View Full Version : Should USBL just stop now?
With Jackson and probably Delaware about to close shop what is the incentive for the other teams to keep going?
There are only so many games you can make up, and as much as I enjoy Cagerz games, I only need to see them play Oklahoma and Dodge City so many times.
Who the heck is Brooklyn going to make up their games against?
At one time the USBL truly was relevant.
But it's lived in the past too long. Even things like the league history where they list former USBL players in the NBA ... they never update it.
My, gosh, Devin Brown, a former USBL rookie of the year who truly started his career in the USBL, and won a champioship with the Spurs is not on the list.
Should the remaining teams just cut their losses and regroup for a possible formation of a new league next season? I would say yes, but what does everybody else think.
Minor League Man
05-01-2007, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Steelheads rejoin the CBA soon...
And I also think the IBL could use a few more good franchises (They seem to be the only stable spring basketball league around)
panchess
05-01-2007, 02:38 PM
..given how the USBL season has gone. Obviously the good teams in this league could not have had an idea that the season to date would be such a nightmare.
All it is going to take now is one of the good teams to just say "we're outta here" and the season will likely have to be suspended anyway. At this point, you really couldn't blame one or more of the Midwestern teams from hooking up with the two Texas teams in the WBA and starting over.
In that scenario, the Patroons would just call it a season and work on the CBA. Gary? I don't know.
BreakersFan
05-01-2007, 02:40 PM
Of course I do not have a dog (or a dollar) in this fight, but here is what I would do.
Gary, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Dodge City should just try to play out as much of a schedule as possible among the four of them - preserve as many home dates as possible an then play a 4 team tournament festival as already scheduled in Enid.
Albany and Brooklyn should just fold. Brooklyn is already struggling and Albany isn't exactly turining people away. The added travel of having to go to the midwest for an additional unplanned for swing would be a financial killer anyway.
After this season, Albany should just concentrate on the CBA. The ownerships groups in Gary, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Dodge should approach the IBL - which is a better option than trying to start a new league.
PHXfan
05-01-2007, 02:41 PM
It really sucks to see minor league basketball heading in the direction that it is. The USBL was always my favorite league of all the minor leagues, but now it looks like it's following in the steps of the CBA.
Best of luck for the remainder of the season, but I don't think this league will survive.
panchess
05-01-2007, 03:25 PM
..though that probably would be the best course of action. Clearly the East has been a fiasco for the USBL for two years, and the Midwest should function viably on its own, either as a new league or merged with the WBA or IBL.
PHXfan
05-01-2007, 04:39 PM
USBL / IBL merge would make a lot of sense. Especially those midwest teams!
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-01-2007, 07:30 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Steelheads rejoin the CBA soon...
And I also think the IBL could use a few more good franchises (They seem to be the only stable spring basketball league around)
Cough, cough, cough...AACHOO!
Whoa! You're WAY off the mark with that Steelheads rejoining the CBA thing. That's not going to happen--ever!
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-01-2007, 08:01 PM
With Jackson and probably Delaware about to close shop what is the incentive for the other teams to keep going?
There are only so many games you can make up, and as much as I enjoy Cagerz games, I only need to see them play Oklahoma and Dodge City so many times.
Who the heck is Brooklyn going to make up their games against?
At one time the USBL truly was relevant.
But it's lived in the past too long. Even things like the league history where they list former USBL players in the NBA ... they never update it.
My, gosh, Devin Brown, a former USBL rookie of the year who truly started his career in the USBL, and won a champioship with the Spurs is not on the list.
Should the remaining teams just cut their losses and regroup for a possible formation of a new league next season? I would say yes, but what does everybody else think.
Why should the USBL just stop now? I've only followed this league for a short time, although I remember a few years back when a coach took his team and didn't return after halftime because he didn't like the refs' calls. If the USBL didn't cease operations after that fiasco, then why should they call it quits now? The average fan doesn't care about the problems the USBL is having--at least in Gary they don't. These fans only care that a basketball game is going to be played once they find their seats. That's why I think the Cagerz should have improvised when it became apparent they didn't have enough refs. Keep the fans happy. Why stop a season when you don't have to?
bectond
05-01-2007, 08:38 PM
I agree, who really cares. Jackson and Delaware never played any home games, nor did New Jersey for that matter. Who's gonna miss those guys.
P.S.
The Steelheads re-joining the CBA would be priceless, i'd laugh about that one for weeks. I'd be researching post Ken quotes for even longer.
panchess
05-01-2007, 08:44 PM
I agree with Ken on that. Just cut the slackers, redo the schedule and move forward if that is what it takes. If it's six teams, so be it. Let's get rolling and get the season moving and over with.
One thing I can say in the CBA is that when Utah folded, the announcement stated that the games would be spread among the teams. Something like three days later (with two games lost), the schedule was redone with a minimum of disruption. I think each team had to move one or two home games. Bad, but not a total disaster.
Having a schedule with almost half the games missing for two weeks is unacceptable. So is fans showing up twice in Jackson, MS for a game that didn't take place.
The issue becomes when a team is folding every day and games are missed. Then fans wonder if the games will take place (like in the ABA) and attendance suffers. Clearly, each USBL cluster should have a back-up referee or two. For $400-$500 on the last day in April (or whatever the USBL pays), I find it hard to believe a basketball referee isn't available, even in central Kansas.
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-01-2007, 10:23 PM
I agree, who really cares. Jackson and Delaware never played any home games, nor did New Jersey for that matter. Who's gonna miss those guys.
P.S.
The Steelheads re-joining the CBA would be priceless, i'd laugh about that one for weeks. I'd be researching post Ken quotes for even longer.
Sometimes I can be a bore, but I'm a fairly accurate bore. The CBA won't see the Steelheads again. Therefore, you won't have to laugh yourself sick, nor will you have to do research until you drop. ;)
panchess,
I've said much about teams having the desire to play...well, Kansas really dropped the ball on the ref issue IMO. It's like one of the Chicago Bears being interviewed before the Superbowl. "Football isn't brain surgery," the Bears player said. Well, pro basketball isn't brain surgery either. Someone should have been available to ref that game. Here's that photo again of the Steelheads pre-season scrimmage. At least one of the refs was a high school ref and ALL the refs did a great, professional job in my opinion:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/kennethap/season1.jpg
BTW, the following is the last we'll see of the Jackson Wildcats and their rec league uniforms:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/kennethap/opener5.jpg
There was a league conference call this afternoon and a new schedule was put into place....Oklahoma plays Kansas and Dodge City seven times a piece. The midwest teams will go east and play some of those teams a couple of times...
We should get through the season now...what happens after that? Who knows!
barkley34
05-01-2007, 11:29 PM
The reason the NFL, Major League BBall and minor league baseball succeed and never have these problems is they have net worth and cash reserve requirements. For minor league bball its $5 million MINIMUM networth and $1 million cash reserve.
Why is it the USBL doe no such thing. There would never be another folded team, missed game and thus pissed corporate sponsors if the league simply made ALL owners have $1-2 million in the bank at the start of each season. Period. Problem solved. If they cannot afford THAT, they cannot afford a team. I am just curious WHY this is not done.
Pounder
05-02-2007, 01:44 PM
As much as I'm on the performance bond boat, I do not like attaching solid numbers to these things. I'm betting operations are less expensive than the millions that one of our "favorites" here has posted. Bond, yes. Millions? I don't think USL-1 teams put up millions (I'm appallingly comfortable with comparing soccer to basketball here for reasons beyond even my comprehension), and that's greater geography than the USBL.
Put another way- at THOSE prices, there wouldn't be a USBL. There probably wouldn't be ANY minor league hoops.
The reason the NFL, Major League BBall and minor league baseball succeed and never have these problems is they have net worth and cash reserve requirements. For minor league bball its $5 million MINIMUM networth and $1 million cash reserve.
Why is it the USBL doe no such thing. There would never be another folded team, missed game and thus pissed corporate sponsors if the league simply made ALL owners have $1-2 million in the bank at the start of each season. Period. Problem solved. If they cannot afford THAT, they cannot afford a team. I am just curious WHY this is not done.
Nobody in the USBL has that kind of money.
I'd say all the owners COMBINED don't have that kind of money.
One to two million dollars!
This is summertime minor-league basketball. Half the teams don't draw 300 fans per game.
barkley34
05-02-2007, 07:53 PM
With a failure rate of 100% for franchises in the USBL....that is an accurate figure since the league inception correct? And a sustained success rate in A, AAA, AAA baseball of well over 75% or more, and I understand MLB gives some subsidies, but not much and that still has nothing to do with the net worth and cash reserves.......than why do these leagues continue.
Why not adopt the policies that WORK. Have them come in with a minimum of $2 million cash reserve, first class arena, marketing team, sales staff, etc., and do it the RIGHT WAY, rather than "selling" franchises to George Steinbrenner and Mark Cuban dreamers without a pot to piss in and a windo to throw it out of. The failure rate for minor league basketball is 100%!!!!!! Thats 100%!!! How is the above approach not a great way to end this debacle.
(Edited by moderator)
Chuck the Writer
05-02-2007, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE=barkley34;46664]With a failure rate of 100% for franchises in the USBL....that is an accurate figure since the league inception correct? And a sustained success rate in A, AAA, AAA baseball of well over 75% or more, and I understand MLB gives some subsidies, but not much and that still has nothing to do with the net worth and cash reserves.......than why do these leagues continue.
Why not adopt the policies that WORK. Have them come in with a minimum of $2 million cash reserve, first class arena, marketing team, sales staff, etc., and do it the RIGHT WAY, rather than "selling" franchises to George Steinbrenner and Mark Cuban dreamers without a pot to piss in and a windo to throw it out of. The failure rate for minor league basketball is 100%!!!!!! Thats 100%!!! How is the above approach not a great way to end this debacle.
(Edited by moderator, see above)QUOTE]
First things first. Putt'near every minor league baseball team (except for independent squads like the Northern League) have affiliation deals with major league baseball clubs. Without an affiliation, minor league baseball teams die. The last time I heard of an independent minor league team surviving and thriving was the Utica Blue Sox of the mid-1980's, and that was a team owned by writer Roger Kahn - who eventually turned his experiences in Utica into a book. And even that was in the bottom-of-the-rung NY-Penn League, a short-season single-A operation where if a guy is in that league for more than a year he's got no chance of making it to the big club.
The USBL has no working agreement with the NBA. The only league that has a working relationship with the NBA is the D-League. When the CBA had a working relationship with the NBA, the NBA paid for officials, gave the league a $1-$2 million operating stipend, and promoted the CBA as the place where up-and-coming NBA stars could be found. Now that money is going to the D-League, and even though the CBA did have call-ups after the Isiah Thomas debacle, the new affiliation system with the D-League and the gentleman's agreement not to call up any CBA players has essentially changed the balance of things.
Same thing with minor league hockey. At one time there were two leagues - the AHL and the IHL. The AHL's teams all had working agreements with NHL clubs; the IHL had some teams with working agreements and some independent squads. Guess what. At some point the NHL said, "Hey look, we want all our teams to pull from one single league." And next thing you know, the six or seven affiliated IHL teams joined the AHL and the IHL died like a rotted fish.
That, plus the ABA mucking things up all over the country, have caused serious problems for the CBA and the USBL. Of course, some of the USBL's current problems are the USBL's own fault - trying to secure ten teams when they really had only six viable franchises; trying to make sure that there were viable Eastern Division opponents for the Brooklyn Kings after the Pennsylvania ValleyDawgs bit the dust; trying to survive a 2007 season that seems as if Joe Newman had taken over the commissioner's position.
The CBA has continued to fight the good fight, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more solid franchises in the CBA for 2007-08. Yeah, they took a body punch that would have made Floyd Mayweather wet his pants, what with the NBA poaching their most solid franchises, etc. At this time last year, the CBA had two franchises - Albany and Yakama. They finished the 06-07 season with seven. I believe more will join next year.
As for the USBL, they may be running out of steam. The IBL has found a way to bring spring basketball at an affordable price (although I wonder what players really get paid for IBL games), and even though the USBL is limping along, it's lasted for 20 years. That's longer in seasons than the old ABA and the current ABA combined.
Paul S
05-02-2007, 08:16 PM
Ken:
That ref in the top photo, the one wearing number 30. Is he wearing an IBL logo on the back of his shirt?
patmc16
05-02-2007, 08:24 PM
At least one of the refs was a high school ref and ALL the refs did a great, professional job in my opinion:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/kennethap/season1.jpg
Were they IBL refs? I noticed the logo on #30's uniform.
MJHankel
05-02-2007, 11:29 PM
Ken:
That ref in the top photo, the one wearing number 30. Is he wearing an IBL logo on the back of his shirt?
That is the old IBL logo. (The IBL that merged with the IBA to resurrect the CBA). The Steelheads played their first season in that IBL.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c5/IBL_logo.gif
jamesaba
05-03-2007, 07:06 AM
The reason the NFL, Major League BBall and minor league baseball succeed and never have these problems is they have net worth and cash reserve requirements. For minor league bball its $5 million MINIMUM networth and $1 million cash reserve.
Why is it the USBL doe no such thing. There would never be another folded team, missed game and thus pissed corporate sponsors if the league simply made ALL owners have $1-2 million in the bank at the start of each season. Period. Problem solved. If they cannot afford THAT, they cannot afford a team. I am just curious WHY this is not done.
The reason this is not done because if it was, there would be NO USBL! The league can barely find enough teams to make a league let alone fine qualified owners.
Pounder
05-03-2007, 12:37 PM
With a failure rate of 100% for franchises in the USBL....that is an accurate figure since the league inception correct? And a sustained success rate in A, AAA, AAA baseball of well over 75% or more, and I understand MLB gives some subsidies, but not much
Not much? Just the entire player payroll, plus the marketing goodwill that comes with the major league parent. Honestly!
Why not adopt the policies that WORK. Have them come in with a minimum of $2 million cash reserve, first class arena, marketing team, sales staff, etc., and do it the RIGHT WAY, rather than "selling" franchises to George Steinbrenner and Mark Cuban dreamers without a pot to piss in and a windo to throw it out of.
Let's get the apples and oranges out of the way. For MINOR LEAGUE BASKETBALL, what policies have actually worked?
More to the point: I'm betting substantially that some league somewhere (please stand up, CBA of the late 80s and early 90s) did just what you said, and look where they are now. I also suspect that some leagues have started up this way. When you only have one taker, THEN WHAT? Is it possible that rich people just don't want to do minor pro hoops?
And I am not one of Pounders "favorites"?...oh my, how will I sleep tonite. Oh thats right, I own $40 million in real estate and drive a 2005 Ferrari Testarossa. Fact.
(Comment deleted by moderator)
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-03-2007, 05:45 PM
Were they IBL refs? I noticed the logo on #30's uniform.
No. Those were old ref shirts the Steelheads had stowed away with the old Steelheads uniforms. I recognized the guys wearing them as local refs--one does high school games, one has done CBA games before, and I've just seen the other guy before somewhere.
You can look around the Genesis Center at any Steelheads game and find at least six or seven people capable of refereeing a pro basketball game. Heck, all those people sitting at the scorer's table could call a game. I guess it is indeed a different basketball culture in Salina, Kansas.
nksports
05-03-2007, 05:55 PM
I guess it is indeed a different basketball culture in Salina, Kansas.
Basketball officiating (at least at the high school and small college level) in Kansas is actually quite simple. When a guard looks at another guard funny, you call the foul. You let play go inside until you have to call the med-evac helicopter. Then you clean up the excess body parts off the floor and resume play.
jamesaba
05-03-2007, 09:26 PM
When you only have one taker, THEN WHAT? Is it possible that rich people just don't want to do minor pro hoops?
There's an old saying: "How do you make a small fortune in minor league basketball?"
Answer: "start with a BIG one!"
->Even rich people don't like to just spend money on a losing proposition.
I guess it is indeed a different basketball culture in Salina, Kansas.
What the heck does that mean?
When I look in the stands in your photos all I mostly see is empty seats, but in Gary I imagine the seats are also licensed officials.
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-04-2007, 10:52 AM
What the heck does that mean?
When I look in the stands in your photos all I mostly see is empty seats, but in Gary I imagine the seats are also licensed officials.
Well, the photo in this thread was a pre-season scrimmage. The other photos are gameday photos. The last home game drew 922. The Genesis Center holds 6,500 for basketball. Yes, that's 5,578 empty seats...and I was being conservative when I said there are at least six or seven people present at every Steelheads game that could ref in a pinch. There are probably more.
My basketball culture comment meant that I guess people with backgrounds in officiating aren't making their way to Cagerz home games. The Cagerz couldn't find one person to fill-in? Not one? Yeah, I know I'm repeating myself (again)--but, it sticks in my crawl when fans expect to see a game and are instead sent home without seeing a game (although I have no idea which part of the human anatomy is my crawl).
Well, the photo in this thread was a pre-season scrimmage. The other photos are gameday photos. The last home game drew 922. The Genesis Center holds 6,500 for basketball. Yes, that's 5,578 empty seats...and I was being conservative when I said there are at least six or seven people present at every Steelheads game that could ref in a pinch. There are probably more.
My basketball culture comment meant that I guess people with backgrounds in officiating aren't making their way to Cagerz home games. The Cagerz couldn't find one person to fill-in? Not one? Yeah, I know I'm repeating myself (again)--but, it sticks in my crawl when fans expect to see a game and are instead sent home without seeing a game (although I have no idea which part of the human anatomy is my crawl).
Actually they had ONE sanctioned USBL official available, but they were not going to play without TWO USBL-sanctioned officials.
What if something serious happened? A fight breaks out -- it's happened a few times in the USBL -- or there is a flagrant foul and somebody gets hurt.
Come to find out, the game is being officiated by unlicensed officials. Somebody says "sue." Franchise kaput.
I mean, if I remember right, Gary didn't feel comfortable playing a game without a certified trainer. I bet I can safely say that there has been many a game played out East without a trainer in the stands.
As far as prep/college basketball officials, there are several at every Cagerz game if that makes you feel better about Salina's basketball culture.
BreakersFan
05-04-2007, 03:01 PM
I bet I can safely say that there has been many a game played out East without a trainer in the stands.
There have been games played out east without any FANS in the stands, let alone a trainer :)
MJHankel
05-04-2007, 04:18 PM
There were no EMT's not just trainers. EMT's are important.
There were no EMT's not just trainers. EMT's are important.
I totally agree, they ARE important. I'm just saying that I am sure games have been played without them.
There have been games played out east without any FANS in the stands, let alone a trainer :)
Maybe some "fans in training."
MJHankel
05-04-2007, 07:20 PM
So, has the new schedule been finalized and released yet, I am seriously getting confused.
MJHankel
05-05-2007, 12:56 AM
Well, the photo in this thread was a pre-season scrimmage. The other photos are gameday photos. The last home game drew 922. The Genesis Center holds 6,500 for basketball. Yes, that's 5,578 empty seats...and I was being conservative when I said there are at least six or seven people present at every Steelheads game that could ref in a pinch. There are probably more.
Just curious, how many people is the Hudson Cambell able to seat?
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-05-2007, 08:44 AM
Just curious, how many people is the Hudson Cambell able to seat?
Realistically 125 fans, but could be expanded if bleachers were placed on the adjoining tennis courts. The ABA team, Gary Giants, that actually was the Twin Cities ABA team tried to reserve court time there to play a game. Gary's a pretty close knit community and they got sniffed-out awfully fast, so the game never happened.
The photo below is the basketball court in question. The guy holding the baseball bat is former Chicago White Sox manager (and current New York Mets bench coach) Jerry Manuel. There is another basketball court upstairs in the middle of the jogging track (with much less seating capacity).
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/kennethap/DSCI0081.jpg
MJHankel
05-05-2007, 02:09 PM
I was just wondering, how much does it cost for the Steelheads to rent the Genesis? Are they gonna be there next year? (I mean exist)
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-06-2007, 11:44 AM
I was just wondering, how much does it cost for the Steelheads to rent the Genesis? Are they gonna be there next year? (I mean exist)
The Steelheads get a very favorable deal on the Genesis Center. The cost is in the area of $1800 per game I believe. The city also pumps tens of thousands of dollars a year into advertising for the Steelheads, thus saving the team a ton. I don't see them dissolving soon (especially since a new ownership group is in place), but you never know with minor league sports. All I know is no one's going to love the Steelheads like Gary, Indiana. They won't get financial assistance like that anywhere else.
The Steelheads get a very favorable deal on the Genesis Center. The cost is in the area of $1800 per game I believe. The city also pumps tens of thousands of dollars a year into advertising for the Steelheads, thus saving the team a ton. I don't see them dissolving soon (especially since a new ownership group is in place), but you never know with minor league sports. All I know is no one's going to love the Steelheads like Gary, Indiana. They won't get financial assistance like that anywhere else.
How about concessions? Cagerz were constantly trying to work out a better deal with their venue on rent and concessions.
I have forgotten the rent, but unless something has changed they didn't get any concessions.
I'm fairly certain they do not get any advertising help.
I wish the Storm would have thought to forfeit when we were down there a couple of weeks ago when Jackson got their only win! There were no trainers....no emt's...and we decided to play...
Why should Gary get two wins and we take a loss? We actually played when asked to.
I wish the Storm would have thought to forfeit when we were down there a couple of weeks ago when Jackson got their only win! There were no trainers....no emt's...and we decided to play...
Why should Gary get two wins and we take a loss? We actually played when asked to.
I've had similar thoughts over the past couple seasons when some teams received forfeit wins and others played and lost (though usually the established team won).
I'm sure not all the teams will end up playing the same number of games, so when seeding times comes it will be victory percentages which isn't totally fair either.
This season I might name a top seed, only because it will get a bye, then chuck everybody else in a hat. Or maybe put the top three in a hat to draw the No. 1 seed, then put the last six in the hat and pull them out randomly.
Ken, Steelheads fan
05-06-2007, 01:36 PM
I wish the Storm would have thought to forfeit when we were down there a couple of weeks ago when Jackson got their only win! There were no trainers....no emt's...and we decided to play...
Why should Gary get two wins and we take a loss? We actually played when asked to.
TEN,
You just answered your own question. The Storm SHOULD have asked for a forfeit victory. Jackson wasn't keeping stats, wasn't filming, and most important--didn't have paramedics or a trainer on the premises.
Brian Chase crashes into a Nicholson seat fan at the end of the following play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyZYDRN1cJI
The game was delayed while the EMT's wheeled the fan out in a neck brace. That's why my wife won't let us get Nicholson seats (I'm not too thrilled with the idea of being knocked senseless either). We also sit behind the net at baseball games for protection. Lots of fans have been carted out of the ballpark to waiting ambulances too. Sporting events can be dangerous for fans, so just think how hazardous it is for players.
Plus, it helps to have a full-time PR person on staff and a couple of lawyers in the ownership group. ;)
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