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  #41   IP: 173.29.192.240
Old 06-18-2009, 02:39 PM
minorleagfan09 minorleagfan09 is offline
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Originally Posted by DazedAndAmused View Post
Unfortunately, I don't know of any example that can support that at this point. (I wish it weren't the case.)

The basic math that you're up against (particularly in this economy) is that you have to spend a dollar to make fifty cents. So, you might spend 20 grand in the EBA in operations but make only 10 grand. You spend $1M in the Dleague in operations to make $500k. The math holds up with most budgets. Some can do a little better. Some do worse.

If "making it work" means losing less, then yes I agree.
For the most part I agree but in rare cases like say the WCBL, maybe the UBL, and EBA I disagree.

Depending on the gym you can rent a high school or small college gym out for as low as 50 bucks an hour and likely cap it at $250 a game at most. If you are smart you give the school a cut of concessions and they run that. If you hook the school up on the concessions they are usually more than happy to provide the 3 game day staff you need for some free tickets to their families and 25 to 50 bucks per person per game. Add 3 refs at $50 bucks a game. Add players (the best maybe 100 bucks and the bench warmers 50 or 25 bucks) per game. Other than that you have to add gym insurance and non contact sport workers comp, plus you work with a rental company to get vans for road games. Generally you can always find a company that will give you a discount with jerseys.

There are examples in leagues like the EBA and WCBL that have been around for awhile. By no means am I saying they are raking in cash. But between sponsorship sales, ticket sales, and concessions sales they are sustainable (meaning they at least break even).

I personally would hate to discourage someone against following their dream of pro ownership. I would however direct them to a regional league and tell them to keep their first year budget as low as possible. Then if you have success on the revenue side you grow your budget a little.

Last edited by minorleagfan09; 06-18-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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  #42   IP: 173.29.192.240
Old 06-18-2009, 02:54 PM
minorleagfan09 minorleagfan09 is offline
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Originally Posted by zeke41 View Post
From what I've seen, I think most owners who get in this business have their priorities mixed up, and/or don't understand what they need and confuse that list with what looks good.
No question about it. If you don't have a company sponsoring your cheer leaders you better only be paying them $25 bucks each a game (if you want them). If you are in an exposure league you can generally operate on budgets that run less than 20k. That is exactly what a message board like this should be conveying to people interested in ownership.

Find yourself a regional league... make sure you are working with a low budget and understand what it really costs to run a team $12k to $20k.

If you have 6 home games and sell tickets for $7 you'll only make 4200 if 100 fans show up per game. You have to worst case scenario it out. Let's say you only sell 250 bucks a game in concessions. That's $1500 for the year. To meet a 15000 budget you'd need 9300 in sponsorship sales. If you only get 4000 in sponsorship sales you'd lose $5300 a year. Now that is really the ultimate worst case scenario I see as a business owner. But compared to the lesson you could get with the ABA, IBL, and PBL the regional exposure leagues make a lot of sense.

And more than likely you can at least average 150 to 300 fans a game, sell some concessions, and sell some sponsorships and breakeven or make a few bucks.
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  #43   IP: 71.15.24.32
Old 06-18-2009, 06:31 PM
DazedAndAmused DazedAndAmused is offline
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Originally Posted by minorleagfan09 View Post
For the most part I agree but in rare cases like say the WCBL, maybe the UBL, and EBA I disagree.

Depending on the gym you can rent a high school or small college gym out for as low as 50 bucks an hour and likely cap it at $250 a game at most. If you are smart you give the school a cut of concessions and they run that. If you hook the school up on the concessions they are usually more than happy to provide the 3 game day staff you need for some free tickets to their families and 25 to 50 bucks per person per game. Add 3 refs at $50 bucks a game. Add players (the best maybe 100 bucks and the bench warmers 50 or 25 bucks) per game. Other than that you have to add gym insurance and non contact sport workers comp, plus you work with a rental company to get vans for road games. Generally you can always find a company that will give you a discount with jerseys.

There are examples in leagues like the EBA and WCBL that have been around for awhile. By no means am I saying they are raking in cash. But between sponsorship sales, ticket sales, and concessions sales they are sustainable (meaning they at least break even).

I personally would hate to discourage someone against following their dream of pro ownership. I would however direct them to a regional league and tell them to keep their first year budget as low as possible. Then if you have success on the revenue side you grow your budget a little.
I agree with the theory of what you are saying with the budget leagues, but I still haven't found a solid example of teams that are even breaking even that are playing in legit leagues. Of course, I haven't talked with every team out there, but I have talked with a lot. The quality perception of some of these leagues, even from the novice fans, holds them back I believe. I'm not saying they're wrong for playing in high schools or using players or coaches that aren't paid or are paid little. I'm just saying they have different barriers to deal with that make the math I suggest valid for them too. I'm sure there may be rare examples as you say. I just haven't found them.
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  #44   IP: 173.29.192.240
Old 06-18-2009, 07:07 PM
minorleagfan09 minorleagfan09 is offline
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Originally Posted by DazedAndAmused View Post
The quality perception of some of these leagues, even from the novice fans, holds them back I believe. I'm not saying they're wrong for playing in high schools or using players or coaches that aren't paid or are paid little. I'm just saying they have different barriers to deal with that make the math I suggest valid for them too. .
If you don't consider any of the regional leagues I mentioned as legit, then this conversation is a mute point. Especially on the west coast there is talent (d-league guys.. even guys who have been in the NBA)... but minor league basketball is a mess now and it is going to take awhile before we see USBL like talent on these teams.

With high school gyms you have both the shot clock issue and the small court issue. In a small college gym neither of those issues exist and it is still cheap. Those types of gyms that seat 2500 people do not hold ANY league back. In fact damn never every D-League team could play in a gym like that.

As for coaching, from the business side of basketball I don't like the idea of hiring a big name coach even if he or she comes cheap. You have as a new business owner one disagreement with the coach... then that coach bad mouthes your organization to the media... and you are screwed before you even get off the ground.

Last edited by minorleagfan09; 06-18-2009 at 07:11 PM.
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  #45   IP: 71.15.24.32
Old 06-18-2009, 07:15 PM
DazedAndAmused DazedAndAmused is offline
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Originally Posted by minorleagfan09 View Post
If you don't consider any of the regional leagues I mentioned as legit, then this conversation is a mute point. Especially on the west coast there is talent (d-league guys.. even guys who have been in the NBA)... but minor league basketball is a mess now and it is going to take awhile before we see USBL like talent on these teams.

With high school gyms you have both the shot clock issue and the small court issue. In a small college gym neither of those issues exist and it is still cheap. Those types of gyms that seat 2500 people do not hold ANY league back. In fact damn never every D-League team could play in a gym like that.

As for coaching, from the business side of basketball I don't like the idea of hiring a big name coach even if he or she comes cheap. You have as a new business owner one disagreement with the coach... then that coach bad mouthes your organization to the media... and you are screwed before you even get off the ground.
Nope, not calling out any particular leagues as not legit. Sorry if it seemed that way. You and I both know some are ill organized, have no funding, and are scams, and others have good intentions, funding, and try to do things right. That's actually the problem these days. The average fan can't always tell the difference and the former burn it for all. This confusion and "dilution" in the business are at the core of the issue we have today.

Last edited by DazedAndAmused; 06-18-2009 at 07:18 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #46   IP: 71.15.24.32
Old 06-18-2009, 07:16 PM
DazedAndAmused DazedAndAmused is offline
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In fact damn never every D-League team could play in a gym like that.

I 100% agree with this. Dude, you're speaking my language!
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  #47   IP: 173.29.192.240
Old 06-18-2009, 07:49 PM
minorleagfan09 minorleagfan09 is offline
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Originally Posted by DazedAndAmused View Post
The average fan can't always tell the difference and the former burn it for all. This confusion and "dilution" in the business are at the core of the issue we have today.
No question about it. I really don't see us disagreeing. I just noticed you took the finite position that the "average joe" couldn't be successful owning a pro basketball team. I just wanted to point out that if the "average joe" gets a minor league basketball is a mess 101 education and gets in a low budget regional league that's probably an ok thing to do. The risk in something like that is low. You wont lose you shirt like you will in say the ABA, PBL, IBL etc.

The whole point of my first post was to suggest some owners get together for a regional league (even the CBA could do it) and replace the USBL (and IBL in the midwest) with a low budget exposure league.
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