Can anyone come up with a list....

[tops804]

.....of STABLE ABA franchises?

Criteria may be: Ownership, Arena, Local Media Coverage, Fan support...I
can't include caliber of play (entertainment value) because even a stable
franchise can be stuck without real opponents.

I have followed this league since it's beginning and can't find much stablilty
in any market..

How old is the oldest franchise?
How many champions returned the next year? Exist today?
How many teams were announced and never played a game, or disappeared
without finishing a season?

[BreakersFan]

Here is my list:

Vermont

[The Magician]

And ... Vermont would be at the top of that list!

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

the oldest continuous franchise is the Heatwave, who have moved once.

The oldest franchise that is still where they started would be Tijuana who have been in at least since 04-05 (my season in the ABA) - Texas suspended a year since then, the Buzz have played in pretty much every city that would take them in the past 3 years, and the Vision spun out of the Georgia Reigning Knights (I think).

[nksports]

As best as I can tell, Tijuana is the oldest team in continued operation (in same city), dating back to the 2003-04 season. The Atlanta Vision is second, starting in the 2004-05 season.

If TJ can finish this season, it would break the record it currently holds with the Kansas City Knights (four seasons).

Most stable franchise — Vermont.
Champions (did they return the next season ?)
00-01 Detroit Dogs yes
01-02 KC Knights (sort of)
02-03 no season (but KC came back for 03-04)
03-04 Long Beach yes
04-05 Arkansas no (went to D-League)
05-06 Rochester yes (but defected for 07-08 )
06-07 Vermont yes

[a1sports]

based on your critera... there are NO top notch franchises in the ABA.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

I would challenge the ABA kitchen cabinet to come up with a comprehensive list of each team that has played at least one game in the league's history.

I would venture to guess that most current professional sports leagues would be able to produce their list - especially leagues that have only been in existence for 7 years.

The 'biggest sports league' mantra is a poor excuse; and just another example of Joe biting off far, far more than he can possibly chew. I'll guarantee the league itself couldn't produce a complete record from just one recent season - 2004-2005, for example.

The league has promised mandatory, comprehensive statistics for three years now (along with mandatory 3-D lights, etc.). ABA promises are like their game balls - full of nothing but hot air...

[skippy]

I don't think Texas and Tijuana could qualify as model franchises because they have both refused to travel/required other teams to tape "game cancelled" notes on the gym doors at different times during there existences.

I think the Vision and the Reigning Knights were both based out of Atlanta at the same time, but not the same franchise. {Remember we are in bizarro world}


My picks are:
Arkansas
Rochester
Vermont
Kansas City {Remember them before Joe threw the Clark guy under the bus}

To me these are the only teams that had all of those requirements in place.

[basketoz]

The league has promised mandatory, comprehensive statistics for three years now (along with mandatory 3-D lights, etc.). ABA promises are like their game balls - full of nothing but hot air...

Lets just say i have heard there is discussions in regards to entire statistical and historical chronology of the league being compiled and being available on the ABA site possibly sometime this season.

I will leave it at that for the time being however...

[besl]

Lets just say i have heard there is discussions in regards to entire statistical and historical chronology of the league being compiled and being available on the ABA site possibly sometime this season.

I will leave it at that for the time being however...

That is physically impossible since much of the time actual statistics were not taken at the game. I've seen the way a lot of ABA teams run their game-day operations, and more often then not, there's nobody taking stats on a computer, and in some cases there isn't even anyone there with a score book.

It's hard to compile an entire statistical database when all you have to go by is "I think Player X scored 35 points... Or maybe it was 36 or 37."

But anyhow... Since you're from Australia maybe you thought we were referring to the Australian Basketball Association?

[Paul S]

Basketoz - Are you the guy who posts on that Australian basketball message board?

I've tried to find it via google, but there is a website called OZBasket or Aussiebasketball or something I came across awhile ago. Some guy basically had a thread that gave a rundown of this entire ABA fiasco. Now because nobody in Australia really knew much about the ABA he started in like 2002 and is still going about 40 posts later all by himself. It sounds kind of lame but it is as accurate an ABA rundown and history as I've ever found.

[besl]

Basketoz - Are you the guy who posts on that Australian basketball message board?

I've tried to find it via google, but there is a website called OZBasket or Aussiebasketball or something I came across awhile ago. Some guy basically had a thread that gave a rundown of this entire ABA fiasco. Now because nobody in Australia really knew much about the ABA he started in like 2002 and is still going about 40 posts later all by himself. It sounds kind of lame but it is as accurate an ABA rundown and history as I've ever found.

This is probably the website and thread you are referring to. It's an excellent source for info about the last few years of the ABA:

http://www.ozhoopsboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=7735

[heavesrock]

Vermont is stable. Beijing is stable(I think)

Atlanta, Tijuana, and the Heatwave have been around for the same amount of time I believe. Atlanta changed their name.

[basketoz]

That is physically impossible since much of the time actual statistics were not taken at the game. I've seen the way a lot of ABA teams run their game-day operations, and more often then not, there's nobody taking stats on a computer, and in some cases there isn't even anyone there with a score book.

It's hard to compile an entire statistical database when all you have to go by is "I think Player X scored 35 points... Or maybe it was 36 or 37."

But anyhow... Since you're from Australia maybe you thought we were referring to the Australian Basketball Association?

No it is the American ABA i refer to, obviously there will be information which is clearly not retreivable due to poor kept records and incomplete data being monitored as you mention, however where and with whats available the discussions that have been had, will entail the provision of a component on the leagues site for the correlation of historical information.

One would hope this will not only be limited to team, league wide stats, but also player statistics also, however the detail and exact content as you have stated this will all be pending on the access and availability to stats that have been kept and retained.

While there are detractors, and with all due respect quite rightly so, i think that the ABA and in particular the operations staff, are at least attempting and accepting to ideas to improve the public perception of the league, while maintaining a credible content for referance, to fans, media and researchers alike.

I am and have been a sceptic personally and have based my thoughts and opinions on various information i have read, through blogs and media services, however i do feel the attempts and open minded approach being presented by the likes of Brad Hester, deserves some acknowledgement.

I may be a idealist and perhaps naive, however feel that if an attempt is made then support should be thrown behind a project of this nature.

[basketoz]

This is probably the website and thread you are referring to. It's an excellent source for info about the last few years of the ABA:

http://www.ozhoopsboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=7735


And yes while i am a member of that site, and have been for sometime, that person is not myself.


However thier detailed posts in regards to the ABA, CBA and NBDL are informative and quite detailed.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

where and with whats available the discussions that have been had, will entail the provision of a component on the leagues site for the correlation of historical information.

One would hope this will not only be limited to team, league wide stats, but also player statistics also, however the detail and exact content as you have stated this will all be pending on the access and availability to stats that have been kept and retained.


Not a chance in Hades that the kitchen cabinet can do this. They don't have the data available to get within 50% of the league's games played - and they absolutely couldn't put together a list of all-time player stats without making up 3/4 of the names and numbers.

[besl]

Not a chance in Hades that the kitchen cabinet can do this. They don't have the data available to get within 50% of the league's games played - and they absolutely couldn't put together a list of all-time player stats without making up 3/4 of the names and numbers.

I would be shocked if the ABA had any box scores or cumulative season statistics for any teams from last season, save for what is available on the individual teams' websites. Last year, teams were instructed to forward their stats after each game to one of Tom Doyle's assistants, so I have a feeling all those e-mails with stats were moved to the recycle bin around March.

[Paul S]

THATS it.

Thanks BESL. That is as good a history of the ABA anywhere.

[tops804]

Vermont, and maybe Tijuana and Beijing is what the ABA would have to build
on...

I have done some more research and don't think a full list of teams could
ever be made. The ABA isn't going to tell us....For instance, I remember
a team announced for Cedar Rapids that fell off the ABA map in less then
a week.

Records...I have to agree are lost forever. I have to wonder if players aren't
picked up on game day whereas the team couldn't even verify a name.
(Not too wise for insurance purposes either)...Is it safe to say that whole
teams would be left out of an ABA stat guide? Numbers certainly would
never balance.

Is it possible for Mr. Newman to make nice with the PBL and hope it's teams
and owners return to the ABA fold. I don't follow the PBL close enough to
know if its on schedule...This may be the only way the ABA can ever survive.
I've said it before...it needs a stable plan.

[Chuck the Writer]

You will never get a complete listing of the 2003-07 ABA statistics. Ever.

And let me tell you why.

When I worked on (and am still working with) the Eastern League statistics, I had to go through hundreds and hundreds of newspaper boxscores. I had to compare each boxscore from two cities on one game, and figure out if a player's surname was Zawoluk or Zalowuk (it's Zawoluk), and whether a player was listed in one newspaper box score but not in another, and divine out which stats were correct and which ones were almost correct.

This of course entailed that every game was listed in at least one newspaper. How much coverage did each ABA franchise get in their cities, other than "crowds of 100 or less watched as home team waited three hours for replacement opponent when previous franchise folded."

Last year, when I brought up the issue of non-existent statistics (and ABA06er tried to argue that because Rochester had a better attendance record, statistics didn't matter), halfway through the season the ABA posted a haphazard Excel spreadsheet that claimed to have the leaders in several statistical categories. That Excel spreadsheet was rarely updated, and I suspect it was about as accurate as a Cleveland Browns quarterback's passes.

As said before, what you've got here is a haphazard rec league (or, to be more appropriate, a community center circuit concentrated continentally, or a "5C League"). Stats? They mean nothing. Won-loss records? Pish-posh, the only thing that matters in the ABA is did the $10,000 check clear and will your team show up if you get ranked in the mysterious "Power Rankings."

[besl]

Records...I have to agree are lost forever. I have to wonder if players aren't
picked up on game day whereas the team couldn't even verify a name.
(Not too wise for insurance purposes either)...Is it safe to say that whole
teams would be left out of an ABA stat guide? Numbers certainly would
never balance.

I think you could probably come pretty close to having something on every team in the league by going off of the box scores of those teams that did keep thorough statistics. But even of the teams that kept good statistics, rarely are they accessible on the team's website.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of Bellingham (http://www.bellinghamslam.com/statistics.htm) and Vermont (http://www.vermontfrostheaves.com/schedule/) as teams that have posted complete box scores on their sites. Looking at the visiting teams, even for one or two games, can at least give a good idea of what their players are doing. But of course, one game does not make a season...