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VinnyTheViper
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Post by VinnyTheViper » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:08 am

[quote=""jerry101jlh""]Sounds more like you even get a vote. All teams voting on every issue throughout a season not practical.[/quote]

Sorry, but they do not grant voting rights to season ticket holders. The only vote that I get is yes or no on the purchase of the tickets, and that is the way it should be. Just sit your butt down and enjoy the entertainment, but please make it minus replacement players, forfeited games, and teams folding in mid-season, and I will feel that I got my money's worth.

It is funny that you say that "all teams voting on every issue throughout the season is not practical", because that is the exact structure that has been in place for a collective 34 years between the AFL and the af2. 34 years is likely longer than all of the other ABC league's tenures combined. Each team in the league, plus the commissioner, get a vote on each issue that comes before the Board of Directors. If a league has done its homework, there should not be that many votes in a given year to deal with once the league is up and running, and with the web-meeting technology that exists today, it is pretty easy to hold a meeting without any travel expenses for the teams.
Last edited by VinnyTheViper on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BananaCat
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Post by BananaCat » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:16 am

[quote=""VinnyTheViper""]It is funny that you say that "all teams voting on every issue throughout the season is not practical", because that is the exact structure that has been in place for a collective 34 years between the AFL and the af2. 34 years is likely longer than all of the other ABC league's tenures combined.[/quote]
How many votes took place during the 2009 AFL season again? AF2?...what's that? Oh yeah, another defunct league. The ABC league's as you put it have a lot of issues, but the AFL's two incarnations and AF2 weren't/aren't perfect either.
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jerry101jlh
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Post by jerry101jlh » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:00 am

Sometimes I think points get missed simply because I don't explain myself well enough. In any well ran league the teams are going to get a vote, but there are day to day issues that constantly come up that don't require a vote. That is where the commissioner uses the powers given to him to make those decisions. In some cases, say like in the IFL, there are issues that are predetermined by the teams that go to the executive committee for a vote. In season especially it makes no sense to take each and every issue to the full membership.

VinnyTheViper
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Post by VinnyTheViper » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:42 pm

[quote=""BananaCat""]How many votes took place during the 2009 AFL season again? AF2?...what's that? Oh yeah, another defunct league. The ABC league's as you put it have a lot of issues, but the AFL's two incarnations and AF2 weren't/aren't perfect either.[/quote]

Nor did I say anywhere that the AFL and the af2 were perfect, every league has its problems, I was simply combating the charge that a "vote per team" philosophy would not work or that it was not practical, pointing out that there is a 34 year record out there that says that the philosophy is at least functional. I would suggest that this type of philosophy will produce far better results than allowing leagues to be run by dictators.

And to answer another post in this thread, no where did I say that every issue has to be decided by a league's Board of Directors, OBVIOUSLY there are issues that the commissioner is charged to deal with that never rise to the BOD voting level. But the issues that rise to the BOD level should be voted on by every team, if the league is run properly, there should not be that many times in a given season that would require votes, most of the votes would be likely cast in the off-season at the owner's or league meetings before the next season starts.

Finally, I consider the AFL and the af2 to also be ABC leagues, comprised of at least three letters or characters, notice, I said "other" ABC leagues, that implies that inclusion of the AFL and the af2 in the same mix as the IFL, SIFL, UIFL, and AIFA.
Last edited by VinnyTheViper on Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by IndoorExpert » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:11 pm

I read this strictly for entertainment purposes. I often have to agree with Dan on numerous issues that are being discussed. The exact same issues arise each year in indoor football. We beat these things into the ground when there is no change in sight. However, we have to face the reality of the situations at hand:

1. The same people continue to be involved in this business. We can all agree that this business has been run very poorly for a long time. If the same people continue to be involved, the same problems will continue to arise. I am not saying people cant change, but until their is some proof of change, I see no progress. It is time to cut ties with many of these individuals and begin with new faces.

2. As a person that enjoys spending discretionary income on enjoyable moments, I prefer a more proven product. Every year a new league arises. It is the same teams jumping from league to league sprinkled with a few new franchises. As a fan, I have no faith in a team that moves league to league every year for the exact same level of play. It is one thing to move from the IFL to the AFL, but to move between the other leagues shows a level of unprofessionalism. A team cant keep blaming the league for their continuous movements. Do your homework before you join a league. It doesnt make the team look viable in the end.

3. The simple fact of the matter is this. No matter which indoor football league you move to, it is not putting more butts in the seats or additional sponsors. Do we honestly believe that the LSFL or PIFL will provide new fans or sponsors? We all know that the answer is NO!!! Sure, there can be a few changes in day to day operations, but no additional income. These are businesses and really this should be a sport only offered to multi-millionares with deep pockets. The small pocket owners are killing the sport, no matter how passionate they are.

4. At this point we all know that this business makes no money. The best thing to do is to keep the leagues regional. At least there can be fun rivalries and more fan involvement. Give the teams a reason to stick around. Good business persons will only take losses for so long. Eliminating the amount of the losses will help keep franchises around.

5. Nobody in any of these leagues are going to do it better. The business model only allows for so many changes. Just pay all of your bills, players, and coaches and dont use replacement teams. Have decent turf fields and uniform equipment. The fans will at least have something to be proud of.

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Post by jerry101jlh » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:31 pm

[quote=""IndoorExpert""]I read this strictly for entertainment purposes. I often have to agree with Dan on numerous issues that are being discussed. The exact same issues arise each year in indoor football. We beat these things into the ground when there is no change in sight. However, we have to face the reality of the situations at hand:

1. The same people continue to be involved in this business. We can all agree that this business has been run very poorly for a long time. If the same people continue to be involved, the same problems will continue to arise. I am not saying people cant change, but until their is some proof of change, I see no progress. It is time to cut ties with many of these individuals and begin with new faces.

2. As a person that enjoys spending discretionary income on enjoyable moments, I prefer a more proven product. Every year a new league arises. It is the same teams jumping from league to league sprinkled with a few new franchises. As a fan, I have no faith in a team that moves league to league every year for the exact same level of play. It is one thing to move from the IFL to the AFL, but to move between the other leagues shows a level of unprofessionalism. A team cant keep blaming the league for their continuous movements. Do your homework before you join a league. It doesnt make the team look viable in the end.

3. The simple fact of the matter is this. No matter which indoor football league you move to, it is not putting more butts in the seats or additional sponsors. Do we honestly believe that the LSFL or PIFL will provide new fans or sponsors? We all know that the answer is NO!!! Sure, there can be a few changes in day to day operations, but no additional income. These are businesses and really this should be a sport only offered to multi-millionares with deep pockets. The small pocket owners are killing the sport, no matter how passionate they are.

4. At this point we all know that this business makes no money. The best thing to do is to keep the leagues regional. At least there can be fun rivalries and more fan involvement. Give the teams a reason to stick around. Good business persons will only take losses for so long. Eliminating the amount of the losses will help keep franchises around.

5. Nobody in any of these leagues are going to do it better. The business model only allows for so many changes. Just pay all of your bills, players, and coaches and dont use replacement teams. Have decent turf fields and uniform equipment. The fans will at least have something to be proud of.[/quote]

I can argue with anything you say or at least for the most part. I do think that the constant hashing of problems has brought some progress, although not as much as is needed. I tend to disagree that the average fan sees no difference or could care less about the league affiliation. I believe that may be true if teams stick with the same league and the on field competition doesn't change from year to year. Rivalries are made through facing those same teams each year and not new ones every season. I'm not sure that in the case of this new PIFL that sponsorship and attendance might not both increase. Maybe not in the first season, but in following ones if they do things right.

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Post by daytonadan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:55 pm

[quote=""jerry101jlh""]Sometimes I think points get missed simply because I don't explain myself well enough. [/quote]

Actually ... nah... too easy.

It comes down to this ... what vision do those involved in the sport have for the sport and what resources do they have to make the vision a reality?

Surely, we can reference the tenure of the greatest commissioner in the history, one Alvin Ray "Pete" Rozelle who made the National ...Football ... League (Cosell-like pauses) the great entity that it is by having the foresight to recognize the advantage of new media and created a business model that benefitted all teams.

The position of commissioner needs to be strong and with independence for overseeing day-to-day operation and long-term development. That's all I got right now. Lunch hour is over and gotta get back to real stuff that I'm not going to talk about because that's self-aggrandizing...

Thanx for the nod, indoor expert.
Last edited by daytonadan on Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jerry101jlh
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Post by jerry101jlh » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:09 pm

[quote=""daytonadan""]Actually ... nah... too easy.

It comes down to this ... what vision do those involved in the sport have for the sport and what resources do they have to make the vision a reality?

Surely, we can reference the tenure of the greatest commissioner in the history, one Alvin Ray "Pete" Rozelle who made the National ...Football ... League (Cosell-like pauses) the great entity that it is by having the foresight to recognize the advantage of new media and created a business model that benefitted all teams.

The position of commissioner needs to be strong and with independence for overseeing day-to-day operation and long-term development. That's all I got right now. Lunch hour is over and gotta get back to real stuff that I'm not going to talk about because that's self-aggrandizing...

Thanx for the nod, indoor expert.[/quote]

You are correct Dan. If you read the NFL bylaws you'll find the commissioner has very broad powers, more than any currently employed by indoor football. Unfortunately many at this level might abuse such power much like CS did in her day. But having such power in the right hands could make for a very strong league.

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Post by daytonadan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:12 pm

[quote=""jerry101jlh""]You are correct Dan. If you read the NFL bylaws you'll find the commissioner has very broad powers, more than any currently employed by indoor football. Unfortunately many at this level might abuse such power much like CS did in her day. But having such power in the right hands could make for a very strong league.[/quote]

You actually read the NFL bylaws? Impressive.
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jerry101jlh
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Post by jerry101jlh » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:31 pm

[quote=""daytonadan""]You actually read the NFL bylaws? Impressive.[/quote]

Only the commissioner powers etc. Was curious on what power the NFL gave its head guy. Real close to dictatorship, but effective in the right hands

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