Another uif team folding

[blanketman]

Omaha beef is gone.Wow, this league is going down for the count.Dakota will be fired soon .The league cant affored his salary.

[The Abyss]

News arcticle or link please? Until you show some proof shut the hell up!!

[IndoorExpert]

No official releases have been written and no final determinations have been made (at least publicly). Teams in question that have announced there will be changes in the future are: Omaha, River City, Evansville, Ohio Valley, Lexington, and Rock River. Bloomington had a press release that they were staying put, and Wichita Wild has been added for 2008. Dont expect announcements to come until the last moment. The UIF is good at keeping things out of the media.

[rams80]

Fort Wayne will likely be in the UIF next season as well.

Blanketman, go troll the CIFL board.

[cRUSHer]

Blanketman, go troll the CIFL board.

Hear here , couldn't have said it better myself.

[blanketman]

Ill tell you what, if i am wrong with this , i wont come back to this board . My odds tell me , ill be back.

[Freedom]

I'll tell you what, you should go for all the times you have already been wrong.

Quit pretending you know something.

[Rocky]

The Beef are folding, and Crow is going to be fired. So which statement are you willing to bet your involvement on this board over? Or are you saying both are true, and you're willing to stake your reputation on it? (Incuding not being lame and simply making a new login-id)

[preeths]

Omaha beef is gone.Wow, this league is going down for the count.Dakota will be fired soon .The league cant affored his salary.

We get it, you hate Crow and the UIF. Stop posting the same thing in multiple threads. You sound like someone with an agenda who is just hoping his predictions come true. Give details or this all sounds like propaganda.

[Trnr]

Give Details......Propaganda......................that is all this messageboard is about.

[cRUSHer]

We get it, you hate Crow and the UIF.
Stop posting the same thing in multiple threads.

You sound like someone with an agenda who is just hoping his predictions come true. Give details or this all sounds like propaganda.

Nice work preeths....the guy sounds like `bacon'.

[preeths]

Give Details......Propaganda......................that is all this messageboard is about.

No, it is what some posters are all about. They're usually called on it pretty quickly.

[Billings Bill]

Hello!
Here is an update from my world. The UIF will be fine! It will operate with either eight or nine teams in 2008.

1) Billings- In.
2) Ft. Collins- In.
3) Sioux Falls- In.
4) Sioux City- In.
5) River City- In.
6) Wichita- In.
7) Bloomington-In.
8) Ft. Wayne- 90% In.
9) Omaha- 80% In- Expecting a possible ownership change.

Yes, Travel could be "a little stretched" but it will be fine. Give Mr. Crow some room to operate.
Thank You,
Billings Bill:)

[exit322]

Allright, let's give the hypothetical that DC is overpaid and will be fired, and they bring in someone else that doesn't screw things up.

If Dakota Crow for only having good teams every year should be fired, then someone needs to go in and shut down the AIFA and CIFL for all their teams that can't pay their bills (Springfield, Steubenville, Summit County, NY/NJ, Montgomery, Florence, Tallahassee, etc etc etc etc). I mean really, if getting rid of teams that haven't performed to the higher level the UIF apparently requires means that DC needs fired, then what does that say for the CIFL or AIFA?

[IndoorExpert]

Allright, let's give the hypothetical that DC is overpaid and will be fired, and they bring in someone else that doesn't screw things up.

If Dakota Crow for only having good teams every year should be fired, then someone needs to go in and shut down the AIFA and CIFL for all their teams that can't pay their bills (Springfield, Steubenville, Summit County, NY/NJ, Montgomery, Florence, Tallahassee, etc etc etc etc).

Dakota Crow will not be fired for only having good teams every year. He will be fired because of huge salary (owners pay for) and not doing anything for the league that justifies his need. Lets remember when the UIF began, all of these teams were champions and/or teams that had been operating for three plus years. I hate to see you posters giving him credit for this. Ask some of the owners how confrontational he is, and how he talks down to people because he has a position of power. Believe me the job got to his head. He did not fulfill the purpose of having such a position for a league that was supposed to be "premier". The UIF teams and owners made the league what it was. Not the Executive Director. Any person with an understanding of business could have been hired for that position and kept the league afloat. The problem is the league should not be in this position. They should have prospered because of the type of teams and owners in the league. They should not have had to wait until other leagues fail to be successful. They had the best product and an ego got in the way.

[preeths]

Dakota Crow will not be fired for only having good teams every year. He will be fired because of huge salary (owners pay for) and not doing anything for the league that justifies his need. Lets remember when the UIF began, all of these teams were champions and/or teams that had been operating for three plus years. I hate to see you posters giving him credit for this. Ask some of the owners how confrontational he is, and how he talks down to people because he has a position of power. Believe me the job got to his head. He did not fulfill the purpose of having such a position for a league that was supposed to be "premier". The UIF teams and owners made the league what it was. Not the Executive Director. Any person with an understanding of business could have been hired for that position and kept the league afloat. The problem is the league should not be in this position. They should have prospered because of the type of teams and owners in the league. They should not have had to wait until other leagues fail to be successful. They had the best product and an ego got in the way.

While it is true the UIF generally had strong owners, they also had some weak ones in the beginning including in Tupelo and Dayton. Crow made the tough call to get rid of Dayton on the eve of the season opener and take the short-term criticism for it, rather than follow the indoor football precedent of letting them start the season and dealing with the problems later. He's also brought in some good franchises, overseen several ownership changes, and in the end has captained a league that's played its games. Giving him all the credit for UIF's reputation may be a stretch, but so is giving him none.

[Pounder]

The rat I smell here...

Getting better talent at a lesser price is one of those fantasies that usually raises one of my eyebrows.

Of course, in the context of this discussion, I could argue that the firing comment is a prime piece of wishful thinking.

OTOH, is $80,000 a year accurate for UIF pooh-bah? I'd ask for more. I don't make as much as that, but there's no way in Hades that I'd take that job at the same salary I make now. Heightened risk (and the whole industry here is at risk) requires doling out a few more bucks for quality people.

[exit322]

It still lends the argument. If Crow should be fired for what he did, then the people in the AIFA and CIFL need to be fired sooner.

I'd take $80,000 for it. :-P

[IndoorExpert]

While it is true the UIF generally had strong owners, they also had some weak ones in the beginning including in Tupelo and Dayton. Crow made the tough call to get rid of Dayton on the eve of the season opener and take the short-term criticism for it, rather than follow the indoor football precedent of letting them start the season and dealing with the problems later. He's also brought in some good franchises, overseen several ownership changes, and in the end has captained a league that's played its games. Giving him all the credit for UIF's reputation may be a stretch, but so is giving him none.

Dayton was a joke and Dakota didnt make that call, the owners did. Dayton was voted into the NIFL that year without solid financial statements (go figure). They didnt have proper dasherboards or decent turf. It was a no brainer and it was done way before the season opener. No credit to Crow.

Tupelo had a good owner, he just didnt want to spend the money. He owned several Burger Kings and was much more successful with his minor league hockey team.

The ownership changes were also voted by the owners, not Crow. When Omaha and Ohio Valley changed ownership, it was change the ownership groups, or lose the franchises. Again, this was a no brainer or we would have seen a weaker UIF last year.

He brought in franchises from the defunct and wild NIFL. Billings and River City were two of the best franchises. Again, voted in by the owners and a no brainer. Again, the last two years they have gone after several franchises from the other leagues. They have not been very successful at doing that and not because of bad ownerships, but because of the dues and fees. Contrary to popular belief, team budgets do make a difference.

The reason the UIF has played all of their games has nothing to do with Crow. It has everything to do with the fact they had great franchises in their league. The UIF started with the best starting set of franchises ever assembled. Yes, some teams struggled and teams have come and gone, but lets be honest, if you start with the set of teams they did, the chance for success was very high.

Crow deserves very little credit and the success of the UIF falls with the owners. Remember this is a member owned league. I hate to see the UIF and WIFL going through problems. It is only making sub-par leagues look as if they are strengthening. The NIFL had a chance in the 2001-2003 era, and UIF had a chance in the 2005-2007 era. Unfortunately, things are changing across the nation and quantity has come before quality.

[preeths]

Dayton was a joke and Dakota didnt make that call, the owners did. Dayton was voted into the NIFL that year without solid financial statements (go figure). They didnt have proper dasherboards or decent turf. It was a no brainer and it was done way before the season opener. No credit to Crow.

False. Dayton was kicked out almost on the eve of their first game. If I remember correctly, Peoria was actually getting ready to board transportation for the opener when they were told the game was off. The Warbirds got into the league because one of those team owners vouched for them. You bet that in the end the owners agreed with Crow's call after he had been in Dayton looking over the situation.

Tupelo had a good owner, he just didnt want to spend the money. He owned several Burger Kings and was much more successful with his minor league hockey team.

By the time Tupelo joined UIF, its owner was all but done. He abandoned the team during the season. That's a good indoor football owner? Maybe he had been, by NIFL standards at one time, but not when he was part of UIF.

The ownership changes were also voted by the owners, not Crow. When Omaha and Ohio Valley changed ownership, it was change the ownership groups, or lose the franchises. Again, this was a no brainer or we would have seen a weaker UIF last year.

Again, Crow doesn't get all the credit for certain, but we've seen this before. Change the ownership group or lose the franchise does not make it a no brainer. Sometimes it is better to lose the franchise. It is pretty easy to constantly refer to events as no-brainers after the fact.

He brought in franchises from the defunct and wild NIFL. Billings and River City were two of the best franchises. Again, voted in by the owners and a no brainer. Again, the last two years they have gone after several franchises from the other leagues. They have not been very successful at doing that and not because of bad ownerships, but because of the dues and fees. Contrary to popular belief, team budgets do make a difference.

Sure, team budgets make a difference, and I have no doubt that UIF owners welcomed the quality groups in Billings and River City. You're going out of your way to give Crow no credit at all.

The reason the UIF has played all of their games has nothing to do with Crow. It has everything to do with the fact they had great franchises in their league. The UIF started with the best starting set of franchises ever assembled. Yes, some teams struggled and teams have come and gone, but lets be honest, if you start with the set of teams they did, the chance for success was very high.

Crow deserves very little credit and the success of the UIF falls with the owners. Remember this is a member owned league. I hate to see the UIF and WIFL going through problems. It is only making sub-par leagues look as if they are strengthening. The NIFL had a chance in the 2001-2003 era, and UIF had a chance in the 2005-2007 era. Unfortunately, things are changing across the nation and quantity has come before quality.

Once again, yes, the owners deserve credit, but I think most unbiased observers agree that Crow does as well. UIF not only plays all its games but does the little things like keep stats, issue press releases and hold a pretty nice All-Star game as well. He has helped provide the structure and leadership to get things done. Team owners will always concentrate primarily on their teams, and that's a good thing. You need someone else to take care of the league stuff. Crow has been that man, and the UIF as a league has conducted its business better than others. Now, you can argue that all that has come at a price, and perhaps that price is too high, but I don't believe you can rationally say Crow doesn't deserve some of the credit.

[GoCavs1]

I don't usually post hearsay but I have heard from the best source I have that Ft Collins and Soux City are also discussing moving from the UIF due to high operating costs. Still seeing myself if this rings true

[The King]

I have also heard that Evansville and Omaha had closed their doors. The arguement about DC is moot considering that the UIF was the premiere indoor league behind the AFL. If all these teams are truly leaving where does that leave the others that stay? The WIFL proved you can't have a 4 team league. The IPFL, remember that name, proved it also. The only league that is available to these teams and makes sense, travel wise is the AIFA. I am not saying it is the best choice but it is the better of all the other evils.

[exit322]

Until the AIFA's ownership falters all of the teams they're taking over/buying and some teams are stuck with no one to play. Then the costs start mounting up.

[IndoorExpert]

False. Dayton was kicked out almost on the eve of their first game. If I remember correctly, Peoria was actually getting ready to board transportation for the opener when they were told the game was off. The Warbirds got into the league because one of those team owners vouched for them. You bet that in the end the owners agreed with Crow's call after he had been in Dayton looking over the situation.

By the time Tupelo joined UIF, its owner was all but done. He abandoned the team during the season. That's a good indoor football owner? Maybe he had been, by NIFL standards at one time, but not when he was part of UIF.

Again, Crow doesn't get all the credit for certain, but we've seen this before. Change the ownership group or lose the franchise does not make it a no brainer. Sometimes it is better to lose the franchise. It is pretty easy to constantly refer to events as no-brainers after the fact.

Sure, team budgets make a difference, and I have no doubt that UIF owners welcomed the quality groups in Billings and River City. You're going out of your way to give Crow no credit at all.

Once again, yes, the owners deserve credit, but I think most unbiased observers agree that Crow does as well. UIF not only plays all its games but does the little things like keep stats, issue press releases and hold a pretty nice All-Star game as well. He has helped provide the structure and leadership to get things done. Team owners will always concentrate primarily on their teams, and that's a good thing. You need someone else to take care of the league stuff. Crow has been that man, and the UIF as a league has conducted its business better than others. Now, you can argue that all that has come at a price, and perhaps that price is too high, but I don't believe you can rationally say Crow doesn't deserve some of the credit.

How hard is it to see a team does not have the necessities to play a professional football game. Does that really need credit? Dayton should not have been in the league if it was properly researched. That may have started the better procedure for adding teams.

I meant Tupelo's owner was good by financial standards. Yes, he was done because he was much more successful with his minor league hockey team and his losses were increasing with indoor football. Many businesses fold and I cant totally blame the man for his decision. He would have probably been better in the NIFL for what he wanted.

Well explain to me why they kept both of those franchises (Omaha & Ohio Valley) just to see them both in the same problem the next season? Do you believe this was a good decision?

Both of these teams (Billings & River City) were searching for a new league and fit the geographic footprint. Does that need credit as well?

The stats are done by a unified stat program and are input by each individual team. Fines are levied if you dont comply. I do agree that the UIF does their print media very well. All team owners in the UIF were part of several committees that ran the league. Again, you are biased toward giving the owners credit. That is why they started the league in the first place, to have more control than the dictatorship offered by Carolyn Shiver, plus all of the lies. They were instrumental in running the league. Crow did take care of SOME of the league stuff, but also grew his staff each year without adding new franchises which is where the additional funds should have come from. So I will agree and give him a small piece of the prize. The prize just isnt what it should have been.

[preeths]

Well explain to me why they kept both of those franchises (Omaha & Ohio Valley) just to see them both in the same problem the next season? Do you believe this was a good decision?

Lou Stein poured his heart and soul into the Greyhounds. In the end, it didn't work out, but they completed the season. Omaha has played every game it has had scheduled, and I cannot see why UIF wouldn't have kept them around. You would have booted them for what?

Regarding Dayton, it should not have gone right up to the season opener, that we know. But you blame Crow for that, not the owners? How is it you only assign blame to Crow and credit to the owners? I give the owners tons of credit, but they're not assembling daily to work on league business. Their first priority has to be their respective teams. The league staff, headed up by Crow, conducts league business with the help and input of various ownership committees. Bottom line is that both Crow and team ownership share a good deal of credit. It's not an easy business.

[IndoorExpert]

Lou Stein poured his heart and soul into the Greyhounds. In the end, it didn't work out, but they completed the season. Omaha has played every game it has had scheduled, and I cannot see why UIF wouldn't have kept them around. You would have booted them for what?

Regarding Dayton, it should not have gone right up to the season opener, that we know. But you blame Crow for that, not the owners? How is it you only assign blame to Crow and credit to the owners? I give the owners tons of credit, but they're not assembling daily to work on league business. Their first priority has to be their respective teams. The league staff, headed up by Crow, conducts league business with the help and input of various ownership committees. Bottom line is that both Crow and team ownership share a good deal of credit. It's not an easy business.

I can accept some of your assesment when you take some of the bias away. I would have certainly kept all the franchises that were financially able in the league. I have known about some of the UIF's downfalls since 2005. I totally believe that they could have made a few different decisions and kept this going in the right direction. Again, this league had the best start-up of any indoor football league. Most of the teams were successful operations.

Yes, I do give blame to the owners and Dakota Crow for the Dayton situation. I just cant give him credit for the teams that were already successful without Dakota Crow. Sioux Falls and Sioux City owners were instrumental and the main voices of starting the league. They hand picked the owners right at the NIFL league meetings in Las Vegas. Again, there just isnt any credit to be given to the Executive Director on this one. I definitely dont just assign blame to one entity, but the Executive Director was in charge of the expansion efforts and then brought to the owners. I am just dissappointed that even the so-called "premier league" is falling apart. Are we looking at the near death of all of indoor football? I will definitely agree that this is a very tough business because the profit is not huge and the saying that "it takes money to make money" is the theme for indoor football.

[preeths]

Many leagues have successful franchises. Few have been able to do what UIF has. Some of the credit for the UIF's difference has to go to Crow and the league office. That's not bias, just fact. Undoubtedly, some of the credit also has to go to the owners.

I want to caution everyone to not accept rumor as fact. Until announcements are formally made, don't count on anything. As for Rockford, I don't think UIF is crying too much over losing a franchise that owes more than $200k in the community and recently sent out a letter to try to settle debts at 50 cents on the dollar. The Raptors may have left before they were booted.

[IndoorExpert]

Lets not be fooled, there are several franchises with outstanding debt. It is common for negotiating repayment terms. Its like wholesale versus retail prices. At the beginning everyone uses retail and when things dont happen like they are supposed to it is common to offer a fair market value for the actual services that are rendered.

Somethings are rumor and can be discredited. Others claim that their hearsay is fact. Facts can be what you make them when all of this information isnt published. All of us get information from our sources or from being involved in the sport. None of us can dispute some of this information because it is inside information and that makes it impossible to discredit.

Thats why there is message boards. To have a free voice to explain information, good or bad. I have seen a lot of information on here that is definitely not fact.

[preeths]

Like any open forum, you'll find some good information, some bad, and a whole lot of opinion. Rule number one: consider the source.

[IndoorExpert]

Many leagues have successful franchises. Few have been able to do what UIF has.

What has the UIF done? The WIFL played all of their games. The early 2000's the NIFL played all of their games. The IFL played all of their games. Of these 4 examples, the UIF had the easiest start. All they had to do was go to the league meetings of another indoor league and promise them a better tomorrow. I wouldnt exactly call that anything special or you would be saying that the AIFA is premier also.

[IndoorExpert]

Like any open forum, you'll find some good information, some bad, and a whole lot of opinion. Rule number one: consider the source.

I do consider the source. I only believe information from people that have been a part of this sport. All else, I consider to be mostly opinions. That is why I have said I consistently see information that is not fact on this message board.

[preeths]

You can consider posts to be anything you like. You, a self-proclaimed expert, have screwed up some facts, the timing of Dayton's demise among them, so you're not perfect either, and the memory of some insiders can be pretty fuzzy or biased.

You want to see some real hearsay and unsubstantiated rumors, you need to look at some of the other boards. I'll put the posters here up against any other group of posters anywhere. They're not all on target, but we have more here that are, than anywhere else. Shills are usually called out pretty fast here.

[exit322]

The NIFL played its full schedule once, in 2003. That was probably the best year of the sport, too.

[The Abyss]

The NIFL played its full schedule once, in 2003. That was probably the best year of the sport, too.


Sure was and wasn't it the next season that the 8 left and formedthe UIF?

[IndoorExpert]

You can consider posts to be anything you like. You, a self-proclaimed expert, have screwed up some facts, the timing of Dayton's demise among them, so you're not perfect either, and the memory of some insiders can be pretty fuzzy or biased.

You want to see some real hearsay and unsubstantiated rumors, you need to look at some of the other boards. I'll put the posters here up against any other group of posters anywhere. They're not all on target, but we have more here that are, than anywhere else. Shills are usually called out pretty fast here.

First off, when have I ever claimed to be perfect. It shows how insecure you are when questioned. Just answer the questions and save the childish name calling for your other posters. All message board names are for pure entertainment, check all of the poster names. I could care less about being an expert, and I wrote it as pure entertainment, but I have been an owner, a general manager, a coach, and several other titles over the years, so I really dont have to be self proclaimed as you do. I know from the inside of the business.

Dayton's problems were on a conference call before they were actually made to the public. I guess you were on that call as well. So spare me the media version of the facts. Should we believe all that we see in the media? If you do, you are not very intelligent.

I do like this board over the other ones I joined. I tried reading through the UIF board, CIFL, and AIFA and I will agree that I only bothered leaving a message on the CIFL board. I wont go as far as to say on target because most posts here are just a copy and paste of a newspaper or press release. Anyone can copy and paste, but do you have any real information from behind the scenes. Information that is interesting and comes to pass without the help from the media. That is what I like.

I love the sensitivity level of the ones that always want to be right. Yes, occassionally I am wrong when I use some of my sources information (those inside of the business). I am not so insecure that it hurts my feelings if I am wrong. Life is full of learning experiences and being wrong helps to improve in the future.

[IndoorExpert]

The NIFL played its full schedule once, in 2003. That was probably the best year of the sport, too.

2003 was a very good and competitive year. It was a year that could have been capitalized, but it wasnt. In 2004 when Carolyn offered three franchises to one owner, it started to fall and thats when Ft. Collins and Greenville started the domino affect of the demise of the NIFL.

[IndoorExpert]

Sure was and wasn't it the next season that the 8 left and formedthe UIF?

No, that was 2005. 2004 started the major schedule changes, added playoff teams, and Carolyn killing off the league.

[Freedom]

What has the UIF done? The WIFL played all of their games. The early 2000's the NIFL played all of their games. The IFL played all of their games. Of these 4 examples, the UIF had the easiest start. All they had to do was go to the league meetings of another indoor league and promise them a better tomorrow. I wouldnt exactly call that anything special or you would be saying that the AIFA is premier also.

It's more than just playing all their games over the last three years. But that in itself is a great accomplishment considering the state of indoor football today. I liked their communication, game previews, stats, website. I liked being able to sign up for instant scores on my phone or e-mail alerts. Web casts of games and weekly radio shows. It was nice to sign up for a newsletter and actually get one. I liked the fact they never felt a need to release outrageous claims to make the league look better than it is. None of that NIFL "80,000,000 to charity" crap, false statements about "TV" deals, and upcoming events for next year that never happen. Games were mostly very competitive, played on time with good entertainment in decent facilities. I could go on and on, but the fact is, the UIF did a very nice job.

My biggest concern is that they kept losing potential teams to "cheaper" leagues. None of these teams are bullet proof, and all leagues will have teams close up shop. But there still must be controlled expansion to replace failing markets. Without it, you see what is happening. The UIF is getting spread thin. Maybe their strict entrance policies is too much? Maybe the league is too expensive? Maybe expansion was too controlled? Maybe it is DC? I don't know. But that doesn't diminish the great accomplishments the UIF has had over the last three years. Out of the three leagues FW has had, the UIF has done the best job. Hopefully they stay around for the long haul . . .

[IndoorExpert]

It's more than just playing all their games over the last three years. But that in itself is a great accomplishment considering the state of indoor football today. I liked their communication, game previews, stats, website. I liked being able to sign up for instant scores on my phone or e-mail alerts. Web casts of games and weekly radio shows. It was nice to sign up for a newsletter and actually get one. I liked the fact they never felt a need to release outrageous claims to make the league look better than it is. None of that NIFL "80,000,000 to charity" crap, false statements about "TV" deals, and upcoming events for next year that never happen. Games were mostly very competitive, played on time with good entertainment in decent facilities. I could go on and on, but the fact is, the UIF did a very nice job.

My biggest concern is that they kept losing potential teams to "cheaper" leagues. None of these teams are bullet proof, and all leagues will have teams close up shop. But there still must be controlled expansion to replace failing markets. Without it, you see what is happening. The UIF is getting spread thin. Maybe their strict entrance policies is too much? Maybe the league is too expensive? Maybe expansion was too controlled? Maybe it is DC? I don't know. But that doesn't diminish the great accomplishments the UIF has had over the last three years. Out of the three leagues FW has had, the UIF has done the best job. Hopefully they stay around for the long haul . . .


That is a very informed post. You state your claim well and I appreciate that. I also liked the UIF, but I also believe that when you have a niche in the market, you better take advantage of it. I truly believe that the UIF could have carefully listened to the concerns around the league and internally fixed some of the complaints. Nothing that they needed to put into the media, but they could have fixed. Teams would have stayed if some of the internal problems were fixed and that included some of the money they charged. Many people questioned where all of the money was going, and the need for a high priced league office and employees. I agree that they were very professional and they could have stayed professional while reducing some of the expenditures. I am not in favor of expansion unless it fits the geographic footprint. Lets say Wyoming for instance would fit between the Ice and Outlaws. The key was keeping the owners who also had a stake in the league happy and that didnt happen. Lets not bad mouth the owners for making changes. These owners arent like the Pewonski's and Lamunyan's (NIFL) or Davenport's (CIFL) or even the Mink and Morris's (AIFA Montgomery). This league started so beautifully and didnt capitalize on the momentum. Now the so-called expert on here is bad mouthing Rock River for their efforts and the need to lower their budget. Funny how that works.

[exit322]

2003 was a very good and competitive year. It was a year that could have been capitalized, but it wasnt. In 2004 when Carolyn offered three franchises to one owner, it started to fall and thats when Ft. Collins and Greenville started the domino affect of the demise of the NIFL.

And what happened between that time? Tina Johnson (Carolyn's sister, and league operations manager) unexpectedly died. I think if nothing else, we've proven who the brains in the NIFL operation really was.

[IndoorExpert]

And what happened between that time? Tina Johnson (Carolyn's sister, and league operations manager) unexpectedly died. I think if nothing else, we've proven who the brains in the NIFL operation really was.

Well I can definitely agree with that. When Tina was still alive, things were much more professional. She was always on top of things and returned phone calls. After that you were on your own no matter how many messages you left the supposed league office.

[exit322]

Oh, I'd say she just kept her sister in check, beyond all of that kind of stuff. If Carolyn decided to do something stupid, Tina pulled the plug.

[Minor League Man]

RIP Tina Johnson...indoor football hasn't been the same without you...

[preeths]

First off, when have I ever claimed to be perfect. It shows how insecure you are when questioned. Just answer the questions and save the childish name calling for your other posters. All message board names are for pure entertainment, check all of the poster names. I could care less about being an expert, and I wrote it as pure entertainment, but I have been an owner, a general manager, a coach, and several other titles over the years, so I really dont have to be self proclaimed as you do. I know from the inside of the business.

When you come on here and start insulting the board, I have a problem with that. You didn't pose questions, you posted a backhanded slap. For someone who doesn't give a rip about the opinions posted here, by anyone outside the leagues, you sure do spend a lot of time on the board. You're miffed you were wrong, and I called you on it. For someone just having fun with your name, you spent a bit of time trying to defend it above. I haven't claimed to be anyone but someone who has been involved with and watched the indoor game since just before Dick Suess launched the PIFL.

Dayton's problems were on a conference call before they were actually made to the public. I guess you were on that call as well. So spare me the media version of the facts. Should we believe all that we see in the media? If you do, you are not very intelligent.

Remind me, who's resorting to insults? No question Dayton's problems were brewing for awhile and were discussed by the league. That's pretty much what the media reported and those inside the league said at the time. The fact remains UIF made the tough, potentially embarrassing call the other indoor leagues up to that time, and since, haven't made.

I do like this board over the other ones I joined. I tried reading through the UIF board, CIFL, and AIFA and I will agree that I only bothered leaving a message on the CIFL board. I wont go as far as to say on target because most posts here are just a copy and paste of a newspaper or press release. Anyone can copy and paste, but do you have any real information from behind the scenes. Information that is interesting and comes to pass without the help from the media. That is what I like.

Granted, the offseason is slower here, and some try to use the lull to spread false rumors. We tend to call them on it pretty quickly. Check the NIFL board over the last year for info that appeared here before anywhere else, and that's just one example. That would include calls to venues to check on leases, the reasons for cancelled games, pictures from the only outdoor indoor game, direction of league franchises, etc. We have league heads, GMs, coaches and players who post original information here. But the boards aren't only about hard information, they're also for opinions. That's also part of the fun as long as everyone sensibly backs up their opinions. I will say it. This board is on target far more often than other boards I've seen, and that's a credit to our users.

I love the sensitivity level of the ones that always want to be right. Yes, occassionally I am wrong when I use some of my sources information (those inside of the business). I am not so insecure that it hurts my feelings if I am wrong. Life is full of learning experiences and being wrong helps to improve in the future.

That's great. Don't take shots at the board, and we'll be fine. I have never claimed to always be right. I try to reference all the points I make and spend a great deal of time talking to people. Even if I disagree with them, at least I know where they're coming from. On the other hand, you're the one who comes on with an obvious, disingenuous bias against Dakota Crow. You don't have to like the guy, that's your prerogative. I'm not arguing for sainthood, only that he's been one cog in the best indoor football machine we've seen.

I don't know why you felt the need to take a slap at our posters. That's not good, and don't expect it to go without a response.

[preeths]

Oh, I'd say she just kept her sister in check, beyond all of that kind of stuff. If Carolyn decided to do something stupid, Tina pulled the plug.

Ms. Johnson's loss was felt by the NIFL no doubt, but problems were really built into the league from the start. With each passing year, they caught up to the NIFL more and more.

[exit322]

That's the thing - they weren't catching up with anyone until after Tina died. The league's best year was 2003...not 2001 (2004 was still better than 2001). I'd say things changed a LOT after she died.

[IndoorExpert]

When you come on here and start insulting the board, I have a problem with that. You didn't pose questions, you posted a backhanded slap. For someone who doesn't give a rip about the opinions posted here, by anyone outside the leagues, you sure do spend a lot of time on the board. You're miffed you were wrong, and I called you on it. For someone just having fun with your name, you spent a bit of time trying to defend it above. I haven't claimed to be anyone but someone who has been involved with and watched the indoor game since just before Dick Suess launched the PIFL.

Remind me, who's resorting to insults? No question Dayton's problems were brewing for awhile and were discussed by the league. That's pretty much what the media reported and those inside the league said at the time. The fact remains UIF made the tough, potentially embarrassing call the other indoor leagues up to that time, and since, haven't made.

Granted, the offseason is slower here, and some try to use the lull to spread false rumors. We tend to call them on it pretty quickly. Check the NIFL board over the last year for info that appeared here before anywhere else, and that's just one example. That would include calls to venues to check on leases, the reasons for cancelled games, pictures from the only outdoor indoor game, direction of league franchises, etc. We have league heads, GMs, coaches and players who post original information here. But the boards aren't only about hard information, they're also for opinions. That's also part of the fun as long as everyone sensibly backs up their opinions. I will say it. This board is on target far more often than other boards I've seen, and that's a credit to our users.

That's great. Don't take shots at the board, and we'll be fine. I have never claimed to always be right. I try to reference all the points I make and spend a great deal of time talking to people. Even if I disagree with them, at least I know where they're coming from. On the other hand, you're the one who comes on with an obvious, disingenuous bias against Dakota Crow. You don't have to like the guy, that's your prerogative. I'm not arguing for sainthood, only that he's been one cog in the best indoor football machine we've seen.

I don't know why you felt the need to take a slap at our posters. That's not good, and don't expect it to go without a response.

I didnt insult the board. I simply responded to your post. I see the bias with you. When banketman spoke up and some if his information is dead right, you and several posters called him all kinds of things. You told him to grow up or you would basically ban him from the board. Why is it alright for you to act in that way if this is about opinions? You have responded to me several times and I KNOW a lot of my information is correct. Then I see over and over the insults from others, misinformation from others, and you say nothing to them. Is that biased or what? You call out those you choose. What is your criteria for picking who you respond to, and who you dont?

Yes, I did pose questions and you never respond to questions, you offer rhetorical statements. That keeps the negativity going, but again you only do it to some. Again, I read the boards to get information and give opinions. It is entertaining to see how people view the sport. Because I have been involved for a long time, public perception of the sport will aid in my decision to continue in this sport or change my focus. I have loved the indoor game since its inception and I pray that it lasts, but that looks to be in jeopardy.

As I said, I am not an insecure person. I have no problem when my opinion or information is wrong. When I talked about Ft Wayne and you offered a very logical explanation, I said, YOU ARE RIGHT! My opinion was off based slightly. I am not afraid of mistakes, but it sounds like you are. You have provided misinformation and you hate to be called out. If you are scared to make a mistake, you havent lived a day of your life. As a public speaker, I speak out, and sometimes I will rattle a few feathers. I have no problem in doing so. Real men arent so sensitive and I fear nothing.

I have not tried to defend my silly little poster name, but I have been involved on the inside. That at least makes me qualified to speak on the subject. Is telling the truth to you a defense? If you have never been involved with the sport, be a fan and speak like a fan. Again, when I read Freedom's post, I felt exactly what he was saying from a fans perspective. It was quite informative. In this business the players and the fans are your greatest assets.

Yes, you are quite insulting, but only to certain people. That doesnt bother me at all, but I will give you my opinion if you give me yours.

The UIF made a brilliant decision in getting rid of Dayton. I have never said otherwise. Yes, they had problems from the start. What exactly am I wrong about. I said that the UIF knew of these problems long before the official press release. You stated that it all came about the night before the first game. On this one, you are wrong it was made public at the end.

I think the UIF is a great product, but when your business model begins to fail, you must adjust and conform or sink. They are choosing to sink because of ego, not business practices. I hate to see ego be the demise of several leagues because everyone wants to be the Jesus of indoor football. Football was great long before indoor football came around and if we concentrated on making it better and not who gets the credit, the sport would survive.

Again, I like a good portion of information that is passed around on OSC. There is some very intelligent people and people that have good ideas. This conversation began with someones ego that they were right and others were wrong. Probably should check your ego at the door and not be afraid to be criticized if you criticize others.

As far as Dakota Crow, I dont have a bias towards him other than the fact that he is the Media name in charge. I see how much negative posts Carolyn Shiver has taken, rightfully so. Isnt Crow up for the same fair treatment. He is a babysitter for a great owner based league. He didnt re-invent the wheel. Most people have no idea what league heads do, so I will reserve my opinion for dealing with league heads because I have personally had to deal with a few, and I know what their role is supposed to be. Any person that is not used to power should not be in that position. If your ego or greed gets in the way of business, you should bow yourself out of the sport so you dont drive it into the ground.

I still cannot agree with your assesment of the UIF. Yes, it has been a very great league, but not because of some of what you say. I will say it for the last time, it was great because of the SF Storm, SC Bandits, O Beef, OV Greyhounds, L Horsemen, and franchises such as those that have been doing business well at this level. These models were already well oiled machines and it made the league successful because these individuals were committed to playing the game of indoor football. The league had the best start-up of any other minor league sports venture. They began day one as a success.

What posters did I take a shot at? Another poor assesment, Preeths. Lets get back to talking football or do you another another tirade because I questioned the great Preeths?

[cRUSHer]

What posters did I take a shot at?
Another poor assesment, Preeths.

:confused:
You took plenty of shots at me,
all for being a good and loyal fan

[IndoorExpert]

:confused:
You took plenty of shots at me,
all for being a good and loyal fan

No, just questioned some of the things you said to others. Its not personal, just conversation. The sensitivity level is high on here, but a few like to dish it out. Interesting................

[preeths]

I didnt insult the board. I simply responded to your post. I see the bias with you. When banketman spoke up and some if his information is dead right, you and several posters called him all kinds of things. You told him to grow up or you would basically ban him from the board. Why is it alright for you to act in that way if this is about opinions? You have responded to me several times and I KNOW a lot of my information is correct. Then I see over and over the insults from others, misinformation from others, and you say nothing to them. Is that biased or what? You call out those you choose. What is your criteria for picking who you respond to, and who you dont?

blanketman was chastised not for what he said, but for the way he said it. He insulted people, I believe with the word "idiots," a clear violation of board rules. He apologized for the insult and moved on, something you don't seem able to do. You too often respond to posts with condescension and when others respond to it, you claim they're too sensitive. Come down off your high horse and talk with us commoners. We're pretty nice folks.

I cannot verify everything said on here. You know that. Other times, I may have information, but until things are finalized I wait to post it. It's not perfect, but my track record is pretty good and is here for all to see. What's yours?

Yes, I did pose questions and you never respond to questions, you offer rhetorical statements. That keeps the negativity going, but again you only do it to some. Again, I read the boards to get information and give opinions. It is entertaining to see how people view the sport. Because I have been involved for a long time, public perception of the sport will aid in my decision to continue in this sport or change my focus. I have loved the indoor game since its inception and I pray that it lasts, but that looks to be in jeopardy.

Enough with the persecution complex. I believe indoor football has a bright future...eventually. It is going to have to find a way past the personality conflicts and teams are going to have to make better decisions. Right now, teams are choosing the cheapest route time after time, with little regard to the long-term future. We need to get past that point.

As I said, I am not an insecure person. I have no problem when my opinion or information is wrong. When I talked about Ft Wayne and you offered a very logical explanation, I said, YOU ARE RIGHT! My opinion was off based slightly. I am not afraid of mistakes, but it sounds like you are. You have provided misinformation and you hate to be called out. If you are scared to make a mistake, you havent lived a day of your life. As a public speaker, I speak out, and sometimes I will rattle a few feathers. I have no problem in doing so. Real men arent so sensitive and I fear nothing.

Great, I'm glad to hear you're a "real man," but this isn't about you. You keep making the argument personal and really got fiired up by the mere mention of the possibility that Dakota Crow might share in the credit for making the UIF a relatively strong league. It's too bad you have no tolerance for a different opinion, however mild.

I have not tried to defend my silly little poster name, but I have been involved on the inside. That at least makes me qualified to speak on the subject. Is telling the truth to you a defense? If you have never been involved with the sport, be a fan and speak like a fan. Again, when I read Freedom's post, I felt exactly what he was saying from a fans perspective. It was quite informative. In this business the players and the fans are your greatest assets.

Yes, you are quite insulting, but only to certain people. That doesnt bother me at all, but I will give you my opinion if you give me yours.

No one said you were unqualified, only that you're no more qualified than many here to give your assessment of the facts. I will speak as I choose, and you are in my house, so don't presume to tell me how to do so.

The UIF made a brilliant decision in getting rid of Dayton. I have never said otherwise. Yes, they had problems from the start. What exactly am I wrong about. I said that the UIF knew of these problems long before the official press release. You stated that it all came about the night before the first game. On this one, you are wrong it was made public at the end.

Now it was a "brilliant" decision? Wasn't it a "no-brainer" just a few posts back? Of course Dayton had issues for awhile. That's why the league was keeping an eye on it. But your memory is faulty. The league called off the first Dayton game the night before, exactly as I stated. That's when the final decision was made. Here's the press release from March 16, 2005, one day before the Warbirds' and UIF's scheduled opener:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3135761

I think the UIF is a great product, but when your business model begins to fail, you must adjust and conform or sink. They are choosing to sink because of ego, not business practices. I hate to see ego be the demise of several leagues because everyone wants to be the Jesus of indoor football. Football was great long before indoor football came around and if we concentrated on making it better and not who gets the credit, the sport would survive.

Again, I like a good portion of information that is passed around on OSC. There is some very intelligent people and people that have good ideas. This conversation began with someones ego that they were right and others were wrong. Probably should check your ego at the door and not be afraid to be criticized if you criticize others.

Agreed, good luck working on that.

As far as Dakota Crow, I dont have a bias towards him other than the fact that he is the Media name in charge. I see how much negative posts Carolyn Shiver has taken, rightfully so. Isnt Crow up for the same fair treatment. He is a babysitter for a great owner based league. He didnt re-invent the wheel. Most people have no idea what league heads do, so I will reserve my opinion for dealing with league heads because I have personally had to deal with a few, and I know what their role is supposed to be. Any person that is not used to power should not be in that position. If your ego or greed gets in the way of business, you should bow yourself out of the sport so you dont drive it into the ground.

I still cannot agree with your assesment of the UIF. Yes, it has been a very great league, but not because of some of what you say. I will say it for the last time, it was great because of the SF Storm, SC Bandits, O Beef, OV Greyhounds, L Horsemen, and franchises such as those that have been doing business well at this level. These models were already well oiled machines and it made the league successful because these individuals were committed to playing the game of indoor football. The league had the best start-up of any other minor league sports venture. They began day one as a success.

That's a drastic overstatement. UIF may have had the best start-up of any indoor football league, but I can think of a couple independent baseball leagues, in addition to the NLL and MLL that had better start-ups. That's just off the top of my head. What about Rapid City, Tupelo, Peoria and Fort Wayne? They weren't overly strong UIF ownerships. You are absolutely correct in stating that the overall great team ownerships in UIF have helped make the league at least among the best indoor football has to offer. So has the UIF league staff.

What posters did I take a shot at? Another poor assesment, Preeths. Lets get back to talking football or do you another another tirade because I questioned the great Preeths?

Didn't take you long to get back to the condescension, did it? Maybe your skin isn't as thick as you'd like to believe. See cRUSHer above for some shots. I consider your statements that you "consistently see information that is not fact on this message board," not once but twice, to be a shot at the board. In any open forum, you see untrue things, some purposefully so, others not. Some verifiable, some not. That's the nature of the beast. As usual you changed your story in subsequent posts to state this board is better than others. That's good enough for me.

[preeths]

That's the thing - they weren't catching up with anyone until after Tina died. The league's best year was 2003...not 2001 (2004 was still better than 2001). I'd say things changed a LOT after she died.

And still the league completed only one season. Good ownership was disgruntled well before the UIF split, and several teams were being propped up. There were a lot of problems under the surface, due in part to the league's structure. One person was the grand poobah of the league and could do as she pleased. Bottom line is that once that person stopped pouring money into the league, it went from stumbling to falling.

[IndoorExpert]

blanketman was chastised not for what he said, but for the way he said it. He insulted people, I believe with the word "idiots," a clear violation of board rules. He apologized for the insult and moved on, something you don't seem able to do. You too often respond to posts with condescension and when others respond to it, you claim they're too sensitive. Come down off your high horse and talk with us commoners. We're pretty nice folks.

I cannot verify everything said on here. You know that. Other times, I may have information, but until things are finalized I wait to post it. It's not perfect, but my track record is pretty good and is here for all to see. What's yours?



Enough with the persecution complex. I believe indoor football has a bright future...eventually. It is going to have to find a way past the personality conflicts and teams are going to have to make better decisions. Right now, teams are choosing the cheapest route time after time, with little regard to the long-term future. We need to get past that point.



Great, I'm glad to hear you're a "real man," but this isn't about you. You keep making the argument personal and really got fiired up by the mere mention of the possibility that Dakota Crow might share in the credit for making the UIF a relatively strong league. It's too bad you have no tolerance for a different opinion, however mild.



No one said you were unqualified, only that you're no more qualified than many here to give your assessment of the facts. I will speak as I choose, and you are in my house, so don't presume to tell me how to do so.



Now it was a "brilliant" decision? Wasn't it a "no-brainer" just a few posts back? Of course Dayton had issues for awhile. That's why the league was keeping an eye on it. But your memory is faulty. The league called off the first Dayton game the night before, exactly as I stated. That's when the final decision was made. Here's the press release from March 16, 2005, one day before the Warbirds' and UIF's scheduled opener:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3135761



Agreed, good luck working on that.



That's a drastic overstatement. UIF may have had the best start-up of any indoor football league, but I can think of a couple independent baseball leagues, in addition to the NLL and MLL that had better start-ups. That's just off the top of my head. What about Rapid City, Tupelo, Peoria and Fort Wayne? They weren't overly strong UIF ownerships. You are absolutely correct in stating that the overall great team ownerships in UIF have helped make the league at least among the best indoor football has to offer. So has the UIF league staff.



Didn't take you long to get back to the condescension, did it? Maybe your skin isn't as thick as you'd like to believe. See cRUSHer above for some shots. I consider your statements that you "consistently see information that is not fact on this message board," not once but twice, to be a shot at the board. In any open forum, you see untrue things, some purposefully so, others not. Some verifiable, some not. That's the nature of the beast. As usual you changed your story in subsequent posts to state this board is better than others. That's good enough for me.

You seem to change your tune quite often as well. You can perceive what you want and when you want as I can. Again your media source doesnt necessarily tell the whole story, only what the media knows. Again, I praised the UIF for keeping things out of the media. Brilliant move and no-brainer are both part of the equation. Not being ready to play and being told you wont=no-brainer, not being afraid to say it instead of a mid-season crisis=brilliant.

Again, have you ever in your life made a comment and then felt you could revise your thought process. I sure hope so. Dont be so mad that you arent always right. Its alright to make a mistake every once in awhile.

No shots at anyone in particular just those that act higher and mightier than the rest. You said common folk are pretty nice people, I have stated that there are plenty of good people on the board, and I enjoy the board. Its also entertainment and this conversation has been just that. You have responded over and over and then say I am not letting it go, check the mirror. Its OVER, I dont agree with your assessments and that shouldnt bother you.

Now, back to football.

[preeths]

You seem to change your tune quite often as well. You can perceive what you want and when you want as I can. Again your media source doesnt necessarily tell the whole story, only what the media knows. Again, I praised the UIF for keeping things out of the media. Brilliant move and no-brainer are both part of the equation. Not being ready to play and being told you wont=no-brainer, not being afraid to say it instead of a mid-season crisis=brilliant.

Again, have you ever in your life made a comment and then felt you could revise your thought process. I sure hope so. Dont be so mad that you arent always right. Its alright to make a mistake every once in awhile.

If you're revising your thought process, fine and good. But don't try to portray it as if that was your opinion the entire time. But that would mean you're not always right, or at least some revision is necessary to get to "right." That has nothing to do with me. I've stated numerous times in numerous ways that I'm not always right: "It's not perfect, but my track record is pretty good," "I cannot verify everything said on here," "I haven't claimed to be anyone but someone who has been involved with and watched the indoor game since just before Dick Suess launched the PIFL," "I have never claimed to always be right..." are just some examples of my statements from earlier in this thread.

No shots at anyone in particular just those that act higher and mightier than the rest. You said common folk are pretty nice people, I have stated that there are plenty of good people on the board, and I enjoy the board. Its also entertainment and this conversation has been just that. You have responded over and over and then say I am not letting it go, check the mirror. Its OVER, I dont agree with your assessments and that shouldnt bother you.

Now, back to football.

I get the feeling much of the time that you're not arguing with what I'm saying, but with what you think I'm saying. So now you did take some shots? Where did I ask you to let it go? You're right, this argument between the two of us is pointless. You keep changing your story.

[IndoorExpert]

Again, Preeths, your argument has no merit. Stop portraying your great record, that is your opinion. You are self proclaimed and unimpressive. My story has not changed at all. I have added a few details to the story because obviously it is hard to write every detail on this board.

All you do is deny, and then try to twist the story around. Its pointless, I stand behind what I say and I will admit when I am wrong, unlike you do. We all know you cant verify all of your information so lets reserve the comments to popular demand. I am not real sure you know what you are talking about all together, but you keep going. I will keep responding if you do, or we can let it go.

I do not agree with you, and your posts are getting less impressive each and every day. Respond to someone else.

[preeths]

Again, Preeths, your argument has no merit. Stop portraying your great record, that is your opinion. You are self proclaimed and unimpressive. My story has not changed at all. I have added a few details to the story because obviously it is hard to write every detail on this board.

All you do is deny, and then try to twist the story around. Its pointless, I stand behind what I say and I will admit when I am wrong, unlike you do. We all know you cant verify all of your information so lets reserve the comments to popular demand. I am not real sure you know what you are talking about all together, but you keep going. I will keep responding if you do, or we can let it go.

No, not even a good attempt to spin this time. My quotes from before: "It's not perfect, but my track record is pretty good," "I cannot verify everything said on here," "I haven't claimed to be anyone but someone who has been involved with and watched the indoor game since just before Dick Suess launched the PIFL," "I have never claimed to always be right..." are just some examples of my statements from earlier in this thread. Who has the ego again?

I do not agree with you, and your posts are getting less impressive each and every day. Respond to someone else.

Boy, sure is disappointing to hear I haven't impressed you. What do you think you are? My coach?

[cRUSHer]

No, just questioned some of the things you said to others.
Its not personal, just conversation.
The sensitivity level is high on here,
but a few like to dish it out. Interesting................

see ...here's the thing ....
preeths has N E V E R told me about
the content of anything I've posted. Nor the
manner in which the contents were presented.

But then again , I don't go around ripping on
posters while claiming to be an expert.Then
back pedal when it's brought to my attention
that I am being abrasive.

All I have done is prefer United Indoor Football
over what else is available to me.

[AllAces]

Dude - it appears you have just enough information to be dangerous (to yourself). You are no expert and you do not appear to have far reaching sources from a large variety leagues and teams. In short - you don't know what you don't know. That is what makes you come off so ignorant on this thread.

Also, you picked the wrong person to attack. In his modesty, Paul has not said that his information does not come from media - it comes from league representatives, team owners, head coaches, players and others who have first hand knowledge of what is going on, as well as reputable local media sources.

Paul has a long earned reputation as being honest, knowledgeable, credible and honorable. Who are you? Your disrespect reeks of insecurity...

[Bruiser]

All I have done is prefer United Indoor Football
over what else is available to me.
That is enough to be lashed in some parts, suh.
You are a scoundrel and scallywag to support
such a league who's fall shall dwarf that of
Lee's disgrace at Gettysburg.

Keep them finger's pickin, looking forward
to seein ya tear it up on the 19th. :-)

[IndoorExpert]

see ...here's the thing ....
preeths has N E V E R told me about
the content of anything I've posted. Nor the
manner in which the contents were presented.

But then again , I don't go around ripping on
posters while claiming to be an expert.Then
back pedal when it's brought to my attention
that I am being abrasive.

All I have done is prefer United Indoor Football
over what else is available to me.

I know he is your buddy, friend, or other and that doesnt say much. You have attacked plenty of posters and because of that bias, he doesnt say anything to you. My point exactly, and I guess you are a real CRUSHER. Is that what you claim to be?

[IndoorExpert]

Dude - it appears you have just enough information to be dangerous (to yourself). You are no expert and you do not appear to have far reaching sources from a large variety leagues and teams. In short - you don't know what you don't know. That is what makes you come off so ignorant on this thread.

Also, you picked the wrong person to attack. In his modesty, Paul has not said that his information does not come from media - it comes from league representatives, team owners, head coaches, players and others who have first hand knowledge of what is going on, as well as reputable local media sources.

Paul has a long earned reputation as being honest, knowledgeable, credible and honorable. Who are you? Your disrespect reeks of insecurity...

And I guess you are an expert. You wouldnt know what I was talking about if it smacked you in the face. Media sources arent the most credible sources. Lets not forget that the Media is still a business and must be viewed by many. The truth and without twist doesnt always sell.

[IndoorExpert]

I can hold my own. So please keep putting me down. I am not the faker some of you claim to be. At least I dont have to lie and pretend I have done something in the world of football. I have been to the highest level of the sport. So keep going arm chair quarterbacks..........

[preeths]

Combative to the last. At least you're consistent in that.

[cRUSHer]

I know he is your buddy, friend, or other and that doesnt say much. You have attacked plenty of posters and because of that bias, he doesnt say anything to you. My point exactly, and I guess you are a real CRUSHER. Is that what you claim to be?


Lo he spake in a thundering voice...
"Yes , I am a real crusher. No Pistaschio can
withstand my awesome power.
behold ... I am snacking".<<<thunder & lightning>>>

& btw...
I do not attack players, teams , fans , owners,
coaches , sponsors , administrators as a general
rule. Most people who have been around the
block once already know it and think you're
making it up as you go along.

[cRUSHer]

I have been to the highest level of the sport.

Next time buy your season seats on the main floor.
bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...:lol:


it's getting deep in here ... Mr Foster.

[AllAces]

I have been to the highest level of the sport.

You, Carolyn Shiver and Clevelnd Gary. All credible sources...

Now I believe you!

[preeths]

I am not the faker some of you claim to be.

All right, show of hands. Who's claiming to be a faker?

[cRUSHer]

I know he is your buddy, friend, or other and that doesnt say much.

It doesn't say anything ...yet.

The truth is ,I have never had the pleasure
of making preeths acquantance.

Even so I must admit he seems a fine
enough judge of character 8-)

[IndoorExpert]

Combative to the last. At least you're consistent in that.


I just keep rules of engagement fair and equal.

[IndoorExpert]

You, Carolyn Shiver and Clevelnd Gary. All credible sources...

Now I believe you!

And you and Howard Oneil or whichever one of his aliases you use are credible as well. I give Cleveland Gary for at least playing in the NFL. I give credit to Carolyn Shiver for at least having a league and having the best name (NIFL). What do you get credit for?

[IndoorExpert]

It doesn't say anything ...yet.

The truth is ,I have never had the pleasure
of making preeths acquantance.

Even so I must admit he seems a fine
enough judge of character 8-)


Always kissing up are we?

[IndoorExpert]

Next time buy your season seats on the main floor.
bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...:lol:


it's getting deep in here ... Mr Foster.


If you only knew, but I will wager anything you want as to if this is true or not. Let me know if you can put any money where your mouth is.

[IndoorExpert]

You, Carolyn Shiver and Clevelnd Gary. All credible sources...

Now I believe you!

If you only knew, but I will wager anything you want as to if this is true or not. Let me know if you can put any money where your mouth is.

[preeths]

Man, seriously now you don't even know who you're talking to. There are some guys here who have been, and still are, deeply involved in the game, at least as deeply as you were. Yes, I know who you are, but maybe you already knew that. There's no need to insult them, too. I guess anyone who takes issue with your abrasiveness is a target now.

[Rocky]

"I know more than you...no you don't...yes I do...fans know all...fans know nothing...If you don't work in indoor football you know nothing....if you do work in indoor football you need to reevalute your career objectives..."


Whew. All this thread is missing is Jim F'n Terry!

[IndoorExpert]

Preeths, I know you know who I am, and I know a few people in here that have been involved, literally. I am only responding to all of the unsubstantiated claims of calling me out. If people want to call others out, they should at least realize there are people out there who have really been in the business. I respect all of the people who have contributed to this great game (football in general). I have so much respect for this game and I give back consistently. That is why I have coached so many different levels and participate in so many clinics. I LOVE this game. I just hate when people cant stand that there are many of us that have given our lives to this game. While others continue to criticize owners and coaches for what happens to franchises, I will be here defending them because this is one of the hardest businesses to survive in.

[IndoorExpert]

"I know more than you...no you don't...yes I do...fans know all...fans know nothing...If you don't work in indoor football you know nothing....if you do work in indoor football you need to reevalute your career objectives..."


Whew. All this thread is missing is Jim F'n Terry!

As crazy as Jim Terry is, he keeps on going. He keeps broadcasting and he does not care what people think of him. You dont have to agree with him or like him, but he did somehow get the Hitmen on ESPN News with the Maurice Clarett deal. Got to give him some credit also.

[exit322]

Yes, because one obviously mentally disturbed individual taking advantage of another obviously mentally disturbed individual deserves credit.

[preeths]

Preeths, I know you know who I am, and I know a few people in here that have been involved, literally. I am only responding to all of the unsubstantiated claims of calling me out. If people want to call others out, they should at least realize there are people out there who have really been in the business. I respect all of the people who have contributed to this great game (football in general). I have so much respect for this game and I give back consistently. That is why I have coached so many different levels and participate in so many clinics. I LOVE this game. I just hate when people cant stand that there are many of us that have given our lives to this game. While others continue to criticize owners and coaches for what happens to franchises, I will be here defending them because this is one of the hardest businesses to survive in.

On this we can agree. Everyone who's contributed to the game deserves a certain amount of respect. That doesn't mean I always agree with them, but I always try to hear them out. At the very least, I can learn something from the different perspectives people have.

Minor league sports, in general, is a tough business. Indoor football sometimes takes it to a new level.

[cRUSHer]

If you only knew, but I will wager anything you want as to if this is true or not. Let me know if you can put any money where your mouth is.

Wager on what ??? :confused:

[IndoorExpert]

Yes, because one obviously mentally disturbed individual taking advantage of another obviously mentally disturbed individual deserves credit.


I have no idea what he has or hasnt done. I know he surfaces in many leagues and talks. I dont know him well enough to call him mentally disturbed or say he took advantage of someone.

[IndoorExpert]

Wager on what ??? :confused:

All I am saying is if you dont believe that I have been to the top level of football, place a wager on it so I can prove you wrong. I am totally on the level. Are you? You called me out, I can prove where I have been. Can you?

[rams80]

I have no idea what he has or hasnt done. I know he surfaces in many leagues and talks. I dont know him well enough to call him mentally disturbed.

Mentally disturbed may be a little strong, although he did have a bizarre obsession with the UIF.

Now shyster, con artist, and generally despicable human being....that might be a better characterization.

[rams80]

All I am saying is if you dont believe that I have been to the top level of football, place a wager on it so I can prove you wrong. I am totally on the level. Are you? You called me out, I can prove where I have been. Can you?

So who are you? I've got some guesses, but I'm not going to put anything in text on the off chance I'm wrong.

[IndoorExpert]

So who are you? I've got some guesses, but I'm not going to put anything in text on the off chance I'm wrong.


Just another concerned football administrator. I dont need to say who I am unless someone wants me to discredit there poor assumptions. Disagreements are common and healthy, but some people enjoy calling others out because they havent got a clue. I just dont stand for people like that. I love to debate but no need to go as far as some go, I just have no respect for people who can dish it out but cant take it.

[IndoorExpert]

I guess I should have played golf today after all..............

[exit322]

Jim has just about every classic case of bipolar that exists. My disagreements with him are well-documented, but when he's not in his manic phase I even like him a little bit.

[cRUSHer]

[QUOTE=IndoorExpert;65348]
"All I am saying is if you dont believe that
I have been to the top level of football,
place a wager on it so I can prove you wrong."

isn't using this board for gambling purposes
against the Terms Of Service? I'd bet it is. :mrgreen:


"I am totally on the level."

depends who you ask

"Are you? "

yep:cool:

"You called me out,"

pffffff.... you called yourself out. :lol:

"I can prove where I have been."

okay ... go for it.

"Can you?"

my alibi is airtight.;)

[IndoorExpert]

I bet your alibi IS airtight....................

[IndoorExpert]

Crusher, maybe you can push to get me banned so you can eliminate all those that stand up to you and the like. I would be SO sad. I would be SO CRUSHED.

[preeths]

Okay, let's get back on topic. If you still have something to say to each other, take it to PMs.

[nksports]

I have no idea what he has or hasnt done. I know he surfaces in many leagues and talks. I dont know him well enough to call him mentally disturbed or say he took advantage of someone.

So far, I've just been reading this thread with bemusement, but I can keep silent no longer. To Preeths, I hope I'm not over the line on this one. I try to stay on the right side of the line. Furthermore, while I've met a few people in the indoor football business in the last couple of years, I'm no definitive expert. Then again, I've learned a few things.

Saying that, (and taking into consideration that I don't know what the actual mental state of JT, I'll leave that to mental health professionals) anyone who doesn't know who JT was and what JT did really can't be calling themselves an indoor expert.

The whole problem with the sport in general is too many JTs and CSs and CGs and Howard whatever his name is this week have burned so many people, it's put every franchise in every league under a microscope in a business that already has a low profit margin and is a lot of risk.

From where I'm at geographically, I've had glimpses into the af2, the APFL and the NIFL (slightly from afar its a little over 100 miles from where I'm at to Enid). I've seen a pro team play a schedule of semipro opponents as an independent. Soon, probably and hopefully, I will see what UIF is all about.

All of the leagues (except the NIFL) have some positive aspects. They have some negative aspects. They have some challenges. They have some lovers and they have some haters.

I don't know DC, but I feel like the UIF is a good fit for the team in this area (Wichita). Indoor football has been such a roller coaster ride in this area, either it's going to work and be successful, or it is going down in flames.

[IndoorExpert]

So far, I've just been reading this thread with bemusement, but I can keep silent no longer.

Saying that, (and taking into consideration that I don't know what the actual mental state of JT, I'll leave that to mental health professionals) anyone who doesn't know who JT was and what JT did really can't be calling themselves an indoor expert.

The whole problem with the sport in general is too many JTs and CSs and CGs and Howard whatever his name is this week have burned so many people, it's put every franchise in every league under a microscope in a business that already has a low profit margin and is a lot of risk.

From where I'm at geographically, I've had glimpses into the af2, the APFL and the NIFL (slightly from afar its a little over 100 miles from where I'm at to Enid). I've seen a pro team play a schedule of semipro opponents as an independent. Soon, probably and hopefully, I will see what UIF is all about.

Indoor football has been such a roller coaster ride in this area, either it's going to work and be successful, or it is going down in flames.

Here we go again. Another person looking from the outside in and not the other way around.

Jim Terry has been around for awhile. Does his internet radio show, and tried to start another fledgling league (EIFL). His punishment, the league didnt work and people talked about him all over the country. Do I consider that a horrible thing, NO. Do I agree with some of his business practices, NO. Is he to blame for indoor football's demise, NO. I find his show entertaining and a few years ago I went on his show a couple times. It was entertaining and at times funny. I still catch his show and I still at times find it funny.

The expert comment has gotten old. Its played out. Preeths, how can you change the poster name on here so I can change it? If we are to take every poster name serious, then I laugh heavily at half of the names on here. I have had the courage to be in the business. That being said, please just stay a fan? Support a team and leave the insider things to those in the business that want it to succeed, not talk about every person that failed. Why do so many people only put people down after they fail? How many people have either failed in their life, or sat on the sideline scared to take the risk? I dont agree with a lot of what has happened to indoor football. Can you place all of the blame on the Jim Terry's, Carolyn Shiver's, Cleveland Gary's, NO YOU CANT. Bad business has been done long before these individuals and will continue long after they are gone. Minor league sports is a tough business and I am sure that when these individuals started in the business, they did not hope to make all of the mistakes that has happened. Other peoples mistakes has paved the way for others to prosper (UIF). So if you think the UIF will be a good fit in your area, thank those who made mistakes before them. Without the NIFL you wouldnt of seen a team in Enid. Be thankful and build the sport up. That would be a great fan.

[preeths]

But that's part of what you sign on for when you become a sports administrator. You become a public figure of sorts, and you have to expect fans to second-guess your moves. As the customers, they have that right. Like losing privacy goes hand-in-hand with being a movie star, it's part of the job.

[exit322]

The blame for the EIFL can be placed squarely on Jim's shoulders, as if "manic Jim" wouldn't have gotten into the way I think that league would still be here as a low-end APFL-style league.

The blame for the NIFL can be placed squarely on Shiver's and Gary's shoulders (but I'll say more Shiver than Gary).

The sport? It's hard to place universal blame on anyone because so many people have screwed up so many things in this sport.

As for those markets that have failed...Enid, especially in hindsight, can be placed squarely on LaMunyon for being an abysmal owner. I won't ever blame the fans for a team failing, because I've rarely ever seen any situation where it's their fault. It's a battle for the entertainment dollar, and way too many teams think they can put turf and pads down with a team and that's all it takes to entertain fans. Um, no.

[preeths]

Yes, exit, and that's been a huge part of the problem. I don't believe bad owners deserve pats on the back for bringing football to so many communities. At the same time, they left countless vendors, sponsors and service providers with unpaid bills due to their poor or nonexistent business plans. They've entertained some for a few hours, and left many facing real financial hardship, burning markets in the process. Communities have been hurt when venues haven't been paid. Ticket holders have been burned with tickets to unplayed games. Some owners have even left badly injured players to fend for their own medical bills. Minor league sports is a hard business, but that's all the more reason why it should only be entered with a great deal of forethought and planning.

[IndoorExpert]

But that's part of what you sign on for when you become a sports administrator. You become a public figure of sorts, and you have to expect fans to second-guess your moves. As the customers, they have that right. Like losing privacy goes hand-in-hand with being a movie star, it's part of the job.

I can respect the analogy here, but like I said, no one goes into business to make a complete fool of themselves. I knew Carolyn for a long time and she had some great intentions and good ideas. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way she stopped caring. She did make a slew of money though over the years. Isnt that what businesses priority is normally? Many companies get what they can and then shut down shop. I DO NOT agree with what she did to the NIFL, but she also isnt the only league to make mistakes. Her media frenzy just damned her to the point of no return. Doesnt she deserve some credit for having a league and SURVIVING a few years? Isnt her mistakes the other leagues gain?

[exit322]

Yes, her mistakes are other leagues' gain, but I don't really know that any have taken advantage (sure, the AIFA got Wyoming and Fayetteville, but they're already two months behind the "look, you need to have your crap together" date for all of the west teams).

[preeths]

Whatever the intentions and ideas, it is the execution that matters in the end. The NIFL's mistakes earned what little media attention they received. Shiver may have made money over the years, but if she made anything from indoor football, I'd love to see those numbers. So would a bunch of creditors.

I don't believe anyone should be crucified for their mistakes, but that doesn't mean they can't be analyzed and criticized for them. Indoor football as a whole needs to learn from the mistakes and stop making the same ones (underfinanced owners, poor expansion choices, etc.) sooner rather than later.

[IndoorExpert]

Yes, exit, and that's been a huge part of the problem. I don't believe bad owners deserve pats on the back for bringing football to so many communities. At the same time, they left countless vendors, sponsors and service providers with unpaid bills due to their poor or nonexistent business plans. They've entertained some for a few hours, and left many facing real financial hardship, burning markets in the process. Communities have been hurt when venues haven't been paid. Ticket holders have been burned with tickets to unplayed games. Some owners have even left badly injured players to fend for their own medical bills. Minor league sports is a hard business, but that's all the more reason why it should only be entered with a great deal of forethought and planning.

I can agree with a lot of what you are saying. That is what doomed the NIFL was Carolyn accepting anyone without a business plan or the finances but had some money to give her upfront. These are the type of people that have plagued the sport and make it harder for everyone else. The Leagues responsibility is to get financial statements, get letters of credit, and make sure a team has a business plan. It is then the Leagues job to assist these individuals in anyway possible so they can succeed. This is not happening in most leagues. How is it that police officers and hot tub salesman have been approved for teams?

Owners need to put there teams in a league that does these things. If not, you cant just blame the league. Potential owners need to require the same information from these leagues. Do your research, require the leagues financial statements, talk to other owners. You cant cry wolf if you yourself didnt make a good investment. Its like the investor that kills his broker after he loses a bunch of money. Be careful what you do with your money.

I certainly dont think the type of owners you are talking about deserve a pat on the back. Its the owners that have done decent business, made all of their games, and kept relatively professional. Then they either want out or want to change leagues to save money. These individuals deserve the pat on the back and deserve not to be second guessed. There isnt a lot of profit in this business, and a shelf life for owners who do it right and dont see a profit is a few years. Give them some credit, most do it for the love of the game. On the other hand, the football dream, is live and well. Some individuals think if they have one press release of a new team, they will have every seat in the house filled. These are the type of people that end up killing off cities. There is good and bad in every walk of life. I just dont understand stereotypes.

[IndoorExpert]

Whatever the intentions and ideas, it is the execution that matters in the end. The NIFL's mistakes earned what little media attention they received. Shiver may have made money over the years, but if she made anything from indoor football, I'd love to see those numbers. So would a bunch of creditors.

I don't believe anyone should be crucified for their mistakes, but that doesn't mean they can't be analyzed and criticized for them. Indoor football as a whole needs to learn from the mistakes and stop making the same ones (underfinanced owners, poor expansion choices, etc.) sooner rather than later.


Yes, analyzed is a great way of putting it. We SHOULD analyze all of the problems and make sure not to repeat the mistakes of the past. That is why history is considered curriculum. We can only hope that everyone else shares this approach.

[rams80]

I can respect the analogy here, but like I said, no one goes into business to make a complete fool of themselves. I knew Carolyn for a long time and she had some great intentions and good ideas. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way she stopped caring. She did make a slew of money though over the years. Isnt that what businesses priority is normally? Many companies get what they can and then shut down shop. I DO NOT agree with what she did to the NIFL, but she also isnt the only league to make mistakes. Her media frenzy just damned her to the point of no return. Doesnt she deserve some credit for having a league and SURVIVING a few years? Isnt her mistakes the other leagues gain?

She deserves as much credit as Joe Newman does for the continued survival of the ABA. The fact is, thanks mainly to the disasters of the NIFL, most arenas will only take the af2 or nothing at all. As the af2 financial model isn't really suited to smaller markets, that means she is effectively depriving multiple markets of football. As for the mistakes being other leagues' gain, that's only the case if they actually learn from them. The AIFA and CIFL have yet to adequately demonstrate that that is the case.

[exit322]

THANK YOU rams80. They have not at all demonstrated this is the case.

You have to blame the league owners for the failures of the leagues AND the failures of the teams (that's just how it is as they're supposed to also be the regulatory agency). That said, you also have to blame the owners for jumping into these leagues in the first place. The WIFL failed because of the egos of their owners coupled with the fact that it's hard to compete with "cheap." And the AIFA gives you "cheap."

To get back on topic...the UIF has that same problem. They're too expensive for their eastern teams, what with the CIFL and AIFA costing much less in fees (or nothing if the CIFL keeps up their stellar policing efforts). I'm not saying they shouldn't be charging the higher price, as I think the higher price does help get better owners in general. But it's an issue they'll have to deal with for awhile while the other leagues fall apart.

[preeths]

I can agree with a lot of what you are saying. That is what doomed the NIFL was Carolyn accepting anyone without a business plan or the finances but had some money to give her upfront. These are the type of people that have plagued the sport and make it harder for everyone else. The Leagues responsibility is to get financial statements, get letters of credit, and make sure a team has a business plan. It is then the Leagues job to assist these individuals in anyway possible so they can succeed. This is not happening in most leagues. How is it that police officers and hot tub salesman have been approved for teams?

Owners need to put there teams in a league that does these things. If not, you cant just blame the league. Potential owners need to require the same information from these leagues. Do your research, require the leagues financial statements, talk to other owners. You cant cry wolf if you yourself didnt make a good investment. Its like the investor that kills his broker after he loses a bunch of money. Be careful what you do with your money.

Agreed. We're on the same page. Both the leagues, which constantly make compromises to increase their numbers, and the bad owners, who don't have the cash or business plans to do the job correctly, deserve their shares of the blame.

I certainly dont think the type of owners you are talking about deserve a pat on the back. Its the owners that have done decent business, made all of their games, and kept relatively professional. Then they either want out or want to change leagues to save money. These individuals deserve the pat on the back and deserve not to be second guessed. There isnt a lot of profit in this business, and a shelf life for owners who do it right and dont see a profit is a few years. Give them some credit, most do it for the love of the game. On the other hand, the football dream, is live and well. Some individuals think if they have one press release of a new team, they will have every seat in the house filled. These are the type of people that end up killing off cities. There is good and bad in every walk of life. I just dont understand stereotypes.

I think some owners definitely deserve second-guessing in many cases, particularly when their decisions involving league choice boil down to choosing the cheapest alternative and hoping for the best. Worse yet is making choices based upon personality conflicts.

[cRUSHer]

Yes, exit, and that's been a huge part of the problem. I don't believe bad owners deserve pats on the back for bringing football to so many communities.

Exactly .

Only the af2 apologists give credit for disasters
like Ft Wayne with weak excuses like ..."duh hey
at least you had another year of football".

As is af2 is real football.

[cRUSHer]

Okay, let's get back on topic. If you still have something to say to each other, take it to PMs.

Fine with me preeths.

But the Mr Know It All STILL hasn't proven
that he is anything more than a message
board troll on a FANS board.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

[IndoorExpert]

Fine with me preeths.

But the Mr Know It All STILL hasn't proven
that he is anything more than a message
board troll on a FANS board.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

Talk about Mr Know It All, the king troll of them all. Give us some fan insight Mr Cut and Paste.

Time to leave it alone, im just saying...............

[IndoorExpert]

She deserves as much credit as Joe Newman does for the continued survival of the ABA. The fact is, thanks mainly to the disasters of the NIFL, most arenas will only take the af2 or nothing at all. As the af2 financial model isn't really suited to smaller markets, that means she is effectively depriving multiple markets of football. As for the mistakes being other leagues' gain, that's only the case if they actually learn from them. The AIFA and CIFL have yet to adequately demonstrate that that is the case.


The NIFL wasnt always a disaster. I had a great period of time within the league. I also enjoyed the IFL, and the IPFL, and the PIFL, and they all had their share of downfalls. Bad business started before the NIFL and I believe much worse news will come out of another league. Wait and see.

So what people in indoor football deserve any credit?

[cRUSHer]

[QUOTE=IndoorExpert;65578]Talk about Mr Know It All,
the king troll of them all. QUOTE]

Yes I was talking about YOU.

You see the King Of Trolls EVERY time
you check the mirror.

LMAO

[rams80]

The NIFL wasnt always a disaster. I had a great period of time within the league. I also enjoyed the IFL, and the IPFL, and the PIFL, and they all had their share of downfalls. Bad business started before the NIFL and I believe much worse news will come out of another league. Wait and see.

So what people in indoor football deserve any credit?

The people who sensed the problems that were growing in the NIFL, and while they didn't go about it the best way, had the sense to get out. The people who don't routinely choose not to learn from past mistakes and instead continue with "business as usual".

[IndoorExpert]

[QUOTE=IndoorExpert;65578]Talk about Mr Know It All,
the king troll of them all. QUOTE]

Yes I was talking about YOU.

You see the King Of Trolls EVERY time
you check the mirror.

LMAO


Weak and childish. I will be in Chicago on business in a few weeks, lets talk then. Send me a private message.

[cRUSHer]

Weak and childish. .

Yes, but we've seen you cannot help yourself.

[cRUSHer]

I will be in Chicago on business in a few weeks,
lets talk then.

hmmmm.. I dunno'.
Back in second grade(1971) officer friendly told
me to never talk to strangers.

(yes , I know where to place emphasis ...dont I ?)

... on the other hand , if you have candy
or movie tickets ...maybe we can hammer some
sort of arrangement out.

(hey Bruiser ...how'm I doin'? :twisted: )

anyway ... I'll goof around with you later
I gotta' watch my BILLS get their you know
what handed to them.

LET'S GO BUFFALO !
LET'S Go BUFFALO !
LET'S Go BUFFALO !

I WILL be in Orchard Park for the Miami game:evil:

[The Abyss]

So indoor expert is some form of digruntled former football coach is my guess? From where though perhaps Rockford or Ohio Valley(nah has good grammar) where then?

[cRUSHer]

So indoor expert is some form of digruntled former football coach is my guess? From where though perhaps Rockford or Ohio Valley(nah has good grammar) where then?

well nahhhh ... on coach Richards too.
He's WAY too much a class act to vent
his bitterness on fans.

Especially me, I gladly drove 90 miles
one way to support the Raptors and
see The Premier League LIVE !
(TC is my myspace friend)

There's no way hose "A" that I would spend
dime one on a `syphll' game. Let alone do
a 180 mile round trip for home games.
So we were both burned by Lowe , not the PL.

That is why Indork Expert is not Coach Richards.
Coach Richards is a winner , winners don't whine.

We've scanned the east ,
maybe we need to look west for coach that
didn't deliver as expected.

[IndoorExpert]

well nahhhh ... on coach Richards too.
He's WAY too much a class act to vent
his bitterness on fans.

Especially me, I gladly drove 90 miles
one way to support the Raptors and
see The Premier League LIVE !
(TC is my myspace friend)

There's no way hose "A" that I would spend
dime one on a `syphll' game. Let alone do
a 180 mile round trip for home games.
So we were both burned by Lowe , not the PL.

That is why Indork Expert is not Coach Richards.
Coach Richards is a winner , winners don't whine.

We've scanned the east ,
maybe we need to look west for coach that
didn't deliver as expected.

As usual, you are way off based. Like you said, you are a nut cracker. Keep busting balls, literally. You try to be funny to avoid saying anything intelligent (probably cant). The queen of the class clowns.

[cRUSHer]

so what you're saying is you've never
coached/administrated at say ... Black Hills ?

don't be afraid ... answer the question .

[rams80]

As usual, you are way off based. Like you said, you are a nut cracker. Keep busting balls, literally. You try to be funny to avoid saying anything intelligent (probably cant). The queen of the class clowns.

Unfortunately, I'm prone to skepticism, so unless you tell me who exactly you are, I'm not prone to trust you when you say you are this nebulous former or current indoor football administrator. A name would be nice.

[cRUSHer]

...but I think he's coming on to me.:eek:
he called me "queen" ... weak ....oh so very.

[IndoorExpert]

Well why dont we all just use our real names instead of poster names. It would sure clear up the real from the fake. Who is talking about trust? Most of the opinions are just that, OPINIONS. Trust is not what I think about when reading some of the opinions here.

[IndoorExpert]

Unfortunately, I'm prone to skepticism, so unless you tell me who exactly you are, I'm not prone to trust you when you say you are this nebulous former or current indoor football administrator. A name would be nice.

Are you saying that you should be trusted as an indoor football expert? Do you think your insight might be skeptical?

[exit322]

Well why dont we all just use our real names instead of poster names.

My name's Josh Stein, as most people that have read this board already knew.

[rams80]

Are you saying that you should be trusted as an indoor football expert? Do you think your insight might be skeptical?

I've never presented myself as having any additional bona fides than just being a fan of the game, which I am. (That and a college student.) For the purposes of this exercise, you can call me Adam though....

Since you played the "football administrator" card, it would be nice for us to know who you are and by extension which teams you were involved with.

[IndoorExpert]

I've never presented myself as having any additional bona fides than just being a fan of the game, which I am. (That and a college student.) For the purposes of this exercise, you can call me Adam though....

Since you played the "football administrator" card, it would be nice for us to know who you are and by extension which teams you were involved with.

After going back through your post thread, you seem to have a strong opinion that you pawn off as fact. Go back through your posts one more time. A fan doesnt pretend to know the extent of indoor football. A fan tells us their favorite teams and what they think could improve in their community.

[AllAces]

Indoor - Sorry for not posting a response to your attack earlier, but I am not here every day.

You missed my point about your claim to be at the top level. My point was it is irrelevant. I never accused you of not being at the top of the game. Instead I was trying to make the point that being at the top does not make you credible. Just like CS, CG and Howard Neil are not credible people.

That being said, I think that sometimes insiders can't see the forest for the trees. They get so wrapped up in insider business and day to day, that they think no one else can possibly have a good idea or know what is happening. They get defensive and close thier minds.

Sometimes the best view is from afar and that view can prompt some good, outside-the-box, ideas. That is what you will see here. Not all of those ideas are good ones. But, occasionally someone hits it on the head.

You challenged me to tell what I have done for the game. That is not important. Instead, I would rather let my opinions stand on their own. Sometimes I hit it and sometimes I get corrected (aggressively). But my credibility comes from my opinions, not what I have done outside this forum. You should stop trying so hard to force your credibility on everyone and let it come naturally. That is the only way to get respect.

[rams80]

After going back through your post thread, you seem to have a strong opinion that you pawn off as fact. Go back through your posts one more time. A fan doesnt pretend to know the extent of indoor football. A fan tells us their favorite teams and what they think could improve in their community.

Is that what you honestly think? Don't you think it's possible for people to pick up enough information over time to actually understand how this works without ever owning a team? Your reasoning is kind of like the "You weren't President of the United States, so you can't criticize him" school of reasoning. I've seen a fair amount, so I think that I can know a little more about indoor football than just what my favorite team is.

[Freedom]

Well why dont we all just use our real names instead of poster names.

Mr. Wolf - Never owned, operated or worked for an indoor team / league.

[AllAces]

I believe there is a national trend that running an indoor franchise is becoming more expensive than the income will allow - generally. Even in some of the biggest markets, a franchise must spend well more than they can make in order to get a team started, in hopes that will reverse once they get off the ground.

However, what they find is once they start reducing costs so they can become profitable, they start loosing their fan base amongst criticism that they are becoming less professional or because they believe that quality has been compromised. You see it here on this board.

Reality is; these are not usually independently wealthy people. Instead they are people who are trying to make a meager profit and follow a dream. Some just want to bring something to their communities. But if the franchise cannot support itself or make some profit, they are destine for a quick failure.

Those that are from independently wealthy people don't last because they don't make money. Wealthy people would rather focus their attention on something that does make them money. Besides, who needs all the stress of routinely changing leagues and/or fighting with league representatives for an enterprise that only has a meager return?

Of course, there are exceptions to this; but not many. This sport may end up being limited to the larger cities - but there is more competition in those markets. Plus, the larger the market, the higher the league and the expenditures.

I enjoy this sport immensely, but I am worried that no one has come up with a universally successful plan (for a league or a franchise). I also agree with Indoor that there are too many unscrupulous people out there who are actively placing nails in the coffin, long term.

[IndoorExpert]

Indoor - Sorry for not posting a response to your attack earlier, but I am not here every day.

You missed my point about your claim to be at the top level. My point was it is irrelevant. I never accused you of not being at the top of the game. Instead I was trying to make the point that being at the top does not make you credible. Just like CS, CG and Howard Neil are not credible people.

That being said, I think that sometimes insiders can't see the forest for the trees. They get so wrapped up in insider business and day to day, that they think no one else can possibly have a good idea or know what is happening. They get defensive and close thier minds.

Sometimes the best view is from afar and that view can prompt some good, outside-the-box, ideas. That is what you will see here. Not all of those ideas are good ones. But, occasionally someone hits it on the head.

You challenged me to tell what I have done for the game. That is not important. Instead, I would rather let my opinions stand on their own. Sometimes I hit it and sometimes I get corrected (aggressively). But my credibility comes from my opinions, not what I have done outside this forum. You should stop trying so hard to force your credibility on everyone and let it come naturally. That is the only way to get respect.

I can agree with a lot of what you are saying. I dont only put my interests into indoor football. I love the sport but it is not my only focus. I am involved with another level right now.

In my perfect world, I will put a team in Southern California. If a solidified indoor league other than the af2 reaches California, I will have my wish. I am not sure at this point it will happen though. What league has that kind of stability, that I would sink that much money into. If it doesnt happen by 2009, I will be just a fan, and you will never hear me talk of the business from an insiders voice again. I will continue my participation at another level.

[Freedom]

How is it that other minor league sports (hockey seems comparable) get by? Do the minor league hockey teams suffer much the indoor football teams? I'm asking because I really don't follow hockey, but equipment, team size, venues and risks to players all seem somewhat comparable. What makes the costs of indoor football so prohibitive to a team success? Is this happening in other minor league sports as well or is just indoor football?

Just some thoughts from anyone please, being an expert is optional. . . . :D

[exit322]

I'd say longevity in the other sports has helped a bunch. How long have the Komets been around? Indoor football just played its tenth season.

[Billings Bill]

Hello,
"Freedom" brings up an interesting thought comparing Indoor Football with Hockey....Hockey has two advantages.....Many/not all hockey teams get money from or are owned by a major league club. But I think the bigger advantage is that they play 4 times as many home games as Indoor Football.
I understand that there are costs involved in playing that many games...but there are more chances to run promotions..and have a good draw. Right now a UIF Team will play 7 or 8 home games....If the weather is bad for one game and another game is scheduled on a day like Easter Sunday...then the team will only have 5 or 6 games left.
I also feel "Exit 322" raised a good point on how long hockey has been established in The U.S.
I am not an expert...just checking in with some thoughts....
Billings Bill:)

[Sykotyk]

Thing is, hockey and baseball both have, over a long time, developed a strategy for new teams based on what 'works'. Baseball slowly morphed the NAPBL which is what now is Minor League Baseball and, at least for the affiliated leagues/teams, have autonomy from the government and anti-trust law.

Hockey is much more 'niche' and the NHL and it's flow of money from the AHL to ECHL/CHL level has tended to keep it on an even kiel.

As for success, there's failures in minor league sports all the time. Sometimes a market just grows 'cool' to a team. They're no longer 'new', 'in', 'hip' or whatever have you. Sometimes a great team with a huge fan base may languish in failure year after year only to watch their once strong fan base wither away and nothing much to do to bring them back. Sometimes a market just will not ever work. No matter how much you work at it or how much money you sink into it.

But the biggest issue is that baseball and hockey have long established clubs that have fan bases and even through lean years have made it work. And that example is used again and again, plugged into every new market's situation.

Indoor/arena ball doesn't have that. They don't even have a major league atop of them feeding down the fan support, talent, management expertise to make it work. It's a fly-by-night hit-or-miss proposition that will see the 20-30-40% failure rate every year.

Sykotyk

[cRUSHer]

My name's Josh Stein,
as most people that have
read this board already knew.

Josh , I already knew who you were.:cool:

In case anyone doesn't know , J-man has
an encyclopedic like knowledge of the
history of the great sport Indoor Football.
AND ...is a master of the practical joke.;)

Adam , the great cynic.

Mr. Wolf...Loves His FREEDOM.

dang ... I know a lot of peoples names ,jim, paul, ted,fred,
jeff,jeremy,chris,sterling,rob,bruce,nancy ... and many more
all from the boards that my insufficient coffee level
has precluded me from being cognizant of. sorry.

and everybody knows me from the man who invented
Arena Football, to (the notorious)malepig.

[cRUSHer]

But the biggest issue is that baseball and hockey have long established clubs that have fan bases and even through lean years have made it work. And that example is used again and again, plugged into every new market's situation.

Indoor/arena ball doesn't have that. They don't even have a major league atop of them feeding down the fan support, talent, management expertise to make it work. It's a fly-by-night hit-or-miss proposition that will see the 20-30-40% failure rate every year.

Sykotyk

Yes and espn was being mighty generous when they labeled
the AFL "The Fifth Major" a few years back instead of
a more realistic thing like Pro Footballs `AAA' .

A major market,talent rich, Indoor Football league would rule.:cool:

I don't think the AFL can become a major league unless
it amends it's rules to play more like NFL football and
thereby gain wider acceptance.
Free substitution is a good start , but not enough.

John Elway , Jerry Jones and some NFL cronies
should start their own high profile Indoor Football league.
(or buy UIF and pull an IFL to af2 type switch only more upscale)
I'd be the first in line(well...maybe not first, but 1st few thousand)

[AllAces]

How is it that other minor league sports (hockey seems comparable) get by? Do the minor league hockey teams suffer much the indoor football teams? I'm asking because I really don't follow hockey, but equipment, team size, venues and risks to players all seem somewhat comparable. What makes the costs of indoor football so prohibitive to a team success? Is this happening in other minor league sports as well or is just indoor football?

Just some thoughts from anyone please, being an expert is optional. . . . :D

It seems to me that hockey fans want to come watch hockey. But indoor football fans want/need a show. What seems to be the recipe for success is the show. If you can afford to fill all the pre-game, media timeouts and halftime, with fast paced entertainment, you keep the crowd in it (example: Casper - They focus on the show and fill in the rest with the game). If you have week intermissions, the momentum starts to decrease and the crowd is only moderately entertained over all, no matter how good the game.

As much as you think it would, the play itself is not enough to keep the pace.

I like hockey but haven't been to too many games. But, think about it; they only have a zamboni driving around at half time and that seems to be enough for hockey fans...

[Rocky]

But, think about it; they only have a zamboni driving around at half time and that seems to be enough for hockey fans...

But only if they play the zamboni song while the ice is being cleaned. That, and the terribly-catchy "hockey all the time" song. This seems to keep U of A hockey fans amused to no end.

But seriously, you hit it right on the head. I take my family to hockey games, and we don't pay any attention at all to the minor intermission entertainment they do. When we go to an AFL game, we watch that stuff more closely. I'm not sure why, because relay-races aren't that amusing.

[Freedom]

Longevity . . . okay exit, I can see that to a point. Also a big reason I like to see something like crusher mentioned, but I'll touch on that in a minute.

More games = more chances of increased revenue is a decent point. But additional games also translate into additional costs. Staff, pay, travel and so on. Teams need additional revenue without the additional expenses.

I don't buy the entertainment view at all. It may be a valid point, but I'd tend to think that relates more to exit's comments about longevity. Maybe the game isn't as exciting to a casual fan because they don't "know" the game as well? Who knows? . . .

Back to Crushers comments and something Sykotyk touched on. An NFL backed tiered system would be awesome. Especially if money actually trickled down through the ranks to make each level successful. Imagine if you will, the NFL leading the way. Followed by the "I"NFL (Indoor National Football League.) This would be the current AFL level or the equivalent of (AAA baseball). After that, you would have the (double A) level of the INFL which would replace the AF2, UIF, IFL, AIFA and other such leagues. Finally the third level - (single A) INFL. This replaces anyone left standing.

Yes, it is only a dream. Mostly because the NFL doesn't need any of it. They have college football and it's free.

In the end, teams and leagues need to lower the costs of the games, and find better streams of revenue. I still like to hear more from people about "why" indoor football seems to suffer more than other minor league sports. There have been some good ideas about it so far. I'd also like to know if anyone thinks indoor football is just like all the others.

[preeths]

More games = more chances of increased revenue is a decent point. But additional games also translate into additional costs. Staff, pay, travel and so on. Teams need additional revenue without the additional expenses.

As long as you're making enough to cover your variable costs, those that are specific to games (arena rent, security, etc.), more games help you pay off your fixed costs, those you have regardless of the number of game played (field or ice-making equipment, uniforms, team personnel, etc.).

[Freedom]

I agree preeths. Also see a distinct advantage of getting higher sponsorship dollars when your advertising covers 25-35 homes games vs trying to sell a seven game package.

How is equipment ordering handled for hockey?

I know af2 has most (if not all teams) order their equipment though the league. NIFL even had Fort Wayne do this in season one. Do any of the leagues take this approach as a "cost saving" move for teams instead of another way to make money off the top? Savings could be substantial to the teams through mass ordering, but the leagues I'm familiar with actually jack the prices back up and pocket the difference.

[exit322]

Yeah - there's your issue...leagues jacking up prices and taking the difference.

I know for a fact that companies are willing to give you discounts for some sponsorship - Adams USA gave everyone 2/3s off the retail price on equipment for exclusive GLIFL usage and a banner in every arena. (corrected: the CIFL still uses Adams USA)

[cRUSHer]

... oh Mr Expert

.............................Mr Toplevelofprofootball.....

so what you're saying is you've never
coached/administrated at say ... Black Hills ?

don't be afraid ... answer the question .

:roll: ain't I nice or what ? :mrgreen:

[IndoorExpert]

... oh Mr Expert

.............................Mr Toplevelofprofootball.....

:roll: ain't I nice or what ? :mrgreen:

cRUSHed this is beginning to get like a job answering you, and my hourly or contactual rate is high. Doubt you could afford it. Put your money where your mouth is and I will give you cracks at the autobiography. Plus, tell me how to change the poster name and I will change it and come up with one like yours. I am a little to serious for that, but I will for your perceived message board etiquette.

[hawkeye]

[QUOTE=IndoorExpert;65169]
Crow deserves very little credit and the success of the UIF falls with the owners.QUOTE]

Here's a quote I hear all the time from Dakota..."I'm only a soldier in all of this. I'm not a general. I'm not the guy who makes the rules. I'm just a guy who carries out orders."

I'll make an accurate statement here...Dakota is a great facilitator. He has to deal with each one of these egos. He's the public face of the UIF and he's the one who deals with the media...he's the one who takes the blame when things go wrong...and he should be the one that gets praise when things go right.

No offense...you may be an indoor football expert but you have a lot to learn about how organizations work.

[cRUSHer]

[QUOTE=IndoorExpert;65942]cRUSHed this is beginning to get like a job answering you, and my hourly or contactual rate is high. Doubt you could afford it. Put your money where your mouth is and I will give you cracks at the autobiography.

You have been trying to bait me into gambling
whether your initials are d and/or w or not when using
this board for gaming puposes is an OSC no no.

tsk tsk

[IndoorExpert]

[QUOTE=IndoorExpert;65942]cRUSHed this is beginning to get like a job answering you, and my hourly or contactual rate is high. Doubt you could afford it. Put your money where your mouth is and I will give you cracks at the autobiography.

You have been trying to bait me into gambling
whether your initials are d and/or w or not when using
this board for gaming puposes is an OSC no no.

tsk tsk


I told you before, if you have the power, ban me! If not, I am done talking league information. I will simply stay quiet and look for interesting information that comes around. I just got the information I was waiting for and I have no need to speak on one particular league any longer. Praise goes out to all of those people that fairly and intelligently have contributed to indoor football. Yes, those letters are in my name. Press releases to come soon...........

[hawkeye]

I keep hearing that the sky is falling from various sources and others say that couldn't be farther from the truth. I am hoping to hear something in the days ahead.

I heard Omaha was going dark awhile back and yet I hear they have new ownership.

Offseason...the most wonderful time of the year...if you're into gossip and rumors. :)

[exit322]

They've not been wilder than this year, that's for sure.

[hawkeye]

I'd say the year the teams bolted for the UIF was pretty wild.

[exit322]

Yeah, but it wasn't a surprise. We saw that coming from a mile away (they almost did it the year before!).

[bonkers]

I think the UIF will play with 6 teams for 2008. I see maybe 2 teams changing leagues.

[jjbballfan]

I think the UIF is experiencing the same problems all indoor football has.... its a tough game to sell you have to be in the right market with the right arena lease.... I do have to give the UIF credit though at least there owners were smart enough to call it quits way before the season even begins... if this was another league they would either quit right before the season (like within a week) or start the season and just quit showing up for games in the middle of the season.... I see the UIF moving west.... I could see Casper, Colorado Springs, Boise, and Rapid City all being future posibilities..... The east has the problem with minor league baseball there is countless minor league teams in the Ohio River Valley.... also they were playing in huge arenas that make in hard to make a profit.

[rams80]

Boise to the UIF will not happen. That much I can guarantee.

[Pounder]

Boise to the UIF will not happen. That much I can guarantee.

Do you say that because of McGregor? Size of Bank of America Centre? Are there UIF brass who were IPFL guys or somehow associated with Dick Suess? Or is it just the volatility in this market?

Or something else? That is eminently possible.

[rams80]

Do you say that because of McGregor? Size of Bank of America Centre? Are there UIF brass who were IPFL guys or somehow associated with Dick Suess? Or is it just the volatility in this market?

Or something else? That is eminently possible.

McGregor for one. What happened to Peoria and TV when they tried to leave as reason #2 For what it's worth, the af2 has certainly deterred other teams from leaving by what they did there. I just don't see Boise in the UIF for the foreseeable future.

[Sykotyk]

But Peoria and TV were both giving up their long association to their names. The Burn are a relatively new phenomena. And considering Boise did have true indoor ball for a while, indoor ball can work again, if done right.

If it's a slapped together Peoria situation, it'd be a failure.

Sykotyk

[rams80]

But Peoria and TV were both giving up their long association to their names. The Burn are a relatively new phenomena. And considering Boise did have true indoor ball for a while, indoor ball can work again, if done right.

If it's a slapped together Peoria situation, it'd be a failure.

Sykotyk

They had indoor ball during the IPFL...right? I'm tempted to say that enough time has passed that they have forgotten the indoor rules. Although it's pretty much a moot point. I doubt McGregor will give up the market.

[IndoorExpert]

Hot off the press. More rumors that have materialized. It is well documented that the Ft Collins franchise had some financial problems. Not that the owner doesnt have the money, but he doesnt have the willingness to spend it. He is in real estate where deals quite often double, triple, or even quadruple. The old cliche that build it and they will come didnt work out. The long grind of an indoor football team doesnt seem to sit well with some owners. I know that from experience. Well back to the story............... Anyways, Ft collins all but signed a deal with the AIFA, but backed out at the last minute because the lack of western teams. There was also a rumor yesterday on OSC that talked about Pueblo getting an AIFA franchise. Well you guessed correctly if you thought that the owner of Ft Collins was from Pueblo. Two Utah teams, Wyoming, Ft Collins, and Pueblo came close to having a decent regional situation. Close but no cigar because the AIFA doesnt have their expansion situation organized. Wow, the UIF could of been down to the Ferocious Four. Makes you wonder what 2009 has in store.

For those of you that are sensitive, I am not bashing on the UIF. I report what I hear from those within. I have a whole lot to report soon about the AIFA, so stay tuned...........

[Freedom]

Rumors that almost happened . . . *wow*.

Nice work expert.

[daytonadan]

Does anyone have a spare life for Indoor Expert?

[IndoorExpert]

Does anyone have a spare life for Indoor Expert?

Does anyone have a team for Dan Ryan?

[preeths]

Does anyone have a team for Dan Ryan?

He has one. We'll see all the details a week from today.

[preeths]

Hot off the press. More rumors that have materialized. It is well documented that the Ft Collins franchise had some financial problems. Not that the owner doesnt have the money, but he doesnt have the willingness to spend it. He is in real estate where deals quite often double, triple, or even quadruple. The old cliche that build it and they will come didnt work out. The long grind of an indoor football team doesnt seem to sit well with some owners. I know that from experience. Well back to the story............... Anyways, Ft collins all but signed a deal with the AIFA, but backed out at the last minute because the lack of western teams. There was also a rumor yesterday on OSC that talked about Pueblo getting an AIFA franchise. Well you guessed correctly if you thought that the owner of Ft Collins was from Pueblo. Two Utah teams, Wyoming, Ft Collins, and Pueblo came close to having a decent regional situation. Close but no cigar because the AIFA doesnt have their expansion situation organized. Wow, the UIF could of been down to the Ferocious Four. Makes you wonder what 2009 has in store.

For those of you that are sensitive, I am not bashing on the UIF. I report what I hear from those within. I have a whole lot to report soon about the AIFA, so stay tuned...........

Assuming the report on Colorado is true, isn't the real story not what UIF could have been, but what the AIFA west actually is?

[IndoorExpert]

Rumors that almost happened . . . *wow*.

Nice work expert.

How dumb can you get? When people want out, and the only thing that is stopping them is the travel budget, doesnt look good for the league. If the AIFA adds more teams to the west, what do you think might happen for 2009? Freedom, where do you get your information? From the newspaper that tells the media side of the story. You wish you could get some real information dont you. There are several teams that may shut their doors because of things like this. So these stories are relevant to the state of the game.

[IndoorExpert]

He has one. We'll see all the details a week from today.

Yes, is that by default. Couldnt get the job in Augusta, huh? Yes, I heard about that also............

[IndoorExpert]

Assuming the report on Colorado is true, isn't the real story not what UIF could have been, but what the AIFA west actually is?

Preeths, you are absolutely correct. All I am saying is look at the problems right now. In all leagues. This year is going to be the end of several franchises, but why? Because everyone thinks they can do it better than the next guy. Look at all of these last second jumps to the af2. Do you think that Daytona is going to fair well in the af2? Do you think that all of the teams that lost big in smaller leagues are all of the sudden going to produce larger revenues because they are in the af2? Do you think one person owning several teams will help or hurt the af2? Do you think the AIFA is going to kill off several franchises with the west expansion garbage? The AIFA has called every team in the west and offered them a deal with no franchise fee, including all of the APFL teams. What about the AIFA phantom TV deal? Will Wyoming survive three staright years of bad decision making? How are teams going to enjoy going to Alaska (IFL) for a week each trip? Will that hurt the players that have a job from playing? There are many questions that are being asked such as these.

[IndoorExpert]

I know some of you dont know real from press, but there are people inside several of the leagues that ask me to post information because they are to scared to let their identity be known. I have no problem posting information from credible sources, and dont mind ruffling feathers.

Just wait until next year, for that matter wait until mid-season, lots of surprises coming...............

[Freedom]

How dumb can you get?

Nice question!

The jury is still out, so I'll wait for your next factual rumor that almost happened . . .
If I read it, you'll know I haven't reached my pinnacle.

[rams80]

I know some of you dont know real from press, but there are people inside several of the leagues that ask me to post information because they are to scared to let their identity be known. I have no problem posting information from credible sources, and dont mind ruffling feathers.

Just wait until next year, for that matter wait until mid-season, lots of surprises coming...............

The af2 annexes everyone and ends up killing indoor football in another twenty markets.

Sorry, just had to say that for old times sake...seems apropos.

[preeths]

Yes, is that by default. Couldnt get the job in Augusta, huh? Yes, I heard about that also............

This is below the belt and also grossly inaccurate. I personally know that Dan has had two offers and has turned them both down, one for lack of confidence in the organization and one for a different reason. I'll let you guess which one Augusta was. Know this, the AIFA wanted him in Augusta.

[IndoorExpert]

Does anyone have a spare life for Indoor Expert?

and this is what, dry humor? This comment deserved a response. What you know and what I heard depends on who it came from (perception).

[preeths]

and this is what, dry humor? Why do people feel that personal comments make them cool over the internet?

"He started it," is your defense? Come on. Unless you have stopped breathing, it is quite clear you don't literally need a spare life. Everyone knows that. You, on the other hand, tried to cast doubts about Dan's ability to get a job, or at least the Augusta job. Your information is bad, but not everyone knows that. That's the dirty part that borders on character assassination.

[IndoorExpert]

"He started it," is your defense? Come on. Unless you have stopped breathing, it is quite clear you don't literally need a spare life. Everyone knows that. You, on the other hand, tried to cast doubts about Dan's ability to get a job, or at least the Augusta job. Your information is bad, but not everyone knows that. That's the dirty part that borders on character assassination.

I merely stated that it deserved a response, not "he started it." Why make a comment such as that? Sounds quite childish. Spare life vs. spare team, whats the difference? Unless you know the story, why would anyone think he didnt have the ability to get a job? He obviously has the ability, he has been in the business for awhile. Arent you twisting this a bit?

[preeths]

Difference is exactly as I spelled out above. One is an innocuous comment, while the other is potentially actionable. You know what you meant to infer by the comment, and you were wrong. Far be it from you to admit to it.

[IndoorExpert]

Difference is exactly as I spelled out above. One is an innocuous comment, while the other is potentially actionable. You know what you meant to infer by the comment, and you were wrong. Far be it from you to admit to it.

Preeths, not that you are right, but I apologize for bringing up a topic that brings out so much emotion in you. I should have addressed this to you privately and have done so.

[cRUSHer]

try reading what preeths says as matter of factual
and without any particular emotion.
He's cool as a cucumber .

... this was good...

Wow, the UIF could of been down to the Ferocious Four. Makes you wonder what 2009 has in store.

For those of you that are sensitive, I am not bashing on the UIF. I report what I hear from those within. I have a whole lot to report soon about the AIFA, so stay tuned...........

Ferocious four ... now that's funny. :lol:

[IndoorExpert]

try reading what preeths says as matter of factual
and without any particular emotion.
He's cool as a cucumber .

... this was good...



Ferocious four ... now that's funny. :lol:

I spoke about this privately so I wont speak on it again publicly. Preeths is cool as a cucumber as you say, I have respect for his work. So you like the ferocious four, huh?

[IndoorExpert]

Lets remember that NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB all employ the use of rumors. Rumors are a way to spin PR and keep people interested. Indoor football is no different. If we all only got our information from published sources, we wouldnt know much about life. There is plenty of information behind the scenes that wont be published. You dont have to like the information, but respect it and see if it comes to pass. Only then can you discredit the source.

[jjbballfan]

The one thing that the UIF has going for it that other leagues don't is the fact that there problems don't leave the office and never get down to the players..
You never hear of players not getting paid, teams always show up, teams don't fold in the middle of the year and so on... The problem that is with the UIF is multi pronged. Part of it is economics and travel its expensive to travel when gas/diesel is over $3 gallon, and insurance is as expensive as you know what. But the UIF plays all of its games in venues that are meant for that sport and that are set up for that sport something that other leagues can't do. i know that the UIF hasn't had enough expansion but the NIFL killed a lot of markets for the short term.

[preeths]

You may be right, but I hate that kind of rumor-mongering and generally call people on it if I catch them. That's why you'll notice my tone be a little on the harsh side sometimes. I'm not saying that you or anyone else is doing it here, but part of what I try to do is to go beyond the spin and find out what is really happening and why. It is probably a good thing for any business that not every thought or plan is made public!

[IndoorExpert]

You may be right, but I hate that kind of rumor-mongering and generally call people on it if I catch them. That's why you'll notice my tone be a little on the harsh side sometimes. I'm not saying that you or anyone else is doing it here, but part of what I try to do is to go beyond the spin and find out what is really happening and why. It is probably a good thing for any business that not every thought or plan is made public!

There is a big difference between rumor-mongering and rumors (truths that wont be in the media). I am not a PR guy so I dont spin stories, but I do report things others might not be privied to.

[daytonadan]

That there is life outside indoor football?

[daytonadan]

Preeths, you are absolutely correct. All I am saying is look at the problems right now. In all leagues. This year is going to be the end of several franchises, but why? Because everyone thinks they can do it better than the next guy. Look at all of these last second jumps to the af2. Do you think that Daytona is going to fair well in the af2? Do you think that all of the teams that lost big in smaller leagues are all of the sudden going to produce larger revenues because they are in the af2? Do you think one person owning several teams will help or hurt the af2? Do you think the AIFA is going to kill off several franchises with the west expansion garbage? The AIFA has called every team in the west and offered them a deal with no franchise fee, including all of the APFL teams. What about the AIFA phantom TV deal? Will Wyoming survive three staright years of bad decision making? How are teams going to enjoy going to Alaska (IFL) for a week each trip? Will that hurt the players that have a job from playing? There are many questions that are being asked such as these.


Here are my questions?

1) Who is the fifth Cylon?
2) When will Galctica find Earth?
3) Will Vic Mackey get killed in the final season of the Shield?
4) Why do fools fall in love?

[IndoorExpert]

That there is life outside indoor football?

Yes, I have numerous other ventures. Indoor football being the most entertaining.

[rams80]

Lets remember that NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB all employ the use of rumors. Rumors are a way to spin PR and keep people interested. Indoor football is no different. If we all only got our information from published sources, we wouldnt know much about life. There is plenty of information behind the scenes that wont be published. You dont have to like the information, but respect it and see if it comes to pass. Only then can you discredit the source.

I'm less inclined to respect rumors when they are spread by folks with malicious intent. Just a fyi.

Having a better tone to your posting would work wonders for your credibility.

[Jamie]

I'm less inclined to respect rumors when they are spread by folks with malicious intent.

I'm less inclined to respect rumors from anyone that calls himself an "expert".

FWIW

[IndoorExpert]

I'm less inclined to respect rumors from anyone that calls himself an "expert".

I am less inclined to believe anyone that doesnt even know what an expert is.

[IndoorExpert]

I'm less inclined to respect rumors when they are spread by folks with malicious intent. Just a fyi.

Having a better tone to your posting would work wonders for your credibility.

You will understand soon that there is no malicious intent. I want the business to succeed.

[preeths]

I believe IndoorExpert wants the game to succeed. I have to believe that's why we're all here. We may see some things differently at times, but that's a big part of the fun of these boards.

[IndoorExpert]

When is the UIF going to remove all of the old teams and add the Wild to the website?

[cRUSHer]

I was wondering the same.


....^ see avatar for stunning example of an `expert'.

[The Abyss]

The UIF in the off season always is slower to update that stuff.

[cRUSHer]

I still get a big kick out of the first inaccurate post
of this thread ....

Omaha beef is gone.Wow, this league is going down for the count.Dakota will be fired soon .The league cant affored his salary.

LMAO :p :D :lol:

[exit322]

Hopefully the CIFL can get blanketman to stop making the league look bad, since we all do know what league the guy's with. Some probably even know what team he's with, and who he probably is.

[AllAces]

I still get a big kick out of the first inaccurate post
of this thread ....

Originally Posted by blanketman:
Omaha beef is gone.Wow, this league is going down for the count.Dakota will be fired soon .The league cant affored his salary.

LMAO :p :D :lol:

I am just getting back to the board after some time away and maybe I missed it but: Why am I hearing rumors of Dakota Crow stepping down as commissioner and taking a role with the Omaha team? Is that posted somewhere else? Has anyone else heard this?

[preeths]

It's no rumor. That's what happened. Check our UIF and Omaha pages for the releases.

[blanketman]

I guess the Sprowls family saved the day for the uif. However,to own 2 teams in the uif with limited means is a a risk .This family owns a very small 9 employeed company in carlsbad ,ca. They had total revenue of less than 2 million. Dakota found a place in the uif that helped the other owners not pay his salary.Lets see what happens. Are the sprowls going to continue to own the team in San Diego in 2009?

[preeths]

Um, nice try. I believe your information on the Sprowls family is grossly inaccurate, perhaps purposefully so. SD's reemergence is dependent upon getting more teams in the West.

[blanketman]

Not true. Look it up . He owns a medical supply business in carlsbad.He has 9 employees;those are the facts. I am sure its a fine business.Unless he has massive real estate holdings,which is a possibility in ca, it is a big financial bearing to under go with a business of under 2 million in revenue. As with our situation in the cifl,which we did again, I am not into an owner having more than one interest in any league.It blew up in our face with Ramone Davenport owning 2 teams .There is no reason for it.The af2 situation is a joke because of these kind of shenanigans.Furthermore it provides for competitive advantages of stacking teams.

[rams80]

Not true. Look it up . He owns a medical supply business in carlsbad.He has 9 employees;those are the facts. I am sure its a fine business.Unless he has massive real estate holdings,which is a possibility in ca, it is a big financial bearing to under go with a business of under 2 million in revenue. As with our situation in the cifl,which we did again, I am not into an owner having more than one interest in any league.It blew up in our face with Ramone Davenport owning 2 teams .There is no reason for it.The af2 situation is a joke because of these kind of shenanigans.Furthermore it provides for competitive advantages of stacking teams.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that the af2 situation is a joke, and in regards to stacking teams....all of MacGregor's teams sucked last year, and he doesn't look to be building an all-star team this year.

[blanketman]

If you dont think I am telling the truth google him"robert sprowls carlsbad manta". You will see his profile. While this only brings out his business profile,these are the facts . 9 employees ,including his son,1.6 million in revenue. Maybe he has an inheritance ,or made millions in the market to support these teams. With regards to his business profiles, how am i grossly inaccurate?

[preeths]

Where's the part that says that's his only business? Your incredible preoccupation with UIF continues to amaze me. I await your breakdown of the business holdings for all CIFL owners.

[blanketman]

Listen, you said i was inaccurate about this information. Where? You want to attack on all fronts. You continue to state "the Uif has the best Ownership",then they bring in a first year NIFL owner that takes on 2 teams. I read the articles and did a brief google search.You want to search ownership qualifications in the cifl go ahead. Remember it was you that constantly preaches on this and every thread that the uif has the best ownership.I profiled him where are the other businesses. Not one of his other enterprises were brought up in the 4 articles that i read.

[rams80]

Listen, you said i was inaccurate about this information. Where? You want to attack on all fronts. You continue to state "the Uif has the best Ownership",then they bring in a first year NIFL owner that takes on 2 teams. I read the articles and did a brief google search.You want to search ownership qualifications in the cifl go ahead. Remember it was you that constantly preaches on this and every thread that the uif has the best ownership.I profiled him where are the other businesses. Not one of his other enterprises were brought up in the 4 articles that i read.

You are setting aside that the Shockwave was far and away the best run of the expansion NIFL teams. He knew what he was doing.

[blanketman]

No i am not. I have no problem with the sprowls or their tactics. This father son combination would be fine;however,they are coming into a new league with 2 teams. Not good on any level. We had it with this davenport crackpot. I am not inferring the sprowls are like davenport, but 2 teams is hard to make work.

[Rocky]

blanketman, who *ARE* you? Alot of what you say would mean more if you didn't give off the perception of being a paid employee of a competing league. Are you that?

Weren't you going to leave this board forever if your prediction(s) didn't come true? (UIF done, Crow fired, Omaha done)

Rocky Larson

[Trnr]

You are setting aside that the Shockwave was far and away the best run of the expansion NIFL teams. He knew what he was doing.

Wasn't he the only "real" expansion team. The only team that actually existed.....so I will give you that, they were one of the best expansion teams last year in the NIFL. Way to go, hang your hat on that one and buy two teams because of that experience. But wait, won't he have Dakota helping out in Omaha and Dakota's brother helping in River City. Maybe Sprowls can bring Jamie Lamunyon back into the mix and then we can film a new version of The Three Stooges.

[preeths]

No i am not. I have no problem with the sprowls or their tactics. This father son combination would be fine;however,they are coming into a new league with 2 teams. Not good on any level. We had it with this davenport crackpot. I am not inferring the sprowls are like davenport, but 2 teams is hard to make work.

Then why mention Davenport? Really, even people from your own league are ratting you out because they don't agree with your posts.

[jjbballfan]

what is the second team... there is Omaha that is the only one I know of.... I thought the Shockwave were done.....

[exit322]

They bought RiverCity.

[jjbballfan]

They bought RiverCity.

Thanks..... The little I followed the NIFL last year they were the best ran team period they played all there games they showed up for away games and were a class act..... I have faith in this owner I just hope he doesn't get too overwhelmed running 2 teams.

[preeths]

It is always a concern. One thing that should help them is that they have had GMs in place for several weeks, RC even longer.

[blanketman]

Preeths,I guess you are right. There is no reason for me to be on this forum any longer.Dakota is awesome, you are fantastic, and everybody have a great thanksgiving. Adios

[exit322]

Well, no, there probably isn't. Shouldn't you be worrying about your third arena in three years up there?

[Jamie]

Preeths,I guess you are right. There is no reason for me to be on this forum any longer.Dakota is awesome, you are fantastic, and everybody have a great thanksgiving. Adios

Woo hoo!

I'll alert the press.

[cRUSHer]

[QUOTE=blanketman;64737]Omaha beef is gone.
QUOTE]

To quote Rocky the Flying Squirrel...

"Thank you , Mr. Know-it-all".

:mrgreen::-D :razz: :lol: