CFL's Expansion

[Shootmaster_44]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

What?

NFL teams are profitable before they sell ticket one.

An NFL team in Toronto that was getting a cut of the NFL's $4B+ annual national television revenue would not have to build an 80,000 seat downtown stadium, much less fill it.

Actually, I had read somewhere once that at least 15 teams are losing money in the NFL.

However, there won't be a team in Toronto without a new stadium, the NFL has already stated that. Rogers Centre is not suitable for a permanent NFL team, league bylaws state you need minimum 75,000 for any stadium now. Anything currently in the league under that capacity is grandfathered in.

Quite honestly, I don't see the NFL working in Toronto. It might be big for the first couple years, but unless they are a winning product, the novelty will wear off. The Blue Jays, Raptors and especially Toronto FC have discovered this. What do those teams have in common? Rogers Communications owns at least a piece of them.

The Leafs are the only team that can lose and still sellout games. However, this has nothing to do with an indication of how a losing NFL team would work. The Leafs are important to sports fans in Toronto, hockey is not as the Marlies and the various OHL teams have proven.

I don't see the CFL being afraid anymore. Quite honestly, I am shocked that Rogers even bothered renewing the Bills in Toronto Series. With the bath Rogers is taking on the games (I had heard for the last one, they were literally handing out tickets at Yonge/Dundas Square in the days leading up to the game), I don't see the financial sense in doing this.

I am also unsure of why NFL fans think that a CFL without Toronto will kill the league? That isn't even close to the truth, if the Argos ceased to exist, they would simply be replaced by a team in Quebec City or some other locale in the East. Heck, the team might simply be moved to London and TD Stadium renovated. The CFL would die if the Stamps, Bombers, Esks or Riders ceased to exist. It is those 4 teams that allow the league to command the TV rights money that TSN is shelling out. This is like saying the NFL would die without the Jacksonville Jaguars, that is what the Argos mean to the CFL's bottom line currently. Yes, the Argos have immense history and are responsible for the Rogers Centre even being built, but they aren't the revenue generators of the league.

As for CFL expansion, here is the simple reality for anyone south of the 49th Parallel hoping for an expansion team, it will not happen. Commissioner Cohon has repeatedly said that the US is not even a consideration at this point. You will see Ottawa in 2014, and Quebec City and the Maritimes at some point. It is possible that another team in the West will exist at some point. However, the US will not be considered and in fact was only considered because in the early 90s, the CFL was on the verge of collapse. The expansion fees were collected to keep the league afloat. For a time, it was really like the ABA is today, if you had the money, you too could own a CFL team. This is why there was a press conference held in Miami to announce a Miami expansion team that literally was cancelled backstage when the ownership said we don't have the cash.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44

Actually, I had read somewhere once that at least 15 teams are losing money in the NFL.

Very difficult. I find it hard to believe half the teams in the league would actually lose money. Showing a loss, I could maybe buy that.

Did you see the Panthers' financials? The Panthers.

Did you see the LA Times documents several years ago that were evidence in the lawsuit?

However, there won't be a team in Toronto without a new stadium, the NFL has already stated that. Rogers Centre is not suitable for a permanent NFL team, league bylaws state you need minimum 75,000 for any stadium now. Anything currently in the league under that capacity is grandfathered in.

Then you should explain the new one they build in Indianapolis that seats 62,421. Or did they change it since, you know, 2008? Also, link, please?

I am also unsure of why NFL fans think that a CFL without Toronto will kill the league? That isn't even close to the truth, if the Argos ceased to exist, they would simply be replaced by a team in Quebec City or some other locale in the East.

A city not nearly as large as Toronto. GTO is the largest market in Canada, correct? We think the CFL could lose its largest market and just replace it with Quebec City? Really?

Heck, the team might simply be moved to London and TD Stadium renovated. The CFL would die if the Stamps, Bombers, Esks or Riders ceased to exist. It is those 4 teams that allow the league to command the TV rights money that TSN is shelling out.

Again, you're going to have to explain how the largest municipality in Canada isn't part of the TV equation. But Saskatchewan is?

[Sam Hill]

While you're at it, explain the 49ers' new 68,500-seat stadium.

[phydeaux72]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

While you're at it, explain the 49ers' new 68,500-seat stadium.

Cowboys Stadium officially only seats about 85,000. However, including standing room, maxes out at just over 105,000.

[Shootmaster_44]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Then you should explain the new one they build in Indianapolis that seats 62,421. Or did they change it since, you know, 2008? Also, link, please?

Perhaps I am wrong, but I remember reading that when the whole Bills in Toronto series began. It was cited as a reason why the Bills couldn't move to Toronto permanently as many predicted.

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

A city not nearly as large as Toronto. GTO is the largest market in Canada, correct? We think the CFL could lose its largest market and just replace it with Quebec City? Really?

Again, you're going to have to explain how the largest municipality in Canada isn't part of the TV equation. But Saskatchewan is?

You have to understand that the population is there in Toronto but fan interest is not. The Argos are the red headed stepchild of the Toronto sports market. Attendance has rebounded, but is still shaky from week to week in Toronto. Quebec City is a football hotbed, University football is largely a non-factor in Canada. However, the Universite Laval in Quebec City has phenomenal attendance. They draw over 12,000 fans per game while most are lucky to get 2,000. There are a few other pockets of CIS interest, the Saskatchewan Huskies in Saskatoon being one, but Laval is head and shoulders above everyone. Football in Quebec is growing, football in Ontario seems to be dying.

http://www.universityaffairs.ca/lava...of-dreams.aspx

As far as TV ratings go, you are misunderstanding how things work. Saskatchewan Roughriders interest is not a regional thing like most other teams (or NFL teams are), the highest rated games on TV are those involving the Riders. There are a million people in Saskatchewan, but likely just as many former Saskatchewan residents in the rest of Canada. The Riders are the team in the CFL as far as marketing and fan interest goes.

This article shows that the Riders take the TV ratings up or down based on their fortunes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle5583502/

This is an older article but the truth remains, the Riders sell the third most merchandise of any team in any sports in Canada. They are only behind the Leafs and Habs.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/footba...her_teams.html

The two teams in the Golden Horseshoe were also the only teams last year to lose money.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/03/21...elevision-deal

[Pounder]

My cursory look into NFL says the minimum capacity requirement is 60,000. I remember when it was 50,000 a generation ago. I bet there would be waivers in specific situations.

In the last couple years, it would have taken more appendages than I own to count the number of times someone cited AAA baseball having a minimum requirement of 10,000 fixed seats given NOBODY has built to that standard since perhaps Fresno 11 years ago.

Who reported on this? I'm wondering if 75,000 was a lie intended to push Toronto into "Olympic Stadium consideration." Hey, I grew up in Portland; the Trail Blazers used to cite an NBA requirement of no TV within 75 miles of the arena, a lie told until the dawn of the internet age revealed the truth.

[FootbalFan]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

What?

NFL teams are profitable before they sell ticket one.

An NFL team in Toronto that was getting a cut of the NFL's $4B+ annual national television revenue would not have to build an 80,000 seat downtown stadium, much less fill it.

If this was true, an NFL team would already be there.

When Argos fans show a flag with "CFL is best" during a CFL game, they get kicked out of Rogers Center by security. Rogers doesn't want a CFL team in Toronto, but since the Argos can pay a rent, he allows them in his venue.

It's rather a matter of market, advertising, and profit. NFL teams pay their league big money, pay their players big money, and can get in the blue. The profitability also depends on merchandising, selling corporate sections and yes, SELL tickets. NFL has standards for a new team to join the league and probably Toronto can't meet these standards with Rogers Center.

Looks to me that if the team didn't need to fill the room, there would be no more Argos going on at Rogers Center.