Would the CFL ever consider coming back down South again?

[uflorlandofan]

My question is this. If the Bills ever left Buffalo do you think the CFL would put a team in Buffalo? I know there is alot of speculation about the Bills leaving Buffalo and I think that would be one city that the CFL would have alot of luck in, think Labbatts Beer........

[Shootmaster_44]

I don't think the CFL has any designs on moving south in the near future. Possibly in 10 or 15 years when all the potential Canadian markets are filled. But the CFL almost folded as a result of American expansion last time, so I doubt it will consider it until it has no more Canadian markets to expand into.

[Minor League Man]

I don't think the CFL has any designs on moving south in the near future. Possibly in 10 or 15 years when all the potential Canadian markets are filled. But the CFL almost folded as a result of American expansion last time, so I doubt it will consider it until it has no more Canadian markets to expand into.
The closest I would see the CFL coming to the USA anytime soon would be if there was a team in the Pontiac Silverdome.

Still, then it would be considered Windsor, Ontario's team (not Detroit's)

[Strong Island Sound]

The only really successfulfranchise in the CFL US expansion was the Baltimore CFL Colts, aka Stallions.

They probably wouldn't make the move again. It is an interesting league and has a niche where it is.

The Buffalo Bills are looking into the possibility of playing a regular season game in Toronto next year. That would be a separate game from the NFL International Series.

[rider]

I think they would consider US border type cities such as Rochester New York or Detroit, Portland cities that are close to the border who are familiar to the CFL. example: rochester new york would be a excellent CFL city directly across the lake from Toronto. Rochester televsion broadcast cfl games.

They can't wait for Canadian cities to produce stadiums , how long has it been already years! They need the expansion revenue!

One poster said that the US expansion almost killed the CFL, actually it was the opposite the US expansion actually saved the league fiancially with the expansion fees. The league was desperate for cash.

[Pounder]

Every city getting a CFL team will be angling for an NFL team...

(This is where I would have said "including Detroit," but that was a better joke 2 years ago than it is now.)

...what good is that for stability?

[Shootmaster_44]

I think they would consider US border type cities such as Rochester New York or Detroit, Portland cities that are close to the border who are familiar to the CFL. example: rochester new york would be a excellent CFL city directly across the lake from Toronto. Rochester televsion broadcast cfl games.

They can't wait for Canadian cities to produce stadiums , how long has it been already years! They need the expansion revenue!

One poster said that the US expansion almost killed the CFL, actually it was the opposite the US expansion actually saved the league fiancially with the expansion fees. The league was desperate for cash.

It did nearly kill the CFL though. The league was bleeding money left and right, if the NFL had not stepped in in 1995 and loaned the CFL a pile of cash, my Roughriders would not be playing in the Grey Cup today. I remember the "Save the Riders" telethon that ran a few days before the NFL deal was worked out. The Riders didn't sell the number of tickets they needed to break even, but the NFL money balanced it out.

The reason the league was bleeding money was that yes there were expansion fees that were brought in, but the American clubs were losing so much money that the CFL had to consistently bail them out.

Either way, I think it would be a major mistake to expand into the US with viable Canadian cities without franchises. The CFL is on the best ground it has been since 1983 and doesn't need the influx of expansion fees.

The one thing I'm curious is who initiated American expansion? Was it the CFL or was it the Sacramento Surge's owner? The way I heard it was he wasn't happy the NFL suspended the WLAF and wanted to keep his team alive and went out looking for a league. He approached the CFL and they said yes and approved both Sacramento and the San Antonio franchise that never materialized. I think that same off-season was the embarrassing Orlando fiasco, where they had a press conference scheduled and the owner literally said backstage at the presser that he had changed his mind about the franchise.

[Berkshirian]

However, if the Bills DID move to Toronto, Buffalo would be a great CFL city! If there were to be American expansion, it should be focused on border area "triple A" type markets such as Rochester, NY, Grand Rapids, MI, or Portland, OR.

The league can't wait forever for Halifax or Quebec City to build stadia, or Ottawa to figure out where they are in this whole thing. The league must think about growth, and stable growth within the US would be in the types of cities I mentioned.

Thoughts?

[tops804]

...would like to see more of the CFL??? Leading up to franchises in the United
States again?

Sad to say, but past history indicates that there is not enough interest in the
United States to build on...The CFL is pretty much a non-factor.

July - November

MLB, NFL pre-season & regular season, College Football, NBA...All dominate
sports networks...I would love to see a CFL game once a week on ESPN
again. Interest leads to ratings, leading to advertisers paying more & more
for commercial time. Once a network sees no profit, they pull the plug on
the telecasts. If we won't watch it, I doubt that any major city would
or could support it.

[logoguru]

At the time, San Antonio and Baltimore wanted to continue but the CFL wouldnt let them so Baltimore moved to Montreal and San Antonio was forced to fold. Since then they have been addiment about it being Canadas game as a marketing gimmick, but I think it is in their best interest to stay. I would also like to see how the UFL and AAFL do before the CFL makes a move south.

[Berkshirian]

I mearly said IF they wanted to move into the US, they should use the types of markets I put out there as examples.

The expansion to the US was actually a mixed bag. It wasn't all bad. I think one major problem was the rapid rate of expansion, and then the markets they chose were distant, and not to cities with pro pedigrees.

A city like Buffalo (if the Bills go), or Rochester, HAVE track records as great minor league sports towns, so seeing a CFL team would elevate their perceived status (ok maybe not Buffalo) as minor league to big league, and the team would be embraced. Stay close to the border, where the CFL is somewhat known. Grand Rapids! Rochester! Even a Milwaukee or a Spokane!

Not only would these metro areas be comparable in size to half the existing CFL teams, they have good sports support track records, UNLIKE the Shreveports and Las Vegases of the world.

Look, the CFL knows 8 is not enough. THEY are talking about expansion. You need about 12 to start thinking "we're all set and don't need to expand." Expand SLOWLY, one or even two, but then a good 3 or 4 years to the next. TRY to get things sorted out for Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax, or even Moncton, but don't automatically preclude the IDEA of going back to the US, using the failed past experiences to learn from. Slow, selective growth will beat out an overnight blitz of new teams any day.

And a marketing campaign can EASILY be changed, don't worry about the Radically Canadian thing..............

[rams80]

Would passports and the increased border restrictions be a problem?

[Pounder]

Probably no more of a problem than it is for various hockey leagues.

Hockey has the added inconvenience of national "governing bodies" kind of at odds with each other.

[Aaronhere]

Of all of the cities the CFL was in down here, only Baltimore drew the fans in. Las Vegas was a joke. I could see the UFL and the CFL getting together, maybe down the road. I love the CFL, and wish they were in the US. I also miss the games on ESPN. I think any expansion plans for the CFL have to include Ottawa and/or the Maritime provinces before they go south again.

[Paul S]

THe other thing was when the US expansion took place, other than Sacramento everyone was on a payment plan.

Expansion was 3 million. Sacramento Surge paid up front and changed their name to the Gold Miners from the WLAF. All the other teams were paying 300K a year for 10 years. The CFL braintrust figured this would be a great way to defer the money and keep a steady profit coming in.,,,, until the teams went belly up.

THe only except was Nick or Larry Milleti (can't remember first name). He came in and bought the Las Vegas Posse. He had owned a NBA team and had tried to start a Canadian Basketball League. So he had some credibility. He went to teh CFL and said "lend me 3 million dollars and I'll buy a team". Incredibly the CFL went for this. Vegas folded.

THe NFL loan was only 5 million which was chump-change to them. It definately saved the CFL though.

Some guy in NY tried to put a team in Yankee stadium in the 70's. Even got the blessing of the Yankees to do it. The CFL turned him down on a tight vote.

More recently the CFL has been approached a'la Las Vegas Posse style and someone said "lend me money to build a stadium in Anchorage and I'll put a team there" THe CFL said NO (thats NON in Montreal.)

They had interest in the Detroit-Windsor situation but so far it hasn't panned out. THere also was talk of a Victoria BC team in the early 90's. Victoria had the COmmonwealth games and they were going to build a brand new purpose built stadium for it and get a CFL team. Problem was the Commonwealth games money comes from UK TV rights, Canadian TV rights and Australian TV rights. Victoria is 8 hours behind London, live tv would be on at late night, so the BBC bid low, the stadium idea was killed and they temporarily upgraded UVIC stadium to 20 odd thousand. Now UVIC won't let anyone onto THEIR publically built and financed stadium.

Portland Oregon had a CFL game in the early 90's too to test the market, it did ok. But it was billed as Doug Flutie vs Rocket Ismael and got about 19k.

I'm fairly confident that when the NFL lent the CFL the money to survive they put some things into place that basically said, you stay out of our backyard and we;ll stay out of yours. They were gonna have a yearly (4 downs) game with the Grey Cup champion vs the winner of NFLeuropes world bowl. Problem was for whatever reason they couldn't find a seperate insurance package for it, the current insurance wouldn't allow it and they couldn't find a one off package for resonable money.

[tops804]

The CFL or TSN, had a very weak broadcasting agreement with AmericaOne
network over the past few years. (At least six that I can count). A1 is a
network that provides programming to mostly, low-powered, television
stations.

It is the Canadian cable broadcast of the game, but if your local station has
other programming, it is possible to see the broadcast stop being shown mid-
game. Kind of a let down which I learned this past fall. Most LP stations
get their feeds from several different sources. Those sources, usually don't care
or regulate how their programming is shown.

The last real cable deal in the U.S., I believe was with SportChannel in the early
to mid-90's. It didn't last long.

[logoguru]

The last real cable deal in the U.S., I believe was with SportChannel in the earlyto mid-90's. It didn't last long.

Primeticket in "LA"...Fox bought them and a bunch of others to form FoxSportsNet.

[Shootmaster_44]

The CFL or TSN, had a very weak broadcasting agreement with AmericaOne
network over the past few years. (At least six that I can count). A1 is a
network that provides programming to mostly, low-powered, television
stations.

It is the Canadian cable broadcast of the game, but if your local station has
other programming, it is possible to see the broadcast stop being shown mid-
game. Kind of a let down which I learned this past fall. Most LP stations
get their feeds from several different sources. Those sources, usually don't care
or regulate how their programming is shown.

The last real cable deal in the U.S., I believe was with SportChannel in the early
to mid-90's. It didn't last long.

Yes America One was a broadcaster of the CFL. However, that's not the only channel the CFL was shown on in the US. According to this list (http://www.cfl.ca/index.php?module=page&id=314) the CFL is also shown on most Comcast Sports Network stations.

However, with the lack of a push to get on tv in the US, leads me to believe the CFL has no major interest in pushing the product there. It seems the tv deal with TSN in Canada is worth enough money to the league, that they are content to be on smaller networks.

Attendance is up in the CFL, merchandising revenues are up, tv revenues are up, is it really necessary for the league to focus on the US? I don't think so. Its time the CFL realizes that you build the game up at home before you export it elsewhere. Mark Cohon is a smart man and seems to have realized that hasty expansion is not the way to go.

Perhaps one day the CFL will be on ESPN or ESPN2 again, but I'm not sure it matters too much to the league. The deals didn't bring in a pile of cash anyhow. So why bust your neck trying to reach them?

As for expansion into the US, I doubt that would happen any time soon. If it were to occur, the US Immigration Department would have to allow the import ratio. I think in hindsight the CFL realized without the requisite Canadian players on the US teams, the game was not truly Canadian anymore and risked being homogenized into the four down game. The other thing I think any expansion into the US would require is a stadium that could properly hold a Canadian sized field. I don't think the CFL wants to play on a field that isn't the regulation size, as they did with US expansion. Essentially, any US ownership group would be required to meet CFL rules to have a team. The league isn't going to bend over backward for them again.

I think the only plausible site for CFL expansion is Buffalo if the Bills moved. However, that is only possible if Ralph Wilson Stadium can accommodate a proper CFL field. If the Bills stay put, then the only CFL expansion you will see is within Canada. For some reason Ottawa is the front runner (though I question why?) and Quebec City is number two. With the renos the Universite du Laval is doing to PEPS, coupled with the condemned stadium in Ottawa, Quebec City may have a team sooner than planned. Apparently PEPS will be up to 25,000 capacity with proper facilities in time for the fall. So I'd expect to see a team in Quebec City in the next 3 or 4 years.

[Pounder]

...and I highly doubt Ralph Wilson can accomodate the Canadian dimensions.

None of the MLS parks can. They're selling point is intimacy. No 20-yard endzones.

Didn't the CFL occupy at least three American stadia with running tracks? That's the only way it worked down here, except none of them really worked... Baltimore sold tickets, little else did.

[Shootmaster_44]

...and I highly doubt Ralph Wilson can accomodate the Canadian dimensions.

None of the MLS parks can. They're selling point is intimacy. No 20-yard endzones.

Didn't the CFL occupy at least three American stadia with running tracks? That's the only way it worked down here, except none of them really worked... Baltimore sold tickets, little else did.

I don't believe any of the US stadiums in the CFL had a proper field. The closest seems to me was the Alamodome in San Antonio which had a 110 yard field with 15 yard end zones. The rest had tiny end zones to accommodate for the 110 yard field. In fact, one of the teams did not even have a 110 yard field, they simply had a "55" painted at the US 45 yard line on one side.

But in the CIS (Canadian NCAA) some schools do have a running track that makes up part of the end zone. In fact, at the University of Manitoba, University Stadium's end zones are entirely track. http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=university+stadium,+winnipeg&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=32.417211,96.328125&ie=UTF8&ll=49.806363,-97.146285&spn=0.003947,0.011759&t=h&z=17&om=0
That's the Google Earth image of it. So in theory if any of the MLS stadiums or any other stadiums have enough track, the field could fit. However, to hear the CIS players talk about University Stadium, scoring TDs are not a pleasant experience.

[firewolff]

If there were to be American expansion, it should be focused on border area "triple A" type markets such as Rochester, NY, Grand Rapids, MI, or Portland, OR.

The league can't wait forever for Halifax or Quebec City to build stadia, or Ottawa to figure out where they are in this whole thing. The league must think about growth, and stable growth within the US would be in the types of cities I mentioned.

Thoughts?

I would love to see the CFL in Portland. There was an exhibition game in the '90's. I was there and there was a big crowd. Paul Allen (of the Trailblazers) decided against it, though. I'm not sure, however, if PGE Park can fit the CFL field.

I personally am a big fan and have been up to Vancouver a number of times to see the Lions and even a Grey Cup.

[panchess]

..particularly with NFL Europa gone. There was talk that the NFL Network was going to start broadcasting CFL games next season, both to get some live content on NFL Network and promote CFL players that might end up in the NFL.

Ralph Wilson Stadium can't handle a CFL field without alteration. I don't know if Paetek Park in Rochester (where the Raging Rhinos soccer team plays) can, but I think Rochester would be an interesting market for the CFL. They don't have a D1 football team, and have a million people in the metro. Grand Rapids fits the bill.

I do think any CFL expansion into the US should be in places that have stadia suitable for a CFL field.