Does the avg fan care

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VinnyTheViper
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Post by VinnyTheViper » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:41 am

[quote=""exit322""]Given the proximity of cities in the two leagues' regions, it would not be completely unfair to insinuate the PIFL is more spread out than the IFL.[/quote]

REALLY? The two PIFL teams with the most distance between them is Lehigh Valley and Albany, according to Rand McNally, the distance between those two markets is 980 miles. The distance between the IFL's Tri-Cities and Texas markets is 1981 miles and Tri-Cities and Chicago is 1922 miles, both are more than double the distance of the worst case scenario in in the PIFL. The IFL has a setup that is just about as bad as what the AIFA had when it had East and West designations.

VinnyTheViper
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Post by VinnyTheViper » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:35 am

[quote=""LewInDenver""]9.0... I dont think so. If based off of last season, the PIFL lost 29% of it's membership in the off-season. I know Knoxville hasnt folded yet but you have hinted that it's more then likely and Louisiana. Thats 1 more then the LSFL which you rate as a 3. The IFL returns ALL the teams that played last season. I would rate them and the IFL as both a solid 7 each. You cant put them 1 point below the AFL just because of the market size and value of the franchises are not apples to apples, and to the point of this thread, 90% of the fans that attend the AFL have no idea what the af2 was or care. They have 1, soon to be 2 National TV deals, that alone values more then 1 point. I know this is the PIFL thread but seriously it's not 2 better then the IFL and only 1 less then the AFL. KISS alone is worth a 7 by itself for national attention. Competition wise it's a dead heat. I agree the average fan doesnt know the difference or probably doesnt even know about the other leagues throughout the country, good or bad. Just MHO.[/quote]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. As far as the AFL goes, ever since the rebirth, it has been all about making the public think that the AFL is back when in reality what resurfaced was simply the af2, the ultimate shell game. True, they have a television contract, but at what cost to the owners? That television contract costs each owner six figures per season. How many owners has the league bankrupted over the years with the exhorbetent cost structure? The new AFL has already ground through 7 markets in its short rebirth history. Another point, the LA Kiss is just another gimmick, as long as they have Brett Bouchey on board, that pretty much negates anything that Gene Simmon's tongue can do for that team. Bouchey is now on his third AFL franchise since the rebirth (Arizona, Orlando, Los Angeles). This league is being run with smoke and mirrors, there are about five good franchises in the league, the other nine are being run more like they are supposed to be a tax write off.

As far as the PIFL goes, maybe 9.0 is a little high, 8.0 might be more reasonable, the fact of the matter is that when the PIFL had problems with Louisiana, the league stepped up and made sure that legitmate players were utilized for all remaining games. And if I remember correctly, the same thing was not the case for the IFL when it came to the Chicago franchise last season. I have not said anything specifically about Knoxville, certainly nothing that would indicate that the team has folded. I only made comments in a general sense that there would be changes in the franchise lineup for 2014, which Harrisburg and Trenton were two examples. Are there still more lineup changes coming for the PIFL for 2014? Yes, almost assuredly, but it is not my place to announce those details, it is the league's job to do that.

The IFL also has a geographic problem that I do not see being resolved anytime in the near future. Tri-Cities, Wyoming, and Texas are pretty isolated from the rest of the mid-western teams in the league. There is no way that the IFL can even come close to PIFL travel cost model when teams are traveling double the miles that PIFL teams are. The PIFL fixed some of its travel cost issues from last season by bringing in Harrisburg and Trenton.

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Post by Hockey » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:28 pm

I don't think the AFL gets a 10 if 10 is the best, more like a 5. UIFL and AIF get a 0 and the rest fall in between.

As for the original question. Not many of the teams are around long enough to establish a fan base. A team having fans is a prestigious accomplishment. You could make the argument that those who have reached the fan status are conscious that this sport has a level of fluidity to it. So they probably just care if the team kicks off.

exit322
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Post by exit322 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:07 am

[quote=""VinnyTheViper""]REALLY? The two PIFL teams with the most distance between them is Lehigh Valley and Albany, according to Rand McNally, the distance between those two markets is 980 miles. The distance between the IFL's Tri-Cities and Texas markets is 1981 miles and Tri-Cities and Chicago is 1922 miles, both are more than double the distance of the worst case scenario in in the PIFL. The IFL has a setup that is just about as bad as what the AIFA had when it had East and West designations.[/quote]

If you take a straight line between Lehigh Valley and Albany and deviate 100 miles in either direction from that line, how many potential PIFL markets (theorizing size of market and availability of arena only) are there?

If you take a straight line between Chicago and Tri-Cities with the same deviation, or even a little larger, how many are there? I think you'll find more potential PIFL markets, and as such, a situation relatively more spread out. If you're looking for a regional league and have your core in the southeast, Pennsylvania is as spread out from that as Chicago is to eastern Washington.

Of course in nominal terms the PIFL will always be a closer geographic league than the IFL. But they also play in markets that have multiple potential markets within 100 miles of each team. The IFL doesn't have a lot of that.
Last edited by exit322 on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LewInDenver
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Post by LewInDenver » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:07 am

When you have been around for 27 years, you are the defacto industry leader. Use the McDonald measuring stick when drawing this conclusion, they dont make the best Hamburgers, but they sell the most and have been around the longest. EVERY fast food Franchise is measured against them. Bouchy's rep is shaky Ill give you that. But do you really believe he is bigger then Gene Simmons? Come on Viper your let letting your PIFL bias come through. KISS already has 7K on Facebook, The PIFL has 1/4 that much as a league and they (KISS) have only been around 7 weeks. KISS will keep Bouchy in check, Bouchy is a minority owner at best. You need to get a map, Casper is only 2 1/2 hours from the Ice and 5 1/2 hrs from Nebraska., not a island by any stretch in a bus league. Ill give you Tri-Cities and Texas and the league footprint, BUT they are BACK and Ill give them a higher grade for that then a league losing 29% of the leagues membership any day. Failing doesnt get you a higher grade in any of the schools I went to. Lets look at franchise longevity, The PIFL is at 22 cumulative years of operation to date. Thats good, but Sioux Falls and Wyoming are at 26 just between them 2. The rest of the IFL is 40 cumulative seasons of operation, 66 total! Weighing that into the equation can not be ignored or discounted. The IFL has 3 teams over a decade old, the oldest PIFL franchise (Columbus) isnt even half as old as either Sioux Falls or Wyoming (13 each) and the IFL has 6 teams older then Columbus, thats over half IFL. One could make a case for the IFL to be rated higher. The numbers dont lie. The PIFL is good, but no better then the IFL and Vise-a-verse, IMHO.

Just in case you wanted the numbers
PIFL IFL
Alabama 3.............Sioux Falls 13
Albany 3................Wyoming 13
Columbus 6............Colorado 7
Knoxville 2.............Tri-Cities 9
Lehigh Valley 4*......Chicago 7
Richmond 4............Green Bay 11
.............................Nebraska 3
.............................Texas 1**
.............................Cedar Rapids 2
*First 2 years in IFL
**No credit for the Wranglers 2 seasons
Last edited by LewInDenver on Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: had to go potty
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VinnyTheViper
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Post by VinnyTheViper » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:13 pm

Gene Simmons was also hired by Indycar to be the official spokesman for the series 3 years ago for their "I Am Indy" promotion, the contract was terminated after one season due to that fact that Gene's exposure made no difference in the TV ratings for the series. Is 7000 likes on a facebook page mean that the team has sold 7000 tickets??? Not hardly, not convinced that social media is any indication of who will actually show up at games. Likes are free, tickets are not. Being that Gene is at least part owner of this operation, I am sure that it will result in some bump in ticket sales, after all it is ownership and not spokesmanship, but simply plugging a music icon into a sports league does not necessarily mean that people will be beating the doors down, Indycar found that out the hard way.

VinnyTheViper
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Post by VinnyTheViper » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:28 pm

[quote=""LewInDenver""]
Just in case you wanted the numbers
PIFL IFL
Alabama 3.............Sioux Falls 13
Albany 3................Wyoming 13
Columbus 6............Colorado 7
Knoxville 2.............Tri-Cities 9
Lehigh Valley 4*......Chicago 7
Richmond 4............Green Bay 11
.............................Nebraska 3
.............................Texas 1**
.............................Cedar Rapids 2
*First 2 years in IFL
**No credit for the Wranglers 2 seasons[/quote]

If you are going to mix your numbers across leagues, then Alabama has been around for 15 seasons and Albany for 11 seasons of continuous operation. Alabama was in the af2 for 9 seasons, AFL for 1 season, UIF for 1 season, SIFL for 1 seasons, and PIFL for 3 seasons. Albany was in the af2 for 6 seasons, SIFL for 2 seasons, and PIFL for 3 seasons. Green Bay was an af2 team long before it was ever in the IFL, 7 years in the af2 and only 4 years in the IFL. Tri-Cities also had a stint in the af2 after it was in the NIFL and before it was in the IFL, 2 years in the IFL, 3 years in the af2, and 4 years in the IFL. Sioux Falls was in the NIFL and UIF before it was in the IFL, 4 years in the NIFL, 4 years in the UIF, and 5 years in the IFL. Some of the numbers you are reporting for the IFL years of service were actually in other leagues, you can't reort apples for one league and oranges for the other league and have the comparison mean anything.


Years of Service in the Current League, this is apples to apples:

PIFL IFL
Alabama 3.............Sioux Falls 5
Albany 3................Wyoming 4
Columbus 3............Colorado 4
Knoxville 2.............Tri-Cities 4
Lehigh Valley 1......Chicago 4
Richmond 3............Green Bay 4
.............................Nebraska 3
.............................Texas 1
.............................Cedar Rapids 2

PIFL AVG = 2.50 years/franchise
IFL AVG = 3.45 years/franchise

When you put this in the proper context, the leagues do not look that different.
Last edited by VinnyTheViper on Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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LewInDenver
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Post by LewInDenver » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:49 pm

Which is it Gene Simmons or Brett Bouchy? Ok, we will use your numbers. 15 years for the PIFL compared to 31 for the IFL. If your tying to sell this as apples to apples you must be in politics. It's twice as long. You've gone from 2 points better to they not that different. Glad to see your a reasonable person, wink wink. either way both leagues have brought the Indoor game some stability. The PIFL has been raising the bar every year they have been in existence and the IFL has righted the ship and have equally strong ownership in place. And lastly, the average fan doesnt care.

good chatting with ya.
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Post by hosbogs » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:46 pm

Any update on if the PIFL will have a tv contract with a game of the week?



I care what league the Steelhawks are in......the other higher percentage at the game could care less. As long as they see a good game and have more wins then losses then they seem to be happy.

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Post by coachingubigr » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:49 pm

I would give the AIF and the UIFL 0's as well

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