[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]Based on info I have I believe you are off by tens of thousands in your assessment of the combined three TRBL teams\' cash sponsorships. That does not come from seeing their books, but from having worked with a couple of key sponsors previously for one of them. But either way, if of all minor league teams out there you want to point out that there is room for improvement with the Sea Dawgs, that\'s kind of like saying the Pope should pray more, relatively speaking anyway. [/quote]
Fair enough.
I've formed pro sports sponsorships with organiziations such as military contractors to Microsoft to one of the top 10 medical networks in the United States.. each of which would drawf the partnership of all of the teams in any team in minor league basketball league..
"But Jeff, that was the past!" ... not exactly.. the time frame is within the last 12 months.
Allright though, let's talk about the absolute present.. The PBL is one of the largest minor league basketball leagues in terms of budget, correct??
I 100% own and operate a company whose annual budget is greater than all of the lifetime budgets of all teams in the PBL combined. And aside from the $10k ABA fees, greater than the budgets of all of the teams below the D-League combined..
Additionally my company is the #1 cash sponsor of a minor league sports team in our market - right here and now, as I type this..
My point is I'm not exactly spouting off here. I understand these things from several angles.
And I am willing to state with 100% confidence that I am NOT off by tens of thousands of dollars on the TRBL cash sponsorships. In fact I believe the $5,000 cash figure was probably OVER-STATING their position. $15,000 in corporate cash revenue? Not a chance - assuming their 3 websites accurately reflected their list of sponsors..
But by all means.. share your own position and experience with us and let us know what's up..
Tobacco Road Basketball League Thread
-
DazedAndAmused
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1066
- Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 2:36 am
Ok, so we started off with you not liking the league name for reasons IMO that indicate a lack of understanding of the region and business in the region.
Then another poster references the capabilities and history of the ring leaders (by team) of this apparent effort and you migrate to info@ email addresses, non dedicated staff (not sure why that would be an issue or what your point was there), and discounting support from owners other companies (I think.) Then we get to your 100% confidence about cash sponsorships (which runs totally opposite of the actual info/prior experience that I have with one of these teams, and more accurately their sponsors, as I did share previously.) I am really just trying to figure out what your position is here and what you are trying to get at.
These teams have lower budgets? The owners are not dedicated to just basketball? These guys cant create or run a league because .? The other league was better? (Really?) Maybe you just really liked the CBL and think these teams should have stayed? If so, some of us would probably like to know the reasons. Maybe you could convince us. If we are simply picking out small parts of each others posts and countering without a trying to make a more significant point, well, OK. I usually like to be heading somewhere in these discussions, but will admit my contribution to a rambling thread if thats what it has become.
You bring up the PBL. Fine league. Good presence. Seemingly going through another transition. Far from perfect too. Dont the guys that run that league and some of their teams have other jobs or companies? You dont think they are sharing resources and doing intracompany sponsorships? You probably know better than me so I will yield to you on it.
Is this new TRBL league likely going to run with much lower budgets than PBL teams do on average today? I would say most certainly yes without any direct knowledge, but the PBL has had its share of low budget teams, teams folding mid season, etc too, some of which affected Wilmington negatively. Frankly I would like the Sea Dawgs in the PBL but I do not think that it makes sense geographically. At one time it did but the teams nearby all went away. (Do that research too.) But I am not even sure why we are talking about the PBL. The TRBL looks to be a spring league, if anything a potential partner. The competitors might be the IBL, WBA, and CBL. Spring leagues are entirely different animals, particularly in the Southeast for lots of reasons. The PBL is effectively competing with the ABA, IBA, Dleague, maybe the CBA again, and handful of regional winter leagues.
I am definitely all for your right to be unimpressed with aspects of this new league or its individual teams (even my dawgs) but to have any credibility I think you need to acknowledge what these teams have had to deal with and apply an equal critique to where they came from. If you do that, and yes, do the research, my guess is will you get it, that is if you are truly objective.
I am glad to hear that you are a one percenter though we need more of you in minor league sports.
Then another poster references the capabilities and history of the ring leaders (by team) of this apparent effort and you migrate to info@ email addresses, non dedicated staff (not sure why that would be an issue or what your point was there), and discounting support from owners other companies (I think.) Then we get to your 100% confidence about cash sponsorships (which runs totally opposite of the actual info/prior experience that I have with one of these teams, and more accurately their sponsors, as I did share previously.) I am really just trying to figure out what your position is here and what you are trying to get at.
These teams have lower budgets? The owners are not dedicated to just basketball? These guys cant create or run a league because .? The other league was better? (Really?) Maybe you just really liked the CBL and think these teams should have stayed? If so, some of us would probably like to know the reasons. Maybe you could convince us. If we are simply picking out small parts of each others posts and countering without a trying to make a more significant point, well, OK. I usually like to be heading somewhere in these discussions, but will admit my contribution to a rambling thread if thats what it has become.
You bring up the PBL. Fine league. Good presence. Seemingly going through another transition. Far from perfect too. Dont the guys that run that league and some of their teams have other jobs or companies? You dont think they are sharing resources and doing intracompany sponsorships? You probably know better than me so I will yield to you on it.
Is this new TRBL league likely going to run with much lower budgets than PBL teams do on average today? I would say most certainly yes without any direct knowledge, but the PBL has had its share of low budget teams, teams folding mid season, etc too, some of which affected Wilmington negatively. Frankly I would like the Sea Dawgs in the PBL but I do not think that it makes sense geographically. At one time it did but the teams nearby all went away. (Do that research too.) But I am not even sure why we are talking about the PBL. The TRBL looks to be a spring league, if anything a potential partner. The competitors might be the IBL, WBA, and CBL. Spring leagues are entirely different animals, particularly in the Southeast for lots of reasons. The PBL is effectively competing with the ABA, IBA, Dleague, maybe the CBA again, and handful of regional winter leagues.
I am definitely all for your right to be unimpressed with aspects of this new league or its individual teams (even my dawgs) but to have any credibility I think you need to acknowledge what these teams have had to deal with and apply an equal critique to where they came from. If you do that, and yes, do the research, my guess is will you get it, that is if you are truly objective.
I am glad to hear that you are a one percenter though we need more of you in minor league sports.
[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]
Frankly I would like the Sea Dawgs in the PBL but I do not think that it makes sense geographically.[/quote]
Well let's just say that the door was not closed by the PBL on that happening this season.
But why would you like to see that? Better basketball?
While it can be easily argued that my judgments of organizations are not necessary, that's why we're all here on OSC isn't it? To discuss.. And when a team doesn't have a mascot and/or a ticket sales staff it bugs me..
As you know, too often teams are formed without the first thought given to a professional approach to revenue generation. We all think the team will have support from the business community and that sponsorship dollars - while not automatic - are there for the taking. And that's completely false. As the SeaDawgs front office people will tell you, it's HARD to get businesses to cut checks..
So when I looked at the TRBL's three teams and saw their sponsors I immediately disagreed with the statement that they have "significant sponsors" in place. Because - and again, assuming their websites reflect their sponsors accurately - they have next to nothing..
Ticket sales are by far the more important aspect anyway.. It's not even close.. In fact if I was these teams with 100 fans going to a game (half of whom are related to the players) in the first year I would approach as many sponsors as possible with concepts that provide for ticket sales.. ie for a car dealer, have the dealer's package be 200 tickets for something like $2 each.. and give 4 tickets to the next 50 people who do a test drive.. or a furniture store, have their package contain tickets and train the sales staff to watch for cues such as people who enter their stores wearing NBA jerseys are likely basketball fans - so have some tickets ready to fork for free over as a gesture and hopefully help make the sale.. these are just two examples but there is a huge amount of opportunity..
Do whatever you can think of to have businesses distributing your tickets and give the impression that the sponsors are paying full price for them.. And basically provide the signage at your games for an extremely cost effective rate..
Yeah $2 is devaluing your ticket by 80% or more, but those people weren't going to the games anyway.. And they don't know what the sponsor paid for the ticket.. And the other thing I would do is to give tickets to a specific game, not a flex voucher to any game.. if you give them to a specific game it's far more likely to be used.. Then when they're at your games you obviously have to have a robust strategy to build the relationship from that point to get them back to a second game..
And to the businesses that help distribute your tickets? Send them a graphic for their break room they can pin up after every game with the score and your won-loss record and encourage them to come out as a staff to a game..
Another tangent. I know. Since you like me to spell out my points specifically: There's lots these teams can do that they do not do. That's not news. But what seems to be news is that they don't even have the basic infrastructure in place to do them. They have no people in place to generate revenue. For most teams I wouldn't even bother offering a critique, but I believe the SeaDawgs could be different. They're worth the effort of typing out posts like this.
Frankly I would like the Sea Dawgs in the PBL but I do not think that it makes sense geographically.[/quote]
Well let's just say that the door was not closed by the PBL on that happening this season.
But why would you like to see that? Better basketball?
Well like I said (twice so far) the SeaDawgs have many building blocks already in place. I talked about them because I don't think it's a waste of time to talk about them.I am definitely all for your right to be unimpressed with aspects of this new league or its individual teams (even my dawgs) but to have any credibility I think you need to acknowledge what these teams have had to deal with and apply an equal critique to where they came from. If you do that, and yes, do the research, my guess is will you get it, that is if you are truly objective.
While it can be easily argued that my judgments of organizations are not necessary, that's why we're all here on OSC isn't it? To discuss.. And when a team doesn't have a mascot and/or a ticket sales staff it bugs me..
As you know, too often teams are formed without the first thought given to a professional approach to revenue generation. We all think the team will have support from the business community and that sponsorship dollars - while not automatic - are there for the taking. And that's completely false. As the SeaDawgs front office people will tell you, it's HARD to get businesses to cut checks..
So when I looked at the TRBL's three teams and saw their sponsors I immediately disagreed with the statement that they have "significant sponsors" in place. Because - and again, assuming their websites reflect their sponsors accurately - they have next to nothing..
Ticket sales are by far the more important aspect anyway.. It's not even close.. In fact if I was these teams with 100 fans going to a game (half of whom are related to the players) in the first year I would approach as many sponsors as possible with concepts that provide for ticket sales.. ie for a car dealer, have the dealer's package be 200 tickets for something like $2 each.. and give 4 tickets to the next 50 people who do a test drive.. or a furniture store, have their package contain tickets and train the sales staff to watch for cues such as people who enter their stores wearing NBA jerseys are likely basketball fans - so have some tickets ready to fork for free over as a gesture and hopefully help make the sale.. these are just two examples but there is a huge amount of opportunity..
Do whatever you can think of to have businesses distributing your tickets and give the impression that the sponsors are paying full price for them.. And basically provide the signage at your games for an extremely cost effective rate..
Yeah $2 is devaluing your ticket by 80% or more, but those people weren't going to the games anyway.. And they don't know what the sponsor paid for the ticket.. And the other thing I would do is to give tickets to a specific game, not a flex voucher to any game.. if you give them to a specific game it's far more likely to be used.. Then when they're at your games you obviously have to have a robust strategy to build the relationship from that point to get them back to a second game..
And to the businesses that help distribute your tickets? Send them a graphic for their break room they can pin up after every game with the score and your won-loss record and encourage them to come out as a staff to a game..
Another tangent. I know. Since you like me to spell out my points specifically: There's lots these teams can do that they do not do. That's not news. But what seems to be news is that they don't even have the basic infrastructure in place to do them. They have no people in place to generate revenue. For most teams I wouldn't even bother offering a critique, but I believe the SeaDawgs could be different. They're worth the effort of typing out posts like this.
-
DazedAndAmused
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1066
- Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 2:36 am
Good Samaritans on OSC
Well, I appreciate you telling me you are trying to make a point, but just not sure you are getting there. Let me help you at least summarize so far:
1. You dont like the league name for reasons contrary to fact and public opinion and tendencies of national corporations. (See prior posts.)
2. You have tried to make scattered observations about the capabilities or execution of the leagues apparent ring leader based on suppositions from a list of names and titles on a website. Last post you have told us that this team doesnt have someone selling tickets or a mascot?
3. You are adamant about what you know (when you couldnt possibly IMO) about their sponsorships.
4. You tell us you only criticize as a good samaritan because you think think they have potential...my paraphrase. (That would be a first on OSC.)
5. Then you imply some insiders knowledge that the PBL may want or may have wanted the dawgs this season. (The dawgs should be honored!) I thought the PBL only recruits teams from the ABA ?
That pretty much do it? Still no real point that I see, but hey its America. But I am trying to follow your train of thought. Is it simply that these guys dont know what they are doing (and you think you have provided evidence to support that) and that they would be better off in the PBL rather than starting a new league? I think your arguments are weak and stretched for the former but you could be right about the latter, dont know. Just remember we saw that movie once before. It had a nice start but fizzled at the end. Maybe the sequel could be better.
Regarding your question about better basketball, I cant honestly say that the PBL offered better basketball. Per my recollection the dawgs had a much better record in the PBL than they have had in the CBL . so if better ball is measured by which league has beaten them the most i would have to say the CBL over the other 2 leagues they were in.
I would say however say that the PBL was MUCH better organized, and thats why i have generally been a proponent of the PBL they have had FEWER teams dropping out/deadbeat teams/etc, but unfortunately that doesnt seem to manifest itself in team retention. I still like the league because of the time, energy, and money they seem to put in to it and my guess is that the dawgs would have stayed if teams were around. But thats just conjecture on my part.
I do believe it is perfectly fair to suggest that this new TRBL thingy (eg, the title of the thread) will be done on a smaller scale and with lower budgets on average than your league, but the spring leagues generally are. But I also notice some 2012 PBL teams (admittedly from a quick look at a wiki page) are playing in high schools, juco\'s, and rec centers, so Im not totally convinced we are talking worlds apart here, especially when you take Rochester (arguably the best and most well funded minor league ball organization in the US) out of the equation.
1. You dont like the league name for reasons contrary to fact and public opinion and tendencies of national corporations. (See prior posts.)
2. You have tried to make scattered observations about the capabilities or execution of the leagues apparent ring leader based on suppositions from a list of names and titles on a website. Last post you have told us that this team doesnt have someone selling tickets or a mascot?
3. You are adamant about what you know (when you couldnt possibly IMO) about their sponsorships.
4. You tell us you only criticize as a good samaritan because you think think they have potential...my paraphrase. (That would be a first on OSC.)
5. Then you imply some insiders knowledge that the PBL may want or may have wanted the dawgs this season. (The dawgs should be honored!) I thought the PBL only recruits teams from the ABA ?
That pretty much do it? Still no real point that I see, but hey its America. But I am trying to follow your train of thought. Is it simply that these guys dont know what they are doing (and you think you have provided evidence to support that) and that they would be better off in the PBL rather than starting a new league? I think your arguments are weak and stretched for the former but you could be right about the latter, dont know. Just remember we saw that movie once before. It had a nice start but fizzled at the end. Maybe the sequel could be better.
Regarding your question about better basketball, I cant honestly say that the PBL offered better basketball. Per my recollection the dawgs had a much better record in the PBL than they have had in the CBL . so if better ball is measured by which league has beaten them the most i would have to say the CBL over the other 2 leagues they were in.
I would say however say that the PBL was MUCH better organized, and thats why i have generally been a proponent of the PBL they have had FEWER teams dropping out/deadbeat teams/etc, but unfortunately that doesnt seem to manifest itself in team retention. I still like the league because of the time, energy, and money they seem to put in to it and my guess is that the dawgs would have stayed if teams were around. But thats just conjecture on my part.
I do believe it is perfectly fair to suggest that this new TRBL thingy (eg, the title of the thread) will be done on a smaller scale and with lower budgets on average than your league, but the spring leagues generally are. But I also notice some 2012 PBL teams (admittedly from a quick look at a wiki page) are playing in high schools, juco\'s, and rec centers, so Im not totally convinced we are talking worlds apart here, especially when you take Rochester (arguably the best and most well funded minor league ball organization in the US) out of the equation.
[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]Well, I appreciate you telling me you are trying to make a point, but just not sure you are getting there.
[/quote]
I've written what? 3000 words? 5000 words? And I've failed to make a point.
I'm doing badly!
And I think they knew full well that messes will happen, but it was more important to rebuild the PBL quickly than it was to build it perfectly.. They were down to 1 team.. From their point of view they had to take some chances..
[/quote]
I've written what? 3000 words? 5000 words? And I've failed to make a point.
I'm doing badly!
Dude. Did you look at the list they had up there when the thread began. (Not sure if it's changed). There's no way those were significant cash paying sponsors.3. You are adamant about what you know (when you couldnt possibly IMO) about their sponsorships.
Let me tell you my take on the PBL and their CEO Brij Desai: They are extremely aggressive and left few stones unturned. They talked to lots of teams. Brij was brought on by Sev to rebuild the PBL as quickly as possible. Did he cut corners with some teams that were brought on? Probably. But as we've all seen with any construction site, or any time you've tried to build something - when you build something big you always make a mess, and you clean up the mess later.5. Then you imply some insiders knowledge that the PBL may want or may have wanted the dawgs this season. (The dawgs should be honored!) I thought the PBL only recruits teams from the ABA ?
And I think they knew full well that messes will happen, but it was more important to rebuild the PBL quickly than it was to build it perfectly.. They were down to 1 team.. From their point of view they had to take some chances..
I realized after I posted that this was a poor question from me. With so many expansion teams and no rosters set, it's impossible to know how the basketball will be.Regarding your question about better basketball, I cant honestly say that the PBL offered better basketball.
Time will tell. I think Rochester and Bloomington will be the marquee PBL franchises.. TRBL is still forming so it's impossible to say..Im not totally convinced we are talking worlds apart here, especially when you take Rochester (arguably the best and most well funded minor league ball organization in the US) out of the equation.
-
DazedAndAmused
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1066
- Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 2:36 am
Wow. Just wow.
Well, ok. Ill stop accusing you of not making any points because you have actually helped me make mine.
It is a simple one. You are living in a glass house which makes your points of criticism (which look mostly unsubstantiated, uninformed, or just off target) that much more peculiar, not to mention the reasons why you might waste the time offering them up. (I only associate you with the PBL because you seem to associate yourself, not to accuse you of anything.)
You have a league with all brand new teams plucked from another league that many love to malign. You have what, 25, 30 former teams? You admit to cutting corners and rushing. We cant really talk about the quality of basketball we both agree, although I have provided you with some data that could the support the quality has been higher in the last couple of years in the CBL than the years the dawgs were in the PBL. I would not claim that was due to the prowess of the CBL or the Sea Dawgs. In spring ball you get guys returning from overseas who are looking for opportunities to continue to play so you can often get higher quality players than you can during the winter & get them at a bargain .but hopefully you know that. But you brought the quality question up anyway, not me.
You give all of the justifications that the other leagues do for the moves they make (construction site example, had to build it fast, we know it wont be perfect, yada, yada, yada.) Maybe your guys had no choice, but nonetheless these moves wipe the pulpit out from under your feet.
Hear me again. I have been a proponent of your league. Actually, so has the other poster who has been contributing here. Your guys seem to have money and are more organized than many of the other winter options. But your guys burn through teams faster than Oprah knocks down flapjacks, seem to have trouble making friends, and look to have quite a bit of work in front of you. You will have to forgive us that arent seeing the recipe for success immediately in front of us.
In the end, your guys might be wildly successful, and the Carolina guys might fail miserably. Or, it may be the other way around. Or they might both fade away after they get tired of spending money (which may be the most likely result b/c I have no idea why either would being doing it anyway.) As you say we have one forming league with no track record (and I believe a different, regional model) and another one trying to pick up the pieces.
All in all though, you just have to see the irony in nearly all of your posts on this thread. If not, then wow. Just wow.
It is a simple one. You are living in a glass house which makes your points of criticism (which look mostly unsubstantiated, uninformed, or just off target) that much more peculiar, not to mention the reasons why you might waste the time offering them up. (I only associate you with the PBL because you seem to associate yourself, not to accuse you of anything.)
You have a league with all brand new teams plucked from another league that many love to malign. You have what, 25, 30 former teams? You admit to cutting corners and rushing. We cant really talk about the quality of basketball we both agree, although I have provided you with some data that could the support the quality has been higher in the last couple of years in the CBL than the years the dawgs were in the PBL. I would not claim that was due to the prowess of the CBL or the Sea Dawgs. In spring ball you get guys returning from overseas who are looking for opportunities to continue to play so you can often get higher quality players than you can during the winter & get them at a bargain .but hopefully you know that. But you brought the quality question up anyway, not me.
You give all of the justifications that the other leagues do for the moves they make (construction site example, had to build it fast, we know it wont be perfect, yada, yada, yada.) Maybe your guys had no choice, but nonetheless these moves wipe the pulpit out from under your feet.
Hear me again. I have been a proponent of your league. Actually, so has the other poster who has been contributing here. Your guys seem to have money and are more organized than many of the other winter options. But your guys burn through teams faster than Oprah knocks down flapjacks, seem to have trouble making friends, and look to have quite a bit of work in front of you. You will have to forgive us that arent seeing the recipe for success immediately in front of us.
In the end, your guys might be wildly successful, and the Carolina guys might fail miserably. Or, it may be the other way around. Or they might both fade away after they get tired of spending money (which may be the most likely result b/c I have no idea why either would being doing it anyway.) As you say we have one forming league with no track record (and I believe a different, regional model) and another one trying to pick up the pieces.
All in all though, you just have to see the irony in nearly all of your posts on this thread. If not, then wow. Just wow.
Last edited by DazedAndAmused on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
DazedAndAmused
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1066
- Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 2:36 am
OMG, the GUNNERS!
My bad then. I must have misinterpreted this:
[Well lets just say that the door was not closed by the PBL on that happening this season.]
It seemed logical to assume that by virtue of this statement you are in the know, some how, some way.
But either way, you must be absolutely outraged, incensed, totally beside yourself about a team being talked about in another thread, the Charleston GUNNERS!!!
Dont these guys know that guns kill people? Are they crazy? Arent they trying to get kids to show up? No sponsor could ever afford to be associated with anything like this! What are these guys doing? How can the league possibly allow this? These guys deserve the strongest rebuke possible!
Hopefully you can go set them straight on that side of the forum. I think the douchebags need to make an appearance!
Sorry, couldnt resist. We will see how things pan out for all of these guys. I hope they both can achieve something. From what I can tell there are dedicated people on both sides.
[Well lets just say that the door was not closed by the PBL on that happening this season.]
It seemed logical to assume that by virtue of this statement you are in the know, some how, some way.
But either way, you must be absolutely outraged, incensed, totally beside yourself about a team being talked about in another thread, the Charleston GUNNERS!!!
Dont these guys know that guns kill people? Are they crazy? Arent they trying to get kids to show up? No sponsor could ever afford to be associated with anything like this! What are these guys doing? How can the league possibly allow this? These guys deserve the strongest rebuke possible!
Hopefully you can go set them straight on that side of the forum. I think the douchebags need to make an appearance!
Sorry, couldnt resist. We will see how things pan out for all of these guys. I hope they both can achieve something. From what I can tell there are dedicated people on both sides.
[quote=""DazedAndAmused""]But either way, you must be absolutely outraged, incensed, totally beside yourself about a team being talked about in another thread, the Charleston GUNNERS!!!
Dont these guys know that guns kill people? Are they crazy? Arent they trying to get kids to show up? [/quote]
Even worse, the Dayton Air Strikers! Surely children should not be playing around air strikes!
Dont these guys know that guns kill people? Are they crazy? Arent they trying to get kids to show up? [/quote]
Even worse, the Dayton Air Strikers! Surely children should not be playing around air strikes!
Hopefully it works out well for everyone. Stronger league management is always a plus.Sorry, couldnt resist. We will see how things pan out for all of these guys. I hope they both can achieve something. From what I can tell there are dedicated people on both sides.
-
DazedAndAmused
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1066
- Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 2:36 am
