Team Problems !

[PHXfan]

:confused: Looks as though the Phoenix Flame are facing some financial problems at the midpoint in their season.

First they had to downgrade their venue from a large arena to a D2 college gym.

Second, I've seen some of their road games this weekend canceled due to money problems (Battle Creek).

Any other problems occuring in the league?

[one way]

I checked the overall IBL on OSC and found that some games were not reported or they were not played. This goes against the selling point of the IBL stating that they played all of their games. Now you come up with this info. I also found out from a friend of a friend that the Chicago IBL team does not have a home venue. Can someone please verify that ?

[BreakersFan]

There are 7 games missing on OSC. Two of those were played (4/28 Marysville 131, Akron 99 and 5/13 Lewis County 143, Cent Oregon 126), but the other 5 must have been rescheduled.

Chicago Heights is in fact playing as a road team this season.

And Phoenix did not travel to Michigan for this weekend. Instead, according to the Battle Creek newspaper, the Lansing team will play the Flame's scheduled Michigan swing. So most importantly for the fans and sponsors, a game will be played. But it is a black eye for the league.

I think this goes to show once again that the IBL struggles in larger markets (Phoenix, Oakland, Chicago, Detroit), but thrives in smaller markets. They should stay in small markets where they are a bigger deal. Unless the are a road team with a big market name (like Seattle).

[CentralOregonFan]

This league has a handbook and policy guide. For a team to stay in financial stability it is wise to follow the recommendations that the commissioner has given. Phoenix brought in many names that I'm sure demand 3 or 4 times the normal player payment and that in turn creates turmoil. Just like all business, an owner has to know EXACTLY who they are and not try to emulate something else.

[one way]

what about this chicago road team. Is the league making any special concessions for them?? Just wondering because I figure, how is the team to recoup it's expenses without any gate or business advertising dollars? That team is doomed to fail after one year. Also, your arguement about the salary policies sounds allot like Joe Neuman and his McDonalds arguement. I give the franchise and the advice- now it is up to you to sink or swim. If that team folds in mid stream, then the rest of the league is hurt. And if that Chicago team does not come back, your league gets hurt again.

[CentralOregonFan]

It's not my league, but I've seen about 3-4 games in a small market and read the handbook (becaue i've never heard of the league and recently moved to Central Oregon). I believe the owner of the team here is the founder of the league (or maybe an acting manager or something like that) and maybe that's why its running fine...but I don't know the budget so possibly it's a sinking ship.

I'm just saying that the recommendations for the league say get mostly volunteers, don't quit your job, and pay only a few people and players minimally. So many people are trying to break into the sports industry and so its probably easy to get high quality volunteers. I've seen some websites and recruiting tactics and its easy to see why some teams drive themselves broke. From a business perspective its a good model...

[dmarli]

The schedule on the Flame's page on the IBL website has a different schedule than the Flame's homepage. The IBL website lists the next Flame game at Vegas on 6/1.

I remember just before the season started, a few teams dropped and the IBL re-worked their schedule a bit. Perhaps the Flame's website still has the old version for some reason?

[BruceB]

The Lewis County Raptors are having their troubles. The only promoting they do is a 10-second mention toward the end of a local radio commercial for a car dealership and a "Game Tonight" sandwich board propped up on a freeway off-ramp, they've alienated the local media to the point where the only exposure they get is on a low-rated radio station whose news director is the team's PA announcer (neither the daily newspaper nor the top-rated radio stations will have anything to do with them), and they bounce from gym to gym for home games...making it hard for their handful of fans to know where to show up. Can't imagine that's a good recipe for selling season tickets, either.

There was some local interest in this team when it was first announced, but at this point of the season, hardly anybody cares. It's safe to call the Raptors a "disaster."

[AConcernedCitizen]

Sounds like another same old story about a team that from the outside looks to be ruining a situation for itself. 75% of them seem to.

However, can someone explain (or answer the question before) of how a Road Team works? How do you run a team that has no home gate receipts? I have seen this happen in the ABA with the Beijing team, but can someone explain this?

[one way]

Hey douglas, where are you to answer some of these questions?? Also, answer this one- why is not required that IBL do not have insurance on their players. So, if a player who is not working a full-time job and is playing "for the love of the game" blows out a knee playing in an IBL game; he is not covered? Who pays for the expensive knee replacement? And the workmans comp? Please do not say the teams need insurance to play in their High School gyms, because it is not the same thing. Also, are there medical staff at every game in case of an emergency?

[panchess]

..running a small business development class myself, the IBL business plan and follow-up is well-done, particularly by minor-league basketball standards.

The efforts to encourage promotions, involve the community and reduce cash outlays to the minimum necessary are sage advice for many potential team owners who think they'll open the doors and make money.

[AConcernedCitizen]

1. I can't speak for other minor leagues in America, but I know that in Europe, if a player blows out his knee, he's on the next plane back to America in the vast majority of cases, with his broken knee and no more money.

In Europe, teams can cut you after one game and that's all the money you will see, so holding a US minor league to the same standard of the NBA is unrealistic.

2. The IBL probably have the best and most open business plan in minor league sports. If you read their documentation carefully, it clearly tells you that 98% of all their teams lose money. If you read that and don't understand it, they've taken care to put it on every single page of their contracts.

Building a team and a league from the ground up is very hard, but they seem to have a good idea.

It is a pay-to-play league. You pay the league $22,000 a year to be a part of it.

It should stay in very small markets, however it must be very hard to resist trying to go for the glory of big markets. Everyone likes to dream and if you don't try, you will never know.

Having said that, I have no idea how a Road Team works.

[one way]

The CBA, USBL, and NBDL all have insuarnce on their athletes. If an athlete blows out a knee, it is taken care of. I believe that that each league will not let you operate until proof of such insurance is proven. That is called responsiblity and accountability. Also in these leagues (CBA, USBL and NBDL) it was explained to me that there has to be a certified trainer and medical staff at all games. If that is true, that is a level of professionalism some of these other leagues should follow. A road team does not have a home venue and only plays when it travels. It is just that simple. Say what you want about the business plan, but what happens when a players blows out his knee and sues the team, and league, for costs. What happens then? And do not say he signed a waiver- we all know that does not mean anything.

[Douglas]

one way,


Wow. I just today, just now, returned here, and lo and behold, just today you made a post addressed specifically to me (I assume, unless there is another "douglas" running around in these forums [fora?]). I checked, and am told by the website that I "last visited" on May 13. Eerie how I do this.

Anyway, on to the challenge:
Hey douglas, where are you to answer some of these questions??
I imagine I've been avoiding them.

Also, answer this one- why is [it] not required that [the] IBL...have insurance on their players[?] So, if a player who is not working a full-time job and is playing "for the love of the game" blows out a knee playing in an IBL game, he is not covered?
I don't know. I was not aware that the IBL does not require their teams to have insurance on their players. Hey, I'm just a fan, not a businessman or sports entrepeneur or what-not.

Who pays for the expensive knee replacement?
Taxpayers? Trickled-down-upon insurees? I really don't know, but I imagine that if teams do not have insurance on their players, the players are aware of this fact, and it is then up to the players to decide whether playing is worth the risk.

And the workmen's comp?
I don't know. I've never had my own business, and have minimal experience with workmen's compensation (broke my right foot a couple of years ago while house framing, on the job).

Please do not say the teams need insurance to play in their High School gyms, because it is not the same thing.
Okay, I won't.

Also, are there medical staff at every game in case of an emergency?
I have no idea. I don't work for, or even with, the IBL, and unfortunately I've neglected to check on this matter with all the IBL teams. As far as the Elkhart Express are concerned, I would be surprised if they didn't have medical staff of some sort at every game.

[PHXfan]

Most teams do have medically staff on hand at games, but a lot of time they are not provided with equiptment (tape, scissors, wraps). I guess players need to bring their own stuff if they want to be taken care of. Now this may not be the situation for every team in the league, but I know that some teams fit this category.

[ball fan]

Bruce B. commented "It's safe to call the Raptors a "disaster.""
I've been looking at the IBL's website and it would appear that for a first year team, the Raptors are doing well. If they're a disaster why are they second with sponsorships only to Battle Creek, a third year team? Lewis County is a very conservative community and there seems to be a pattern of new businesses needing to prove themselves. As for fans not knowing where to show up, it looks like their schedule is posted on the IBL website. Bruce B. also stated "they've alienated the local media..." any thoughts on how they did that?

[Pounder]

I'm hearing that Eugene is on the brink. They may not finish the season.

Heck, my source has been too busy to tell me that the head coach and assistant GM were both let go, and the GM is coaching. That's already published. Maybe there will be something in the Register Guard pretty soon (their daily editions never come online before noon Pacific, BTW).

[Douglas]

I've been looking at the IBL's website and it would appear that for a first year team, the Raptors are doing well. If they're a disaster why are they second with sponsorships only to Battle Creek, a third year team?

Where do you find information about teams' sponsorships? It would seem to me that the Elkhart Express, averaging the highest attendance in the IBL (by far, I believe) would likely have the most sponsors and the most sponsorship dollars. I could be wrong, of course.

[Pounder]

It's also fair to mention the linked blog entry.

Of course, with respect to the halftime incident, half the problem is Portland State's layout. I'm surprised this hasn't happened to the college team given the layout of a facility that doubles as the rec center.

In any event, I submit this because it likely represents the opinions of casual fans that ALL these leagues need to survive.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/portlandstatevikings/2007/06/the_ibl_at_least_i_got_a_free.html#more

[one way]

Sums up the whole IBL expierence. I guess the writer of that blog was a "failed player" or had a vandetta against the league. No, these types of stories sum up IBL games time and time again. And to think the guy ( who has never seen an actual IBL game) says that he knows more about the IBL than most of us. Rec league

[mammal]

The IBL is the ONLY stable Spring/Summer league. The WBA and USBL are in the toilet.

The IBL does work better in small to mid size cities. Portland, Seattle, Chicago is not an ideal market.

I would take an IBL all star team anytime over an USBL, WBA or ABA all star team.

No minor league is perfect, all leagues have holes here and there.

The IBL plays the games scheduled and pays it's players. The ABA, USBL and the WBA can't say that.

[Pounder]

...and I'll even step up to say that "stable" is a VERY relative term as applied here.

I happen to think there are markets and methods where this will work... whether they are being employed or not by the IBL is another matter.

However, there's something to be said for being able to talk to players on the floor right after the game. There are times when, as the book title says, "small is beautiful." Can you get the people and places to make that work? I don't think it works in the big cities. Unfortunately, it's not working in places like Eugene, either. Salem, Everett, Tacoma, Bend... that's where I'm waiting for the jury to come in.

[one way]

former NBA player and USBL Head Coach, Cliff Levingston states in todays paper that the USBL has now dropped to an IBL or WBA type of level. That means that the USBL was higher now its standards have dropped to a lower level. That lower level being the IBL

[Dan K]

If the Phoenix Flame goes out, then what about the Arizona Lightning? The owner of the Flame was reportedly the owner of the Lightning, which was scheduled a few games in 2007 with plans to join as a full member in 2008.

[new dude]

The Phoenix Flame look like they are ok. They have played the last two weekends going 3-1. Looks like they just had a schedule change, but they have played their games

[PHXfan]

But the Flame played their games against the Arizona Lightning who is an expansion team for next year. They were initially set to play Tri Valley, but I don't know what happened in this case.

[kahunakats]

I attended the Saturday night Flame/Lightning game at Grand Canyon University and spoke at length with the team owner. There were 50 people in the stands-counting wives, girlfriends and children. No program, three cheerleaders, an announcer you couldn't hear and a 9-on-8 game against a team called together because Tri-Valley reportedly folded and didn't make the trip. It was a half an hour late in starting and the gate was probably in the neighborhood of $200. Since I used to work with the Phoenix Eclipse of the ABA, it was (as Yogi says) deja vu all over again. The owner now owns a franchise in the ABA to play in Tucson.

[one way]

teh only teams that are "invited" to the play-offs are the teams that can afford to go. So, the best team in th league, could say we cannot afford to go- so then they will could be replaced by the worst team in the league if they said they can afford the gas. What a league.