IBL, your day is here...

[BreakersFan]

With the USBL in a state of virtual collapse (3 teams already folding, 2 looking pretty bad for finishing the season), and the WBA limping into a late starting season, the IBL is now the most stable spring basketball league.

This is the IBL's chance to impress and maybe pick up some quality organizations for next season, and become the premier spring basketball league. Best wishes to the IBL! Don't blow your credibility like the USBL and WBA have!

[AConcernedCitizen]

Have you been to see a game in their league?

[PHXfan]

Have you been to see a game in their league?

I have. And I've seen games the last 2 years as well. I haven't seen many teams play outside the PHX Flame this year, but the league seems to be getting better each year.

With the state of the USBL, and unless Chris Terrell can do something about the WBA soon, the IBL WILL be the premeir spring/summer league.

And for the UBL, who knows what will happen there.

The only way that the UBL will be able to get good players and a good start for their season will be if they pay the players much better than the IBL which is not that hard to do.

[BreakersFan]

Have you been to see a game in their league?

No, I have never seen an IBL game. But at least a much much higher percentage of the IBL games are actually played as scheduled compared to the USBL and WBA. And a higher number of teams have played two plus seasons.

From what people say, the league get's better each season. So this is their chance to step up and add some good/organizations and markets for 2008.

The USBL and WBA have become the ABA of spring hoops. No doubt that many IBL teams struggle, but the IBL does have a dozen or so good organizations and markets that support their IBL teams with decent sponsorship, media coverage, and attendance.

So this now makes 2007 a real opportunity season for the IBL. If they play out the schedule and continue getting stronger, then the IBL is a viable option for the Garys and Dodge Citys of the world.

[Pounder]

Personally, I think the jury is still out on whether this is an "arena" entity or not.

"Arena"= a place where you would expect to see pro sports played, like Everett Events Center or the Crown or the like. Everett has a team in the IBL this year, so I'm keeping an eye out.

The IBL survives by being smaller than that... and by not tickling our collective senses of humor by issuing useless challenges to the NBA... basically by knowing what it is and only poking further a tiny little bit at a time.

I'm still caught between thinking it's too small for the large towns and "maybe that's what's needed." I still have skepticism, but I can see where an appeal might lie.

[AConcernedCitizen]

There seems to be this huge barrier on these message boards about the room that any basketball game is played in. I personally could not care less what kind of room a team plays in.

I would not even venture a, "sure, I would prefer an arena" comment because I have been to games played in small gyms that hold 1,500 where the atmosphere blows away 3,000 people in a 6,000 seat arena.

Where a game is played is secondary to the actual game itself.

I guess we in America have just become spoiled with the mega-arenas that NBA teams play in, but guess what? Those arena's need to be paid for and with all due respect either you live in an area where you CAN go to an NBA game AND afford to pay for it, or you don't. So what's at issue here?

You pay $10 or $12.50 to see a minor (even very minor) league game or you pay $80 to see a pro game, pay $20 to park the car and then pay $8 or $9 for a Bud.

Expecting to see Santa Barbara Breakers or any team in the IBL in an arena is a bit odd.

And frankly, the Explosion (who do play in an arena), can I ask, what on earth are they playing in the IBL for? Maybe they are just warming up for a D-League berth?

Their attendances are better than a lot of D-League games...

[Pounder]

I would extend the barrier WELL beyond just message boards.

The real rub... by conventional wisdom, a lot of money is made on beer sales. The IDEAL is to have a place that sells beer. High school gyms and most college facilities ban beer sales (usually for good reason).

There's another stigma here... you're playing in a HS or college gym, then you're getting compared to the HS or college team that "owns" the place. That's not necessarily a good thing.

There could be a bias against bleachers when it comes to the expectations of a pro fan. Almost certainly, I believe this DOES pertain to the larger markets. If you go the HS gym route, you better be in a city that doesn't really have pro or substantial college competition, and it better not be a one-school town, otherwise it's pants.

Thing is, I WOULD consider throwing up metal bleachers in buildings on county fairgrounds or even in barns. I would consider auditoriums where everyone sits on one side (or, for instance, the Salem Armory in Oregon, which looks like it's part arena and part auditorium). If you can sell beer, you're halfway home... but if you can have at least partial control over an arena, you'll be swimming in good stuff.

One oddity: Pendleton Convention Center, in the Eastern Oregon town of Pendleton. It looks like a former supermarket or warehouse renovated into civic building on the outside (with suitable facade), and it looks like a HS gym in the playing area... it just happens to have the first floor the Phoenix Suns used in America West, and nobody in Pendleton ever bothered to erase the markings. It hosts one of the state HS tournaments every year (smaller schools). Since it's not on school grounds, I'd think it can serve alcohol, but because it's in Pendleton, population less than 20,000, it's not necessarily going to host a pro team. If you were able to airlift that to, say, a Medford OR / Redding CA / Bellingham WA / Idaho Falls ID / Cheyenne WY / St. Cloud MN et cetera, you'd have something IMO.

EDIT- I've got pictures in Pendleton! http://www.pendletonnet.com/business/pcc/pccmain.htm

Scroll down- the basketball alignment is at the bottom.

[CentralOregonFan]

The IBL might be playing a game in Pendleton this June...stay tuned

[one way]

before all of you people talk up the IBL- go see a game. What a joke. Volunteer coaches, high school arc, bleacher seating, no staff, no trainers, players of D3 status. Face the facts- a solid looking web site and a bunch of press releases on OSC does not make a league. face the facts. This is a glorified rec league who happens to post their results on the web. Check out these rosters- be serious- have you really heard of any these guys. Minor league fans know J. Moon, know Steve Castleberry, no K. reid, etc. Minor leagye fans know Coach levingston, know Flax and know that the coach in Albany at least coached in the CBA. D. Osbourne has been a minor league guy for years. Check out these coaches in the IBL.. Nobodys. Good coaches get good players which produces a better product. Plain and simple. THe USBL is a mess, but the IBl is not the answer.

[Pounder]

You know, one way, that pretty much IS what I think it is.

Someone has to be the bottom of the barrel, no?

My comment- it's still watchable to someone. I offer the opinion that it provides the opportunity to locate in smaller markets (well, smaller than Portland, larger than Centralia) and PERHAPS, POSSIBLY, pick up some rural nuggets that scouts miss.

The business model is still an open question, there obviously needs to be some tweaking... and, in all reality, how many professional coaches are there?

Another thought- look at hockey. The AHL is the primary holding tank for NHL teams, the ECHL is supposed to be real AA and holds a lot of affiliations, the UHL plays like it's AA and tried to spend their way to quality (and has been close to croaking), but the Central Hockey League kind of doesn't play up being AA and just focuses on getting buildings built and fielding a more cost effective model. Frankly, the Central has the best business model of the bunch. Go figure.

[BreakersFan]

before all of you people talk up the IBL- go see a game. What a joke. Volunteer coaches, high school arc, bleacher seating, no staff, no trainers, players of D3 status. Face the facts- a solid looking web site and a bunch of press releases on OSC does not make a league. face the facts. This is a glorified rec league who happens to post their results on the web. Check out these rosters- be serious- have you really heard of any these guys. Minor league fans know J. Moon, know Steve Castleberry, no K. reid, etc. Minor leagye fans know Coach levingston, know Flax and know that the coach in Albany at least coached in the CBA. D. Osbourne has been a minor league guy for years. Check out these coaches in the IBL.. Nobodys. Good coaches get good players which produces a better product. Plain and simple. THe USBL is a mess, but the IBl is not the answer.

I have not seen an IBL game. But you can say whatever you want - the crowds in places like Elkhart, Elgin, Eugene, and other places beg to differ. Minor league basketball is about basketball as entertainment, not household names. For that matter, I would argue that the majority of fans who go to a minor league sports game in any sport at any level know who most of the players are. Teams live and die on casual fans - not people like us on these boards.

[one way]

I cannot comment on Elkhart. but I have a friend that has seen Elgin play. He stated he counted the number of fans in the stands. Whatever is reported attendance wise, usually you should take half. By the way, have you seen any IBL games? I have. It is bad basketball, bad players, bad coaching and for the fans, a bad presentation. I know that some venues are better than others- but from the games I see, I think that it will be tough to have many of the teams return for a second or third season. There is a question for you. How many of the original teams of the IBL have returned for their second or third seasons?

[AConcernedCitizen]

I'm told a lot of teams do return season on season, but I have also been told that the league admits 22 or 24 teams lost money last year!

I agree with the earlier comment that people know what they are getting well in advance. If you play in a HS gym or college gym, they know they aren't going to get the GS Warriors.

Some people like the rawness of the game this way.

I hope some of the teams do rise up, sort of in a distilling process and in a few years, there are a dozen solid teams.

People just expect too much. These people need to go to see NBA games.

But as I live ages from one of those, I will go see what I can.

[CentralOregonFan]

I cannot comment on Elkhart. but I have a friend that has seen Elgin play. He stated he counted the number of fans in the stands. Whatever is reported attendance wise, usually you should take half. By the way, have you seen any IBL games? I have. It is bad basketball, bad players, bad coaching and for the fans, a bad presentation. I know that some venues are better than others- but from the games I see, I think that it will be tough to have many of the teams return for a second or third season. There is a question for you. How many of the original teams of the IBL have returned for their second or third seasons?


I'm suprised you continue to write on these boards if you hate the IBL so much. Most teams in the IBL (23-24) have been in the league at least one prior season. The first year there were 12 teams and now it has doubled...obviously someone likes the product.

Bad Players?..it's funny because I've heard a few times that it's glorified rec-ball; about 65% of the players in the IBL play pro ball in other leagues: ABA, Europe, China, Japan, Saudia Arabia...I do not know one single, NOT ONE rec player who gets to play ball overseas, gets paid, and full room and board. These guys choose to play basketball for minimal cash, room, and board and continue to chase a dream instead of settling down like the normal boring suburban family...I admire the players, the work ethic, and the dedication.

By the way, tell David Lucas, Donald Watts, Toby Bailey, God Shammgod, Michael Brownlee, Rashaad Powell and some other IBL stars that they are bad...most of these guys were top two rounders, played in the NBA, or continually attend NBA team camps.

The IBL is for people who like pure basketball, not for people who want the NBA talent but are too cheap to buy a ticket.

[one way]

I never said that I hated the IBL. This thread was started by people saying that with the USBL floundering, now is the time for the IBL to shine. I simply stated that the IBL is not the answer. People post on this board the pros of the IBL because of the press releases without ever seeing the product. If they saw the product, the posters would realize that it is an oraganized rec league- plain and simple. If that is what you like, great, have a great time at the old ball game. But after seeing the product is different venues and in different years, I find it hard to believe that peopple pay money to buy season tickets or sponsorships for this league. Now, the guys you mentioned, the majority play on the west coast. That is the strongest of the IBL, but have to admit that if you look at the majority of these rosters, these players are from NAIA and Division three schools. If that is the level of basketball you like- great. But it is not and I repeat not the level of talant of the USBL. Not by a long shot. And, you cannot tell me that expansion shows how great the league is- look at the ABA. they expand on an hourerly basis. My question was simply, how many teams repeated for the second and third years. The USBL has had teams for years and years. And let me repeat myself, the USBL is in bad shape, but player wise and basketball wise, it is better than the IBL>

[Pounder]

Since I have never seen a USBL game, I can't comment on the quality of play.

You want that quality of play to matter. I'm seeing that the geographic spread of the USBL is a serious issue. If a league can't manage costs well enough, quality doesn't matter.

[Douglas]

one way,

I never said that I hated the IBL. This thread was started by people saying that with the USBL floundering, now is the time for the IBL to shine.
I think this thread was started by one person.

I simply stated that the IBL is not the answer. People post on this board the pros of the IBL because of the press releases without ever seeing the product.
We do? All of us? How would you know? Actually, I myself have "seen the product" a number of times, and have always enjoyed myself, and the quality of the basketball played (at least by the team I support, my hometown team, the Elkhart Express [most of the other teams I've seen {when they played in Elkhart} seemed to me quite, in many cases more than, adequate]). I don't pretend to be a basketball expert or analyst, but I can say that I pegged Dwayne Wade as a top-five NBA pick after having seen him play in only one college game, an NCAA-tournament game on TV, and having barely heard of him before that game (just that he played for Marquette, and was one of their better players, I think); and I also picked Andrew Bogut as a top-10 NBA draft, based on only part of one game I saw him play, again an NCAA-tournament game on TV, even though he was having difficulty scoring in that game (he had some of the best court vision and accurate passing I'd seen since Larry Bird), and this time having never heard of him before (and not listening to the announcers or analysts during the game).

If they saw the product, the posters would realize that it is an organized rec league- plain and simple. If that is what you like, great, have a great time at the old ball game. But after seeing the product in different venues and in different years, I find it hard to believe that people pay money to buy season tickets or sponsorships for this league.

I would not claim that the IBL, even its "cream", is on par with the NBA, or even the NBDL, but I do know that in one exhibition game, an IBL team beat an ABA (or was that USBL?) team by more than 20 points (I think this took place in 2005). I also know that several IBL players are quite good, and in my opinion would probably be at least worthy "bench-warmers" on some NBA teams (again, just my opinion).

And as far as the Express is concerned, they have a former Indiana All-State and Division I player who has played in several foreign countries, either 7 or 8 other players who played Division I basketball (none "all-stars", but several starters, I believe), plus a few talented "stragglers". Last year, one of their best players was a former NAIA All-American, who in my opinion should have been in the NBA (he is now an assistant coach at a Division I school). Their "product" also seems rather "professional": decent cheerleaders, a cute mascot, nice-looking ads and stickers, an increasing-in-variety-and-quality concession (barbecue-ribs recently being offered, if I understood correctly), a coach with D-I and professional overseas playing experience, plus D-I assistant coaching experience, etc., a large gym (seating capacity of 7300, though definitely not a modern "arena").

On top of all this is how hard the players play. Fighting for loose balls, taking charges, playing defense, etc.. Do you know how boring watching incredibly overpaid, incredibly talented, uncaring NBA players can be?

On some sports forum or 'nuther somewhere in Internet-land, you can watch a video-clip of the Elkhart Express, with portions from several of their games from last year. That might give you a better feel for at least the Express. In my opinion, the Express, at least, are far more than a glorified rec-league team. (Once again, though, I don't pretend to be any sort of expert.)

Now, the guys you mentioned, the majority play on the west coast. That is the strongest of the IBL, but [you] have to admit that if you look at the majority of these rosters, these players are from NAIA and Division three schools.
As I mentioned above, the Express have something like 7-9 former D-I players, though none were "all-stars" in D-I play, I don't think. However, I can absolutely say that their best player (or one of their two best players) from last year was a former NAIA All-American. And I've personally seen Notre Dame play basketball (live and in person, as well as on TV), and the person I am describing, if he had played for Notre Dame, probably would have been a Big East All-Star (in my opinion). My point being, there isn't necessarily a clear difference in quality between D-I players and those who played in "lower echelons". Perhaps generally, but not exclusively (nor even mostly, maybe).

If that is the level of basketball you like - great. But it is not and I repeat not the level of talent of the USBL. Not by a long shot.
I'm not that familiar with the USBL. I did read in an article by a local sports writer (who writes most of the articles about the Express for the local [Elkhart] paper) that in a conversation he had with someone (a scout? a coach?) from out of town who attended one of the Express' games, the "out-of-towner" stated that the level of talent he had seen in the IBL was a "hair's breadth" lower than that in the USBL; and the writer agreed. Thus, your point that the IBL might not be up to the talent-level of the USBL would seem valid, but your claims that the talent-level of the IBL is less than that of the USBL "by a long shot" are apparently exaggerated. If their talent-levels, as leagues, are indeed separated by only a "hair's breadth", then the talent-level of the most talented in each league are probably roughly equivalent, and the most talented teams in the IBL are quite probably just as talented as the most talented teams in the USBL. The best teams in the IBL would therefore likely be competitive with the best teams in the USBL. (Come to think of it, though, I might be confusing the ABA for the USBL. I'll have to try to do some checking.)

[Douglas]

one way:

Whatever is reported attendance-wise, usually you should take half.
I don't know about other teams/attendances, but in the half-dozen or so Elkhart Express home games I've attended, I'd say the reported attendance was fairly accurate. (I gauged the attendance by estimating the percentage of different areas which were occupied, and estimated the percentage of 7300 [total possible seating] which each different area could hold. Not a precise science, but I could get a pretty good feel for when the gym seemed more than half full, as it did on at least one [announced attendance of 5444], maybe another, occasion.) I do recall one instance where the Elkhart paper reported one figure, and the South Bend (a neighboring city) paper reported a different figure, for the attendance at one game. I don't recall which reported the higher figure, but it was noticeably more than how many had attended. Might have been a typo, I suppose.

Currently (as of May 9, 2007), the Express are averaging about 2900 per home game. This includes the opening game against 7'9" Sun Ming-Ming and the Dwarves, which had 5444 in attendance. Discounting that initial game, the average home attendance has been around 2475, right around what it was last year, I believe.

[mammal]

-I have seen many IBL games as a fan and as a color commentator for radio and television.
-The IBL product is a solid minor league product. The level of play and officiating has improved every year.
-Teams play all of their games, their schedules are not suggestions like the ABA. There are a few exceptions, but not many.
-It's probably the best run minor league. Commissionr Duilio is hands on and knows what is going on with all the teams.
-Is it perfect? Of course not.
-The IBL is in much better shape than the USBL and ABA. Don't know much about the WBA but it seems to be a very regional leauge.

[one way]

Give some opinions and boy they come out with buring torches. Well let us talk some facts ( I am going to need some help here). If some posters can fill in the info where needed- thanks. In 2005 your IBL top scorers were- J. Harris who played for San Jose. By the way, San Jose is no longer part of the IBL. A. Thomas for San Jose. he is followed by A. Champion and Terrence McGhee who played for the now defunct Des Moines program. Aside of Harris, I never heard of any of these guys and quick searches showed that they have not played anywhere. Harris I think was a bit player in the CBA. In 2006 Eric Fiegi led the league. I do believe that he is overseas. He is followed by J. Bledsoe who is not playing anywhere. He is followed by Cory Coe of the now defunct Lansing club and Ryan Edwards of the now defunct Lake County Club. Are we seeing a pattern here???? Now for 2007. I am unfamiliar with David Lucas, R. Powell, E. WEaver and B. Walker. Of course the clubs that they are with are still playing but based upon past hisory, one half will fold. Where have they played- any NBA summer leagues? Any CBA or NBDL clubs??? How about any Euro Basket teams?? Let us not be mean spirited, I am just looking for the teams where these players played after of before the IBL. THanks

[Pounder]

Torches?

Or just frustrated that we're not in lockstep with your opinion?

[BreakersFan]

Give some opinions and boy they come out with buring torches. Well let us talk some facts ( I am going to need some help here). If some posters can fill in the info where needed- thanks. In 2005 your IBL top scorers were- J. Harris who played for San Jose. By the way, San Jose is no longer part of the IBL. A. Thomas for San Jose. he is followed by A. Champion and Terrence McGhee who played for the now defunct Des Moines program. Aside of Harris, I never heard of any of these guys and quick searches showed that they have not played anywhere. Harris I think was a bit player in the CBA. In 2006 Eric Fiegi led the league. I do believe that he is overseas. He is followed by J. Bledsoe who is not playing anywhere. He is followed by Cory Coe of the now defunct Lansing club and Ryan Edwards of the now defunct Lake County Club. Are we seeing a pattern here???? Now for 2007. I am unfamiliar with David Lucas, R. Powell, E. WEaver and B. Walker. Of course the clubs that they are with are still playing but based upon past hisory, one half will fold. Where have they played- any NBA summer leagues? Any CBA or NBDL clubs??? How about any Euro Basket teams?? Let us not be mean spirited, I am just looking for the teams where these players played after of before the IBL. THanks

Just for the record, seven teams have played in the IBL for at least three seasons. Four teams have played in the USBL for at least three seasons. Fourteen 2006 IBL teams have returned for 2007. Four 2006 USBL teams returned for 2007.

And I say again that casual fans don't come because of the quality of play in ANY minor league sport. They don't even know the NBA summer league exists, let alone who has played in it. So that has no relevance on business success. It is far better to have a league that actually plays nearly all of its announced schedule than one that plays half of it. In a business sense, the IBL is so far ahead of the USBL. The USBL may not even be back next year.

[Douglas]

one way:

Give some opinions and boy they come out with bur[n]ing torches.
Your "opinions" of the IBL were rather demeaning, and were not couched in any sort of grace, kindness, or charity. And, those weren't burning torches - those were my eyes, ablaze with righteous indignation.

[CentralOregonFan]

Never heard of David Lucas?...All Pac-10..telling me that your real expertise (so-called) is of minor league basketball, not overall basketball. I believe his basketball contract, along with God Shammgod's are owned by an agency that is connected with the NBA team-camp system, not the NBDL. It is based out of Springfield, Oregon.


Nonetheless, this thread has quickly gotten boring. It's pro basketball regardless of anything....guys that are good at basketball (good meaning better than you in your best dream) are getting paid to play and people are in turn paying to watch them...and many teams are getting over 100k in sponsorships and advertising trade.

[MJHankel]

Just curious, I know abselutely nothing about the IBL and I was wondering a couple things.

Is there an actual salary cap?
Are coaches actually all volunteer?


Personally, I would agree that the casual fan could not care less about a lot.

The fact that one team plays in a sub-par gymnasium and another plays in an arena does not much matter. That is a case of "to each their own". It really ownly matters for the people watching the game there. I would say that the dimensions of the court do matter a bit though.

Frankly, from an outside point of view the USBL does seem to have better quallity play, but the IBL delivers. The IBL actually brings in fans. I do think that the IBL could make a few changes but either way they are doing quite good.

[Pounder]

Is there an actual salary cap?

I believe so.

Are coaches actually all volunteer?

I don't buy that one, but I doubt a coach makes a living off this.

Frankly, from an outside point of view the USBL does seem to have better quallity play, but the IBL delivers. The IBL actually brings in fans. I do think that the IBL could make a few changes but either way they are doing quite good.

I don't think the average IBL team draws better than the average USBL team... but that's not the point. I think those averages are close. The IBL plays the economy of scale that I'm sure the ABA envies. The USBL tries to play a national schedule on the same budget, and it's killing them.

[one way]

I'm just trying to fill in my stat book. Does anyone have the results of the April 8 game- Elgin at Grand Rapids? How about April 21 Holland at Grand Rapids? Or April 29 Elkhart vs. Grand Rapids? If at all posibble- alittle help with April 7 Santa Bar. vs. Chico. There are a few more, but this will be a start.

[mammal]

One way....go to www.iblhoopsonline.com. The IBL does a great job of updating scores.

Not all coaches are volunteer, some are. I am very pro IBL, but they do need to upgrade the coaching. This is one area that they could really improve.