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View Full Version : 1-20-08 Scores


radiodavel
01-20-2008, 09:47 PM
SUN JAN 20

Jacksonville def Reading 112-102
Quad Cities def Chicago 127-105
Dallas def Rockford 123-105

tbayz1
01-20-2008, 09:56 PM
The team websites need to get updated!!

ChumpDumper
01-20-2008, 10:43 PM
Dallas has some real talent. Three players have spent at least some time in the D-League: O'Neal Mims (briefly this season), Ronald Blackshear (two seasons) and a previously unlisted Antonio Meeking. Derek Wabbington started the season in Minot.

Rockford didn't play defense or hit threes until garbage time to make the score respectable; they were down thirty at one point.

200-250 in attendance.

tbayz1
01-20-2008, 11:18 PM
About 250 in attendance.

In a 7,600 seat venue, ouch

But they're not alone, QC is getting 200 fans in a 6,000 seat venue, Reading has quite a large venue with small crowds, Arkansas has a 7,000+ seat venue however there have been no reports about their home openers this weekend, but Im assuming the crowds were small, even Jacksonville who is getting 1,500 a night in a 6,000 seat venue looks like a dismal crowd and same with Rochester, but I think Rochester's attendence will be back to normal as we know it as the season goes on

Maybe some of these teams should have decided to go into smaller venues, especially the 2 expansion teams that just popped up one day (arkansas and dallas) instead of large colessiums. Neither team marketed their product too well either because like I said, it was like they just appeared one day out of the blue and how many people in these cities know about the teams? Obviously the Defenders have been under the radar because there was only 200 some people at their game, these teams need to start promoting!!

I think a smaller college or arena that sits about 2-4k max. would be perfect for some PBL teams and other minor league basketball teams. Its not just the PBL but minor league basketball as a whole does not have great attendence, so I think all the more that would encourage owners to play at smaller locations, at least if they got crowds of 1-2k it wouldn't look like there was no one in attendence.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2008, 11:31 PM
I can't figure out why such a successful marketer as Erin Patton is keeping the Defenders at such a low profile. He certainly seems to be spending money on the team itself. Maybe he's left the strategy up to his students at SMU.

One or two thousand people in the Loos Field House would probably work pretty well the way it is laid out. Eventually they should probably go someplace with proper seats and some premium options. Loos is in a good area and was probably one of the easier venues to secure on whatever notice they may have had.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2008, 11:54 PM
This guy estimated 150-200, but he also overrated the level of play. I'll see if I took the right pictures myself to do a count.

http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jan/20/dallas-defenders-basketball-wins-first-ever-home-g/

DazedAndAmused
01-21-2008, 09:48 AM
The East teams by most accounts are averaging 1000 or so (which I think is respectable for year 1), while the West teams seem to averaging 250 (which needs work for sure.) The difference may be being in or near major league markets.

bdaly
01-21-2008, 01:02 PM
I'm pretty impressed by the size of the crowd in Chicago. While it's obviously a small venue, the stands look pretty full from the pictures on the website. So it's good to see there's progress being made there, and I really expected little to any given how late they joined and how unstable their schedule was (due to their opponents) in their old league. It would be interesting to hear how Arkansas did in the stands.

Overall, parity continues to look pretty strong. While the wins were by a larger margin on Saturday and Sunday, all four games on Friday were decided by three points or less. Pretty impressive (and exciting). Maryland needs to break through one of these games, though.

Ken, Steelheads fan
01-21-2008, 03:05 PM
I can't figure out why such a successful marketer as Erin Patton is keeping the Defenders at such a low profile. He certainly seems to be spending money on the team itself. Maybe he's left the strategy up to his students at SMU.

Why? Lack of money is always a good reason. Lack of common sense is probably a bigger reason when it comes to the Dallas Defenders though. Red flags went up the milli-second a PBL team was announced for the Dallas area (at least I saw the flags flyin'). Dallas doesn't need another professional winter basketball team. The Mavericks seem to be servicing the area quite well.

Guess I wasn't as impressed with the owner's non-basketball related resume as others. Gym shoe marketing doesn't equate to sports team marketing.

DazedAndAmused
01-21-2008, 03:42 PM
History is with you Ken. I am not familiar enough with Dallas to know if there is sufficient distance between where the Mavs play and where the SMU venue is. Also, are the communities the same? Lastly, I wonder if there is any Matt Doherty (SMU coach) and Kenny Smith connection involved here to get that team going.

ChumpDumper
01-21-2008, 03:54 PM
Why? Lack of money is always a good reason. Lack of common sense is probably a bigger reason when it comes to the Dallas Defenders though. Red flags went up the milli-second a PBL team was announced for the Dallas area (at least I saw the flags flyin'). Dallas doesn't need another professional winter basketball team. The Mavericks seem to be servicing the area quite well.

Guess I wasn't as impressed with the owner's non-basketball related resume as others. Gym shoe marketing doesn't equate to sports team marketing.
I suppose it depends on how deep of pockets we are guessing this guy has. Form what I know of this guy he has expanded his business to Dallas and he's teaching there as well, so he's not absentee as I originally thought. He's secured three very recognizable names as sponsors and and has a pretty impressive roster and list of consultants, all of whom were in attendance yesterday. We are talking about a 20 game schedule here; it could be that Patton was concentrating on the operations side more than anything this time around. I agree putting a team in Dallas doesn't make much sense, but now I know why it was done. We'll see how long they last. There were several photo and videographers there; hopefully they are planning some kind of actual marketing campaign.

ChumpDumper
01-21-2008, 04:02 PM
History is with you Ken. I am not familiar enough with Dallas to know if there is sufficient distance between where the Mavs play and where the SMU venue is. Also, are the communities the same? Lastly, I wonder if there is any Matt Doherty (SMU coach) and Kenny Smith connection involved here to get that team going.The team doesn't play at SMU, they play at a Dallas ISD venue in Addison 13 miles north of downtown Dallas where the Mavs play. At least it's in an area no one would be afraid to go.

DazedAndAmused
01-21-2008, 04:27 PM
Thanks. I am not sure where I got the SMU info from. I guess my sources are more "uninformed" than anyones.

Having said that, 13 miles north of town in a decent bedroom community may not be horrible, particularly in a big city like Dallas where you have to drive everywhere (from my past experience.)

mfrerkes
01-28-2008, 08:40 PM
But they're not alone, QC is getting 200 fans in a 6,000 seat venue...
Maybe some of these teams should have decided to go into smaller venues...I think a smaller college or arena that sits about 2-4k max. would be perfect for some PBL teams and other minor league basketball teams. Its not just the PBL but minor league basketball as a whole does not have great attendence, so I think all the more that would encourage owners to play at smaller locations, at least if they got crowds of 1-2k it wouldn't look like there was no one in attendence.
The QC Riverhawks played their first season in a very small college gymansium. It was an absolute dump. I refused to attend any of their games because of that venue choice. I'm know many other people stayed away too. The move to Wharton was a better choice because Quad City basketball history was written in that building.

The problem with some PBL teams is not the venue...it's the marketing, or more precisely, LACK of marketing. The Riverhawks didn't even have a GM or marketing director until the four games into the season. With a season that's not even four months long, that gives no time to spread the word about your product. Honestly, I don't know how the owner expected to sell many tickets with such a fundamentally flawed approach.

I enjoy Riverhawks basketball and hope the PBL can find some way to make itself relevant. However, the league consists of franchises that have NO CLUE on how to sell their product. Kenny Smith can't do it by himself. Each franchise is going to have make a concerted effort to generate local interest. Here in the Quad Cities, that has not happened.

LightningMan
01-28-2008, 09:28 PM
However, the league consists of franchises that have NO CLUE on how to sell their product.
Don't damn the whole league based on QC.

mfrerkes
01-28-2008, 10:29 PM
QC is not the only team in the league that is drawing poorly. There seems to be a real problem with marketing and front office staff for several teams in the PBL.

DazedAndAmused
01-28-2008, 10:43 PM
Which ones in particular? I have posted some attendance stats gathered from the local newspapers. The East is drawing 700 to 3000, with an average of around 1300. The West numbers are harder to come by (and I suspect where you may be referencing), but the latest numbers seem to suggest averages of 500 or so (not terribly impressive, but not doomsday either for a yr 1 league.)

mfrerkes
01-28-2008, 11:01 PM
I have posted some attendance stats gathered from the local newspapers. The East is drawing 700 to 3000, with an average of around 1300. The West numbers are harder to come by (and I suspect where you may be referencing), but the latest numbers seem to suggest averages of 500 or so (not terribly impressive, but not doomsday either for a yr 1 league.)
Why doesn't the PBL post these attendance numbers? Attendance stats from the newspaper tend to be somewhat anecdotal. I know the local newspaper articles on Riverhawks attendance have been based on guess-timates since no official information of this sort can be obtained.

How can any team pay the bills with 500 per game showing up?

DazedAndAmused
01-28-2008, 11:13 PM
I can't answer the question about why the league doesn't post attendance. It is a sad commentary to the state of minor league basketball in general, but I suspect the focus has been on getting games played and box scores up while getting the first year league and several first yr teams off of the ground. So far so good in that regard.

If you really want to look at what it takes to float a team at this level with modest sponorship, you really need to be looking at attendance averages of AT LEAST 2k or more. What that means in general is that even the teams with the best attendance are not close to profitable (in all leagues.) I have yet to find a profitable minor league basketball team in any league and I have been looking and interviewing for 2.5 yrs. While that sounds pessimistic, there are fringe benefits (community relationships, synergies with other businesses) that can make these teams fruitful for the owners....but it won't be on the team's P & L statement.

So, in the end, the attendance numbers that make it worth while for a particular ownership group and market will vary, but 500 per game average for some of these teams in their first or second years is not terribly discouraging. At least with a relatively solid league around you (unlike where most of these teams came from), you at least have a chance to build the fan base.

mfrerkes
01-29-2008, 12:11 AM
I hope the PBL is successful in doing that. I really hope the QC Riverhawks will start making an effort to attract fans to their games. The overall product is good, but some of the business fundamentals seem horribly lacking.

I'm trying to figure out why the PBL would accept an organization like the Riverhawks, who clearly had no real business plan or personnel to make the franchise successful. The ABA awarded a franchise to anyone who paid the entry fee. I was expecting the PBL to be far more prudent about admitting its member clubs.

DazedAndAmused
01-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Again, quite honestly, I believe that governing the clubs at the level of operations was secondary (aside from statistics and following basic guidelines) to ensuring a plan was in place that guaranteed all teams could make it through the season (financially and historically if not a new team), with concentration on the rest of the league's systems and team building coming after the foundation has been built. I don't much personally about QC, but I think they have been on stable ground in terms of stability and following basic league protocols. Hopefully they will pick up their marketing effort. The whole thing has alot more credibility after a full solid sucessful season behind them.