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  #11   IP: 70.113.125.168
Old 07-09-2010, 02:29 PM
Caballo Diablo Caballo Diablo is offline
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First off, no need to be formal. You can call me just Diablo, Caballo, CD, Steve, or even uninformed if you wish but full name not required.

You inferred way too much that wasn't in my post and it wasn't personal as you seem to feel. I grew up about an hour from Buffalo and have no animosity towards the city, area, or you. I've reread my post and see no Buffalo bashing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo Super Fan View Post
Caballo Diablo you spin numbers any way you want and the bottom line is Buffalo had very bad teams with the Buffalo Destroyers with on the field product yet still never had a average under 7,000 for a year. How is some of your AFL markets doing 7,000 plus would look pretty good compared to some of the clubs presently in the AFL. As for the IFL if your saying the IFL shouldn't go to Buffalo wow you are very misinformed.
No spin posted, just factual numbers. Well as close as facts get with "Official" numbers. You brought up Buffalo and Columbus, I just commented. I compared the two because they were connected by the move and both in the SAME league.

You should have said, "how is some of THE current AFL teams doing," not "MY" AFL - lol

Now you are spinning/twisting numbers. Sure, the Current AFL would love to match the attendance numbers of the previous AFL. You are aware they are two different corporate entities with a totally different structure and pay scale aren't you. The only thing the same as far as business goes is the naming rights they paid over $6 mil for.

The current AFL at the moment only even has a couple of teams with the same owner as the previous one. Most were af2 teams and one came from the AIFA. The af2 didn't sit out a year like the AFL teams, the af2 is getting a better product while the AFL markets are getting a lesser one, even if it's only for now. (Please IndoorFan, let's not get side tracked on previous vs current and pretend either is being bashed in this post - lol)

Along with the economy and difference in the two AFL's you're not comparing apples to apples. It was much closer to reality to compare Buffalo to Columbus than Buffalo to a new lesser league.

As for the IFL, HUH? I didn't mention it or any other league, Those also are not comparable. I never said Buffalo shouldn't get an AFL2.0 team let alone one in another alphabet league. Is my "misinformed" comparable to your "lack of comprehension?" Not smacking here either, just an observation but I'll have to think about it before coming up with a definitive answer.


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Originally Posted by Buffalo Super Fan View Post
Caballo Diablo I never said Buffalo is a better football market then Columbus because it isn't we agree there. I am not a Buffalo homer and I can attmit that Buffalo didn't get the job done the first time. I can look at it objectively and say sorry but Buffalo in my opinion should get a second chance in one of these leagues. Even through Buffalo isn't a Columbus or a Dallas it still is a good football city. The Columbus market and the football market is stronger in the grass roots level on down and also the market finacially is doing better than my Buffalo. But you want to compare Buffalo against a good football city like Columbus instead of the ugly wart cities that are presently in the Arena Football League and all these leagues like the IFL, AIFA and CIFL.
Once again, the Buffalo and C-Bus teams were connected. Thus the comparrison. There are many cities/markets across 50 yard game much worse than Buffalo and there's really not enough space to list them all in one thread. They do have a word limit per post, I know because I've exceeded it many times - lol.

You may not be a homer, but you sure are defensive over stuff never stated or implied .


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Originally Posted by Buffalo Super Fan View Post
Let's make this clear you have some problem with Buffalo if you honestly think Buffalo doesn't belong in one of theses arena/indoor footbal leagues that is a joke after being without arena/indoor football for 8 plus years.
Let's make it clear, I never said or implied that. Don't feel like the lone stranger though, the Indiana Firebird fans feel your pain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo Super Fan View Post
You lose alot of creditability with me if you think some half baked city like Rio Grand Valley should get countless chances and your logic is well Buffalo didn't do as well as alot of major huge market cities. Look at the numbers the Buffalo Destroyers attendence matches up well for IFL at worse. Just sayin'. If your saying Buffalo shouldn't get another chance in one of these leagues all I can say is wow. We can agree to disagree. Let's Go Buffalo
First, I never realized I had cred with you in the first place so I can't feel bad for losing it.

Once again your spin has repeated itself so many times in your post that it's nearing borderline lies.

Once again you want to put in things not pertinent to my post. I NEVER said Buffalo doesn't deserve a team. So how can you even speculate on my logic? There wasn't any, just comparing the two connected teams and I never stuck up for C-Bus or slammed Buffalo.

You say Buffalo shouldn't have to compete with or be compared to larger market teams. Do you think Hildalgo and Buffalo are comparable markets? - lol

Now you want to compare Buffalo attendance with the IFL? That's funny. I live in the Austin area, we've had seven teams in various leagues go through our area. I admit my market is poor for the 50 yard sport, but comparing attendance in the differing leagues is silly. Different product and hugly different business plans and cost of doing business.

Austin had an AFL team for four years (04-07), the Wranglers. They averaged around 10k. In 08 they moved to the af2, still ArenaBall with the same rules, same market, yet in one off season the attendance dropped to 3,500. And you want to compare AFL attendance to the other alphabet leagues? Or Buffalo's in the AFL1.0 as a guarantee of a possible AFL2.0 figure.

If Buffalo gets an Indoor team I don't think they can draw a 7k attendance average. Even if they get an AFL2.0 team it's unlikely since they couldn't do it in the AFL1.0 in a better economy.

You've got to compare apples to apples and can't say it's a given that any team put in Buffalo today would compare to their previous attendance.

The truth is it's not as much about markets as it is ownership. It's not a business to make money but more a rich persons hobby. We fans talk about the owners losing money, but many owners look at it as spending on a hobby and getting a tax break to boot. This is a huge reason of the disparity from league to league and even from team to team in the same league. It all comes down to how much owners are willing to spend each year on their hobby.

WOW is right.
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  #12   IP: 74.77.132.201
Old 07-09-2010, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballo Diablo View Post
First off, no need to be formal. You can call me just Diablo, Caballo, CD, Steve, or even uninformed if you wish but full name not required.

You inferred way too much that wasn't in my post and it wasn't personal as you seem to feel. I grew up about an hour from Buffalo and have no animosity towards the city, area, or you. I've reread my post and see no Buffalo bashing.


No spin posted, just factual numbers. Well as close as facts get with "Official" numbers. You brought up Buffalo and Columbus, I just commented. I compared the two because they were connected by the move and both in the SAME league.

You should have said, "how is some of THE current AFL teams doing," not "MY" AFL - lol

Now you are spinning/twisting numbers. Sure, the Current AFL would love to match the attendance numbers of the previous AFL. You are aware they are two different corporate entities with a totally different structure and pay scale aren't you. The only thing the same as far as business goes is the naming rights they paid over $6 mil for.

The current AFL at the moment only even has a couple of teams with the same owner as the previous one. Most were af2 teams and one came from the AIFA. The af2 didn't sit out a year like the AFL teams, the af2 is getting a better product while the AFL markets are getting a lesser one, even if it's only for now. (Please IndoorFan, let's not get side tracked on previous vs current and pretend either is being bashed in this post - lol)

Along with the economy and difference in the two AFL's you're not comparing apples to apples. It was much closer to reality to compare Buffalo to Columbus than Buffalo to a new lesser league.

As for the IFL, HUH? I didn't mention it or any other league, Those also are not comparable. I never said Buffalo shouldn't get an AFL2.0 team let alone one in another alphabet league. Is my "misinformed" comparable to your "lack of comprehension?" Not smacking here either, just an observation but I'll have to think about it before coming up with a definitive answer.



Once again, the Buffalo and C-Bus teams were connected. Thus the comparrison. There are many cities/markets across 50 yard game much worse than Buffalo and there's really not enough space to list them all in one thread. They do have a word limit per post, I know because I've exceeded it many times - lol.

You may not be a homer, but you sure are defensive over stuff never stated or implied .



Let's make it clear, I never said or implied that. Don't feel like the lone stranger though, the Indiana Firebird fans feel your pain.



First, I never realized I had cred with you in the first place so I can't feel bad for losing it.

Once again your spin has repeated itself so many times in your post that it's nearing borderline lies.

Once again you want to put in things not pertinent to my post. I NEVER said Buffalo doesn't deserve a team. So how can you even speculate on my logic? There wasn't any, just comparing the two connected teams and I never stuck up for C-Bus or slammed Buffalo.

You say Buffalo shouldn't have to compete with or be compared to larger market teams. Do you think Hildalgo and Buffalo are comparable markets? - lol

Now you want to compare Buffalo attendance with the IFL? That's funny. I live in the Austin area, we've had seven teams in various leagues go through our area. I admit my market is poor for the 50 yard sport, but comparing attendance in the differing leagues is silly. Different product and hugly different business plans and cost of doing business.

Austin had an AFL team for four years (04-07), the Wranglers. They averaged around 10k. In 08 they moved to the af2, still ArenaBall with the same rules, same market, yet in one off season the attendance dropped to 3,500. And you want to compare AFL attendance to the other alphabet leagues? Or Buffalo's in the AFL1.0 as a guarantee of a possible AFL2.0 figure.

If Buffalo gets an Indoor team I don't think they can draw a 7k attendance average. Even if they get an AFL2.0 team it's unlikely since they couldn't do it in the AFL1.0 in a better economy.

You've got to compare apples to apples and can't say it's a given that any team put in Buffalo today would compare to their previous attendance.

The truth is it's not as much about markets as it is ownership. It's not a business to make money but more a rich persons hobby. We fans talk about the owners losing money, but many owners look at it as spending on a hobby and getting a tax break to boot. This is a huge reason of the disparity from league to league and even from team to team in the same league. It all comes down to how much owners are willing to spend each year on their hobby.

WOW is right.
The problem like the other poster posted Buffalo doesn't have a owner to come forward yet that sums it up nicely with Buffalo and arena/indoor football. I have nothing personal against you CD. My main point is Buffalo should be in either AFL, IFL or AIFA I took a defensive position because by you CD post that post you came acrossed as having a problem with Buffalo that is why the defensive position.

Buffalo is a major league market because it was once a bigger city in the 1950's and 1960's. But to compare Buffalo to a huge Ohio city that is doing well and growing today isn't fair in my opinion either we are more like a bigger Hildalgo, Texas from a finacial view point it is a better comparsion in my opinion and fair game in my opinion yes from a financial stand point city of Buffalo is hurting lack of jobs and high taxes in New York state and alot of poverty in the city itself.

Buffalo the median income for a household in the city is $24,536, and the median income for a family is $30,614. Males have a median income of $30,938 versus $23,982 for females.

Hildalgo the median income for a household in the city was $19,469, and the median income for a family was $20,357. Males had a median income of $16,238 versus $13,577 for females.

But Buffalo certainly has the large enough metro size to succeed in what I call second tier leagues AFL, UFL, D-League, AHL etc that is the truth. Our market size would make us a outstanding candiate for expansion franchises in theses leagues.

My point is Buffalo is at 50th as a tv market metro and 70th as a city population wise most of our population either left or are in the suburbs of Buffalo. Where a second tier city in my opinion with great fan interest and support. So as Buffalo is slipping major league wise no doubt.

But see sports fans don't think of Buffalo that way even because of the major league sports teams from our cities richer days without looking at the raw numbers. Buffalo's future in the next 10 to 15 years is in AFL, UFL, AHL, D-League if the said league exist in whatever form. Buffalo is being passed by with the NFL and to a lesser degree the NHL out growing Buffalo now the Buffalo Bills and Buffalo Sabres have a good size canadien season ticket bases that have the bigger money. But that does not mean Buffalo shouldn't be in the AFL or UFL etc. because in my opinion I think that is where my city is headed because of the continueing of decreasing population in the Buffalo area to the AFL and UFL etc. Hildalgo, Texas is a better comparsion than to growing Columbus, Ohio and coporate rich compared to Buffalo, Columbus. Columbus is richer then the city of Buffalo by alot. Look at the Fortune 500 companies in Columbus. Buffalo is the third poorest city in the US. See my point CD. I understand why you went with Columbus, Ohio now because they moved there sorry for that CD. Look at the scary Buffalo population numbers CD we have been losing population since the 1960's I think it is safe to assume the trend will continue for my city of Buffalo.

Historical populations
Census Pop. %±
1830 8,668 —
1840 18,213 110.1%
1850 42,261 132.0%
1860 81,129 92.0%
1870 117,714 45.1%
1880 155,134 31.8%
1890 255,664 64.8%
1900 352,387 37.8%
1910 423,715 20.2%
1920 506,775 19.6%
1930 573,076 13.1%
1940 575,901 0.5%
1950 580,132 0.7%
1960 532,759 −8.2%
1970 462,768 −13.1%
1980 357,870 −22.7%
1990 328,123 −8.3%
2000 292,648 −10.8%
Est. 2009 270,240 −7.7%
Historical Population Figures[42]

I say you CD are misinformed because understand you look at stats of the AFL Buffalo Destroyers days competing with the NFL Buffalo Bills which won't be the case in the next two to three years in my opinion again nothing personal CD. That is where I was coming from CD. CD the thing is there is no new stadium going up for the Buffalo Bills with a state of New York that is broke they aren't building a new stadium in Buffalo after building two stadiums in New York City for the Yankees and Mets plus a new arena for the Nets in Brooklyn in my opinion. Buffalo was lucky enough to get a very nice HSBC Arena before all our tax base shrunk even more in the last 15 years that is why AFL or IFL would be good for Buffalo in my opinion. If the Buffalo Bills left Ralph Wilson Stadium that is huge at 70,000 plus. I wonder if our Erie County can afford to keep that stadium open long term.

The Buffalo Bills NFL lease is up in two years with a 91 years old owner who has already said his estate is selling the team once he passes away. Again nothing personal CD but I recommend you also look at Buffalo more like Rochester, Toledo and Fort Wayne because that is a compariable size then comparing Buffalo to huge markets that are growing like Columbus etc. That is my point Buffalo shouldn't just be compared to it's major league past and be judged only. Nice posting with you CD. Let's Go Buffalo
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Last edited by Buffalo Super Fan; 07-10-2010 at 01:02 AM.
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  #13   IP: 70.113.125.168
Old 07-10-2010, 01:11 PM
Caballo Diablo Caballo Diablo is offline
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I agree with much of what you said. I remember going to (Coffee) Rich Stadium to watch the Bills. Buffalo has been sinking for years along with most of the rust belt. Where I grew up was a much smaller area and all factories, and that town dried up and blew away 30 years ago.

The Buffalo `Burbs were created on factories, Lackawanna, Cheektowaga, Tonawonda, etc. were major employment hubs for the Buffalo area. Orchard Park where the Bills play is further from Buffalo than these larger suburbs and is more comparable to Hamburg and East Aurora. The smaller burbs had more residential areas and were home to the former workers of the industrial jobs.

I'm not sure the population and incomes makes as much difference as you say. It's more of the steady shrinking of jobs and mental stress and wear on the area. This had been going on long before our current economy problems.

The Austin area has over a million people and still never supported the 50 yard game. This area while experiencing economic problems of it's own can not be compared to North and north East in terms of job loss. Austin shows tremendous support for the University of Texas football, but not their other sports. Columbus has Ohio State. For some reason the masses here just never cared about the 50 yard game and it can't be blamed on small market or the economy. Many smaller markets in worse shape support the game more than here.

The Bills weren't direct competition to the Destroyers as it's differing seasons, but the attitude of many NFL fans are a problem for the 50 yard game as they look down at it as the red headed inferior stepchild. If the previous AFL were around, I agree that Buffalo would have a difficult time keeping up with the pretense of the 5th major league. The new AFL is closer to the af2 as far as structure and cost of business. Yes it's still close to a million a year more than the af2 but probably in the ball park of 5 mil less than the previous AFL.

The size of the TV market doesn't matter, television isn't a factor. Yes, the real fans do enjoy their one game a week but the casual fans that make up the majority of butts in seats don't follow the league, and many not even their own team. If the populace still can afford a computer and internet access NiFty has you covered for the AFL and B2 for the IFL.

A second tier would be great for many markets. Several af2 markets still want to field a team, their population and incomes are much less than the "Major" AFL markets but did quite well in the less expensive league. Even the cost of doing business in the New AFL is too expensive for them.

It has nothing to do with a market deserving a team, as we've already agreed it has to do with a businessman with a passion for the sport and willing to spend some of his own money for the pleasure of owning a team. With the economical problems of the Buffalo area worse than average it compounds the difficulties. You need corporate sponsorships, while in other areas the corporate world has shrunk, in your area it has been disappearing. All areas have lost jobs, but your area has massive losses and the people can't buy groceries let alone season tickets.

A potential owner needs to look at what he's willing to lose/spend. The AIFA and CIFL are cheaper but both are a mere shell of what they used to be. The SIFL is cheap but not in your area. The IFL would be the next on the ladder of cost and are trying to expand like Americas waistline. We all know the AFL is the most expensive and aren't shy about long distance travel. In my opinion Buffalo can not support an AFL team, af2/2nd tier maybe. A sustained economical improvement in Buffalo is a lot further off than many other markets wanting a team.

It's not about "Buffalo", it's about the massive economical hardships the area has been incurring for the past 30 years. One of the reasons I moved away, it's difficult to stay when jobs are constantly on the decline.
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballo Diablo View Post
The Bills weren't direct competition to the Destroyers as it's differing seasons, but the attitude of many NFL fans are a problem for the 50 yard game as they look down at it as the red headed inferior stepchild. If the previous AFL were around, I agree that Buffalo would have a difficult time keeping up with the pretense of the 5th major league. The new AFL is closer to the af2 as far as structure and cost of business. Yes it's still close to a million a year more than the af2 but probably in the ball park of 5 mil less than the previous AFL.

The size of the TV market doesn't matter, television isn't a factor. Yes, the real fans do enjoy their one game a week but the casual fans that make up the majority of butts in seats don't follow the league, and many not even their own team. If the populace still can afford a computer and internet access NiFty has you covered for the AFL and B2 for the IFL.

A second tier would be great for many markets. Several af2 markets still want to field a team, their population and incomes are much less than the "Major" AFL markets but did quite well in the less expensive league. Even the cost of doing business in the New AFL is too expensive for them.

It has nothing to do with a market deserving a team, as we've already agreed it has to do with a businessman with a passion for the sport and willing to spend some of his own money for the pleasure of owning a team. With the economical problems of the Buffalo area worse than average it compounds the difficulties. You need corporate sponsorships, while in other areas the corporate world has shrunk, in your area it has been disappearing. All areas have lost jobs, but your area has massive losses and the people can't buy groceries let alone season tickets.

A potential owner needs to look at what he's willing to lose/spend. The AIFA and CIFL are cheaper but both are a mere shell of what they used to be. The SIFL is cheap but not in your area. The IFL would be the next on the ladder of cost and are trying to expand like Americas waistline. We all know the AFL is the most expensive and aren't shy about long distance travel. In my opinion Buffalo can not support an AFL team, af2/2nd tier maybe. A sustained economical improvement in Buffalo is a lot further off than many other markets wanting a team.

It's not about "Buffalo", it's about the massive economical hardships the area has been incurring for the past 30 years. One of the reasons I moved away, it's difficult to stay when jobs are constantly on the decline.
CD I agree with much of what you said except about Buffalo not being able to support a AFL team. Let me explain where I am coming from. In my opinion the Buffalo Bills can't be saved sadly. I am a huge Buffalo Bills fan but just looking at reality where the NFL is going in the next 10 years and where Buffalo is going in my opinion in the next 10 years.

In my opinion Buffalo is looking at the possiblity of a life as a professional football city with either the UFL, AFL or a outside possiblity of CFL because where a boarder city. Here is how I break it down let's say Buffalo Bills leave.

First UFL in Buffalo-The problem I see with the UFL is one there losing a ton of money plus there expansion franchises are expensive. The cheaper then the NFL but I just don't see the local Buffalo rich business person paying that kind of money on a iffy at best league. Plus your dealing with Ralph Wilson Stadium is simplely to big plus like I said before I not sure Erie County will be able to maintain that stadium long term. I could see Ralph Wilson Stadium land used for development because Orchard Park is a big suburb.

Second CFL in Buffalo-This would make sense for travel and cost because the cap for salaries is $4.2 million last I check canadien so it fits. Also if they use the huge Ralph Wilson Stadium down the road possible Buffalo could get a Grey Cup championship game a small version of the Super Bowl but a game like that in Buffalo with canadiens coming from all over canada to stay in Buffalo would have a nice economic benefit for a city like Buffalo. So in a perfect world for Buffalo the NFL would stay but if that is not possible the CFL isn't bad for Buffalo in my opinion. It also fits because the league is solid not iffy like the UFL in my opinion. Problems with CFL in Buffalo there are many. One again it requires a heavy ownership investment locally from some Buffalo rich business person who knows with that? Also the biggest problem is the stadium would require reventavations to Ralph Wilson Stadium to accommadate the 110 yard field that is cost with a broke New York State that is iffy at best. Plus who knows about the CFL feelings about adding a US city again after the failed CFL USA teams the first time excluding the successful Baltimore Stallions. Buffalo could follow the Baltimore Stallions model.

Third AFL in Buffalo-This in my opinion makes the most sense for Buffalo if the Buffalo Bills leave Buffalo. Because it requires no investment from New York State that is broke. No investment from the city of Buffalo and Erie County which as you know are also broke. In a perfect world the Buffalo Sabres would be the owners. The Buffalo Sabres have done a wonderful job with the Buffalo Bandits NLL that next year are celebrating the 20th season in Buffalo. Last year the Buffalo Bandits NLL averaged 16,000 plus in 2010 for the regular season. In 2009 the Buffalo Bandits averaged 17,000 plus for the regular season. For the Buffalo Sabres why do you do it well one programing for there HSBC Arena. Two they would then control the total Buffalo market for sports outside the Buffalo Bisons IL. The Buffalo Sabres NHL would control hockey, lacrosse and football professionally. The HSBC Arena is state of the art. Tom Golisano and the Buffalo Sabres have privately put money in the HSBC Arena to keep it state of the art. Three with the AFL it doesn't go against the NFL and college seasons which is a plus even with no Buffalo Bills the NFL still would be big in Buffalo in my opinion unlike the UFL and CFL that is during the NFL and college seasons. Also the cost isn't as big for a ownership like the Buffalo Sabres that could use all there Sabres/Bandits employees in there offseasons to sell tickets etc. Plus the Buffalo AFL team under the Buffalo Sabres have there season ticket list to market too. Plus the Buffalo Sabres tv games can market the AFL team like they do the NLL team in Buffalo. Also with rent the Buffalo Sabres are paying themselves that is why the Buffalo Bandits are still here. Because in down times for the Buffalo Bandits which they had all leagues and clubs in most cases have down times at the gate but they survived because there isn't a huge rent bill for HSBC Arena because they control the building.

Mark Hamister with the Buffalo Destroyers had the sponsorship that wasn't the problem. The problem was many things one you mentioned some NFL fans looking down on the Arena game. But also the season to some degree hurt when the AFL went to more of a February schedule for NBC TV. That hurt because then instead of going against the Buffalo Bisons. They were going against the Buffalo Sabres and Buffalo Bandits. The spring/summer like the AFL is now again favors Buffalo in my opinion because the Buffalo Sabres and Buffalo Bandits schedules are nearing the end of the season instead of being in the heart of the season. Also the team was built up as being one where going to win our unfair number of Arena Football Championships in Buffalo in AFL informercials by Dave Whinham for a year before the Buffalo Destroyers started in 1998. Then 1999 comes along and the team sucks. Not just sucks for year one but for five years. The hype hurt and in my opinion came back to bite the Buffalo Destroyers in Buffalo. Plus the last straw came when Mark Hamister 5 year lease was up and Mark Hamister didn't get the Buffalo Sabres ownership. Mark in my opinion was smart to get out when he did. Why? Because the cost were going out of control for a second tier sport one. Two the rent was very high at HSBC Arena. Three Mark Hamister got back some of his loses by selling at a high point for the AFL with all the NBC TV hype that was fantasyland 5th sport etc. The AFL today if the Buffalo Bills leave would do well in Buffalo sponsorship wouldn't be a problem with no Buffalo Bills the new team would have to go after some of that money that is there. As long as the cost are like they are now the AFL in Buffalo with no Buffalo Bills NFL would be a model franchise for the AFL like a San Jose Sabercats as a example.

But CD the bottom line is I question if AFL potential owners think that deeply into there business purchases for a city. By the looks of so many teams going under or moving. Buffalo I think will be in the Arena Football League1 as soon as the Buffalo Bills NFL move. Because remember CD that is why Buffalo got the Buffalo Destroyers AFL in the first place because Mark Hamister thought the Buffalo Bills NFL were moving after there lease was up in 1998 when Buffalo had to sell all the boxes and club suites.

This time though inless there is a miracle I don't see the Buffalo Bills staying in Buffalo. I hope I am wrong as a Buffalo Bills fan but again the business side of me says no chance after Ralph Wilson. That is where the AFL in Buffalo comes in. If Kutz is a strong AFL commissioner he should sell the AFL expansion franchise pitch to the Buffalo Sabres NHL ownership in my opinion when the time is right so the AFL gets into a possible stable market with stable ownership. Not fly by night and half baked owners and cities which the AFL continues to see still even with the lower cost in my opinion. CD I shrunk some of your post so it fits in the number of words for my post. But I agree with most of what you said. Let's Go Buffalo
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Last edited by Buffalo Super Fan; 07-11-2010 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 07-11-2010, 11:42 AM
Caballo Diablo Caballo Diablo is offline
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WOW, I wasn't aware losing the Bills was iminent. It's been hashed over for years and when the Toronto idea was fought over I thought it was decided staying in Buffalo was best. If the Bills do leave it definitely changes the market oportunities.

Some other 50 yard owners have mingled their staff and advertising/promotions across a couple of sports teams and it does come with some year round benefits.

It keeps coming back to the same problem, finding an owner and group of investors willing to spend (lose) money on a hobby in a down economic climate. If they're willing to lose/spend millions than the AFL's the way to go, but if they are only willing to lose/spend hundreds of thousands the IFL's the way to go. The CIFL and AIFA are far too risky to throw money at.

If owners are surprised to lose money in the 50 yard game they didn't do their homework. You need people aware they'll be just spending money on their hobby or for the priviledge of saying they own a professional football team. How much money depends on the market and how they run the franchise.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:01 AM
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Well gee, Buffalo Super Fan, when you're on the UFL board you seem pretty optimistic about the UFL. Given the time scale of the Bills moving, a lot can happen to the leagues you're discussing. Maybe 2014? By then the UFL will be deep into mid-sized markets like Norfolk, so Buffalo should look great. The AFL's scale of operations should also be better known.

But it might be possible for a sufficiently credible group to get an IFL franchise for Buffalo in 2011 or 2012, exploiting rivalries with Rochester and Lehigh Valley and maybe additional Pennsylvania teams. Then if it looks like the Bills are gone and the UFL isn't coming in 2014, jump the team to the AFL. That's why it needs to be a sufficiently credible group - the IFL doesn't require credibility.

It sounds like a cheap way to learn the ropes.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by super390 View Post
Well gee, Buffalo Super Fan, when you're on the UFL board you seem pretty optimistic about the UFL. Given the time scale of the Bills moving, a lot can happen to the leagues you're discussing. Maybe 2014? By then the UFL will be deep into mid-sized markets like Norfolk, so Buffalo should look great. The AFL's scale of operations should also be better known.

But it might be possible for a sufficiently credible group to get an IFL franchise for Buffalo in 2011 or 2012, exploiting rivalries with Rochester and Lehigh Valley and maybe additional Pennsylvania teams. Then if it looks like the Bills are gone and the UFL isn't coming in 2014, jump the team to the AFL. That's why it needs to be a sufficiently credible group - the IFL doesn't require credibility.

It sounds like a cheap way to learn the ropes.
It has nothing to do with the UFL. My feelings are even if the UFL is a success there won't be anyone locally in Buffalo willing to pay $30 or $40 million dollars for a expansion UFL franchise. Why do you BSF come to that logic?

Well let's take a closer look at some of Buffalo sports ownership history.

1. Buffalo Bisons American Association at the time going for new NL expansion franchise for Buffalo that end up in Denver and Miami in 1993. Go back to MLB winter meetings in Cleveland forgot the year early 1990's. Bob Rich Buffalo Bisons owner waves a blank check at the MLB winter meetings in Cleveland. A year later the price is set at $95 million dollars for NL franchise. Bob Rich talks about to the Buffalo News having doubts about the Buffalo bid. Does this have anything to do with us getting a NL franchise in my opinion no. But the point $95 million made Bob Rich blink. Remember when triple-a returned to Buffalo in 1985 Bob Rich bought the Wichita Aeros for $1 million dollars. Why this long point about a baseball owner. Because Bob Rich is a billionaire and is local Buffalo owner if he blinked at $95 for MLB no way as much as I am appreciative of everything Bob Rich has done and the Rich family for my Buffalo Bisons IL baseball no way I see him putting down $30 or $40 million on a UFL expansion team for Buffalo.

2. Buffalo Sabres NHL when they were in bankruptcy two people were interest that was all locally. One local Buffalo businessman Mark Hamister, the problem with his bid was he wanted taxpayers money for help no way that is going to fly so his bid was done. The second bidder was Tom Golisano who got the NHL team but at less then what local Buffalo businessman Mark Hamister original offered but was rejected. Anyway Rochester businessman Tom Golisano wins the bid by assuming the Buffalo Sabres creditors and dept. For anywhere between $60 and $90 million dollars were the reports. So again ask yourself if many business people in Buffalo coughed at the Buffalo Sabres NHL what makes anyone think someone locally is going to pay $30 to $40 million dollars for a UFL expansion team for Buffalo.

This is was the logic for my post it has nothing to do with the UFL and everything to do with I know the Buffalo area pretty good living here for 42 years. Putting two and two together after thinking about it if Buffalo losses the Buffalo Bills NFL in my opinion the Arena Football League makes the most sense because a expansion franchise for Buffalo won't cost nearly that much one as the UFL. Also player payroll is much cheaper in the AFL. I hope this clears up my post. I wish the UFL well because I like alternate leagues. I just don't see that league here in Buffalo with the cost structure for a potential Buffalo owner. I am only going by the business people in the Buffalo area and there past history. It is the reason I have little faith in someone locally steping up to buy the Buffalo Bills to keep them in Buffalo. I hope I am wrong about the Buffalo Bills leaving but $800 million plus and the Buffalo business persons history I just talked about put two and two together. Let's Go Buffalo
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballo Diablo View Post
WOW, I wasn't aware losing the Bills was iminent. It's been hashed over for years and when the Toronto idea was fought over I thought it was decided staying in Buffalo was best. If the Bills do leave it definitely changes the market oportunities.

Some other 50 yard owners have mingled their staff and advertising/promotions across a couple of sports teams and it does come with some year round benefits.

It keeps coming back to the same problem, finding an owner and group of investors willing to spend (lose) money on a hobby in a down economic climate. If they're willing to lose/spend millions than the AFL's the way to go, but if they are only willing to lose/spend hundreds of thousands the IFL's the way to go. The CIFL and AIFA are far too risky to throw money at.

If owners are surprised to lose money in the 50 yard game they didn't do their homework. You need people aware they'll be just spending money on their hobby or for the priviledge of saying they own a professional football team. How much money depends on the market and how they run the franchise.
CD as a Buffalonian I want to make one thing clear I want the Buffalo Bills NFL to stay. I grew up with this team followed them since I was 7 years old for over 35 years and counting. But I am also looking at reality from the business side of the NFL today. Ralph Wilson the Buffalo Bills owner is 91 years old. The Buffalo Bills work for him right now because he started them in 1960 and the team has zero dept. He spends cash to cap and with the tv money it works. But when Ralph Wilson passes the team goes up for sale because there is no one in his family that wants the team he has already said this.

Anyway CD something to watch for is this from my understand from Buffalo Bills message board talk which this is a hot topic for years. Once Ralph Wilson passes legal Buffalo Bills fan yes we have some fans that are lawyers figure we have two years while the team is in probate. So basically the Buffalo Bills would be in a holding pattern in Buffalo till everything is figure out who gets the Buffalo Bills.

My concern and many Buffalo Bills fans concern is who is coming up with $800 plus million dollars in Buffalo for the Buffalo Bills. Also if Buffalo we are lucky that someone steps up and wants to keep the team in Buffalo. Where are we getting another $600 to $800 million for a new football stadium which is needed for the long term future of the Buffalo Bills. Like I said the state is broke, the county is broke and the lastly the city is broke. To do a private stadium and buy the team to keep in Buffalo that is $1.4 to $1.6 billion for a NFL team in Buffalo. No business person is doing that in a limited corporate Buffalo market even with a few games in Toronto that can't work in my opinion. You can't get a good return on your investment with a $1.4 billion dollar investment for the Buffalo Bills plus build a new football stadium I don't see it in Buffalo. If the state of New York steps up and the Buffalo community is willing to pay for PSL's maybe they stay but it is at best 50/50. But other than that I don't see any other way.

When I say limited corporate market CD remember I am talking about NFL not second tier minor pro sports. The corporate money is there for things like the Buffalo Bisons IL, Buffalo Bandits NLL or new Buffalo AFL or IFL team things like that wouldn't be a problem for Buffalo it never has been. The Buffalo corporate problem is for major league sports like NFL, NHL, NBA and MLB is another story. Buffalo in my opinion is a minor league or minor pro league town now. Second tier pro sports leagues should do well in Buffalo as long as the potential owner isn't a idiot with no money.

Now Toronto that is the popular thought around the NFL among NFL fans. There are problems with Toronto. One the stadium isn't NFL capable for long term success for the NFL no way the NFL approves the Rogers Centre for the Buffalo Bills every game so your looking at the same type of cost as Buffalo maybe more because building in Toronto will cost more for a new football stadium because of the cost of land and construction workers is more in Toronto than Buffalo. Two the Toronto fans response has been luke warm at best to put it nicely. Toronto has enough problems with Toronto Blue Jays low attendance to worry about adding NFL to Toronto.

If I was going to guess where the Buffalo Bills end up I believe it will be in Los Angeles some how. Don't ask me how CD just a gut feeling there join my former Buffalo Braves NBA left when I was 10 years old for San Diego and now there the Los Angeles Clippers. I was in the Buffalo Braves NBA Junior Braves Club as a kid and everything. So I am use to it but it will hurt when the Buffalo Bills do leave but what can you do.

The NFL wants Los Angeles and they need two NFL teams to make a new stadium work there for the cost that it will cost private investors in Los Angeles. In my opinion one of those teams will be the Jacksonville Jaguars just look at them a embarrassment to the NFL with that attendance last year in a half empty stadium. And don't tell me the Florida economy I hear that all the time from Jaguars fans I understand. But Buffalo fills there stadium weekly and our economy has been bad for 40 years and counting. Plus the NFL doesn't want to hear excuses it is a business.

The Buffalo Bills fill there stadium with fans that isn't the problem even through ticket cost is too low. It is the ownership cost one to buy the Buffalo Bills and keep them in Buffalo. And also the limited corporate revenue said new potential Buffalo Bills owner can get out of Buffalo for the future to recover there investment of $800 million dollars plus.

That is why I say Buffalo will get AFL or IFL take your pick because someone locally will take that chance on a empty Buffalo football market. CD you mentioned it not working in Austin a growing area compared to Buffalo. The reason why AFL or IFL will work in Buffalo second time around and is a better choice then Austin in my opinion is simple. Austin where you are is a college town Texas Longhorns. In Buffalo we are a pro town. When the Buffalo Bills NFL leave that is our Texas Longhorns. The Buffalo football market is wide open. Someone will take the chance and succeed this time in my opinion. The cost for the AFL is along the line of the Buffalo Bandits NLL and they draw 16,000 consistantly so the money is there in Buffalo you just have to go out and get it. Just on Jim Kelly night, Thurman Thomas night in Buffalo you will draw in the beginning but you need a strong competitive team for Buffalo.

The main thing is the team can't suck out of the gate like the Buffalo Destroyers AFL. Buffalo is a first impression town. Who ever comes needs to be creditable and have good football people in charge. Mark Hamister was creditable the problem was his football people he hire left alot to be desired. Corporate support for the AFL was always there the problem was the town turned there back after the horrible first couple of years.

We lost alot of games. I never gave up and was a season ticket holder all five years they were here but that is BSF. Also remember the new AFL or IFL team will be the only pro football team in town that will make a big difference this time around in my opinion. Let's Go Buffalo
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Last edited by Buffalo Super Fan; 07-12-2010 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:06 PM
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Being worried about the Bills moving to L.A. after the owner passes is a valid one. The NFL desperately wants a piece of that television market, but the fans have been fickle.

The "Thurmanator" would be a good choice in Buffalo where he's still loved and has name recognition. Thomas moved back to Buffalo in 2007 with his wife, Patti and three daughters, Olivia, Angel, and Annika, and one son, Thurman III. He is the President and CEO of Thurman Thomas Sports Training in Elma, New York.

In 2008, Thomas acquired a share of the Rochester Raiders indoor football team, and was also be collaborating with the other Raiders owners to bring an af2 team to Buffalo in 2009. The ownership group is also said to be recruiting Jim Kelly as a part-owner of the Buffalo franchise.

This could be just what Buffalo fans need.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:49 PM
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CD I hope the Buffalo Bills remain in Buffalo like I said. But yes the reality is Los Angeles is getting atleast one maybe two team NFL teams in my opinion as a NFL fan. The LA market is too big and too much money can be made on LA for that market to remain without NFL in my opinion.

Even with the fickle LA fan LA corporate support will be fine for the NFL to do well. The problem with LA was the stadium situation why the NFL left in the first place. There are people in Los Angeles working on that. When not if the Los Angeles stadium situation is solved in my opinion Los Angeles get two teams one for the NFC and one for the AFC.

Jacksonville is moving in my opinion for sure 40,000 plus in a NFL stadium the 1980's are over of course no one told the city of Jacksonville that. I saw a Buffalo Bills game on tv at Jacksonville Jaguars last year and called my brother inlaw at halftime just to make sure I wasn't seeing things with a half empty stadium for NFL football in Jacksonville.

The Buffalo Bills might move in the future after Ralph Wilson estate sells but atleast it will be for corporate support reason for the Buffalo Bills leaving not embarrassing ourselves at the gate. I love Buffalo but I would never want to see Buffalo embarrass ourselves like Jacksonville did last year. Atleast Buffalo can go out if that is ment to be with our heads held high that we sold out all our games and was in the top third in NFL attendance the last three years straight. It still would suck to lose our team but atleast as a Buffalonian I can hang on to that. Buffalo never embarrass the NFL like a Jacksonville or a Toronto with having trouble selling regular season tickets (Toronto). Let's Go Buffalo
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