Whats the real story with Cedar Rapids ?

[not so fast]

Is there more to the story on Cedar Rapids than this press release? Didn't Joerger leave the Dakota Wizards in a big financial hole and could this be what has happened in Cedar Rapids?

[hoosierboy]

What is your personal agenda with Joerger? Same with Ticknor. You've done nothing but cut on these two since you started posting on this board. You don't know the first thing about them, yet you feel the need to pass judgement and make accusations about them as people. Yet if someone questions your almighty Daleo, you fly off the handle.

Maybe you should get a f*cking clue before you throw out your "theories" of why coaches aren't brought back or why coaches leave or why ownership decides to sell.

Dave Joerger is a first-rate coach and more importantly a first-rate person. To say that he put Dakota in a hole is the most insane thing I've ever heard. Were you here when he was putting in 18-hour days as an assistant coach and GM, trying to not only mold his coaching skills, but also keep an organization that was in dire financial situations afloat? If not for him, there wouldn't even be a team up here today.

So what did he do as a head coach to get us in financial trouble? Win three championships in four years? Increase attendance by 50%?

You have no idea the circumstances under which Dave left. Not one. Do you wonder why our GM left? Do you wonder why the Dakota Wizards have just been sold? Did it ever occur to you that maybe our former owner was terrible with money? Did it ever occur to you that Dave has a wife and daughter and maybe Sioux Falls made him an offer he couldn't refuse? And yet after all that (and more), he still struggled with the decision and leave.

Then Cedar Rapids -- how could he possibly dig them a hole there? By taking an expansion team to the playoffs? By having CR lead the league in attendance? Here's a thought: maybe ownership wasn't impressed with the USBL as a league, thus the inquiries into joining the CBA, and now wanting out.

If you disagree with Dave as a coach, fine. Question away why he does this or does that. Same with Ticknor. But you have crossed the line making accusations against these mens' character.

[not so fast]

hoosierboy I think you need to take your valium, you are a little over the edge. Asking a question is not attacking ones character, you guys are just to sensitive.

Joerger is not above a question or niether is ticknor so please calm down.

It does seem odd that joerger was at two places that had financial problems.

You know hoosierboy don't become hoosiergirl and cry for these guys, there big boys and in public positions that come under scrutiny. You know its your kind of thinking that leads to Enron scandals.

My main criticism of ticknor has been his firing of renaldo and backstabbing of stephens and again I ask you to go back and check my previous posts instead of becoming a defense attorney, and throughout the season I apllauded the steelheads and I have always acknowledge joerger as a good coach, but that does not mean I can't ask a legitamate question.

You guys need to lighten up, it has always been where you can't even ask a question about these guys, and I will continue to ask, and if you have answers then do it and don't get so insane about it. And I really don't care if he has 3 wives and 10 kids, but if he has all this experience then I was wondering how two places with him in charge, with a good fan base, had money problems, and I think that is more than a fair question. And since you are going to be johnny cocharan, then feel free to answer. but when you get this upset, you make it seem like there is something more to the story.

[JCJimmie84]

I didn't read the press release, nor do I know much of what went on in Cedar Rapids. But I do know a little something about the wizards and what Dave might have been thinking when he left Bismarck.
Dave had been in Bismarck for 4 years at head coach and 3 years before that as the GM. 7 years at one place is a long time for minor league sports.
Now can you blame the guy for wanting bigger and better things, he is like Larry Brown looking for the best fit for himself.
So I do not blame him for moving on. He is a great guy and a hell of a good coach. I am happy for him.
I am sure he figured it was time to move on.

Now the Financial trouble that the Wizards got in has nothing to do with Dave, he had no control of that. The owner and management didn't do a real good job at all. Plus Minor league sports is not a real big money maker, As I am sure you know all of them go threw rough times.

As far as Cedar Rapids wanting to sell and the Wizards selling this is business. You can sell a successful team for more than a unsuccessful team. No one wants to buy a unsuccessful team.


The Financial trouble didn't really happen until the owners switch a couple times and there was a new GM. The switch up of owners was not because of Dave it was because the old owner is old and not all there at times.

The wizards owner last year made changes some for the good and a lot for the bad. Plus I am sure he used the team as a tax right off for his other businesses. The owner and the GM never took any of Dave's suggestions into consideration about ticket prices and other promotions. Is it Dave's fault that the owner didn't do a good job with the money.

So how could the financial trouble be the head coach's fault???

[hoosierboy]

hoosiergirl, Enron, johnny cocharan. That is pretty clever stuff. Keep up the good work.

And for someone who says we are sensitive, that is the pot calling the kettle black. Look in the mirror and think about how you react whenever someone questions Daleo. And the worst that's ever said about him is strictly basketball-related.

But since you are "just asking questions", I will answer them.

To answer you questions about the Wizards, on paper, they made money. But when your owner takes the latest deposits from sponsorships and the attendance gates and funnels them into his other business ventures, it leaves your organization with zero, zilch, nothing in the bank.

So when it comes time to payroll, and your check bounces or is days late, do you feel secure in your job situation? Would you? You say it has nothing to do with family, when in reality it has everything to do with providing for your family pal.

Sioux Falls made an offer Dave couldn't refuse, and he still struggled with his decision. He built this team into what it is today, and you have no clue how difficult it was for him to leave. But the time was right, and all our fans understand.

I also mentioned that our GM also left. When you have to put $4800 on your credit card for team airfare -- because your owner cannot get approved for his own credit card -- then you too would say enough is enough and leave. And I roomed with Alex for three years, so I think it's fair to say I know a little more about the situation than you think.

Hopefully now you understand that the team actually made money the past four years, and Dave didn't leave them in financial trouble like you are insinuating. To think he has anything to do with the financials is just absurd. Hopefully you also understand that not only did Joerger feel this way, but our GM also left for the same reasons.

You also don't even consider the fact that maybe Dave just wanted a different challenge. What else could he do here? He won three championships. There was nothing else to prove. Maybe if he goes somewhere else and does the same thing, more NBA people will notice.

Cedar Rapids. They can sugar coat it all they want, but the bottom line is the ownership had enough of the USBL office. The ForfeitGate game, where Floyd Irons took his team off the floor, cost CR a lot of money with ticket refunds and/or free admission to the next game. Yet the league office did little to nothing to punish Irons, and were chickensh*t when St. Louis threatened legal action. There were issues with the office before that game, and this was the last straw for the CR owners, which is why they inquired about the CBA and just decided in the end to bring on more owners. It was more trouble than it was worth for the Smiths.

Here is another fact you may not have known: Cedar Rapids also made money this year. And Joerger is still planning on returning there next season.

And Ticknor has the right to hire and fire whomever he wants. If Renaldo was as good as you say he was (which I've heard he isn't), then Ticknor would have kept him. A good assistant is hard to find, and Duane knows better than to get rid of someone who is valuable to the organization. There are two sides to every story, yet you form your opinion based on just one.

I hope next time you ask one of your questions, you show some facts about what you are talking about instead of opinions and hearsay. Or better yet, nix the questions and just be a fan and talk basketball. Stay out of the business of others that has nothing to do with you just for the sake of stirring the pot.

[not so fast]

Now hoosierboy, you are writing books and lecturing me, niether do I need from you or any of your friends, the fact is your you talk about two sides, renaldo was never given a chance to say anything, you just kiss up to ticknor and jorger, and as a fan, who has paid money to see gary and dakota play, I think I can say what I want, and ask what I want. You must be friends with john kerry or that fat oaf michael moore, and all you want to do is silence any opinion or question you don't like.

I dont appreciate you telling me what I can or cannot ask, but since you insist on thinking you can dictate what I can say, try this: I could have asked you questions like why didn't joerger cut his staff if he had budget problems or better yet cut player payroll like great lakes did? I could have asked you why your gm recieved a dui and what your ownership thought of that ? but I didn't, so before you go here and say that renaldo isn't a good basketball man, you seem like the hypocrite you are, just to defend your guys, you impugn renaldo in the process. Tell me, do you know renaldo? No, but he who has 1000 times more invested in the city of gary than ticknor ever will, according to you, has no value to steelheads organization.

Arrogance of you and your crew continue to amaze me. I think its called selective censorship. Finally, if what you say is true about the dakota owner, (in which you seem to have no trouble slandering), then why didn't the dakota paper run a story about how the owner was not paying his bills or bouncing checks?

I asked one simple question and you choose to read more into it but I tell you this, if it is a war on words you want (God forgive me for using a kerry quote) Bring it on!!!

[Jeremy]

When I first checked out our website yesterday to see the River Raiders being up for sale, the first thing I thought of too from reading it was that our owner was frustrated by the USBL and it's bush league antics this year..thus the look into the CBA, which only disappointed the ownership more because none of the businesses in Cedar Rapids were really getting behind the team with sponsorship deals (all sports need sponsors to help absorb costs)...all these things together probably are leading to the attempted sale.

The story on the site about it taking so much time to run a team...blah blah blah...I don't buy that, if you are buying a team you have to know the time/effort it will take to run it, so that line does not fool me.

Now, after a great year I am afraid no buyers will complete the sale and we will have out team fold and fade into obscurity. The thing is if I recall the beginning of last season with the announcement of the team, they spoke to the old CBA owner about the failed team, if I remember correctly it was coperate sponsorship that caused that team to fail...isn't it ironic how history repeats itself.

I will miss the River Raiders if they indeed don't return, but I will in no way miss the USBL.

[hoosierboy]

Yeah, it's kinda sucks when you are presented with the facts isn't it NSF?

Once again, it had nothing to do with the budget. Being an accountant, I would think that you'd understand this. Income was greater than expenses. That means a profit. Once that profit is deposited, it is out of everyone's hands. But then again, this is a fact and you seem to ignore those.

And what is Joerger supposed to do, cut his staff? Ha! They have a grand total of two people in the office. Two!! One GM, and on marketing director. Everyone else is on a volunteer-basis. Once again, another fact. I'll try to stop bringing these up to you.

Go ahead and stick up for Renaldo. See the thing is I don't give a flying fig what goes on in Gary. He might be grand, he might not be. I don't know. I don't care. But whatever Ticknor does with his team is his business. Players, coaches, whatever. Obviously it's such a travesty that the Steelhead's owner stepped right in and the town went into anarchy over his decision not to bring him back. Geez I wonder if Ken will renew his season tickets.

While you sit there and ponder all your "questions", all I care about is having a competitive team that plays hard and watching a good game with some good friends and a beer in my hand. Then talking hoops - what goes on on the court (ie, the actual game) - with the fans after the game.

It's people like you that have made this board into crap. You are a spiteful, mean person who has some sort of bullsh*t personal agenda - and have been that day since day one. You used to bring some entertainment to this board, but now it's just sickening. Hey do you know that Ticknor took a leak one time and didn't flush the toilet? Oh the humanity! Like a lot of others on this board feel -- whether you are some pawn of Daleo, or Daleo himself -- you are not worth my time. So honestly, don't even bother replying because I will not read it. I'm done with this board. This is just not worth it.

Just because there's a long-time successful coach who's won everywhere he's gone, and a coach who has done more with his life by age 30 than you ever will with your sorry ass doesn't mean you have the right to try and dig up some bullsh*t conspiracies... errr, I'm sorry ask your questions. Keep on keepin' on with your crusade not so fast, Daleo, whoever the f*ck you are. Maybe someone will actually give a sh*t.

[not so fast]

hoosierboy, it must be really something wrong with you, to get this bent out of shape about one question, and that was there seemed to be a question as to why joerger had been involved with two teams and there was two teams that had financial problems. All you had to do was answer the question, but instead you go crazy with rants and now you have really gone over the edge.

Its too bad you are this unstable young man. get some help, and don't take this board this seriously. If Ticknors and jorgers career is going to be made or not made on this message board, then they beter get another line of work. For you to get this hysterical makes me really wonder about you, and I will hope and pray you get some help.

Joerger is well repected in minorleague basketball and so is ticknor, and nothing I say on this board will change that.

I will say this, if and when joerger makes it to the NbA as a coach, what are you going to do when major newspapers and major tv networks or fox sports or whoever in the major media criticize him? And every coach gets criticized, including even Phil Jackson, and some of it is not nice, or fair.

Grow up and get yourself professional help, and all of your little friends as well.

are you and joerger and ticknor this insecure? Man joerger has won Cba coach of the year, championships, and I would think he has the confidence to move on in spite of a few questions. And as I said earlier, if he doesn't then he needs to quit persuing nBA coaching, because Jay Mariotti, Chicago sun times sports writer, is not going to care about hoosierboy rants, he will write what he wants about any head coach, just ask Bill cartwright, who was unjustly inpugned for the bulls failures and it cost him his job.

You hooseirboy need to relax, don't take all this that seriously, and come to gary for the dakota game, I will buy you a pepsi!

[THE SKEET]

Yep, you hit the nail on the head Not So Fast......... Thats what Joeger is trying to do- it's all part of his master plan, go around the country and see how many minor league basketball teams he can run into the ground financially. See, but he's doing it really sneaky like- first what he does is comes to your city, works his way up through the ranks of the organization, becomes head coach, wins an IBA title, then a couple of CBA titles, brings in talent that make people want to come out to the game and lead the leauge in attendance and generally make the city feel good about having a professional team.

See now, here's where the magic trick come in- his modus operendi, his milieu that he works in if you will. Without having any access to team finances he's magically put the organization into a financial tailspin. How does he do it!?! It's magic and the real magicians never tell their secrets.

My advice Sioux Falls? Get rid of Joeger ASAP!! He's going to completely ruin your day by winning you a CBA championship and boosting your attendance. It's gonna be horrible, your gonna have to buy new nets after you cut them down following the championship game, you may have to bring in extra staff to work the ticket windows too........ what a travesty!

If you wanna attack Joeger on coaching abilities, fine, it's pro sports- they're paid to take that critisism. Don't throw out a dumb question like that though- "did Joeger run them financially into the ground?" Of course he didn't!!! I know, this is Jim Gray I'm replying to isn't it?!?! Better ask if he bet on basketball as well!!!

One more bit of advice- actually know what slander means before accusing someone of it. When someone has proof of what they're saying, it's not slander. Calling someone a backstabber or saying someone financially ruined two teams without one bit of evidence -- hmmm, sounds like slander to me.

[not so fast]

You dakota groupies just won't quit will you? All i know is players checks were bouncing in dakota and the players were locked out of their hotel rooms for non payment, and this is fact, and shortly after this joeger leaves, then he goes to cedar rapids and after the season the ownership puts the team up for sale. Now from the outside, anyone who was not privy to all the information that you joerger groupies have, are left to wonder is there a connection with how he handle things or was he totally innocent of any of the financial woes of these two organizations?

And all you groupies had to do was explain it and this would have been over a long time ago. But, you guys are like:HOW DARE YOU QUESTION JOERGER, HE IS GOD, HE DOES NO WRONG, HE SHOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED BY ANYONE, HE HAS NEVER MADE A MISTAKE IN HIS LIFE, IN FACT HE HAS THE CURE FOR CANCER, DIABETES, HE WILL SOLVE THE IRAQ WAR, IN FACT HE KNOWS WHERE BIN LADEN IS AS AS SOON AS HE WINS THE NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP, HE WILL LEAVE FOR PAKISTAN AND FIND HIM AND BRING HIM TO JUSTICE.

Please forgive me for questioning this man. I know he walks on water, i understand that Larry Brown was asked to step down so joerger could take over.

Kerry should have asked for joerger as his vice president candidate.

Kerry/joerger Hmmm. sounds okay to me, well it certainly would have guaranteed the dakota states!!!

(sorry, i don't drink coke, pepsi for me)

[THE SKEET]

Ownership- you don't think Joeger saw that!?!? Wouldn't you get out too????

Why do you have to blame the whole thing on Joeger??? He was smart enough to get out??

[not so fast]

okay, you guys have convinced me that the ownership is whom to blame, although i never actually blamed joerger I only asked what was happening. now why did Dickens dislike joerger so much, and is it true that malik dixon will be playing in sioux falls for jorger?

[Wizard57]

I think that I can answer this one. I believe that Dickens did not like Joerger because Dave expected him to play defense too. Dickens is by far and away the most athletic basketball player I have ever seen in the CBA. The fact remains though, that he could not guard a water cooler! He could also learn to play with some emotion!

[SK Fan]

Is there more to the story on Cedar Rapids than this press release? Didn't Joerger leave the Dakota Wizards in a big financial hole and could this be what has happened in Cedar Rapids?


not so fast........... minor league sports teams all over the country are bought and sold all the time. Usually the guys that buy them in the first place think they are going to hit the jackpot. Most have no financial plan or idea of how much money they might make. Cedar Rapids ownership bought into the USBL and quickly found out how unstable the leadership of the USBL is. Their first year they led the league in attendance. They averaged over 2200 people a game. Unfortunately, St Louis came to town one night and crapped on everything good the ownership of the River Raiders had done. The River Raiders ownership had to give free tickets to another game to everyone. (including me) I watched from ten feet away Floyd "Ironhead" Irons call Joerger to midcourt and tell him he was taking his team off of the court. When Irons shoved the owner of the River Raiders he knew he had to make a quick exit. The local paper lost confidence in the league. The USBL announced a settlement had been reached, but according to the owners of the River Raiders no settlement has EVER been reached. As far as I know, NO money has ever changed hands between ST. Louis, the league or the River Raiders. Attendance stayed pretty good, but I don't think the local industry saw the River Raiders as a wise investment. The owners (husband and wife) run a nice local motel that does well. They also run a home-building business (which does well), and also own many properties in the area.

I don't know what happened with Dakota, but I do know Joerger had nothing to do with the River Raider management selling the team. I suspect you are a Joerger hater. Dave came into Cedar Rapids and built a fun to watch, successful team.

I hope the team stays put and we get to see another season of basketball here in Cedar Rapids. I am a River raider fan but in no way a Utterly Stupid Basketball League (USBL) fan. $300,000 buys you a franchise, but don't expect to get any basketballs with that. The league office ain't got no balls, thats for sure!

[not so fast]

Why must you guys always call me a joerger hater? I took the time to go back and check my posts from last season, and I gave joerger a lot of compliments. Man, i must really hate him, I mean i praised him on several separate posts! Wow, this is really horrible, I must be as bad as the swift boat vets!!

Please guys, just answer the questions without reading more into it. you guys have to be democrats, which is sad in itself. A guy wants to be president. spends 20 years in the senate, and no one can ask him a question about his votes. Likewise, a guy can coach in minorleagues for several years, win awards, but don't ask any questions unless you will labeled a joerger hater. Grow up fellows, he is not above questions.

So if I use this rationale, does that make all of you renaldo haters?

[SK Fan]

Why must you guys always call me a joerger hater? I took the time to go back and check my posts from last season, and I gave joerger a lot of compliments. Man, i must really hate him, I mean i praised him on several separate posts! Wow, this is really horrible, I must be as bad as the swift boat vets!!

Please guys, just answer the questions without reading more into it. you guys have to be democrats, which is sad in itself. A guy wants to be president. spends 20 years in the senate, and no one can ask him a question about his votes. Likewise, a guy can coach in minorleagues for several years, win awards, but don't ask any questions unless you will labeled a joerger hater. Grow up fellows, he is not above questions.

So if I use this rationale, does that make all of you renaldo haters?

not so fast.......If you read my post I answered your question as it concerns the River Raiders. Here is your original question.

"Is there more to the story on Cedar Rapids than this press release? Didn't Joerger leave the Dakota Wizards in a big financial hole and could this be what has happened in Cedar Rapids?"

YES, but there's always more to the story than what is in a press release, but obviously the owners of the River Raiders determined you didn't need to know the whole story. NO....that is not what happened in Cedar Rapids. Joerger did a great job here. He had nothing to do with the owners deciding to sell. The team is not in a financial hole. The River Raiders led the league in attendance. Ok.....Do you agree that I answered your question? I also answered it in my last post, but you got all upset when your questions were answered. The way I read the other posts on here it sounds like Joerger had nothing to do with the financial hole the Wizards are in. I doubt Joerger ever had much to say on financial decisions in Dakota. It sounds like he got a very good offer to move and he was smart enough to know the problems with Dakota. He was with them a long time. Maybe he wanted a new challenge.

Oh, and we ain't talking about the f-cking President of the United States, we're talking about a CBA and USBL basketball coach. You can question Joerger all you want, but he has won in Dakota and he took a first year team and built a respectable team out of nothing. Give him some credit. If you know more than he does then get your resume' sent out to some teams!

And you assume I am a Democrat. I do not classify myself as either. I vote for the best man/woman for the job. Maybe if we all did that instead of looking at the party first and then the candidate we might have a better country.

[not so fast]

I think if he was a first year minorleague coach, and took players that had little or no experience, then you could classify this as taking a team from nothing and winning. But he is the most connected coach with agents and minorleague players, so he just didn't walk of the streets and take this team. And as far as my resume, I am a fan and I have a right to ask a question, I apprieciate your answer but it would be nice if one of you could answer the question without all this emotion. Either you are joerger himself, or he has a support group of guys that are really more like a cult!

I am a proud Conservative Republican and I think most democrats are losers!!

I really have had enough of this joerger talk, I wish him the best and I will see the sioux falls/Gary game.

[SK Fan]

I think if he was a first year minorleague coach, and took players that had little or no experience, then you could classify this as taking a team from nothing and winning. But he is the most connected coach with agents and minorleague players, so he just didn't walk of the streets and take this team. And as far as my resume, I am a fan and I have a right to ask a question, I apprieciate your answer but it would be nice if one of you could answer the question without all this emotion. Either you are joerger himself, or he has a support group of guys that are really more like a cult!

I am a proud Conservative Republican and I think most democrats are losers!!

I really have had enough of this joerger talk, I wish him the best and I will see the sioux falls/Gary game.

You are the one reading emotion in my post. I am not Joerger and I never heard of him before he came to Cedar Rapids. He did a good job here. If he is the most connected coach, as you said, he must be doing something right. I, also, am a fan and have the right to post my opinion. You , also have the right to post your opinion. But when you ask a question and it is answered the way you don't want to hear then don't go attacking everyone who answered your question. You suggested by the way you asked your question that Joerger was to blame for the Dakota and Cedar Rapids problems. He was not. A coach should shoulder a lot of responsibility with his team, but the owner is the one who makes the final decisions and should know his own financial situation. If an owner makes poor financial decisions is it the coaches fault? No.

The owners in Cedar Rapids did everything the best they could. Did they play in a high school gym? (as some USBL teams have) No, they played in an arena that provided plenty of quality seats and comfort. When St. Louis walked off of the court, did they say too bad for the fans that came? No, they gave free tickets to any other game to all that attended. They provided quality halftime entertainment. And most of all, they provided a team that was exciting to watch in a fan-friendly environment. Unfortunately, the local businesses that should have supported them took a wait and see attitude before they spent their advertising dollar. And, it didn't take long to find out what kind of a league the USBL is. When the St. Louis walkoff occurred and the USBL office indicated to everyone that they would take tough action against St. Louis, we thought they meant business. Dennis Truax told me in an e mail that Irons would never coach again in the USBL as long as the present USBL owners where around. The very next weekend Irons was coaching in the USBL. As I stated before, the USBL office has no balls and will not stand up to anyone. It is a poorly run league with no leadership from the USBL office.

[THE SKEET]

not so fast- what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this chat room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[not so fast]

hey skeet, have we really voted to accept the dakotas as official states in the USA? If so, I demand a recount.

[THE SKEET]

Well, that was about 115 years ago that "the dakotas" as you put it were brought into the union. I suppose we could call everyone back that voted on it, but they're probably dead or really old at this point..........
Couple quick facts on the state of ND for you:

State Bird: Western Meadowlark
State Flower: Wild Prairie Rose
State Fish: Northern Pike
State Dance: Square Dance
State Drink: Milk (Miller High Life from my perspective)
State Pastime: WINNING CBA TITLES!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeremy]

Sad thing for us is...the website is now history as well for the team, it does not look good.