Canadian Speculation

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E-TownCaps
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Canadian Speculation

Post by E-TownCaps » Fri May 18, 2012 6:55 pm

Since no canadian teams will part of the 2012 NAL season, I thought I would start a thread on what the canadian teams may do in the future. After all that's what these forums are for.

Where do I start, It sucks not having pro baseball in Edmonton/Calgary but you take the bad with the good. A year off from pro baseball in Calgary might be the best thing that ever happened. Bringing in a new ownership group that can re energize the Calgary market is a must. Calgary has to be marketed correctly, you can't sit back and think the fans will just show up, you need to work at it. The Calgary situation reminds me of the Edmonton situation in 2009, after Daryl Katz bought the Cracker Cat franchise and changed the image, the Capitals have been one of the better indy baseball teams in North America.

I don't know how many of you seen the video when the Capitals announced they suspended operations for 2012 but if you look at it two things that stuck out were "our standard grew above the league they were playing in" & "the road ahead has to be better than what were in". In my mind the options are endless for pro baseball in Edmonton. Stick with the NAL, get a memebership in the American Association, make a western canadian league, make a canadian league...

Who know's what will happen, but I think by the time October/November rolls around we should know.


Another thing I want to touch on is how to tell how legit a independent baseball league is. The best independent baseball leagues in my mind are: Atlantic League(AtL), American Association(AA), Frontier League(FL), and Can-Am League(CA). If you follow indy baseball you will notice the AtL plays from April to October, and about a week after the season the schedule for the next season is released, along with the teams that will play. The AA, FL, and CA usually release all the teams and schedule info in the month of October or November, giving teams 5-6 months to get things ready. I just hope the Canadian teams can be apart of something like this, not what has happened the last 4-5 years.

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Post by G Lindenbach » Fri May 18, 2012 8:32 pm

With the new AWBL and the old NAL Northern Division fighting for teams in the western USA in 2013 I think that the former NAL Canadian teams have become orphaned - so, Edmonton, Calgary and Fort Mac have almost no choice but to seek entry into the AA. Having said that, here are my percentage odds on what might happen as of May 18, 2012:

join AA in 2013 .............................. 50%
stay dark in 2013 ........................... 30%
create new Canadian only league ...... 20%
rejoin NAL Northern division .............. 0%
join AWBL ..................................... 0%
join AtL ........................................ 0%

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Post by G Lindenbach » Fri May 18, 2012 8:53 pm

[quote=""E-TownCaps""]Who know's what will happen, but I think by the time October/November rolls around we should know.[/quote]

I think we should know by the middle of September at the latest - otherwise, I think there will be no pro ball in western Canada in 2013.

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Post by Shootmaster_44 » Sat May 19, 2012 9:40 pm

I would think for the American Association to take on Edmonton and Fort Mac, they would need a few more teams to come along with them.

Calgary would be essential, but I don't think the ownership group from the Vipers are interested in starting a team again. If a decent ownership group could be found in Calgary, they would be ideal.

Now if Calgary couldn't be reactivated, either Medicine Hat or Lethbridge would be a good runner-up. Both of those cities have decent parks and had Pioneer League teams once and now have WMBL teams. I don't know the details of the WMBL leases with the ballparks though. Sometimes in smaller centres, teams like the WMBL (or WHL in hockey) have an inflated view of themselves and have it written into their leases that they have exclusive use unless a team of a higher level (likely AA or AAA in baseball's case and NHL in hockey's) moves to the city. So there may not be a facility that is usable.

Regardless, for Alberta to get into the AA, I'd think a couple teams in Saskatchewan would be necessary too. Neither Saskatoon nor Regina have great facilities for pro ball. I grew up in Saskatoon and have been to Cairns Field many, many times. It needs some major work. The drainage needs to be improved, a few times every year WMBL games are postponed not due to it actually raining, but that it had rained overnight and the dugouts are flooded. But I don't think the AA would take an Alberta island without some teams in Saskatchewan.

I also think starting a new league would be a bad idea. Fans in many cities seem turned off by a brand new league. I know in Saskatoon, that an established, stable league would be an easier sell than a new start-up. Many of these markets have been burnt by fly-by-night leagues in the past and the fans are turned off to them. Plus, unless the AA said no to expanding by say 4 or 6 teams, why wouldn't the teams simply join an existing league? If they don't meet the criteria for the AA (aside from perhaps facility problems), why would you start your own league to include them? That is largely what the majority of the newer splinter Indy leagues were based off of and it simply spells disaster.

Obviously, the most ideal solution would be for the Katz Group to find an AAA team and move it to Edmonton and affiliate itself with the Blue Jays. But that seems like less and less of a possibility. It would be nice to hear from the Capitals on their progress, but I suppose there might not be anything to report. I realize that mid-to-late September is unpredictable as far as weather goes, but it is too bad that the Katz Group didn't put a bid in for Canada's qualification group for the World Baseball Classic. If they could front that and put on a decent event that was well supported, even if 2013 is out, it would have endeared them to MLB and MiLB for any possible movement of a AAA franchise.

Would a Pioneer League team be a possibility? Geographically, Edmonton is sort of in the right area for the Pioneer League. I'm sure any move into affiliated ball would mean Fort Mac is shut out, but at this point really is there much to suggest that they are even able to make a go of it for 2013? Sure, they could be a travel team, but really that doesn't mean squat. In theory, I could go and put together a team of players who'd only play road games, call them Los Angeles, Mexico City or whatever and it doesn't mean that these players would ever see the city, nor would that city have any affinity towards the team.

I guess the final solution is that the Capitals stop thinking pro ball and throw some money into making the WMBL the Canadian version of the Cape Cod League. Turn the league from the obscure college summer league that doesn't usually attract any top MLB prospects into a league that routinely has at least some of the MLB top end prospects playing in it and the stands are generally filled with golf shirts featuring MLB logos (i.e. pro scouts). If Junior Hockey can sell itself on the theme of see tomorrow stars today, the WMBL could too if it was able to bring in top end talent. If the WMBL could say come see Player X that in two or three years will be the top of the highlight reel on Sportscentre, fans would come out to the park. Now granted, college summer leagues aren't quite the same as the WHL. Top MLB prospects don't necessarily have to play in them to go pro, whereas most top end Canadian NHL prospects have to play Major Junior to make the big league.

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Post by Eddie » Sun May 20, 2012 12:21 am

[quote=""E-TownCaps""]For some reason I don't think the Canadian teams are done with the NAL. Short term they may have to work with the NAL. It might not be with the North teams but rather the South division. :confused: [/quote]
No one HAS to work with the NAL. They could do something out of the box like field a team but no league. Where they challenge teams from all the leagues. Barnstorming basically. But that's way out of the box.

[quote=""E-TownCaps""]To myself the situation with the American Association looks like this.

The AA has a commissioner in Miles Wolff who is very knowledgeable in independent baseball. The AA has a board of directors who vote on expansion. After all it's up to the owners in the league if they want to travel to Alberta. As it stands the AA is playing with 13 teams this season, and playing an inter locking schedule with the Can-Am League, which has 5 teams. Both leagues are ran by Miles Wolff. So if the AA wants to add a team for 2013 to even out the schedule, it very well could be Edmonton. Two things the AA look for are a strong ownership group & a good ballpark, Edmonton has both. The same can't be said for Calgary, who has no owner, and Foothills Stadium would work, but might need a few upgrades. Fort McMurray has a owner, but no baseball stadium. The ballpark in Fort Mac is supposed to be ready for 2014, but I'm starting to doubt that. Another thing about the ballpark in Fort Mac is the seating capacity, it's supposed to have 3,000 fixed seats, and another 1,000 on the grass berm. In my mind that would make it the smallest ballpark in the AA... I think every ballpark in the AA right now seats 5,000 +.

So you could see Edmonton join in 2013, with Calgary & Fort Mac joining in 2014. The only thing holding it back right now is can the AA make it work geographically.

Side note the AA is the league these teams need to join. Travel costs would be way cheaper, as you wouldn't have to fly to every city. Just looking at the crowds in the AA this opening weekend, and wow it's pretty impressive most teams are 3,000 +. I see Hilo in the NAL is looking to average 500 :rolleyes: [/quote]Calgary has ownership ready supposedly. Not sure if it's the same ownership group or not.

And if Fort Mc has a small ballpark it won't really matter. It's not like it's 800 seats or anything, 4000 works fine.

Fort Mc has actually said something about possibly being a road team in 2013. With the AA having an odd number of teams and Winnipeg already in the league, that gives a 4 team loop if they would let the 3 in.

[quote=""Shootmaster_44""]
Obviously, the most ideal solution would be for the Katz Group to find an AAA team and move it to Edmonton and affiliate itself with the Blue Jays. But that seems like less and less of a possibility. It would be nice to hear from the Capitals on their progress, but I suppose there might not be anything to report. I realize that mid-to-late September is unpredictable as far as weather goes, but it is too bad that the Katz Group didn't put a bid in for Canada's qualification group for the World Baseball Classic. If they could front that and put on a decent event that was well supported, even if 2013 is out, it would have endeared them to MLB and MiLB for any possible movement of a AAA franchise.

Would a Pioneer League team be a possibility? Geographically, Edmonton is sort of in the right area for the Pioneer League. I'm sure any move into affiliated ball would mean Fort Mac is shut out, but at this point really is there much to suggest that they are even able to make a go of it for 2013? Sure, they could be a travel team, but really that doesn't mean squat. In theory, I could go and put together a team of players who'd only play road games, call them Los Angeles, Mexico City or whatever and it doesn't mean that these players would ever see the city, nor would that city have any affinity towards the team.
[/quote]
Kind of ironic that the Blue Jays AAA affiliate is the one most likely to move unless that development gets funded. There might not be anywhere to move yet.

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Post by Eddie » Mon May 21, 2012 12:10 am

[quote=""E-TownCaps""]Eddie is the owner in Calgary still Jeff Gidney? If not it could be Russ & Darren Parker or the Calgary Flames ownership group who own every other sports team in Calgary.

The ballpark in Fort Mac might be small but I do agree they will be fine, I could see them packing that ballpark 3,000 + every night... nothing else to do in the Mac.

People always talk about how far away the Alberta teams are but for myself it's no different than the South Division in the AA. All the teams are in Texas and spread out from everyone else. Laredo's closest opponent is Grande Prairie which is 7 hours away. If you could group 3 or 4 teams from Alberta & Saskatchewan there is no reason why it couldn't work. All your asking it Winnipeg, Fargo, St Paul, Lincoln, Sioux Falls, Sioux City etc.. to make one trip. It's alot easier when you have a group of teams together. :-D

American Association League Map:

http://www.americanassociationbaseball. ... ue-map.php[/quote]I really don't know who the owner is. Fort Mc owner mentioned that there is ownership for the potential Calgary team.

And they aren't THAT far but if it's 1 team then it is. That why everyone who thinks it can work mentioned 3-4 teams which only makes sense with gas continuing to go up and everything else because of it.

[quote=""E-TownCaps""]Triple-A baseball is done in Edmonton. The PCL has shifted more to the southern part of the US, the closest team to Edmonton would be Tacoma. The only way it would work is if another Canadian city close to Edmonton got a triple-A franchise (Winnipeg).

The Jays want to move there triple-A team back to the International League. Buffalo, Rochester would be the obivous choice's. I also heard a rumor that Ottawa could be the new home for the Jays triple-A affilate. They have the stadium, and had triple-A ball from 1993-2007. Ottawa never had the best fan support for triple-A ball, but if the Jays were the affiliate it could be huge for baseball in Canada.[/quote]

The Jays have the team in Vegas. So there is a team that could be moved. As soon as someone builds a ballpark that team is gone. I don't think Edmonton will get the team back but the ownership there does seem to have the cash to do it.

Ottawa is aiming for AA and supposedly has someone which is probably Binghamton.

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Post by pilots13 » Mon May 21, 2012 10:56 pm

My take on the Canadian teams is they have to both have a nice clump of teams, and decent stadiums if they want to get into a "respectable league" (aka AA or Atl, etc). Edmonton has it, and I think Calgary has a good stadium (though lacks ownership). Ft McMurray feels like a NAL sham vs a real team. Maybe they get their act together, but till they have a good stadium, I don't consider them anything more than the WABL or AWBL or whatever that failure is called.

If at least Calgary got another team I can see the AA letting them and Edmonton in. But it would be hard pressed for the AA to let, say just Edmonton in. That said, I think they should let them in regardless of the Calgary situation, simply because you know you have a sold ownership group there, and, much like the AtlL and Sugarland, you can probably assume more teams in the area will come around in a year or two.

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Post by skippy » Tue May 22, 2012 11:13 pm

Tucson to Vancouver and would become the Blue Jays affiliate, as Toronto is trying to put all minor league teams in Canada.

Vegas could possibly become LA again, as Mandalay is part of the ownership group in Vegas and now in Los Angeles. Or would become the Padres again.

Albuquerque would either become the Padres affiliate or remain the Dodgers.

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Post by Josh1985 » Tue May 22, 2012 11:43 pm

The latest update is that Ottawa is looking to get a AA team for 2013. Might end up being part of the Blue Jays system.

http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/C ... OttawaHome
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Post by Eddie » Wed May 23, 2012 12:09 am

[quote=""skippy""]Tucson to Vancouver and would become the Blue Jays affiliate, as Toronto is trying to put all minor league teams in Canada.

Vegas could possibly become LA again, as Mandalay is part of the ownership group in Vegas and now in Los Angeles. Or would become the Padres again.

Albuquerque would either become the Padres affiliate or remain the Dodgers.[/quote]
Tucson isn't going to Vancouver. There is no plan in place for that.

And Mandalay has nothing to do with Dodgers or Padres or anyone else. The affiliation dance as of now probably leaves Toronto in Vegas. I doubt anyone is going to give up their current affiliation to take on that mess in Vegas.

[quote=""Josh1985""]The latest update is that Ottawa is looking to get a AA team for 2013. Might end up being part of the Blue Jays system.

http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/C ... OttawaHome[/quote]
Blue Jays have the Fisher Cats who are pretty popular and close enough to Canada that they might not entertain that affiliation change but you never know. Makes sense but there are a lot of moving parts for that to happen.

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