NK: That would be one option (and not a bad one) except for one little detail. Egos.
Living on Long Island and near Hofstra I can tell you that the Cosmos are going through the same life cycle as the Rough Riders. When the RRs started out they were playing in a 5000 seat stadium that was usually sold out. There was even talk about them moving to the early MLS (they did develop a few players who went on to good careers in MLS). After 4 or 5 years, attendance declined, interest (and press) was lost, and they kept moving down the ladder. Now they play at various high schools in the PDL, usually in front of friends, family and the curious.
I went to the first Cosmos game at Hofstra. It was great. Big stadium (11,000+), standing room only. Great press and local TV. By the end of the first year the novelty had worn off as well as the crowds. The last 2 years they would play in front of a few thousand and who knows how many of those were freebies or discounted. They get almost no press other than a game blurb in Newsday.
They tried to get a stadium built at Belmont Park but that really went nowhere and drained finances. Now they are going to (maybe) play at a baseball stadium in Brooklyn that is hard to drive to with terrible traffic if you are coming from their current area. So they are going to have to build a new fan base in NYC. Good luck with that.
Then you have the NASL stuff. Nobody is going to want to watch the Cosmos play in the third division. It is going to be as pathetic as the final year of the first go-round in the NASL when they played in front of 12,000 in a 70,000 seat stadium and tried to keep going as an indoor team.
Dave
NASL in trouble
-
suge night
- Site Admin
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:09 pm
- Location: USA
[quote=""nksports""]Please allow me to play the lord high god of association football in the US and Canada. [/quote]
No, no, no. American soccer has too many lord high gods and not enough real followers.
[quote=""nksports""]The solution long term is this the MLS needs to expand to between 36 and 40 teams, then split into MLS Premier and MLS Championship.[/quote]
MLS owners don't NEED to do much of anything. There's not going to be a national following for much of anything i.e. NFL. The math indicates it's going to be more like MLB... where individual markets probably drive local TV MORE than a national market drives national TV. Therefore, why threaten NY and LA and especially Chicago?
[quote=""nksports""]What's left of the NASL needs to come together with the USL (along with a handful of the better NPSL teams)... [/quote]
Yada. Yada. Yada. The American professional scene first has to establish two solid divisions of play before we can start talking about a 3rd, never mind a 5th. I don't simply mean that the PDL has to survive another 18 years, I mean that more than half the teams in it need to survive that long.
[quote=""nksports""]The first three divisions should be national, eliminating the divisions. Go to a true double round-robin home-and-home schedule.[/quote]
While I'm enjoying my cynicism too much, again, we've just witnessed a 2nd level league not be able to make it to season 6 without serious difficulties. If we somehow do get pro/rel, I guarantee you the third level will have to be regional, and it's quite possible that the 2nd will as well. I don't even see a 5th level happening, and we'll be lucky to see a 4th.
The real challenge for all this will be trying to even arrange pro/rel without the owners leaving and new owners not be able to budget for top foreign talent. But that's another 10 paragraphs and I only want to harsh your buzz a reasonable amount right now.
No, no, no. American soccer has too many lord high gods and not enough real followers.
[quote=""nksports""]The solution long term is this the MLS needs to expand to between 36 and 40 teams, then split into MLS Premier and MLS Championship.[/quote]
MLS owners don't NEED to do much of anything. There's not going to be a national following for much of anything i.e. NFL. The math indicates it's going to be more like MLB... where individual markets probably drive local TV MORE than a national market drives national TV. Therefore, why threaten NY and LA and especially Chicago?
[quote=""nksports""]What's left of the NASL needs to come together with the USL (along with a handful of the better NPSL teams)... [/quote]
Yada. Yada. Yada. The American professional scene first has to establish two solid divisions of play before we can start talking about a 3rd, never mind a 5th. I don't simply mean that the PDL has to survive another 18 years, I mean that more than half the teams in it need to survive that long.
[quote=""nksports""]The first three divisions should be national, eliminating the divisions. Go to a true double round-robin home-and-home schedule.[/quote]
While I'm enjoying my cynicism too much, again, we've just witnessed a 2nd level league not be able to make it to season 6 without serious difficulties. If we somehow do get pro/rel, I guarantee you the third level will have to be regional, and it's quite possible that the 2nd will as well. I don't even see a 5th level happening, and we'll be lucky to see a 4th.
The real challenge for all this will be trying to even arrange pro/rel without the owners leaving and new owners not be able to budget for top foreign talent. But that's another 10 paragraphs and I only want to harsh your buzz a reasonable amount right now.
Mean Spirited Blogger #107
-
nksports
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3669
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:53 am
- Location: Newton, KS (the land of Oz)
[quote=""Pounder""]No, no, no. American soccer has too many lord high gods and not enough real followers.[/quote]
The problem is the current lord high god (Sunil Gulati) needed to be sent out the door along with his deputy, Klinsmann, who should have never been both manager and technical director and proved to be out of his depths in both fields. (I like Bruce Arena in the short term. Wins and losses may not get too much better, but they won't get worse. Arena will win back the locker room quickly, which Klinsmann lost about two years ago). At the moment, the unfilled TD job is more important and that is the lord high god of player development, which is sorely lacking.
Had the Cosmos people been a little bit less arrogant and a little better capitalized, they might have been the second MLS team in the region, but they took a my way or the highway approach and the MLS took the Cartman approach ("Screw you guys, I'm going home!").
In the long term, the NASL is toast. I know egos are involved, but if they came to the table sooner rather than later, they could have saved some dignity (and maybe even the name NASL for the second division), but all the USL has to do is wait for the inevitable and pick off what's left of the carcass (which they've pretty much already done).
[quote=""Pounder""]MLS owners don't NEED to do much of anything. There's not going to be a national following for much of anything i.e. NFL. The math indicates it's going to be more like MLB... where individual markets probably drive local TV MORE than a national market drives national TV. Therefore, why threaten NY and LA and especially Chicago?[/quote]
The MLS is currently at 20 (with two for next year and two for 2018 ), so that's not a radical expansion. MLB is at 30 and the NFL at 32, and your current costs are lower than either of those two.
I don't think you'd be hurting NY or LA with additional expansion (I would keep both cities at two teams. They aren't quite at the level of a London or Rome in terms of number of fans. One team for Chicago is fine). Teams for places like St. Louis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis (slated for 2017) and Indianapolis would help Chicago.
You also can help things out by stopping the practice of giving DP slots to retirees. The MLS at this point no longer needs to be the AARP of the European Leagues. Let's thank Beckham and those that followed for their service to North American soccer and move on. The DP slots should go to up and comers in the 18- to 22-year-old range.
Liga MX teams have considerably lower payrolls than the MLS, but those teams kick the MLS's rear ends, so the MLS is not getting the best bang for its buck as it is.
[quote=""Pounder""]I don't even see a 5th level happening, and we'll be lucky to see a 4th.[/quote]
With the PDL and NPSL, we effectively have a fourth and fifth division. Some NPSL teams are effectively semi pro as it is. Some NPSL and all PDL teams operate with similar models as summer college baseball. I suppose the NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA are the defacto sixth, seventh and eighth levels of the pyramid.
[quote=""Pounder""]While I'm enjoying my cynicism too much...[/quote]
Don't worry, I enjoy and often employ snark myself.
And I'm not calling for change overnight. It took the NFL nearly 30 years to gain financial stability and wasn't a truly national sport until the start of the Super Bowl era.
The problem is the current lord high god (Sunil Gulati) needed to be sent out the door along with his deputy, Klinsmann, who should have never been both manager and technical director and proved to be out of his depths in both fields. (I like Bruce Arena in the short term. Wins and losses may not get too much better, but they won't get worse. Arena will win back the locker room quickly, which Klinsmann lost about two years ago). At the moment, the unfilled TD job is more important and that is the lord high god of player development, which is sorely lacking.
Had the Cosmos people been a little bit less arrogant and a little better capitalized, they might have been the second MLS team in the region, but they took a my way or the highway approach and the MLS took the Cartman approach ("Screw you guys, I'm going home!").
In the long term, the NASL is toast. I know egos are involved, but if they came to the table sooner rather than later, they could have saved some dignity (and maybe even the name NASL for the second division), but all the USL has to do is wait for the inevitable and pick off what's left of the carcass (which they've pretty much already done).
[quote=""Pounder""]MLS owners don't NEED to do much of anything. There's not going to be a national following for much of anything i.e. NFL. The math indicates it's going to be more like MLB... where individual markets probably drive local TV MORE than a national market drives national TV. Therefore, why threaten NY and LA and especially Chicago?[/quote]
The MLS is currently at 20 (with two for next year and two for 2018 ), so that's not a radical expansion. MLB is at 30 and the NFL at 32, and your current costs are lower than either of those two.
I don't think you'd be hurting NY or LA with additional expansion (I would keep both cities at two teams. They aren't quite at the level of a London or Rome in terms of number of fans. One team for Chicago is fine). Teams for places like St. Louis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis (slated for 2017) and Indianapolis would help Chicago.
You also can help things out by stopping the practice of giving DP slots to retirees. The MLS at this point no longer needs to be the AARP of the European Leagues. Let's thank Beckham and those that followed for their service to North American soccer and move on. The DP slots should go to up and comers in the 18- to 22-year-old range.
Liga MX teams have considerably lower payrolls than the MLS, but those teams kick the MLS's rear ends, so the MLS is not getting the best bang for its buck as it is.
[quote=""Pounder""]I don't even see a 5th level happening, and we'll be lucky to see a 4th.[/quote]
With the PDL and NPSL, we effectively have a fourth and fifth division. Some NPSL teams are effectively semi pro as it is. Some NPSL and all PDL teams operate with similar models as summer college baseball. I suppose the NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA are the defacto sixth, seventh and eighth levels of the pyramid.
[quote=""Pounder""]While I'm enjoying my cynicism too much...[/quote]
Don't worry, I enjoy and often employ snark myself.
And I'm not calling for change overnight. It took the NFL nearly 30 years to gain financial stability and wasn't a truly national sport until the start of the Super Bowl era.
Last edited by nksports on Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
[quote=""nksports""]
With the PDL and NPSL, we effectively have a fourth and fifth division.
[/quote]
No, we really don't.
Those are amateur teams in amateur leagues.
I know it helps some people visualize things, but they have virtually nothing in common with the three pro divisions, except they kick soccer balls.
Besides the fact that "semi-pro" is not a real thing (you're either professional - even at a low level - or you are amateur, and most NPSL clubs do not have the resources to even pay people anything or can't because they use NCAA players), I would like you to name for me the NPSL teams that are "effectively semi pro." After you've defined "semi pro."
And the NFL took that long to get stable because they started in 1920. You could be fly by night, everybody was. You can't do that anymore.
With the PDL and NPSL, we effectively have a fourth and fifth division.
[/quote]
No, we really don't.
Those are amateur teams in amateur leagues.
I know it helps some people visualize things, but they have virtually nothing in common with the three pro divisions, except they kick soccer balls.
Nonsense.Some NPSL teams are effectively semi pro as it is.
Besides the fact that "semi-pro" is not a real thing (you're either professional - even at a low level - or you are amateur, and most NPSL clubs do not have the resources to even pay people anything or can't because they use NCAA players), I would like you to name for me the NPSL teams that are "effectively semi pro." After you've defined "semi pro."
College soccer is a completely different animal, and de facto levels are not levels.Some NPSL and all PDL teams operate with similar models as summer college baseball. I suppose the NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA are the defacto sixth, seventh and eighth levels of the pyramid.
The Rams reached the coast in 1947. The 1958 NFL Championship Game was a watershed.It took the NFL nearly 30 years to gain financial stability and wasn't a truly national sport until the start of the Super Bowl era.
And the NFL took that long to get stable because they started in 1920. You could be fly by night, everybody was. You can't do that anymore.
Old enough to remember when bashing the ABA was fun.
In the meantime...
...Rayo OKC didn't even show up at the league meetings and are believed to be done.
There have been cross-rumors flying about Cosmos, but it's becoming more evident that they won't exist in NASL. Talk is that they'd still exist as the "Cosmos" did prior to joining the league.
There were rumors yesterday that the league was done, then the counter came as others talked about 4 organizations making presentations to join (supposedly). There are other rumors that four current NASL teams have approached the USL. Basically, even if the NASL plays next year, either dead league walking or it becomes the Peter Wilt show.
...Rayo OKC didn't even show up at the league meetings and are believed to be done.
There have been cross-rumors flying about Cosmos, but it's becoming more evident that they won't exist in NASL. Talk is that they'd still exist as the "Cosmos" did prior to joining the league.
There were rumors yesterday that the league was done, then the counter came as others talked about 4 organizations making presentations to join (supposedly). There are other rumors that four current NASL teams have approached the USL. Basically, even if the NASL plays next year, either dead league walking or it becomes the Peter Wilt show.
Mean Spirited Blogger #107
-
robster2001
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1046
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:02 pm
So the known NASL lineup is:
FC Edmonton
Fort Lauderdale Strikers (finances uncertain)
Indy Eleven
Jacksonville Armada FC
Miami FC
New York Cosmos (finances uncertain)
North Carolina FC (formerly Carolina Railhawks)
Puerto Rico FC
San Francisco Deltas (expansion)
I'll say it again - given their poor attendance numbers, how are they going to afford the travel needed to sustain a 30+ game schedule?
The USL is eager to move in the other direction - three or four regional conferences with limited or no interconference play. And that's the only way D2 and D3 soccer are going to work here -- there just isn't the fanbase or sponsorship money on those levels to sustain far-flung travel for very long.
FC Edmonton
Fort Lauderdale Strikers (finances uncertain)
Indy Eleven
Jacksonville Armada FC
Miami FC
New York Cosmos (finances uncertain)
North Carolina FC (formerly Carolina Railhawks)
Puerto Rico FC
San Francisco Deltas (expansion)
I'll say it again - given their poor attendance numbers, how are they going to afford the travel needed to sustain a 30+ game schedule?
The USL is eager to move in the other direction - three or four regional conferences with limited or no interconference play. And that's the only way D2 and D3 soccer are going to work here -- there just isn't the fanbase or sponsorship money on those levels to sustain far-flung travel for very long.
Edmonton- would probably prefer to be in the USL West if everything else is falling apart. Doesn't hurt to be within shouting distance of the Cascadia core of USL/MLS. Nothing else is leaning in their direction, especially geographically.
Fort Lauderdale- the only way they survive the Edwards lawsuit is if the Miami owner is REALLY in leave of his senses.
Indy Eleven- Peter Wilt's creation took a hit in the stands after Wilt left to work on Chicago, but not enough to not try to be the pillar on which to keep this alive (hence why Wilt's in Chicago).
Jacksonville- Having their own financial difficulties, one of the groups rumored to have approached USL.
Miami- People are anxiously awaiting the actual publishing of the report the MFC owner commissioned about pro/rel, if only to trash it to dust. Can't kill Beckham FC's momentum (frankly, MLS can't kill Beckham FC's momentum, which is inexorable, but damn slow), and they apparently are tied into this Fort Lauderdale mess as well. Also, they didn't like the FIU turf (or pretty much anything else). Owner is a man with a dream. Not much else. Doesn't know that he doesn't know.
New York Cosmos- Trying to scrap to live another day, probably praying that Brooklyn Cyclones give them free rent. Speaking of "don't know that they don't know"...
North Carolina FC- New owner could be eyeballing USL. Certainly has regional rivals there.
Puerto Rico- Along for the ride.
San Francisco- THEY apparently approached the USL, too. Not bad for not having played a game yet.
These guys were way too in bed with Traffic Sports and the ghosts of Cosmos past. The only hope is really what Peter Wilt can cobble together, though it seems his specific magic only works if he's running a team. There's no proof yet that running a league is within his skill set.
Fort Lauderdale- the only way they survive the Edwards lawsuit is if the Miami owner is REALLY in leave of his senses.
Indy Eleven- Peter Wilt's creation took a hit in the stands after Wilt left to work on Chicago, but not enough to not try to be the pillar on which to keep this alive (hence why Wilt's in Chicago).
Jacksonville- Having their own financial difficulties, one of the groups rumored to have approached USL.
Miami- People are anxiously awaiting the actual publishing of the report the MFC owner commissioned about pro/rel, if only to trash it to dust. Can't kill Beckham FC's momentum (frankly, MLS can't kill Beckham FC's momentum, which is inexorable, but damn slow), and they apparently are tied into this Fort Lauderdale mess as well. Also, they didn't like the FIU turf (or pretty much anything else). Owner is a man with a dream. Not much else. Doesn't know that he doesn't know.
New York Cosmos- Trying to scrap to live another day, probably praying that Brooklyn Cyclones give them free rent. Speaking of "don't know that they don't know"...
North Carolina FC- New owner could be eyeballing USL. Certainly has regional rivals there.
Puerto Rico- Along for the ride.
San Francisco- THEY apparently approached the USL, too. Not bad for not having played a game yet.
These guys were way too in bed with Traffic Sports and the ghosts of Cosmos past. The only hope is really what Peter Wilt can cobble together, though it seems his specific magic only works if he's running a team. There's no proof yet that running a league is within his skill set.
Mean Spirited Blogger #107
-
robster2001
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1046
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:02 pm
