ABA vs. PBL

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

I think the affinty on this board for the PBL comes primarily because it isn't the ABA.

Seven years of failed franchises, lawsuits, incomplete seasons and the unwavering obstance of the CEO to put in place any concrete changes to improve the league have framed the ABA as a minor league pinata.

The PBL, made up of (aside from VT) the few teams in the ABA to make any sort of progress as franchises has become the beacon of what a minor league should be. But, they have yet to toss up a ball and play a game.

Now, the ABA has had 7 years and well over 120 teams to put together some semblance of a professional league that commands respect. We are still waiting.

Will the PBL experience growing pains in year one (as most minor leagues do)? Probably. But, I expect that any flaws in the PBL plan will be trumpeted as some sort of 'proof' by ABA06er_Insider that the league is a failure, regardless of past history of most minor leagues.

(An aside, I look forward to ABA06er_Insider's next screen name - ABA_KnowItAll, ABAGood_PBLBad, etc.).

I would put out a challenge to the pro-ABA and pro-PBL groups - at the end of the 07-08 season, what sort of benchmarks do you feel each league msut absolutely meet to have the season declared a success? It doesn't need to be specific (an average of 1,254 fans per game), but it should be what you consider a true indication of a 'professinal' league. Some of my thoughts:

-absolutely EVERY game must be played, excluding weather issues. The league schedule to me is sacred and fundamental to any league. Every ticket sold, promotion planned and sponsorship acquired is worthless if a game isn't played.
-every team MUST have an active, current website
-the league website must provide current stats, schedules, standings, news and relative information 7 days a week, and after every game
-team and league releases should be proof-read by someone with a modicum of training for accuracy, grammar and basic mastery of the English language
-nobody cares about Newman or Doyle's views on the NBA, world events, or their get-rich-quick schemes. Get the league in order, and drop the meaningless fluff (ABA salute, ABA University, etc.)
-FOLLOW THROUGH! If you announce it, do it. If it is in the work, finalize it If you set minimum requirements and they aren't met, pull the plug. If you promise the schedule, ALL-Star game, post-season tournament, then produce it. Otherwise, what little credibility your league earns is crapped away.
-Worry about your own league first, second and last. What happens in another league should have no bearing on your own. If the PBL decides to play with a square basketball, so what? That doesn't affect an ABA team. If the ABA announces that they will play their games with a 5-point shot arc, that won't make the PBL franchise in Somewhere, Arizona any more organized. If the PBL doesn't reveal any information until the day before their season starts, that doesn't make the underfinanced ABA franchises more solvent. Etc.

Feel free to add to the list...

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

after the recent defection of Jax to the PBL.

I have not touted the PBL since, without a track record, nobody knows how strong the league is.

And I am certainly on record as anti-Joe - not the ABA, which I like for a variety of reasons - and his continued history of petulance and stubbon ineptitude.

But regardless of how strong or weak the PBL is, it has absolutely no relation to the ability of the ABA's teams to put together a strong franchise. The ABA and the PBL can both collapse, both succeed, or take completely divergent paths. In the end, the only thing the ABA needs to worry about is its own house - and why, if they have the "best business model in sports - yadda yadda" that teams choose to leave at such a high rate.

The only thing the PBL needs to worry about is its own house - and whether or not they have been all hat and no head with their announced plans for their organizational structure and business plan.

[a1sports]

I agree, If there was no PBL or CBA, the semi pro ABA would still be a dysfunctional "league" . Keep in mind, you had businessmen try to help joe out, he threw them all out. So what did that say to the other owners? Nothing, why, because they are not business men and as for ALex, he has his own self serving agenda, He could play in the XXX league and as long as he made money, he could care less about the rest of the league or the image the league portrays. If the ABA has a season, it will resemble seasons 1-6, and this talk will go on and on...and franchises will come and go and Joe will get his 10k. Again, this is my opinion.

[Paul S]

a1 is right.

In spite of good intentions of others
In spite of smart advice
In spite of good franchises'
In spite of going public and drumming up more cash
In spite of his step-son
In spite of somehow running a 'pro' basketball league spanning 3 countries with an aol email address
In spite of people within basketball pointing out this thing is a disaster
In spite of the NBA who should know better giving him a licensce


Joe will be Joe. He isn't going away. This insane asylum of a league might be closed down, the mental midgets who've invested in this Titanic of all leagues might go broke, the un-informed well meaning people who continue to have promises broken will continue to work.

If it all ends tomorrow and the whole house of cards simply collapses' under its own (and Jalooza's) considerable weight. Joe will be back. Joe is as resiliant a businessman as any of us has ever seen.

Joe will simply open up ABA2009 or ABA3 (Rise of the Machines) or The ABA Ultimatum or the ABA Strikes Back or some other league that will have that unique Joe Newman flair. We will all know almost immediately whats happening but the new victims will be lined up like lemmings.

[misenern]

Has the PBL got their act together? How many days until the season starts? I think their season could be called a success if they establish the PBL brand as a worthy and reliable professional league. They must move away from their ABA roots as fast as possible. The PBL needs credibility, and so far they have done nothing to earn that.

If the ABA makes it through the season it could be called a success. Looks like it will be an interesting year.

[tops804]

If the ABA makes it through the season it could be called a success. Looks like it will be an interesting year.

As a SPORTS LEAGUE:
Not if it's composed of a make-shift schedule, failed franchises, and a so-
called playoff system that doesn't even include the best teams!!!

In Joe'e eyes:
If he's "proud to announce" another expansion team for 08-09, at least one
a week, during the season...Despite the fact that teams are folding around
him in '07-08.

$$$$ 10,000.00 chaaa - ching !!!!!

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

If the ABA makes it through the season it could be called a success.
Depends on your dictionary...

The ABA has ALWAYS made it through the season, in the sense that a season began, games were played, and a champion decided. Now, what started the ABA season never matched what the league ended with (games scheduled, active teams, etc.).

If the goal is to merely stay afloat, then yes, it is a success. But, if the goal is to get rescued or, even better, to build a better boat, then the ABA has been lost at seas for 7 years.

Past performance is no inducation of future results - but sometimes it sure does give a clue...

[misenern]

If the goal is to merely stay afloat, then yes, it is a success. But, if the goal is to get rescued or, even better, to build a better boat, then the ABA has been lost at seas for 7 years.

Basically, I am not setting the bar high. It would be a success for Joe Newman. The ABA's motivation is not to “better the ship”. They are accomplishing what they want to achieve.

The ABA's main goals, in my opinion:
-Massive "Expansion" (league isn't expanding but there are always expansion franchises.)
-Affordable "Entertainment" (lowest level "pro" basketball in perhaps the world.)
- Diverse Ownership (I am not so sure this was originally a goal, it was more of a by-product that has been embraced and exploited.)
-Continuing operation (obviously.)

If you look at the goals they have achieved them all. Yet, the whole premise that the ABA has been founded on is counterproductive and flawed, from a sporting and consumer perspective.

I really don't see how Joe Newman could have such evil intentions, but I also don't see how he could be so ignorant towards the failures of his league.

[tops804]

Basically, I am not setting the bar high. It would be a success for Joe Newman. The ABA's motivation is not to “better the ship”. They are accomplishing what they want to achieve.

In exactly what way???

The ABA's main goals, in my opinion:
-Massive "Expansion" (league isn't expanding but there are always expansion franchises.)
-Affordable "Entertainment" (lowest level "pro" basketball in perhaps the world.)
- Diverse Ownership (I am not so sure this was originally a goal, it was more of a by-product that has been embraced and exploited.)
-Continuing operation (obviously.)

Are you sure these aren't Joe Newmans goals?

-Massive "Expansion" (league isn't expanding but there are always expansion franchises.)

Then it isn't expanding...at $10,000 each -- I believe he has motivation to
add franchises on a whim (see how many never even play a game).
1) Have "plan"
2) Find sucker
3) Deposit check
4) Don't answer phone
Is not "expansion"

If you look at the goals they have achieved them all. Yet, the whole premise that the ABA has been founded on is counterproductive and flawed, from a sporting and consumer perspective.

"Achieved them all"? Where, when....Did I miss it???

I really don't see how Joe Newman could have such evil intentions, but I also don't see how he could be so ignorant towards the failures of his league.

Didn't you answer that in the above quotes?

[misenern]

In exactly what way???

10k checks coming Joe's way.

Are you sure these aren't Joe Newmans goals?

Joe Newman is at the top, his goals are the league's goals, in my opinion. However, I have no iside knowledge whatsoever so I could be way off.

Then it isn't expanding...at $10,000 each -- I believe he has motivation to
add franchises on a whim (see how many never even play a game).
1) Have "plan"
2) Find sucker
3) Deposit check
4) Don't answer phone
Is not "expansion"

I touched on that in my previous post. It's in the league best interest (well, Joe's) to have teams come and go. More checks.

"Achieved them all"? Where, when....Did I miss it???

The games, if played, are affordable. There is a huge number of new franchises popping up every year. The ABA does have a fairly diverse ownership group.

Didn't you answer that in the above quotes?

A part of me believes that Joe believes his own line.

I hope this helps you.

[tops804]

Joe Newman is at the top, his goals are the league's goals, in my opinion. However, I have no iside knowledge whatsoever so I could be way off.


Same spin as the last post. In order for the league to succeed, getting
a $10,000 franchise fee is a long way from putting a quality product on
the floor. The few owners and fans they have deserve better.

If he was a true leader...He would allow himself to be more accountable
when things go wrong. Salesmen, yes...Leader, no. And when times get
rough (I.E.: The best teams drop out during the playoffs)..."They did it
on purpose...to be spiteful..." is a poor salemens excuse. "We can work
this out." or "Here's why we can't". Is a leader. Not even a good reason
on his "Ask the CEO" page...

Basically, I am not setting the bar high. It would be a success for Joe Newman. The ABA's motivation is not to “better the ship”. They are accomplishing what they want to achieve.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by misenern
Basically, I am not setting the bar high. It would be a success for Joe Newman. The ABA's motivation is not to “better the ship”. They are accomplishing what they want to achieve.

Thats a pre-requisite for this circus. In fact setting the bar anything above ground level is too high. This league is run out of a basement and is the crawl spaces' of all leagues.

Joe's spin is world class. Hands down. If I ever find myself with a ton of snow and around some Eskimoes (ok now Inuit), I'm calling Joe. He'd sell the snow to the Eskimoes and promise to build an igloo. 2 days, 2 weeks, 2 years later guess what...........NO IGLOO.

I really sway back and forth on this league. Part of me just shakes my head at this motley collection of mental midgets who continue to get burned in this debacle.........serves 'em right. Part of me just shakes my head at this same motley collection of suckers who've been soaked.

I hope this league gets better but Joe needs to realize he is not a commissioner, he isn't a leader who can lead and organize. He has this insane idea that he is a one man show. To put it into context imagine going to a Ford dealership and being over-awed by the salesman who convinced you to ditch the Ford Focus and get an Lincoln Navigator. He upsells you to the top of the line. As soon as you sign you realize ( to your shock, then horror, then contempt, followed by digust) this whiz-bang salesman also built the damn car and will also service it. You finally just throw the keys in the river and leave it to rot on the street in front of the dealership and the salesman shouts "You didn't read the owners manual"

Just because Joe is a great salesman doesn't mean he can run a league. Even this one.

[Pounder]

If you understand the purpose of a ponzi scheme, then you almost HAVE to come to the conclusion that Joe Newman, in no way, shape, or form, either cares about his skills as a commissioner or virtually anything in regards to basketball operations. As long as there are just enough teams getting by, and as long as he can sell sagebrush to Mexicans, he's making some pocket change. I argue that Mr. Newman is well aware of where his talents lie.

[OneBetter]

If you understand the purpose of a ponzi scheme, then you almost HAVE to come to the conclusion that Joe Newman, in no way, shape, or form, either cares about his skills as a commissioner or virtually anything in regards to basketball operations. As long as there are just enough teams getting by, and as long as he can sell sagebrush to Mexicans, he's making some pocket change. I argue that Mr. Newman is well aware of where his talents lie.

I would agree with Pounder and go one step further. Joe is a brilliant man. He knows all the ins and outs of a typical Ponzi scheme. But what Joe is running isn't even the classical Ponzi scheme because 1) there aren't any investors getting high rates of return and 2) a typical Ponzi scheme will collapse abruptly and usually before much time passes.

Joe has modified the scheme and has an umbrella defense against his tactics! It's brilliant. He's hiding under the guise of the risk associated with any minor league sports team. Because anyone with half a brain knows that there is a high risk of failure in minor league sports, Joe can use that as a defense when teams (aka the owner's investment) go belly up. This modification is what has kept him out of jail! He can always use this risk as a defense in court.

Joe has brilliantly modified the typical Ponzi scheme. He recruits owners, makes them pay an entry fee, and tells them if they follow a set of rules outlined in the ABA handbook, they'll make a great profit. He puts the burden back on their shoulders. That's the key step that he's modified. In a typical ponzi scheme, the initial investors are told they will get a high rate of return on their investment, and they don't have to do anything! Joe takes an investors money and tells them they have to go back out and apply a set of rules and guidelines to make their own profit. If they fail, he can blame the owner for not following the guidelines properly.

I think what Joe has created needs a new name. Joe has created the "perpetual motion Ponzi scheme" because he's modified the original rules to perpetuate it onward continuously while having a brilliant defense if and when things go wrong. It's so easy for him to recover and continue on.

[one way]

brillant job one better

[barkley34]

FACT:

Joe Newman is breaking almost EVERY KNOWN SEC LAW imaginable as a public company and with his autocratic dictatorship (completely illegal under SEC laws governing public companies), he is looking at serious fines and prison time. What NO ONE on this site realizes is that when the dust settles, and the bookkeepping and comingling of funds surfaces under his watch, he WILL be sent to prison.

There is absolutely NO WAY in hell that he can rectify or make good on the damage he has done to the shareholders, save for him coming in with $25 million cash and paying them off. He has taken the value of the company from 10-12 months ago from $26 million to almost ZERO. He WILL receive considerable jail time in the VERY near future, and there is no way he can talk his way out of it.

[misenern]

Same spin as the last post. In order for the league to succeed, getting
a $10,000 franchise fee is a long way from putting a quality product on
the floor. The few owners and fans they have deserve better.

That's my point, it doesn't matter what the owners want. Joe is getting what he wants, 250,000 dollar salary and more suckers willing to jump into his league. Joe is getting what he wants therefore the ABA is getting what it wants.

[bomp]

FACT:

Joe Newman is breaking almost EVERY KNOWN SEC LAW imaginable as a public company and with his autocratic dictatorship (completely illegal under SEC laws governing public companies), he is looking at serious fines and prison time. What NO ONE on this site realizes is that when the dust settles, and the bookkeepping and comingling of funds surfaces under his watch, he WILL be sent to prison.

There is absolutely NO WAY in hell that he can rectify or make good on the damage he has done to the shareholders, save for him coming in with $25 million cash and paying them off. He has taken the value of the company from 10-12 months ago from $26 million to almost ZERO. He WILL receive considerable jail time in the VERY near future, and there is no way he can talk his way out of it.


I'm sorry but this is a topic I know about and he will get away it. He knows it as well. He is very smart and the suckers he has found are idiots. Just read how they defend their actions on this site. They are suckers.

The SEC won't save suckers, my friend. I wish it would but it doesn't work that way.
:(