attendance

[heavesrock]

Current CBA attendance

Place team reported Total Average
1. Yakama - 9 - 29,401 - 3,267
2. Minot - 9 - 12,875 - 1,431
3. Rio Grande Valley- 7- 8,532 - 1,219
4. East Kentucky -13 - 15,399 - 1,185
5. Butte - 11 - 11,241 - 1,022
6. Albany - 10 - 9,956 - 996
7. Oklahoma - 7 - 6,057 - 865
8. Atlanta - 3 - 2,243 - 748
9. Great Falls - 11 - 5,498 500
10. Pittsburgh - 15 - 7,294 486

CBA Total reported attendance: 109,047 CBA AVerage: 1,148

CBA attendance over the team's last four home games. Atlanta is not included.

1. Yakama -13,646- 3,412
2. Minot - 5,776- 1,444
3. East Kentucky- 4,822- 1,206
4. Butte - 3,916- 979
5. Rio Grande- 3,791- 948
6. Albany - 3,735- 934
7. Oklahoma- 3,113- 778
8. Pittsburgh- 2,421- 605
9. Great Falls- 1,750- 438

Top 10 CBA crowds of this season

1. 3,691 (Yakama)
2. 3,628 (Yakama)
3. 3,534 (Yakama)
4. 3,345 (Yakama)
5. 3,261 (Yakama)
6. 3,169 (Yakama)
7. 3,156 (Yakama)
8. 3,005 (Yakama)
9. 2,618 (Yakama)
10. 2,508 (Rio Grande)

Lowest 10 CBA crowds this season

1. 163 (Pittsburgh)
2. 222 (Pittsburgh)
3. 225 (Great Falls)
4. 250 (Great Falls)
5. 258 (Pittsburgh)
6. 291 (Pittsburgh)
7. 300 (Rio Grande)
8. 312 (Pittsburgh)
9. 319 (Pittsburgh)
10. 387 (Pittsburgh)

[psbf]

what I've seen in the stats, I would say Atlanta average over 700. Some will disagree, but I have no reason to go against that.

[psbf]

to add that the Xplosion win at RGV last night attracted 300.

[heavesrock]

Unfortunately the stats are wrong. Atlanta has reported attendance for only 4 games. Numerous sources have said that Atlanta averages 100 or less. Standard I believe said he knew someone at the game who said there was only 100. Zeke who is involved with the EK organization went to the EK games in Atlanta and said there was only about 50-75 people there.

[Patroons1]

While not very impressive average season league numbers, they do appear to have improved by 10% over last 4 games which is the right direction (if my math is right). Also, if you figure that it costs $500-$800K per year to run a team (depending greatly on arena contracts, if payroll is max'd, if first year franchise fee is paid, travel is THE killer, etc...), each team has $100K in income from sponsors per year and tickets cost $10 per for the 1100 average, the average loss per team would be around $75-$225K, for the first half of the season. Yakama on the "breakeven side" and Great Falls, unfortunately, losses probably well above the high end average and the rest of the teams, somewhere in between. The good news, CBA is in it for the long hall (or would not have incurred these losses even this far), appears to have the deep pockets to get this far and business plan apparently still suggests that the eventual value of the franchise will at least offset some of these losses. With NBDL, PBL, ABA etc. on equally shakey or even less stable ground, last league standing may emerge as the winner. With 60 years behind the CBA, surviving and re-emerging in more challenging times than this, I like the CBA's chances!

[psbf]

I feel the same way! I think the CBA has a good future.

[DakotaWizardsFan]

With NBDL, PBL, ABA etc. on equally shakey or even less stable ground, last league standing may emerge as the winner.

Whoa, how is the D-League on shaky ground? It's the best minor league out there no doubt. I love the CBA, but come on, the D-League has more talent and it has a connection with the NBA. It's not going to fail.

The ABA is definitely on shaky ground. And I don't know about the PBL since I don't pay a whole lot of attention to it.

[heavesrock]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I guess a few teams may be on shaky ground but I don't really know, but is definately more stable than any other league out there.

[DakotaWizardsFan]

I'm not sure how every team is doing, but all of the former CBA teams (Dakota, Sioux Falls, Idaho, Colorado) are very strong teams. They've got good attendance (well, Colorado is under 2000, but the other three are over 2500) and three of the four teams are at or above .500. It's unfortunate for the CBA that those teams ever left. That was the CBA's downfall. I'm not saying that the CBA is going to fold eventually, but just that it's no longer the best minor league out there.

Here are some D-League attendance numbers (not every game is reported at my source however):
DLEAGUE Attendance Report, as of 01/11/08

Team Games Attendance Average

Albuquerque 6 13903 2317.2
Anaheim 6 8614 1435.7
Austin 11 22324 2029.5
Bakersfield 7 14617 2088.1
Colorado 6 9941 1656.8
Dakota 10 26745 2674.5
Fort Wayne 9 32844 3649.3
Idaho 9 25075 2786.1
Iowa 8 29123 3640.4
Los Angeles 0 0 0.0
Rio Grande Valley 5 21077 4215.4
Sioux Falls 9 34664 3851.6
Tulsa 2 5819 2909.5
Utah 13 45222 3478.6

League Total: 101 289968 2871.0
http://stats.howesportsdata.com/howesportsdata/stats/basket/nbdl/info0091.txt

[heavesrock]

Just why did those teams leave the CBA?

And this may not be true, but I have heard that a few D-League inflate attendance.

[DakotaWizardsFan]

I think the teams thought they'd have a better opportunity in the D-League since it was starting to have such a strong connection to the NBA.
EDIT:
I found some old Bismarck Tribune articles about the switch to the D-League.
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/03/29/news/topnews/112371.txt
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/04/06/news/sports/local/112842.txt
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/04/07/news/topnews/112852.txt

The Wizards definitely don't inflate attendance. I've been to every game and it looked like there was the same amount of people that they reported. I can't speak for the other teams though.

[psbf]

when watching them play on cable, I believe their attendence to be accurate.
I had to make sure I was reading that article correctly, they were losing money while in the CBA, so they join a more expensive league.

[Patroons1]

What I meant by shaky ground is the same problem all minor leagues have. While the NBA is certainly a HUGE backer unlikely to allow the NBDL to fail, the teams are still owned/operated locally. I understand the NBDL yearly fee for players is $350,000...that's a pretty big single line item for any minor league budget. That means alot more fans are needed to break even. 9 of the 14 NBDL teams are under 3000 average attendance and 5 are under 2500 average attendance which spells out "red" operations for the majority of teams. You do bring up a good point, I didn't mean to suggest the CBA survive at the expense of the NBDL. I think, at least would like to think, there is enough room for both. The CBA was dealt a huge blow when those teams defected but will re-emerge stronger, for sure.

[ChumpDumper]

From what I have been seeing and reading this season, I'm not quite as apprehensive about some D-League teams as I originally was -- namely the SW Basketball teams. Albuquerque has the potential for benefiting from choosing between three venues hungry to fill dates and Tulsa could experience some further stability in its market from the arrival of the Sonics down the turnpike. It's a little too early for them to give up the ghost since it doesn't seem like the dead end Fort Worth was.

Bakersfield, Anaheim and Colorado are probably the most disappointing franchises as far as attendance goes. I imagine the 14ers are in it for the long haul and the others seem to have fairly deep pockets and/or sponsorship deals so I don't see much happening this summer as far as teams moving or folding.

I'm very impressed by the performance of the expansion teams this season. Not a stinker in the bunch. That bodes well for continued net growth.

[rams80]

For those pointing to a recent upturn as a good sign, doesn't attendance usually go up this time of year?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

While not very impressive average season league numbers, they do appear to have improved by 10% over last 4 games which is the right direction (if my math is right). Also, if you figure that it costs $500-$800K per year to run a team (depending greatly on arena contracts, if payroll is max'd, if first year franchise fee is paid, travel is THE killer, etc...), each team has $100K in income from sponsors per year and tickets cost $10 per for the 1100 average, the average loss per team would be around $75-$225K, for the first half of the season. Yakama on the "breakeven side" and Great Falls, unfortunately, losses probably well above the high end average and the rest of the teams, somewhere in between. The good news, CBA is in it for the long hall (or would not have incurred these losses even this far), appears to have the deep pockets to get this far and business plan apparently still suggests that the eventual value of the franchise will at least offset some of these losses. With NBDL, PBL, ABA etc. on equally shakey or even less stable ground, last league standing may emerge as the winner. With 60 years behind the CBA, surviving and re-emerging in more challenging times than this, I like the CBA's chances!

Your forecasts are far too rosey. $100,000 in income from sponsors (surely, you don't mean cash)?!? Average income from ticket sales at $10 per ticket @ 1100 fans (surely, you don't mean cash again)?!? Deep pockets?!? I can't think of one ownership group in the CBA with deep pockets. Not one.

[Patroons1]

OK, Ken Steelhead fan...gimme a break ! Actually, I"m a relative new comer and I find you kinda amusing. :p Let's pick the least rosey that we can....we can assume that the CBA draws (1) 0 fans, $0 sponsorship (absolutely NO income) and has an expense budget of $500-800K per year, in that case, each team looses $250K to 400K each season half. In this case, one concludes that somebody has deep pockets because NO ONE has folded yet which is a FACT, right? OR (2) Since no one has deep pockets (you're other conclusion) and since almost no one attends games or sponsors "with cash" , no one is being paid anywhere, arena are being stiffed, airlines are being stiffed, hotels are being stiffed, hot dog men are out of work, players are homeless. lights are off but.....NO ONE has folded and with only a couple exception, players are still playing, getting on planes and hotels and arenas are still letting players in.

So if few go, few sponsors provide cash, no one has deep pockets, how can they still be playing, staying in hotels, getting on airplanes with the budget that these teams have???

After that exercise, I still like my assumptions which does admit a margin of error but appears to suggest somewhat of a more reasonable conclusion based on the fact that we're still here and that in most casees, someone is making up the operating differences (whatever it is!) which I suggested to be in the range of $75-225K for "most" teams with some outliers on either end! That is also far from rosey and must problems must be fixed because no pocket is THAT deep, but com'on, give 'em some credit.

The CBA has had it's issues not unlike any other league, some teams appear to be struggling bad, they are no guarantees but there ARE bright spots for now and I think the future. In the mean time, the CBA is playing and Gary's not, so enjoy the games.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

OK, Ken Steelhead fan...gimme a break ! Actually, I"m a relative new comer and I find you kinda amusing. :p Let's pick the least rosey that we can....we can assume that the CBA draws (1) 0 fans, $0 sponsorship (absolutely NO income) and has an expense budget of $500-800K per year, in that case, each team looses $250K to 400K each season half. In this case, one concludes that somebody has deep pockets because NO ONE has folded yet which is a FACT, right? OR (2) Since no one has deep pockets (you're other conclusion) and since almost no one attends games or sponsors "with cash" , no one is being paid anywhere, arena are being stiffed, airlines are being stiffed, hotels are being stiffed, hot dog men are out of work, players are homeless. lights are off but.....NO ONE has folded and with only a couple exception, players are still playing, getting on planes and hotels and arenas are still letting players in.


We aren't making any such assumptions. YOU seem to be though.


So if few go, few sponsors provide cash, no one has deep pockets, how can they still be playing, staying in hotels, getting on airplanes with the budget that these teams have???


How?!? Theft of services (especially in the case of Great Falls). People go to jail for that.

The CBA has had it's issues not unlike any other league, some teams appear to be struggling bad, they are no guarantees but there ARE bright spots for now and I think the future. In the mean time, the CBA is playing and Gary's not, so enjoy the games.

Remember? Gary's not playing. I can't enjoy games that aren't being played. 8)

[Patroons1]

OK, got it. CBA has little/no income, no deep pockets and theft of services is keeping the league going... :confused:

Let's just call a truce...I get the message. I like the CBA and you don't, I hope they succeed, you hope they fail... we'll leave it at that.

I hope all the leagues do well and fix their problems so we can enjoy the games for a long time. By the way, I meant enjoy the CBA games, you are right, you can't enjoy Gary or the IBL until they start.

Nice talking to you.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

OK, got it. CBA has little/no income, no deep pockets and theft of services is keeping the league going... :confused:

Let's just call a truce...I get the message. I like the CBA and you don't, I hope they succeed, you hope they fail... we'll leave it at that.

I hope all the leagues do well and fix their problems so we can enjoy the games for a long time. By the way, I meant enjoy the CBA games, you are right, you can't enjoy Gary or the IBL until they start.

Nice talking to you.

It really isn't about what I like or dislike. I simply learned to put away my big foam fan finger. Once I put the big finger in storage, I began to see things clearer. You'll see what I mean as time passes.

[Pounder]

Put it this way, because I've told psbf that Pittsburgh (and the league in general) need more fans with the big foam fingers...

...OSC does not seem to be the place where wearing the big foam finger wins the argument.

This argument depends on cold hard numbers. The kind of things going on in Great Falls and Atlanta, in 99% of like cases, end in franchise death. The CBA has a lot of holes, and there's a strong possibility that they're burning through cash reserves to get this season finished. Deep pockets only remain deep for so long. No big foam finger overcomes this reality.

BTW, debating me or Ken doesn't help the league survive. Recruiting 500 fans who buy the big foam fingers is a better solution... and don't wait for the team to do it for you.

[psbf]

that our numbers have been nothing close to anything to write home about. But I think the winning streak will help and I've again contacted the X in the hopes they will promote more. Only 6 homes games left for us.
As far as attendence, some may claim of inflated numbers. I was thinking about that this am. If the numbers are down lower than listed, then how can teams afford to travel and lodge, especially if owners have shallow pockets? Answer-they can't. This means the turnout figures would have to be close to what is given.
Despite some negativity, I have to believe that the league is better than given credit for. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think the CBA has a bright future although maybe merging with the PBL may not be so bad. I've always wanted to see an Xplosion rivalry with Rochester(just as the Riverhounds used to have).

[Sam Hill]

But I think the winning streak will help and I've again contacted the X in the hopes they will promote more.

How's that working out for you?

If the numbers are down lower than listed, then how can teams afford to travel and lodge, especially if owners have shallow pockets? Answer-they can't. This means the turnout figures would have to be close to what is given.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is circular logic at its finest. Q.E.Freaking.D.

No, it does not mean the turnout figures have to be close to what is given. It could mean they're either losing boatloads of money (or paying on credit or borrowing from whoever they can) or they're not paying their bills.

Please - get out the foam finger. Don't use it as a mouse.

[psbf]

concentrate on the cities that you know about, Sam. If I want to be optimistic on the Xplosion, I will be! Not you or anyone else on here will change that! I'm a diehard, something that you don't know anything about or maybe forgot. I guess I should be ignoring all negative posts about the X, but I feel it is my right to defend my team.

[Sam Hill]

How's that working out for you?

Your team is either going to survive or it's going to join the scrap heap, like 99% of other minor league basketball franchises. You contacting them to ask them to promote more is going to have zero impact on the equation.

And I don't have to know anything about your city. I wasn't even mentioning your city or saying anything about it. I was saying that you're blinded by your fandom and you should stay out of substantive discussions because you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Kev the Cav]

Only 6 homes games left for us.


Wow. I went and looked at the X's schedule after I read this. That is tough to have so much season left, but only 6 at home.

In Oklahoma, I worry about the low attendance, but I think we have 15 more at home. We have some promotions coming up that I think will give us at least 4 big crowds. They are even getting Miss America (she's from Lawton, OK) to come sing the national anthem and sign autographs on Monday the 28th. Not sure what drawing power she has, but it should at least increase the media coverage.

Tonight was the 1st time I saw the television crew from Wichita Falls TX in the building filming. They are about 45 minutes away from Lawton and are our local CBS station, but I've never seen TV people in the building except for the station based here in Lawton.

[psbf]

to your opinion, on the Xplosion, Sam(as is everyone). As long as you know that's all it is.
Cavs, the Xplosion had mostly home games in the first half, so it balances the schedule that they are mostly away now. But this a true test to see if they can make it to the playoffs.

[Patroons1]

Anyone catch the Iowa or Idaho NBDL games on the NBA channel this week? Yikes...for the 4th and 7th leading attendance draws in the league, places sure looked empty sports fans! NBDL fans in glass (empty) houses should not throw stones. Compared to the Butte web cast on right now vs. Albany, I like the CBA's chances more and more!

[ChumpDumper]

The D-League games broadcast this week were showcase games mainly for scouts. No games were played in Iowa and NBAtv has never televised a game played in Des Moines. All of this week's games were played in Idaho, so only their games two should be judged for attendance. From what I saw, the Stampede's attendance was pretty normal for the first game and below average for the second.

If you want to see weak crowds, check out the games at Bakersfield when they show them or watch the internet feed of a weeknight 14er game.

[heavesrock]

Place team reported Total Average
1. Yakama - 12 - 39,357 - 3,280
2. Minot - 11 - 14,322 - 1,302
3. Rio Grande Valley- 8- 9,462 - 1,183
4. East Kentucky- 14 - 16,451 - 1,175
5. Butte - 13 - 13,616 - 1,047
6. Albany - 10 - 9,956 - 996
7. Oklahoma - 9 - 7,724 - 858
8. Atlanta - 3 - 2,243 - 748
9. Great Falls- 11 - 5,498 - 500
10. Pittsburgh- 15 - 7,294 - 486


The CBA has drawn 125,923 fans to 106 reported dates, for an average of 1,188.


Over their last four home games, teams (with the exclusion of Atlanta) are drawing:

1. Yakama -13,662 -3,416
2. Minot - 5,755- 1,439
3. East Kentucky- 4,760- 1,190
4. Butte - 4,474- 1,119
5. Albany - 3,735- 934
6. Oklahoma -3,144 -786
7. Rio Grande- 3,099- 775
8. Pittsburgh- 2,421- 605
9. Great Falls- 1,750- 438


The CBA has drawn 34 crowds over 1,000. 12 of these have been in Yakima.

The ten largest crowds drawn by a team that doesn't start with the letter Y are:

1. 2,508- Rio Grande
2. 2,217- East Kentucky
3. 1,721- Minot
4. 1,622- Rio Grande
5. 1,510- Albany
6. 1,486- Oklahoma
7. 1,468- Minot
8. 1,451- Minot
9. 1,447- Minot
10. 1,438- Minot

[DazedAndAmused]

Thanks Heaves. Are ATL numbers believed to be accurate?

[Aaronhere]

Place team reported Total Average
1. Yakama - 12 - 39,357 - 3,280
2. Minot - 11 - 14,322 - 1,302
3. Rio Grande Valley- 8- 9,462 - 1,183
4. East Kentucky- 14 - 16,451 - 1,175
5. Butte - 13 - 13,616 - 1,047
6. Albany - 10 - 9,956 - 996
7. Oklahoma - 9 - 7,724 - 858
8. Atlanta - 3 - 2,243 - 748
9. Great Falls- 11 - 5,498 - 500
10. Pittsburgh- 15 - 7,294 - 486

Now compare this to the 1992-93 CBA Attendance figures. It makes a fan of this league cry:
179,503 - Rapid City Thrillers
154,406 - Fort Wayne Fury
126,752 - Oklahoma City Cavalry
122,723 - Rockford Lightning
117,866 - La Crosse Catbirds
114,425 - Omaha Racers
113,532 - Yakima Sunkings
109,519 - Grand Rapids Hoops
103,454 - Quad City Thunder
89,672 - Tri-City Chinook
87,401 - Sioux Falls Skyforce
85,776 - Wichita Falls Texans
79,789 - Fargo-Moorhead Fever
55,707 - Capital Region Pontiacs
48,863 - Columbus Horizon
42,907 - Rochester Renegades

[SUNKINGS]

In the future could you please leve Pitt's #'s out of your little posts. Because you havnt gone to all their games so you have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry couldnt help it.

[psbf]

I don't like seeing our turnout figures either, Sunkings. But the last time I checked we were still part of the league. Avoiding them makes them no less true. I have been to all the Xplosion games. So I can tell you.

[heavesrock]

Thanks Heaves. Are ATL numbers believed to be accurate?

No. Only four games have been reported, all somewhere around 700. A member of this board reportedly had a friend at the opening game and said that there were only around 100 there. A member of the East Kentucky organization said that for a game there the crowd was only around 75, with some of those friends and family of one of the EK players from the area. My hope for them is to finish out the season and be replaced.

[Pounder]

Anyone catch the Iowa or Idaho NBDL games on the NBA channel this week? Yikes...for the 4th and 7th leading attendance draws in the league, places sure looked empty sports fans! NBDL fans in glass (empty) houses should not throw stones. Compared to the Butte web cast on right now vs. Albany, I like the CBA's chances more and more!

ChumpDumper's comments being correct and all...

...I was suprised that there were realistically 400 in the house Monday night and MAYBE 1,000 in the house Tuesday night (overlooking the morning schoolkid crowds, BTW). I expected half and half. I know the Stampede pad their numbers.

The whole scene generally sucks, and almost everyone knows that. The truth is that the NBA money is going to outlast the CBA, never mind the gates for the D-League.

[heavesrock]

A quick note: The 3,702 fans the Sun Kings had at the first East Kentucky game was the highest attendance by a CBA team this season.

[PikevilleOT]

It will be interesting to see how many people will turn out Wednesday for the Miners $1 promotion. In addition to my season seats, I bought 45 extra to sponsor a group attending their first game... If we average 1100 now, one would hope we break 3000 for the first time. It is great that a sponsor will step up with a promotion such as $1 seats to allow those that have otherwise skipped games to at least give the MIners an opportunity to entertain them. The same people that always complain there is nothing to do wont pay the usual $5 ticket price and I know that frustrates me when I hear it. I know there are other reasons keeping more families from attending (i.e. school functions, 2nd shifts, etc) but it is hard to build the program if more people wont take a chance on attending.