PDA

View Full Version : Rochester Razorsharks caught in attendance lie


death watch
01-13-2008, 04:52 PM
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080113/SPORTS/801130312/1007/SPORTS

In the article above you will see that the Rochester Razorshakrs announced attendance for the home opener was 3,081.

The Rochester D & C claims that no more then 1,500 fans were in attendance for the home opener.

Eye witness reports I have from people at the game have the actual attendance for the home opener at less then 1,000 fans.

The attendance at today's game vs Jax Jam was announced at 1,297. People I have talked with say that again less then 1,000 actual fans were at the game.

The Razorsharks were famous for having a large fan base of around 4,000 fans per game. They did not even draw fans for opening weekend. Where have the fans gone ?????

bdaly
01-13-2008, 05:10 PM
Teams always announced paid attendance, not actual. They have a season ticket base of over 1K, so obviously you're not going to see crowds below that. Whether they, especially sponsors, opt to show up instead of watching the NFL is another challenge.

As I've explained, they probably have a core of 1-2K. Beyond that, they've used "gimmicks" like a concert (Quebec) and free tickets (Cape Cod) to post crowds of 6-7K to get their average over 3K. If the crowds don't pick up over the next two or three games, I'll be concerned. But they've posted crowds like this before.

Ultimately, this was a hard weekend. Lots of high school basketball, the Chase Tournament, the NFL, and three other pro events at the arena (including 11K to watch the Knighthawks). As I also posted, they expected a very small crowd today. It's not a surprise to them. Now they have to try to make up for it.

death watch
01-13-2008, 05:21 PM
A home opener is usually the largest crowd of the season. No NFL football was going on during the home opener.

If they had less then 1,500 to a home opener after all of this extra time to promote it then I would be nervous.

Announcing a crowd at 3,081 when less then 1,000 were seen at the game would mean that 2,000 people who had purchased tickets to the home opener did not show up ??? I Find that VERY hard to believe.

In a new league honesty can go a long way.

Jax Jam and Reading Railers had stronger opening night attendance numbers (actual fans) then Rochester.

preeths
01-13-2008, 05:30 PM
death watch, bdaly is correct. Nearly everyone in sports announces paid attendance - tickets distributed to paying fans and sponsors who gave something for them. Most likely this was not a lie. Home openers are frequently the largest attendance of the season, but nowhere near always. Rochester has a few night home games. Let's see what those draw.

bdaly
01-13-2008, 05:51 PM
A home opener is usually the largest crowd of the season. No NFL football was going on during the home opener.
No. But I have already mentioned their other competition in town. And, realistically, the average fan can only watch so much sports.


Announcing a crowd at 3,081 when less then 1,000 were seen at the game would mean that 2,000 people who had purchased tickets to the home opener did not show up ??? I Find that VERY hard to believe.

I was told by an usher that they provided tickets to a few community organizations that they partner with and they were lightly utilized. Not good that people left them unused, but it explains the difference. The Razorsharks do have a good number of sponsors too. Finally, the D&C said 1,500 were there, not "up to" that number.

In the end, it's unfortunate that the culture in minor league basketball is so toxic among some. They had a poor weekend by their standards, no doubt. But, it's always interesting to see the dogs get released so quickly. They've drawn a few crowds like this before. It's not the end of the world. They just need to make up for it. They have before. Hopefully they will again.

death watch
01-13-2008, 06:17 PM
So the Razorsharks gave away over 1,500 tickets for the home opener to people who did not want them and did not use them and then they included those tickets in the attendance numbers.

VERY abaish.......

bdaly
01-13-2008, 06:31 PM
So the Razorsharks gave away over 1,500 tickets for the home opener to people who did not want them and did not use them and then they included those tickets in the attendance numbers.

Hilarious. I love it when people only read what they want to read. That's part of the equation. Teams actually do donate tickets to community groups that they work with. The team donates $30 per three-point bucket at home to Golisano Children's Hospital. How terrible. They might actually give them a few seats too. They did take out an ad in their program, though.

As we've discussed, teams that actually have sponsors provide them with tickets as part of the package. It happens at all levels, including the big leagues. Sometimes they don't use these tickets. So it doesn't mean every person that didn't show up was a freebie. Yes, it's more likely that someone with a free ticket won't show, though. And, yes, attendance shown throughout sports is a reflection of tickets distributed.

Anyway, that'll be my final comment on this thread. I don't like getting into the agendas that some have with leagues or people. I just go, buy my ticket, and watch the game. It's more fun that way. I comment when I feel it's necessary. But I don't have "sources" that I supposedly talk to to fuel threads like these.

heavesrock
01-13-2008, 08:31 PM
I'm sorry Bdaly, but I have a hard time believing that you have a season ticket base of 1,000. Some Major league teams likely don't even have that. If you do, you probably lead all of minor league basketball.

death watch
01-13-2008, 09:00 PM
Heavesrock. Bdaly is either full of it or blinded by his love of his team.


Actual fans in attendance at Rochester Razorshark games so far this season has not even gone over the 1,000 fan mark at any game.

This guy has the nerve to post that they have 1,000 season ticket holders when they have not even had 1,000 in the seats to a game yet LOL.

PBL is looking ABAish in many ways..........

DazedAndAmused
01-13-2008, 09:27 PM
Death Watch, hopefully you wont' have to fold 5 games into your NPBL season in Elmira....good luck with that!

death watch
01-13-2008, 10:05 PM
check my IP. I am not even close to Elmira.

Just happens that not every one is sold on the PBL as much as you.

Attendance numbers were shady and I would have pointed that out in any league.

Only league in my book that is worthy of a free pass is the D-league because of the proven track record.

Go back to being Dazed.

death watch
01-13-2008, 10:11 PM
Also.......

If the NPBL ends up looking more like the EBA which probably will happen, then I will rip on them.

I happen to know a player on the HV Hawks and I am giving them thin ice to skate on right now. They break the ice and it is open season.

DazedAndAmused
01-13-2008, 10:16 PM
deathwatch, my apologies to you for such an accusation. however, you write like corning,and your motives look the same. do you dispute the local newspaper article regarding attendance? it sounds like you do. but hey, if your friend was there........

the aba was actually too good for corning/elmira, so good for you for not being associated.

alkaline137
01-13-2008, 10:27 PM
I'm sorry Bdaly, but I have a hard time believing that you have a season ticket base of 1,000. Some Major league teams likely don't even have that. If you do, you probably lead all of minor league basketball.

While 1,000 would be a huge season ticket number for minor league sports (especially basketball), there is no major league team that doesn't have at least 1,000. Trust me.

As for this attendance issue, every minor league team announces "paid" attendance, meaning the number of tickets that have been sold, given to sponsors, given to friends/family/players, etc. I've worked in minor league sports for years (including minor league basketball) and no team ever announces the turnstile attendance. Sometimes they have a figure of how many tickets were sold/given away, other times it is as basic as someone looking at the crowd and estimating the number (very advanced, I know).

While the Sharks have some of the larger crowds in minor league basketball, they have often had trouble filling the arena when there are many other things going on (and as Bdaly pointed out, there were many different things going on this weekend). I'm sure the attendance will pick up as the season moves on. They are great at marketing and more fans will catch on once the press picks up. Seeing as how the team abruptly left another league to join a new one and hasn't played in 10 months, it isn't surprising they're struggling at the gate early.

bdaly
01-13-2008, 10:27 PM
I'm sorry Bdaly, but I have a hard time believing that you have a season ticket base of 1,000. Some Major league teams likely don't even have that. If you do, you probably lead all of minor league basketball.
I know I said I wouldn't post, but since this is a pertinent question not tied to politics I'll post again. I'm going by a segment on Rnews, which I posted in another thread. A season ticket count gives you an idea of the smallest crowd a team can post. Obviously, "announced attendance" will never be lower than the season ticket base. On bad days, as was the case with today's game, you see what it really is (plus one or two hundred).

The Rnews segment said it was 1,500, but most teams count "flex packs" into that number (as .5 season tickets), or packages where fans redeem tickets when they feel like it. When people don't redeem them (as they opt for another game), like today, they don't count. So I'd guess they have around 1,000-1,100 season ticket holders with several hundred flex pack holders. That season ticket base can and probably does include sponsors who receive tickets too, so that's important to bare in mind too.

I haven't followed other leagues terribly closely, but I'd bet a team like Yakama has 1,000+ given how steady their numbers seem to be, as do a few of the top D-League teams. I'd say all major league teams are well, well above that number. I know many NHL teams set their goals at 12-14K. I know our AHL hockey team is around 4,000, the AAA team is around 3,000, and the NLL team is around 5,000 (based on newspaper articles over the past few years) as a few minor league examples. So I actually don't consider it a great number that they're at, but it's not terrible for basketball, either.

death watch
01-13-2008, 10:28 PM
Two other posters posted a turnstile number of 856 at the game. That number is close to what I was told. The paper tossed out a generic 1,500 number.

Either way it was not even in the ball park of 3,081.

For a home opener if 856 walk in and the team announces 3,081
that would raise an eye brow for most sports fans.

alkaline137
01-13-2008, 10:37 PM
Do you really think the ABA teams are being as truthful in their anounced attendances? I highly doubt it.

bdaly
01-13-2008, 10:39 PM
While the Sharks have some of the larger crowds in minor league basketball, they have often had trouble filling the arena when there are many other things going on (and as Bdaly pointed out, there were many different things going on this weekend). I'm sure the attendance will pick up as the season moves on.
Great post. I wouldn't have posted had I read it, but we posted at the same time. Interesting to note the AHL team, current ranked fourth in the AHL at over 7,200 per game, drew its smallest announced crowd in 11 years today at a tad over 3,900, with a similar discrepancy between actual and paid. The market was oversaturated this weekend here and the NFL didn't help, it's safe to say. Of course, it's probably the worst Amerks team we've had in a decade or so too, which doesn't help.

bdaly
01-13-2008, 10:43 PM
Two other posters posted a turnstile number of 856 at the game. That number is close to what I was told. The paper tossed out a generic 1,500 number.
One other posted claimed to have heard that from the building GM. The turnstile number was never released, and it is in fact never released. Even the paper is guessing, although I trust their guess a little more. I did a count of one side of the arena--I was actually there--and I'm inclined to go with the paper's estimate. It's still not good, but the issues have been discussed. Now, I'm really done with this thread. I won't even open it so I'm not tempted again; gotta have some self control. ;)

death watch
01-13-2008, 10:46 PM
Not sure but I think I heard that the Amerks for the first time in a long time will not be an affliate of the Buffalo Sabres this season ?

If this is true maybe that is a reason for low attendence and poor talent.

This is just what I heard , maybe some one from Rochester can comment further on the Amerks/Sabres relationship.

alkaline137
01-13-2008, 11:09 PM
Not sure but I think I heard that the Amerks for the first time in a long time will not be an affliate of the Buffalo Sabres this season ?

If this is true maybe that is a reason for low attendence and poor talent.

This is just what I heard , maybe some one from Rochester can comment further on the Amerks/Sabres relationship.

They are currently in a dual affiliation with the Sabres and Florida Panthers, but the affiliation with the Sabres will end after this season. I'm not sure how many seasons they've had a dual affiliation, but the Panthers are rumored to become the sole parent team next season.

death watch
01-13-2008, 11:24 PM
You would think with the amerks and sabres location they would want to stay partners.

What is the reason for the split ?

tbayz1
01-14-2008, 05:11 AM
Im not a huge hockey fan, but yep thats true. I think the Sabres are looking for an affliate either somewhere in Canada or I even heard a team in Maine

I haven't really followed this topic all that well, so I don't really know why they are ending their affiliation, ill get back to you on that D-Watch ;)

rams80
01-14-2008, 12:38 PM
You would think with the amerks and sabres location they would want to stay partners.

What is the reason for the split ?

From what I have been led to understand by browsing elsewhere, the two organizations hate each other's guts and have for some time.

The dual affiliation has been around for 2-3 years, I forget which.

death watch
01-14-2008, 03:28 PM
That is to bad. I think a connection between the Sabres and Amerks would be a great thing for hockey fans in that area. Sounds like perhaps the big wigs between the two teams need to sit down and work things out for the good of Hockey in Western, NY.

Sam Hill
01-14-2008, 04:31 PM
check my IP. I am not even close to Elmira.

Just happens that not every one is sold on the PBL as much as you.

I'm not sold on the PBL at all, for one. They're a week into their first season.

A week into its first season, the ABA had drawn 6,000 in Detroit and 5,000 in Los Angeles. It took a bit of time before they did the First Annual ABA Season Truncated for TV ploy. And then the wheels came off by week two of the second season.

You can't make the ABA look better by just pointing out that other leagues don't all have their junk together, either.

You and TR Waters are fighting a losing battle. You're not going to change anyone's opinions on the ABA. Seven years of crap can't be undone.

LightningMan
01-14-2008, 04:46 PM
You can't make the ABA look better by just pointing out that other leagues don't all have their junk together, either.
And it seems to me that making the PBL look bad is the true purpose of this thread. This discrepancy has been explained and yet there still continues to be an attempt to shade this as something untoward. Well, I'll take the Rochester "lie" and the PBL playing every game on its schedule so far over the ABA's mass defection season to date.

Will the PBL live? Will the PBL work? We'll see. But so far I'm glad the Sea Dawgs are here and not there.

tbayz1
01-14-2008, 05:35 PM
That is to bad. I think a connection between the Sabres and Amerks would be a great thing for hockey fans in that area. Sounds like perhaps the big wigs between the two teams need to sit down and work things out for the good of Hockey in Western, NY.

Ok,

Basically the Sabres want their own team and not share it like they are with Rochester and the Florida Panthers, so instead of renewing the affiliation, the Sabres want their own team

Funny thing is our owner is a Rochester native and lives there lol

rams80
01-14-2008, 06:19 PM
That is to bad. I think a connection between the Sabres and Amerks would be a great thing for hockey fans in that area. Sounds like perhaps the big wigs between the two teams need to sit down and work things out for the good of Hockey in Western, NY.

The Americans have been around longer than the Sabres have. Something tells me their survival is not dependent upon having cordial relations with Buffalo.

blanketman
01-14-2008, 08:04 PM
DR.Sev is a great wealthy owner. He is the c.o.b of the PBL. He does not need the money. This is his hobby. He is a doctor and made all his money in real estate in the early 90s. Dont worry about him. Now Donner on the other hand is a different story. However, you are right there were only a few people,around 900, that have been at the first 2 home games.

blanketman
01-14-2008, 08:06 PM
The razorsharks are fine. Sev is a good owner.