Does cheating taint a championship?

[Caballo Diablo]

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

TO was the public face of what many believe was going on in Allen. Maybe people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones but...Allen signed a lot of well known names in the Indoor circles. Fudge, Avery, Knighton, Yatarrie Brown, Jovan Jackson, Travonti Johnson, Landry, McArdle. Most in one off season. Shopping spree? So if we are going to fly accusations because a team has big names lets include them on the list. We dont discuss them in this conversation as much simply because they couldnt make it work, does that make it more ok? or less of a problem? Is it ok to "cheat" as long as nothing comes of it? Or if the guy that is publicly breaking the rules is part owner? Or has a widely known name and face and could bring attention to the league?

There are pages in this forum about that too, many disagreed with a lot of things they did and know the ownership was all B.S. And as someone else said the league condoned it and the scoundrel there has since joined them as part owner. They are also a farce.

[Caballo Diablo]

Originally Posted by C187

Go ahead and turn into a Storm hater. It wouldn't bother me or any of the Storm fans one bit. I like being a hated franchise. It means were winning. You dont see people hating the Everett Raptors. Being hated doesn't bother me, the more haters, must mean were doin something right. Also Caballo you must be an idiot if you think the Storms violations had anything to do with play on the field.

Yous still haven't learned how to have an adult discussion. It has nothing to do with hate, you can't really be that foolish can you.

No, I'm not hating on the Raptors, but I'm not hating on SF either. Comprehension seems not to be one of your strong points. If it doesn't bother you then why all the namecalling and childish rhetoric?

I haven't singled SF out as the lone cheater, I've said it happens everywhere. I've seen it in many cities. If you think that rusted out van is the only violation the Storm have committed over the years you are mistaken.

There are many ways to get extra compensation and perks to players, it's all part of sports. If you don't think that brings in better players has any affect on what happens on the field you are truly clueless.

And no, being hated doesn't mean you're winning. Re-read your posts and and try real hard to think of another possible reason people don't like you. It has nothing to do with which team you root for.

[Caballo Diablo]

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

Can we bear in mind that other than some rusty van, this is "alleged" cheating from "anonymous" sources. To this point there has been nothing else that has come to light that would suggest that there is proof to any of it, regardless of what anyone, myself included may think.

I've said a few times in this thread that if the only violation is this vehicle, and even if it were free for anyone to use whenever they wanted than my feeling is the punishment is B.S. Yes it might be a violation but the penalty doesn't fit the crime.

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

In 2009 (former owner mind you) we were found guilty of improper or no insurance. We were guilty, we paid or fine (a little harsh we all might agree) and we missed the playoffs in large part because of it.

In my mind the punishment was warranted. Not having the proper insurance to cover the players putting their bodies at risk is unacceptable. Sure it happens, the SIFL in year one lied to the teams and said they had a policy to cover all franchises, it was a lie. They tried to collect premiums from all teams but only one team ever paid. The league never paid the insurance company and wouldn't even return their calls. But who is there to punish the league?

Being a former owner you should have some answers. These questions are in general, not about the Storm.

Is it common for teams to pay some players extra money under the table? Have players ever been given a cash signing bonus? Has a player or anyone in his family recieved money, product, or services secretly behind the scenes? Travel, vehicles, pay for a prearranged job they didn't actually perform?

From my relationship with some owners, coaches, front office personnel, and players this seems to be common practice. The extent usually is determined by the wealth of the team owner.

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

This year is a little different based on the facts that have been presented. We dont really know what the rules state on 3rd provided goods or services.

I would think a former owner would know these things. Most leagues don't have "3rd Party" rules, heck most don't have 1st party rules on "jobs given to players. It's easy to arrange perks from 3rd, 4th, and even 5th party. A lot of things in this sport are bartered, and you can get players jobs, vehicles, meals, entertainment tickets, family travel, etc. It can all be done with a buffer from the team.

Is any of this a violation or on the up and up because it was arranged to be done by someone else? Some can be minor and for only a couple of players and sometime for many players. Does any of this attract better players? Do better players affect what happens on the field?

Can rules violations be classified as "Cheating."

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

to answer the larger question, the title of this thread, NO, I dont think that this will taint our championship.

The title of the thread is "Does cheating taint a championship?" Not does the rusted van taint the SF Championship.

Sorry, I couldn't help my self.

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

Also, someone made the comment earlier that if the Storm weren't guilty then why wasn't Tryon and his legal counsel fighting this. I have learned this the hard way, any married man would agree, that even though you may not think you are wrong, sometimes its best just to take your licks and move on. If I fought tooth and nail every time I thought I was right I wouldnt have time for anything else and I would lead a miserable existence. If I get a speeding ticket and I dont think I deserved it, is it worth my time and effort to fight it? Probably not, pay the fine and move on. SF may have been thinking, we got Lehigh this week, should be pushovers, GB the next, tougher game but we can tread those waters without Riggs and have him back for the United Bowl and then figure out what is best for the team in the offseason.

For the most part I agree, corporations and especially insurance companies seem to settle even when innocent/right just because it's cheaper than prolonged litagation. I just don't believe the league or Storm are being fully upfront about the situation. But some things you do need to stand up for. Such as your reputation.

And before you start calling names again c187, that doesn't mean SF are cheating scumbags hated by everyone on the forum.

[rocky.bighorn]

CD, I wasnt saying I was a forner owner, I am saying that in 2009 the Storm were under different ownership when the insurance infraction took place.

Yes, I would agree in that instance, punishment was warranted. Punishing the players that didnt have insurance with a 5 win forfiet seems a little unjust. We could get into a long discussion about that, and back when it happened there were many long discussions about it. What I will leave it at is, I dont agree with the punishment as it relates to the infraction.

As far as the title of the thread and my response to it, I believe that it was well implied given the timing of the start of this topic and the 122+ comments on it that this is about SF and its winning ways, including this year.

I would agree with your statement that the league AND the Storm have not been fully up-front about this matter. As Bouncer said I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as is the case in almost all disputes. 3 sides to every story right?

In the case of fighting every time your reputation was potentially being tarnished, I would tend to agree with you but, in the case of business and/or sport I think you would have to be on the defensive an awful lot.

[jerry101jlh]

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

CD, I wasnt saying I was a forner owner, I am saying that in 2009 the Storm were under different ownership when the insurance infraction took place.

Yes, I would agree in that instance, punishment was warranted. Punishing the players that didnt have insurance with a 5 win forfiet seems a little unjust. We could get into a long discussion about that, and back when it happened there were many long discussions about it. What I will leave it at is, I dont agree with the punishment as it relates to the infraction.

As far as the title of the thread and my response to it, I believe that it was well implied given the timing of the start of this topic and the 122+ comments on it that this is about SF and its winning ways, including this year.

I would agree with your statement that the league AND the Storm have not been fully up-front about this matter. As Bouncer said I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as is the case in almost all disputes. 3 sides to every story right?

In the case of fighting every time your reputation was potentially being tarnished, I would tend to agree with you but, in the case of business and/or sport I think you would have to be on the defensive an awful lot.

You call it implied, I call it luck of the draw. if SF wasn't at the top would these allegations be surfacing, may be not, but the point of this thread is not to crucify the Storm, but put out a legitimate question which applies to every team in every league that wins a championship and does it by cheating.

[rocky.bighorn]

Originally Posted by jerry101jlh

You call it implied, I call it luck of the draw. if SF wasn't at the top would these allegations be surfacing, may be not, but the point of this thread is not to crucify the Storm, but put out a legitimate question which applies to every team in every league that wins a championship and does it by cheating.

For starters, Jerry you are telling me that it was simply a matter of coincidence that you started this thread, in the IFL message boards, at the time you did, and that is has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the current Storm drama? And then the 120+ comments that have been posted on here for the past 2 weeks, most of which, many by you, that were Storm related was just a matter of chance? Come on, I dont even think you believe that! I'm not calling you a Storm hater like others have *cough* C187 *cough* but if it was another team and not SF I find it hard to belive that this thread even gets started.

Second, it is unfortunate, but I think in the culture of sports today we may need to define what everyone thinks is "cheating" and what isn't. In a backyard game of football cheating is a little more black and white than the business of professional sports. Maybe there are different degrees of "cheating" and they need to be dealt with differently. You can't paint all infractions with the same brush. If you want to say that "cheating" is gaining an unfair advantage on the field of play then what the Patriots were accused of and found guilty of is different than what Barry Bonds has been accused of which is different than the Storm not having Workers comp Insurance. In the essence that all "broke rules" then I guess we say that all "cheated" Now in the case of the Patriots did they gain an unfair advatnage? Yes, I believe they did. If in fact what everyone believes to be true with Bonds and he used PEDs, did he gain an unfair advanatage? Probably, but you still have to hit the ball, and he's only one guy, and if the pitcher that's throwing to him is using then maybe it isn't as unfair as we may think. But I really dislike baseball so I couldnt care less. Now, with the Storm and the insurance deal. Did they gain any advantage by not having insurance to safeguard the players in the event that they were injured while "on-the-clock"? I cannot see how they did. As a matter of fact I may argue that it put them at more of a disadvantage than anything. If a player got seriously hurt or heaven forbid killed while "on-the-clock" the Storm would A) gotten sued faster than you can blink. B) had to pay millions C) had the worst reputation in town and in indoor football. How does any of that classify as "cheating" other than they were supposed to have it and didn't? Did they break a rule? Yes. Did they gain an advatnage on the field? Not really IMO. Now, in the current case of "van-gate" did they break a rule? Apparently yes, but the league chose not to explain what the rules specifically are so maybe they did, maybe they didn't. With what we know, and not what we ASSUME may be going on, did they gain an advantage by being able to recruit a higher level athlete then the next team therefore giving them an unfair advatnage on the field? I highly doubt it. If I were a player that was being sought after I might think it would make me want to go somewhere else if I was going to be rolling in that bucket of bolts. Sticking with the Storm, if more were to come out that they were grossly over paying players, and the best players were coming to SF because of it, then yes that would give them an unfair advatanage within the frame work of the league and would constitute as "cheating" but up to this point that is really just speculation. On the field the Storm play fairly, they play clean (occasional pushing and shoving after the play happens everywhere, its football) they play with emotion, and no one can argue that they have an excellent coaching staff that has them prepared for every game. They dont move the ball ahead 2 yards when no one is looking. They dont put itching powder into the jock straps of the other team.

To the larger part of sports as a whole, everyone is trying to gain any advantage that they can, whenever they can do it. The catcher is trying to pull an outside pitch into make it look like a strike, players are trying to steal signs. the d line is trying to learn the QB cadence and timing so he can get off the line faster, they finally mic'd the defense so the offense couldn't steal the call into the huddle. Basketball players flop to try and get a foul. Is any of that "cheating"? Would we say that when the Giants won the Super Bowl last year is was because after every play the RBs and WRs were putting the ball ahead an extra yard to try and get a better spot? Or the reason the Heat won the NBA Championship was because Lebron was getting calls he shouldnt have? The top level sports teams in leagues that have a cap have figured out ways to skirt the salary cap by back loading player contracts and making them incentive laiden. Maybe all of this can fall under the blanket of "cheating" but I wouldn't say that in many of those cases these person(s) were cheaters and any title they may have was tainted because of it.

[jerry101jlh]

Appears to me that its primarily Storm fans that are keeping the focus on the Storm. I am just replying to what is posted.

But to quote Dan, happened before, will again or in this case Storm broke the rules and it DID happen again lol Sorry, just had to say it lol

[rocky.bighorn]

Originally Posted by jerry101jlh

I have sources that wish to remain anonymous, but are in the know enough that what they say can be taken as truth.

They tell me Sioux Falls players are paid in violation of league rules, anywhere from 400-1000 dollars. The incentive bonuses are based on position for things such as sacks, td's etc. All of which is against the IFL compensation rules. This was from one source. Below is from another.

SF players have openly been telling other players what they get paid in cash per game. They have incentive bonuses based on position for things such as sacks, td's etc. All of which is against the compensation rules. The over payments range anywhere from $400 - $1,000 (from what they say). One player from another IFL team says he saw 6 Dodge 300's, the van at the heart of the recent investigation, a blazer, and Dixon's Cadillac that they are given to drive for personal use. They call them buddy cars. 2 players per car except Dixon. He has his own.

Askew was asked if he could confirm these things and could only confirm the van. His story was backed up by a ticket he received while driving it. He could not confirm the other vehicles with any proof other than his say so. He also could not confirm the overpay as he wasn't with Sioux Falls long enough to personally collect any.

I personally can not confirm any of the above, but sources have been pretty darn right on in the past. What I've said was told to me and may not be 100% accurate, but generally where there's smoke there's fire. If Sioux Falls is breaking rules and their players accepting payments and incentives not in accordance with IFL rules all designed to win a championship I guess that speaks of their integrity and if true hope somewhere proof is found and whatever full penalty allowed by the IFL brought down on the. This is the kind of crap that needs to go away from minor league sports and all sports at any level for that matter.

Comment #1 Jerry. Appears to me that you put the focus squarely on the Storm from the very get go. What's your next excuse?

[jerry101jlh]

Originally Posted by rocky.bighorn

Comment #1 Jerry. Appears to me that you put the focus squarely on the Storm from the very get go. What's your next excuse?

My sources said what they said and yes do point directly to the Storm in this case, but did you miss my closing statement, needs to go away from sports entirely? Clearly that opens this conversation up to any and all who circumvent the rules to get an edge on things.

Had this info come to me regarding Reading or New Mexico, both at the bottom, I would still have posted the info. I have mentioned maybe in this thread and/or others about Allen's attempts to "buy" the championship as well.

As to timing I would have posted this no matter when it was brought to my attention, early season, mid season, after season, whenever.

I realize there is no proof on these allegations, at least none that are in the public eye and I'm not here to try the Storm in any fan based internet court, but we all pretty much know that cheating does happen in this sport and way too much as well. It just needs to end.

OK so next time I get wind of the Storm breaking rules, I'll post it in the CIFL section. I mean duh, its IFL news, where should it be posted?

[Bouncer_Texxx]

Greetings gents, hope everyone had a safe and happy holiday.

Now, back to the question at hand, pr specifically the two seperate yet related questions.

1. Does cheating taint a championship?
2. Did/Do the Sioux Falls Storm indoor football team cheat?

With regards to #1: I still recognize the Saints as Super Bowl XLIV champions, the Cincinnati Reds as the champions of the 1919 World Series, and USC hoisted the college football championship trophy in 2004 All these championships have been marred since then by scandal by winners, or in the case of the Reds, by the losers.

SO, does cheating mar or taint a championship? Absolutely, however in the case of USC and the saints, even without their infractions, I still believe they were the best teams in their sport that year, now my neighborhood Vikings fins might point out that if Brett Favre isn't walking arounf on half a good leg he doesn't throw that pick in the NFC Championship, and maybe the Saints are done after a 50 yard Longwell field goal, but alas, NFC Championship game ending Favre picks are a part of his legacy, right Giant/Packer fans?

What I'm getting at is that the amount of cheating necessary to overcome all of the other competition and competitors on the field, normally, is such that even with some rule bending, it's usually not enough to overcome, and the best team wins. You'd have to have a distinct competitive advantage in order for it to really effect anything.


Now, to #2. I find it plausible, although impractical that the Storm have such a finely tuned network of kickback, sponsors, and cashflow under the table to afford all of the best players in the league. No one could afford that in the long term. The Storm have been through (in my time) 2 sets of owners, (4 or maybe 5 total) and that all of these systems have remained in place with all of the turnover, for 8-10 years or so. Again, to me, plausible, but hard to fathom.

Even with zero misuse of any funds, vehicles, or anything else, everything else being equal, Sioux Falls's coaching staff, training facilities (arena notwithstanding) and sponsors are second to none in the indoor game. It would still be the top destination for players looking to chase rings, ala Miami in the NBA.

I think we're all willing to believe they're cheating, but the burden of proof is on the accuser.