Euro-League Strength chart

[bectond]

Euro-League Strength chart

Top Flight League (players are paid 100,000 a year or more.)

1. Spain ACB (By far the top league in Europe)
2. Italy Series A
3. Greece A1 (teams often sign players for a lot of money but don’t always pay the full amount; players don’t get paid on time either)
4. France Pro A
5. Spain LEB 1 (or D-2)
6. Italy Series B (or D-2)
7. Russia Super League A
8. Israel Premier League
9. German Budesliga
10. Belgium D1
11. France Pro B (or D-2)
12. Turkey TBL
13.Poland DBE
14.Lithuania LKL
15.Croatia A1

Lower Level Leagues (Players are paid about 20,000 a year in these leagues)

• Netherlands
• Finland
• Spain LEB 2 (or D-3)
• Austria
• Portugal
• Sweden
• Hungary
• Denmark
• Switzerland
• Czech Rep
• France D-3
• England
• Cyprus
• Norway
• Ireland
• Iceland
• Italy D-3
• Romania
• Israel D-2

2007-2008 Undrafted Players list
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=5508

2006-2007 Undrafted Players list
http://www.oursportscentral.com/boards/showthread.php?t=4053

[Irving Thomas]

You put Turkey in a too low position..FRance Pro A is at the Germany Bundesliga level...also Spanish LEB is not that high as Italian Lega2 (not Serie B).

[bectond]

You put Turkey in a too low position..FRance Pro A is at the Germany Bundesliga level...also Spanish LEB is not that high as Italian Lega2 (not Serie B).

How many NBA players has the Budesliga produced in the last ten years?
There are plenty of France ballers in the NBA. Plus, in France you get your checks on time and the pay you when your injuried. IMO, From top to bottom the Belgium league is better than the turkish league.

Please provide some supporting evidence on why you feel Lega2 is a better league the LEB-1, we can debate that one. But saying the German league is better than the French league is laughable. Pape Badiane, Ali Traore, Taj Gray, Zabian Dowdell are top flight players. Plus I can count 4 future lottery picks that will be playing in France this year: Rodrigue Beaubois, Ludovea Vaty, Alexis Ajinea and one of next years top three picks Nicolas Batum. It's not contest talent or personel wise.

[Irving Thomas]

What's the main issue you are evaluating these leagues? Paying on time? Sure, french teams could pay on time (not always anyway) but they are paying almost 10 times less than turkish teams or even italian Lega2 teams..

And further... french players? Have you an idea of the times the french national team has been beaten hard by teams like Lithuania, Italy, Spain, Greece and even Russia?

There was a finnish player il this year NBA draft, but Finnland has a semi pro league in its border..look at the teams making the Top16 and the Final 4 of Eurolegue...Spanish, russians, Greek, Israelian..even a team from Germany and Lithuanian...any french team? No... You can't see them, because french level is much below the Euroleague top teams..

Many first round draftees are now warming some bench in Germany or France..because the best players outside NBA goes to the places where salaries are high...and that's not France...I can write you down where you want (I am writing from Italy)..

Many us people try to figure out that Europe could be similar to US coming to pro basketball, but that's not true...there are lots of differences..so not only getting you pay in time makes up the quality of a league...

[bectond]

And further... french players? Have you an idea of the times the french national team has been beaten hard by teams like Lithuania, Italy, Spain, Greece and even Russia?
...

Dude are you trolling? We were discussing which league is better the French Pro A or the Budesliga. You come back with Lithuania this, Italy that, Spain this, Greece that and even Russia. I believe I ranked Spain, Italy and Greece ahead of France. Therefore, I can not debate you because we agree.

I asked why you believe Italy's 2nd division is better than LEB 1.

As far as pay and the overall treatment of players, I believe actually getting paid is more important than a agreed upon figure or $ amount. Teams can say one thing and do another. If one does not get paid, the $ amount is meaningless. German clubs also hold dudes hostage. If the season is over and the player wants to go home, the team should not delay his departure (or pay) so the player can work out vs. guys they bring in for try-outs. That ^%$#% is bogus.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

bectond,
If Irving Thomas (not real name) says the French bite big ones, then you can take it to the bank. Besides, anyone from across the pond (two ponds?) who likes the Steelheads as much as I do, can't be wrong. ;)

Irving,
I just sent you a PM.

[Irving Thomas]

Dude are you trolling? We were discussing which league is better the French Pro A or the Budesliga. You come back with Lithuania this, Italy that, Spain this, Greece that and even Russia. I believe I ranked Spain, Italy and Greece ahead of France. Therefore, I can not debate you because we agree.

I asked why you believe Italy's 2nd division is better than LEB 1.

As far as pay and the overall treatment of players, I believe actually getting paid is more important than a agreed upon figure or $ amount. Teams can say one thing and do another. If one does not get paid, the $ amount is meaningless. German clubs also hold dudes hostage. If the season is over and the player wants to go home, the team should not delay his departure (or pay) so the player can work out vs. guys they bring in for try-outs. That ^%$#% is bogus.


I still ask you, how do you determine a league being better than the other? If you mean "this league is richer than the other and pays better" then it's hard to me tell you which is better. I can tell you France Pro A teams are weaker than Russians and LEB-1 and even Lega2 teams.. You can see that when a player moves from France Pro A he often gets to go in Lega2 or LEB-1 and only a few (the stronger players) get a chance in Russia, Italy Serie A, Greece or Spanish ACB... as for being paid, if you assume that being paid the entire 100$ is better than being paid 800$ out of 1000$ contract...well, we may suggest to some US players to stay home and play for 100$ in USA...I know you might think europeans teams are cheaters about paying, but that's what happens even for the local players.

Anyway I think LEB-1 is a little low Lega2 because the quality of local spanish players is a little low than italians..altough LEB-1 sometimes pays more than Lega2...

[bectond]

O.K. Lets stick to basketball.

Last year, Pau-Orthez finished 9th in the French league. However, they finished 4th in Group C.
In Fact, Pau-Orthez was the only team to beat CSKA Moscow in Group C (I believe Moscow beat the Sixers last year), defeated Naples and they finished with the same record as Benetton Treviso 7-7 ( and a better record than Naples). In the Euroleague semi’s they split with Rome, not bad for a 9th place French team in a league that bites big ones.

[Irving Thomas]

O.K. Lets stick to basketball.

Last year, Pau-Orthez finished 9th in the French league. However, they finished 4th in Group C.
In Fact, Pau-Orthez was the only team to beat CSKA Moscow in Group C (I believe Moscow beat the Sixers last year), defeated Naples and they finished with the same record as Benetton Treviso 7-7 ( and a better record than Naples). In the Euroleague semi’s they split with Rome, not bad for a 9th place French team in a league that bites big ones.

Interesting point...so you mean if Pau Orthez (9th in France) beat Cska Moscow imagine what the Champion of France could do in the NBA as Cska beat one NBA team and was beaten (once in all the season) by the french second tier team? I didn't know this way to scout teams...

Forget about Ncaa system, Euroleague plays its schedule in the same time the teams plays in theyr own national league, it means you could lose one or two games due to fatigue and injuries..but in the end Pau Orthez was far away from the best teams in Europe..as the french league winner (Roanne) had on its roster plenty of players coming from italian Lega2 and even from the british league...

[Irving Thomas]

I can add this to enforce my opinion...Uleb (the organiser of Euroleague) has a chart itself to qualify teams from every single nations..

Italy, Spain have 4 teams qualified
Greece has 3 teams qualified
Lithuania, France and Turkey each has 2 teams

Serbia, Russia, Poland, Slovenia, Israel, Croatia and Germany have one..


I should add the exception is Russia, they only have Cska Moscow in Euroleague but that's because Fiba Europe used to have a concurrente competition (Fiba Europe Cup) where the best teams (except Cska) from Russia played ...

[bectond]

Interesting point...so you mean if Pau Orthez (9th in France) beat Cska Moscow imagine what the Champion of France could do in the NBA as Cska beat one NBA team and was beaten (once in all the season) by the french second tier team? I didn't know this way to scout teams...

..but in the end Pau Orthez was far away from the best teams in Europe..as the french league winner (Roanne) had on its roster plenty of players coming from italian Lega2 and even from the british league...

No, i'm saying that Pau Orthez was better than any German or Lega 2 team.
Their roster included three former NBA players Britten Johnsen, Aaron Miles and Melvin Sanders. Three solid veterans that have played overseas for years CC Harrison, Michael Wright (a former 2rd round pick by NY) and Ricardo Greer. Greer is the British league player you referred to, many people on the East Coast that follow Big East basketball know how good of a player Greer is. Ask anybody from Queens dude can ball, so he played a year in England- I don't get your point on that one.

They also had Ian Mahiami who was the Spurs no.1 draft pick in 2005 and Alexis Ajinca a rail thin 7 footer that will soon join the long list of french players in the NBA. This club is a lot better than you think they were.

In fact, they were one of the top 16 clubs in all of Europe. (Based on the fact that they advanced to the Euroleague semi-finals).


You stated
"You can see that when a player moves from France Pro A he often gets to go in Lega2 or LEB-1 and only a few (the stronger players) get a chance in Russia, Italy Serie A, Greece or Spanish ACB... "

Pau Orthez's best players don't go to Italy or Spain. They move on to the NBA.
Boris Diaw, Mickael Pietrus, Antoine Rigaudeau, Johan Petro along with future pros Mahiami and Ajinca all got their start on Pau Orthez.

[Irving Thomas]

So you are writing the 9th seeded french team is full of NBa caliber players..and, could you please explain to me why a so strong team couldn't win its home national title?

About american college players in Europe, you can find many of them in Europe coming from good US colleges and they don't play that good...they are not big caliber player, just because theyr game doesn't fit for pro basketball. If they were that good, they shoudl be playing in the NBA like the best european players do.

France has produced some good players, and some of them are in the NBA but that means not too much. French national team neve won a gold medal at the european championship despite being often seeded in the first four.

According to you there's no explanation of that..instead the explanation is that one (or two) single player doesn't make up a good team and the level of others players is horrible... Diaw, Petro..sure they can play in the NBA but they can't make the difference in NBA or in Europe..the results are there to prove it. After that you can argue about the 9th team in France to be better than many others in Europe basing on the evaluation of US people about Ricardo Greer (Mr. Nobody in Europe).. but I am sorry, no european guy will tell you that you are right..