, AB
Kelowna, BC
Grand Forks, ND
Bismarck, ND
Billings, MT
Great Falls, MT
Fargo-Moorehead, MN
Casper, WY
Rapid City, SD
Sioux Falls, SD
Seattle, WA
Spokane, WA
Portland, OR

In the East:
Quebec City, PQ
Drummondville, PQ
Thunder Bay, ON
Halifax, NS
Sydney, NS
Fredericton, NB
Moncton, NB
Charlottetown, PEI
Saint John, NB
St. John's, NFLD
Burlington, VT
Bangor, ME

[adsco]

I am curious why leagues are forever trying to make hockey work in the Southern US. Why aren't there more minor leagues taking shape in Canada and the Northern US? Off the top of my head I can think of several markets where pro hockey would work that don't have teams. The many former AHL markets in Atlantic Canada would also work as a self-contained league. There are so many untapped markets, yet leagues forever try to push hockey in Florida, Alabama etc. Does anyone know why?

Here's my take on cities that could work:
In the West:
Regina, SK
Saskatoon, SK
Red Deer, AB
Kelowna, BC
Grand Forks, ND
Bismarck, ND
Billings, MT
Great Falls, MT
Fargo-Moorehead, MN
Casper, WY
Rapid City, SD
Sioux Falls, SD
Seattle, WA
Spokane, WA
Portland, OR

In the East:
Quebec City, PQ
Drummondville, PQ
Thunder Bay, ON
Halifax, NS
Sydney, NS
Fredericton, NB
Moncton, NB
Charlottetown, PEI
Saint John, NB
St. John's, NFLD
Burlington, VT
Bangor, ME

For the most part, Minor Pro can't compete with Major Jr. in Canada. Quebec is different, they love Senior A hockey there, and a they have semi-pro league there as well. According to most accounts, they are scenes out of "Slapshot". We don't hear much about it because the message boards, and press releases are in French.

Quebec City might be able to support an AHL team; but only if there are a significant amount of French players on it. And they still will have to compete against Major Jr. and the "other leagues".

Atlantic Canada used to have a great AHL "loop". But they lost out to competition from Major Junior, and it was difficult for the NHL teams to get their players out of Atlantic Canada due to weather, and travel issues.

Simply put there is too much competition for the Hockey fan's dollars. In Ontario the Western Ontario "Major Hockey League" (Senior A) is not doing that well, is down to 5 teams this year, and some are rumoured to be dropping out for next year. In Toronto the Scarbourough Major League hasn't operated in quite some time. Both aforementioned leagues were/are populated by former minor-pros, University, and Junior League players.

The Colonial League, in the early 1990s, was located in some Southern/Western Ontario locations, and attendence was quite poor. It evolved into the UTL.

CIS, University hockey, which is quite good, some teams have million dollar budgets, is also a "niche" type sport. In Toronto, virtually no one goes to the York, or Ryerson University games, while some other Teams get good crowds.

Some teams in Minor-Pro have almost as many sales staff - as hockey players, and the tickets are sold to groups with "deep discounts" - to get fans in.

You also have a lot of "absentee owners" in Minor-Pro, that hire people that are either hockey savy, or business savy; but usually not both. Which leads to either a good hockey team, that is badly managed, or well managed team wich is poor - in terms of "quality of players". To have a good "AA" hockey team you have to be well connected and be good at recruiting players.

In the southern and eastern US, most successful teams are well managed, staffed, and promoted. Also, some good ones are close to Miltary bases.

In essence, fans want to see hockey were the players are "on the way up" rather then "on the way down". They want to see developing players who might get drafted, and/or make it to the bigs. There is only so many people with so much money - to spend on hockey.

Another problem is the amount of Leagues. CHL, UTL, SPHL, and ECHL are essentially "AA" leagues but don't play for a single, or common champoinship. This is due, largely to the Leagues possibly losing potential expansion fees. They don't want to almagamate for the betterment of Hockey. They don't get it though! If they did they would be able to generate TV revenues.

I have studied the demographics "at length" with "some expense". There are numerous "reports and papers" available from Hockey Canada, you can purchase and study if you wish.

[Pounder]

As for Major Junior, put it this way...

I've seen Mike Modano, Scott Gomez, a Hossa or two, a few Sutters... I've lost track of all the quality NHL talent I've seen in the WHL that didn't even bother getting a cup of coffee in minor pro before making the big time.

Nobody is going to wrestle markets out of the WHL... without being the NHL. Heck, Calgary and Vancouver have developed good to great WHL clubs.

[BCRantzilla]

Nothing will take the place of junior hockey in Western Canada. Nothing will beat the NHL or Senior hockey in Eastern Canada except junior. The AHL is barely a break even operation in Winnipeg even with the Moose owning the arena because the fans want the NHL or the WHL.

The South has never seen good quality major junior hockey on par with the CHL so they don't have anything but the NHL and maybe the AHL to compare it to. In Canada, EVERYTHING is compared to each other and all are under the microscope so a lot of leagues and concepts can die before they even get on the ice because everyone has decided that "senior hockey's better," or "men's leagues are better". It is much easier to sell lower level minor leagues in places where hockey as a whole isn't common because all you have to sell is the game itself.

Lower level minor league hockey needs to find a way to niche market itself the way lacrosse has in the northeast and senior hockey has in Quebec. I'm not 100% sure how you could do it but finding a niche is desperately needed or A-Puck could die an early death.

[BCRantzilla]

Hey Shoot,

I wanted to add to my post by going over some of the markets you mentioned that could and couldn't work based on past experience and what not:

In the West:

Regina, SK: No viable arena for anything but junior and the Pats are king there.

Saskatoon, SK: They lost their nerve for anything but junior after their attempt to move the Blues was stopped by the NHL. They worship the Blades here and no other sport or league has worked there since.

Red Deer, AB: Great rink, (a past host of the World Junior Championships,) but the Rebels are embedded in their souls.

Kelowna, BC: Another WHL stronghold with one of the best WHL programs in recent history. If anything is going to compete with the Rockets, it will be when the team starts losing consistantly but don't expect that anytime soon.

Grand Forks, ND: Lots of potential for runoff from fans who can't get in to see the Sioux, (who are sold out for eternity it seems,) but the team has a 'no compete' clause with the Englestad Arena so nothing else can exist there.

Bismarck, ND: Their arena, (only about 3000 seats,) is probably the sole reason why they don't have a CHL or AHL team. They support their NAHL team reasonably well but from someone who lives in their region I agree that they are looking for something better than the junior hockey equivilant of NFL Europe.

Billings, MT: See Bizmark

Great Falls, MT: I'm not firmiliar with GF. What's their arena situation and their hockey background?

Fargo-Moorhead, ND: They've been burned many times with shoddy junior and senior league franchises over the years but draw around 1000 a game for the Jets which is the American equivilant of Junior C, (low level Junior B at best.) If someone with some money and a committment to building a quality franchise in the community came in, a team would thrive. The fact that they are only an hour away from Grand Forks allows for great marketing opertunities to bring in fans who can't get in to see the Sioux. Since Title IX caused NDSU to cut their hockey program and stick with a ACHA club team, there is definately a dearth in quality hockey to compare the minors to there.

Rapid City, SD: A lot like Fargo but I'm not sure about their arena situation right now.

Sioux Falls, SD: Potential even if they are in college country. Their baseball team has always drawn so the minors can work in SF.

Seattle, WA: Too big for lower level minor leagues. They have a WHL franchise but the NHL and AHL have avoided this market like a disease for decades. There has to be a reason why.

Spokane, WA: They have had the Chiefs of the WHL for decades but it has been almost that long since the last time they were any good. If a minor pro league came here, they would have to A. win right away and B. reach out to the community ASAP or they won't last 3 years there because of the hold the WHL has had on the market for so long.

Portland, OR: See Spokane and Seattle.

In the East:

Quebec City, PQ: Double whammy here. Their LNAH team draws over 10,000 per game and Patrick Roy's QMJHL Remparts draw almost as well. Unless the NHL comes back, they are saturated.

Drummondville, PQ: See Quebec City, totally saturated with Junior and Senior hockey right now.

Thunder Bay, ON: They have the OHL right now but a minor pro league would die here fast because it is so remote from any other viable city.

Halifax, NS: Tough call. They have the arena and a decent fanbase but for some reason it is a minor and junior hockey graveyard.

Sydney, NS: See Halifax.

Fredericton, NB: Unless you have a really low budget, the minors won't work.

Moncton, NB: They WANT the AHL back but don't have the fanbase. Junior and Senior is all that can work here.

Charlottetown, PEI: No money there to do it and you have to be local to be taken seriously. No skin off my nose if they don't support a team for such a petty reason.

Saint John, NB: The CEHL is doing well here as it is.

St. John's, NFLD: There is a lot of potential here with the Baby Leafs leaving last year but it is tough to judge just yet.

[Pounder]

I can throw in a couple things here.

Bismarck: I THINK they play in a smaller building than where the CBA Dakota Wizards play... and I THINK the bigger building can accomodate hockey. They don't sell out the smaller building.

Billings, MT: Billings has a 10,000-seat arena, and that may well be part of the problem, since they draw under 2K per game for NAHL. The market isn't big enough to support that size building. Mind you, they've had a WHL failure before, but I wonder how they'd accept WHL NOW.

Great Falls, MT: I would have compared Great Falls to Bismarck rather than Billings to Bismarck. Apparently, their arena seats 2,900, but they barely filled that for their AWHL (now part of NAHL) team that ended up folding, plus the facility management seemed to favor non-ice events (noting that they also accomodate public skating in the winter... wicked setup, apparently). They've voted down new building taxes at the ballot box before. They don't even have Junior B in there (Butte does, and both Helena and Bozeman run Junior B teams concurrent with their NAHL teams).

Fargo-Moorhead, ND: They're NAHL, no?

Rapid City, SD: Sounds like I need to make a road trip there.

Seattle, WA: Key Arena was designed NOT to accomodate NHL... the upper bowl actually overhangs the ice at one end, lower bowl seats at that end are obviously removed, nobody can see the goal from that upper section, and the seats on the side at that end . They've been locked into WHL forever, but attendance may not have beat 4,000 per game this season- they're slipping, especially with the new Everett team 30 miles north doing gangbusters. The NBA Sonics seek modifications to Key Arena, so the Thunderbirds are even third party to what might be happening to THAT. The Thunderbirds could end up moving, but everything is up in the air there.

Spokane, WA: The Chiefs are still a Top 5 draw in the WHL. They aren't about to be replaced.

Portland, OR: The WHL just approved a sale to Arizona investors, under the understanding that the team stays in Portland. Attendance will likely have gone up for the last two years (haven't seen the final numbers yet), but there have been rumors and fears of the team leaving town. The Winter Hawks have their own dilemma, as they schedule home games at both the newer Rose Garden and the older Memorial Coliseum (part of the same complex, BTW)... the MC is the main home and is generally being left to rot, while the RG is slightly expensive to rent (Paul Allen, oddly enough, agrees, hence rumors of the Portland Trail Blazers moving, although a lease holds them in place another 19 years). I'm curious to see how the new owners deal with the building situations. I MUST note, BTW, that per the agreement between the Winter Hawks and the successor to Oregon Arena Corporation, the Rose Garden may only negotiate hockey with the WHL... and the NHL. I must also note that the core Winter Hawk fans are fiercely loyal... even to the point of preferring WHL to ANY pro league.

[whoopee23]

Fargo Moorehead is in the NAHL, a Junior A league, a step below the USHL but still a very good league.

[enduro155]

I do not know that this actually applies.
I remember being to games where there were less than 1500 in the building a couple of years back. Even with the team being a playoff calibre team, it still only draws in the 4 thousand range. This in a 11000 seat arena. The reason why minor pro would not work in Saskatoon is because of the Blades owners, not the fact that the fan support. There is actually a lot of apathy in S'toon.

[hfxhockeyfan]

There's great leagues in Eastern Canada.

http://www.snbshl.com

http://www.thecehl.ca