NABL 2012 Season
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Actually, I misread pilots post. The "dodgy" league I was referring to was the NAL not the Atlantic. That being said, I think expansion for them in California won't work. How are they going to get public funding for a ballpark in this economic environment? Private money?-fugetaboutit. Everyone in the private sector knows what money losers those stadiums are.
The Atlantic has some strong teams and some sick teams, like every league,but they are in a tougher bind with the need of a bigger stadium (they claim, but that may change in the future) and bigger markets, and no good locations left out east.
The Atlantic has some strong teams and some sick teams, like every league,but they are in a tougher bind with the need of a bigger stadium (they claim, but that may change in the future) and bigger markets, and no good locations left out east.
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[quote=""Eddie""]There are actually several good markets in the east.
But we're not here to discuss the AtL.
Ballparks are still getting funded. California just has that RDA thing that came down not too long ago.[/quote]
If these markets are so good, why are they still available?
Affiliated ballparks are still being funded-not so much indy. Even the Saints, one of the most successful indy teams of all time, are having a very tough time getting funding, and they are willing to put their own money into the project.
Back to the NAL, are they going to get cash strapped cities to build expensive stadiums for their semi pro league? Probably not. Without decent stadiums, they will never make any money. So this project seems doomed, just like it's predecessors. The stadium is the draw, not the team. If they continue to play at college fields (or worse) they will never amount to anything.
Indy teams are in a catch 22 at this point-they need a nice stadium to prosper, but the revenue and benefit to the host city don't justify building it. In the general area of where I live, there are three very nice indy stadiums. Would any of them be built under the present economic environment? Not a chance.
But we're not here to discuss the AtL.
Ballparks are still getting funded. California just has that RDA thing that came down not too long ago.[/quote]
If these markets are so good, why are they still available?
Affiliated ballparks are still being funded-not so much indy. Even the Saints, one of the most successful indy teams of all time, are having a very tough time getting funding, and they are willing to put their own money into the project.
Back to the NAL, are they going to get cash strapped cities to build expensive stadiums for their semi pro league? Probably not. Without decent stadiums, they will never make any money. So this project seems doomed, just like it's predecessors. The stadium is the draw, not the team. If they continue to play at college fields (or worse) they will never amount to anything.
Indy teams are in a catch 22 at this point-they need a nice stadium to prosper, but the revenue and benefit to the host city don't justify building it. In the general area of where I live, there are three very nice indy stadiums. Would any of them be built under the present economic environment? Not a chance.
Need a league to put the teams in. Can't just build a park and let it sit. Since I have personally talked to a lot of people in these cities, the interest is there.
Saints are asking for $50M. There is a HUGE difference there.
Grand Prairie, Laredo, Sugar Land, Waldorf, Normal, Rockland...they get funded.
Even the NAL had talks with Orange County for a new ballpark. you can play at college parks (Lincoln, etc,) But they have to actually be ballparks and not just fields with lights. Nothing wrong with Chico, Fullerton, San Diego ballparks but they need to have concessions and all that. They were charging major league prices for food, Yankee prices. There was no way people would come back for that.
When you play at San Rafael in an 800 seat ballpark, that's a problem.
Saints are asking for $50M. There is a HUGE difference there.
Grand Prairie, Laredo, Sugar Land, Waldorf, Normal, Rockland...they get funded.
Even the NAL had talks with Orange County for a new ballpark. you can play at college parks (Lincoln, etc,) But they have to actually be ballparks and not just fields with lights. Nothing wrong with Chico, Fullerton, San Diego ballparks but they need to have concessions and all that. They were charging major league prices for food, Yankee prices. There was no way people would come back for that.
When you play at San Rafael in an 800 seat ballpark, that's a problem.
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Still waiting to hear about your great untapped eastern markets.
Saint's funding fell through. A lot of money for sure-does that mean it doesn't count in the discussion?
Some of your examples of teams getting funding for parks are a bit old. Waldorf-2008, Grand Prairie-2008, Normal-2010.
In Ramapo, the referendum for the bond issue was defeated by and almost 2/1 ratio, but they went a head and did it anyway, against the wishes of the people who will be stuck paying for it. That these projects almost always lose money and fail to deliver on their promises of economic growth-that's years down the road and not their concern.
Just because some city officials "have talks" about stadiums means nothing. Lots of them would love to build stadiums or whatever and make themselves and their connections of lawyers, contractors and consultants lots of money. Doesn't mean it has any real chance of happening.
It looks like if your league has to expand to survive, and perhaps it does, Texas may be your best bet. It fits the bill in many ways. Whether it's a viable plan or not is another question, but it's probably the best option at this point.
Saint's funding fell through. A lot of money for sure-does that mean it doesn't count in the discussion?
Some of your examples of teams getting funding for parks are a bit old. Waldorf-2008, Grand Prairie-2008, Normal-2010.
In Ramapo, the referendum for the bond issue was defeated by and almost 2/1 ratio, but they went a head and did it anyway, against the wishes of the people who will be stuck paying for it. That these projects almost always lose money and fail to deliver on their promises of economic growth-that's years down the road and not their concern.
Just because some city officials "have talks" about stadiums means nothing. Lots of them would love to build stadiums or whatever and make themselves and their connections of lawyers, contractors and consultants lots of money. Doesn't mean it has any real chance of happening.
It looks like if your league has to expand to survive, and perhaps it does, Texas may be your best bet. It fits the bill in many ways. Whether it's a viable plan or not is another question, but it's probably the best option at this point.
You do not need a shiny new 6000 seat ballpark to make it in indy baseball. What you need is a quality product both on and off the field.
I'm from St Paul, and have followed the Saints, Northern League, and now AA for the past 20 years. When the NoL was founded they had anything but shiny new ballparks. I think Sioux City had built a new one, but everyone else played in whatever decent sided park was available. Once all those teams were sucesses (well, outside of Rochester), that's when the new stadiums and remodels started (SF, Win, etc).
The Saints have played in Midway Stadium the past 20 years. That park was built in the 80's (a good 10+ years before the NoL was conceived) for college and legion ball. Then the Saints came in, made a name for themselves with quality teams, and an entertaining event for people to go to. They've expanded Midway some 15 years ago, and in recent years have pushed to finally get a shiny new park. So new park does not equal necessary for success
As for the NAL, if they can create a demand for their product with good play and good entertainment, then SR will survive with an 800 seat ballpark, and get momentum for the city to help build a 5000 seat ballpark for them. It's tough to get any stadium money passed these days (trust me, I've been watching first hand the insanity of the Vikings Stadium here). But if you have a quality product and get the community excited for it, it makes passing something, especially a few thousand seat community type ballpark, much easier.
I'm from St Paul, and have followed the Saints, Northern League, and now AA for the past 20 years. When the NoL was founded they had anything but shiny new ballparks. I think Sioux City had built a new one, but everyone else played in whatever decent sided park was available. Once all those teams were sucesses (well, outside of Rochester), that's when the new stadiums and remodels started (SF, Win, etc).
The Saints have played in Midway Stadium the past 20 years. That park was built in the 80's (a good 10+ years before the NoL was conceived) for college and legion ball. Then the Saints came in, made a name for themselves with quality teams, and an entertaining event for people to go to. They've expanded Midway some 15 years ago, and in recent years have pushed to finally get a shiny new park. So new park does not equal necessary for success
As for the NAL, if they can create a demand for their product with good play and good entertainment, then SR will survive with an 800 seat ballpark, and get momentum for the city to help build a 5000 seat ballpark for them. It's tough to get any stadium money passed these days (trust me, I've been watching first hand the insanity of the Vikings Stadium here). But if you have a quality product and get the community excited for it, it makes passing something, especially a few thousand seat community type ballpark, much easier.
[quote=""J.J. Smith""]Still waiting to hear about your great untapped eastern markets.
Saint's funding fell through. A lot of money for sure-does that mean it doesn't count in the discussion?
Some of your examples of teams getting funding for parks are a bit old. Waldorf-2008, Grand Prairie-2008, Normal-2010.
In Ramapo, the referendum for the bond issue was defeated by and almost 2/1 ratio, but they went a head and did it anyway, against the wishes of the people who will be stuck paying for it. That these projects almost always lose money and fail to deliver on their promises of economic growth-that's years down the road and not their concern.
Just because some city officials "have talks" about stadiums means nothing. Lots of them would love to build stadiums or whatever and make themselves and their connections of lawyers, contractors and consultants lots of money. Doesn't mean it has any real chance of happening.
It looks like if your league has to expand to survive, and perhaps it does, Texas may be your best bet. It fits the bill in many ways. Whether it's a viable plan or not is another question, but it's probably the best option at this point.[/quote]
I could go into specifics but I won't. These are cities I have first hand experience with and I will leave it at that.
$50M for an indy ballpark is a lot to ask for. Even the AtL doesn't ask for $50M ballparks. Most people still think indy ball isn't as good as affiliated and all that so there is less of a chance of a $50M ballpark passing then a $20M ballpark.
2008 and 2010 are still under the same economic conditions the country has been in for years.
The NAL should be looking at $5-10M ballparks anyway. The problem is California and RDAs. Harder to get money passed there now then it was in the past.
Doesn't matter if they pay for themselves or not really...that was always the case no matter when they were built. Development around these things has also been slowed by the economy. These cities are trying to make these ballparks pay for themselves but they don't go the extra mile to push the development around them. One hand washes the other I believe is the saying I'm looking for.
Saint's funding fell through. A lot of money for sure-does that mean it doesn't count in the discussion?
Some of your examples of teams getting funding for parks are a bit old. Waldorf-2008, Grand Prairie-2008, Normal-2010.
In Ramapo, the referendum for the bond issue was defeated by and almost 2/1 ratio, but they went a head and did it anyway, against the wishes of the people who will be stuck paying for it. That these projects almost always lose money and fail to deliver on their promises of economic growth-that's years down the road and not their concern.
Just because some city officials "have talks" about stadiums means nothing. Lots of them would love to build stadiums or whatever and make themselves and their connections of lawyers, contractors and consultants lots of money. Doesn't mean it has any real chance of happening.
It looks like if your league has to expand to survive, and perhaps it does, Texas may be your best bet. It fits the bill in many ways. Whether it's a viable plan or not is another question, but it's probably the best option at this point.[/quote]
I could go into specifics but I won't. These are cities I have first hand experience with and I will leave it at that.
$50M for an indy ballpark is a lot to ask for. Even the AtL doesn't ask for $50M ballparks. Most people still think indy ball isn't as good as affiliated and all that so there is less of a chance of a $50M ballpark passing then a $20M ballpark.
2008 and 2010 are still under the same economic conditions the country has been in for years.
The NAL should be looking at $5-10M ballparks anyway. The problem is California and RDAs. Harder to get money passed there now then it was in the past.
Doesn't matter if they pay for themselves or not really...that was always the case no matter when they were built. Development around these things has also been slowed by the economy. These cities are trying to make these ballparks pay for themselves but they don't go the extra mile to push the development around them. One hand washes the other I believe is the saying I'm looking for.
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And in this corner... the American West Baseball League.
http://ballparkdigest.com/201205094846/ ... ndy-league
The Yuma Panthers and Orange County Flyers will be members of the AWBL, which has not actually announced a start date...
http://ballparkdigest.com/201205094846/ ... ndy-league
The Yuma Panthers and Orange County Flyers will be members of the AWBL, which has not actually announced a start date...