Not excited about the Pats USBL team

[bowlboundgman]

I love the pats and make it to 90 of the CBA games. However, I was not impressed with the talent/excitement or I should say the lack of during the first 2 home games. I am also finding it hard to follow the team on the road. TV and the TU has limited or no coverage. I hope this does not hurt the fan base for the CBA. I will continue to support the patroons when they are home. Something needs to change.

[HAC]

I watched them last night. They didn't excite me, and they didn't seem too excited with themselves either.

[panchess]

..I am assuming when it all started that the idea was that the Pats would just bring the core of their CBA team to the USBL, and most of the fan base would follow along too.

Well, that didn't work, in part due to the Micheal Ray fiasco, but also in part due to the poor promotion and liftoff by the team. CBA Patroons are all over the USBL, with Gordy Klaiber in Brooklyn, Chris Sockwell in Dodge City, Jamario Moon in Gary, and Marvin Phillips here.

Having two teams in their division fold right off the bat and the first home game be basically an inter-squad scrimmage didn't help perception either. Tim Wilkin tore the first game apart in the Times-Union, and the team hasn't gotten much coverage since. No beer vendors in the stands, no programs and the cheesy uniforms didn't help the perception that this is bush league either.

It is noticeable that their schedule isn't listed in the Times-Union sports page two with the other pro teams in town and NYC.

It may be possible to re-launch the team once the schedule is finalized, but the USBL side of things simply might not work in Albany.

[HAC]

..I am assuming when it all started that the idea was that the Pats would just bring the core of their CBA team to the USBL, and most of the fan base would follow along too.

Well, that didn't work, in part due to the Micheal Ray fiasco, but also in part due to the poor promotion and liftoff by the team. CBA Patroons are all over the USBL, with Gordy Klaiber in Brooklyn, Chris Sockwell in Dodge City, Jamario Moon in Gary, and Marvin Phillips here.

Having two teams in their division fold right off the bat and the first home game be basically an inter-squad scrimmage didn't help perception either. Tim Wilkin tore the first game apart in the Times-Union, and the team hasn't gotten much coverage since. No beer vendors in the stands, no programs and the cheesy uniforms didn't help the perception that this is bush league either.

It is noticeable that their schedule isn't listed in the Times-Union sports page two with the other pro teams in town and NYC.

It may be possible to re-launch the team once the schedule is finalized, but the USBL side of things simply might not work in Albany.

Are those different uniforms than what they wear in the CBA?

Does the coach ever, um, coach or is he just a lineup facilitator? He didn't show much energy.

[one way]

I have to agree with HAC. Albany hired the wrong Coach who brought in the wrong players. Lets face fact, you have to bring it in the USBL. Gary and Dodge City are stacked. Jim Coyne underestimated the league and they are now paying the price. Alabany with beat the Delawares and some of these lesser teams, but will not win in the post season. They really could have had a great situation with teh CBA and the USBL teams working hand in hand- but now all they have is a fiasco. LOSERS

[bectond]

I agree with one way, the move to play in both leagues only makes sense if the majority of the CBA players play on the USBL team. The top guys were not brought back, which won't help the CBA off season ticket drive or the USBL win-loss record. I thought they were using the USBL to enhance the CBA product by:
1- getting the first look at some rookies fresh out of college to gage if they are worth bringing back in the fall.
2- getting a look at ABA/ CBA/ Overseas Free agents to gage if they are worth bringing back in the fall.
3- Keeping the teams CBA stars in town to push CBA season tickets during the off-season.
4- Using the USBL as an extended off-season mini-camp for the CBA Patroons.

The coach was a last minute scab replacement, so I would not come down to hard on the GM. Richardson put the organization in a tough situation.

[HAC]

IMO, I don't think trying to merge (for lack of a better term in my pea brain) CBA and USBL franchises will work.

1) some guys are ready to take a break, or i would think the better ones who want to play would head overseas if possible;

2) if I'm a fan, I want to see some different players and coaches, not just another season with the same guys;

3) and I've never seen a CBA team so I can't judge the quality, but I don't see the USBL has a training ground for them.

[panchess]

..he looked like he works with the players well. He isn't screaming and yelling every five seconds like Micheal Ray, but that is OK. Neither is Phil Jackson.

We'll see in the next couple weeks.

Basically, the Patroons played one legit home game, won it, and went 1-5 on a six games in six cities in six days road trip.

They are still in good shape to win their division, though it is a little strange that the Patroons have played eight games and Brooklyn has played one. You win your division, you had a good season, regardless.

[TEN]

Why was Brooklyn/Albany postponed last night? Those are supposed to be the two solvent teams in the East...

[bectond]

IMO, I don't think trying to merge (for lack of a better term in my pea brain) CBA and USBL franchises will work.

I've never seen a CBA team so I can't judge the quality, but I don't see the USBL has a training ground for them.

In the past players played in the USBL to be seen by CBA clubs, now they are most likely looking to get seen by NBDL guys. Once a player gets near NBA call-up level, they normally skip the USBL and play in the NBA summer leagues. If the USBL is not a gage to see if a player is worthy of playing at a higher minor league level, what is it's purpose?

[HAC]

In the past players played in the USBL to be seen by CBA clubs, now they are most likely looking to get seen by NBDL guys. Once a player gets near NBA call-up level, they normally skip the USBL and play in the NBA summer leagues. If the USBL is not a gage to see if a player is worthy of playing at a higher minor league level, what is it's purpose?

I was comparing only the USBL to the CBA. I was referencing the post "Using the USBL as an extended off-season mini-camp for the CBA Patroons."

As I said, is the CBA better than the USBL? Does the best team in the CBA walk over the best team in the USBL? I don't know.

The USBL is a short filler season. I've seen a few scouts at the postseason tourney, but I doubt many of the regular season games are scouted.

I'd guess a bunch are just trying to stay away from the 9 to 5 because they know moving up isn't a realistic option.

And, right now, I'm not sure if the USBL knows what purpose it serves. :)

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Why was Brooklyn/Albany postponed last night? Those are supposed to be the two solvent teams in the East...

I'm asking the same question. Albany gave the reason for postponing the Friday game as travel difficulties. Thursday was a travel day, so go figure.

HAC,
When the USBL begins signing NBADL players, then it's a safe assumption that the USBL is more talent laden than the CBA. This spring league already employs some of the top players from the CBA, ABA, and overseas.

[HAC]

HAC,
When the USBL begins signing NBADL players, then it's a safe assumption that the USBL is more talent laden than the CBA. This spring league already employs some of the top players from the CBA, ABA, and overseas.

Depends on the particular players. I've seen NBDL guys come into the USBL who weren't anything special.

Obviously players in the USBL are from the CBA, ABA and overseas, where else would they come from? Whether they're the top ones is a matter of opinion.

Albany had nothing to speak of, and I've seen plenty of Corey Hightower over the years. Delaware had one pretty good guy and a bunch of average ones running around him.

I haven't seen Gary, just know they lost at home to Kansas, who look to be good but we'll see how much they develop.

I hope to see Dodge tonight --- nephew is being confirmed, so might miss game.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Depends on the particular players. I've seen NBDL guys come into the USBL who weren't anything special.

Obviously players in the USBL are from the CBA, ABA and overseas, where else would they come from? Whether they're the top ones is a matter of opinion.

Albany had nothing to speak of, and I've seen plenty of Corey Hightower over the years. Delaware had one pretty good guy and a bunch of average ones running around him.

I haven't seen Gary, just know they lost at home to Kansas, who look to be good but we'll see how much they develop.

I hope to see Dodge tonight --- nephew is being confirmed, so might miss game.

Where else would they come from? Players could come exclusively from free agent camps...they just don't. It's more than a matter of opinion as to whether some of the top CBA and ABA players are currently in the USBL. It's a fact based on the number of CBA and ABA all*stars on USBL rosters. Some of those all*stars are getting very little playing time in the USBL.

Albany is a bad example. Something is not quite right about that organization.

[HAC]

Where else would they come from? Players could come exclusively from free agent camps...they just don't. It's more than a matter of opinion as to whether some of the top CBA and ABA players are currently in the USBL. It's a fact based on the number of CBA and ABA all*stars on USBL rosters. Some of those all*stars are getting very little playing time in the USBL.

Albany is a bad example. Something is not quite right about that organization.

Where are you going with this? I know players could from free agents, hell they could come from high school and straight from college, but since for the most part "they just don't" those options are a non-factor.

My question is in reference to the post about a USBL team being a training camp/mini-camp for a CBA team.

I don't give two cents about who is labeled all-CBA and even less about somebody named all-ABA. That doesn't necessarily make them the "best players" and/or "best prospects" in those leagues.

As with any sport, it's a lot about having the right player in the right system.

I'm not sure the ABA should even be considered a league. (Insert USBL joke here.)

The better players no longer come to the USBL. They go overseas or just take time off. The top USBL teams eight, nine, ten years ago were far superior to those of the past few.

[panchess]

..if it was Albany. The Patroons originally had the Kansas game on Thursday night, and might have booked Friday tickets out of there. They did not have today's game in Brooklyn on their web site, and it's gone from the USBL schedule too. Brooklyn had the date, but no definite location, for the game.

The Brooklyn web site indicated the revised schedule would be out by tomorrow. We'll see.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Where are you going with this? I know players could from free agents, hell they could come from high school and straight from college, but since for the most part "they just don't" those options are a non-factor.

My question is in reference to the post about a USBL team being a training camp/mini-camp for a CBA team.

I don't give two cents about who is labeled all-CBA and even less about somebody named all-ABA. That doesn't necessarily make them the "best players" and/or "best prospects" in those leagues.

As with any sport, it's a lot about having the right player in the right system.

I'm not sure the ABA should even be considered a league. (Insert USBL joke here.)

The better players no longer come to the USBL. They go overseas or just take time off. The top USBL teams eight, nine, ten years ago were far superior to those of the past few.

Hmmmmmm. I'm not going anywhere with this. Just following YOUR lead. The better players no longer come to the USBL?!? The top USBL teams eight, nine, ten years ago were far superior?!? That's all relative. I didn't follow minor league sports eight, nine, ten years ago and only started following the USBL this season. I only know what's going on now. There are quite a few CBA and ABA all*stars in the USBL now and NBADL guys are also expected to join. Someone thought these players were special to select them as all*stars and to select them for the NBADL.

[bowlboundgman]

I may have missed it. But the Albany Times Union has not had any information about the Pats for some time. They don't even have the standings posted. Lets face it. How much money has Coyne and the Pats put into the promoting the either the CBA or USBL. They depend on the free press in the local papers to advertise the team.
On a another note can the CBA pull the better teams from the USBL. They have to be able to make some type of schedule and season start date compromise. I am concerned that the sad state of the USBL (which appears to be is a joke) will hurt the CBA pats team. The only teams that really seem to be taking this seriously are the Steelheads.

[HAC]

Dodge, Oklahoma and Kansas take the USBL seriously, too.

When a bunch of NBDL players actually sign with USBL teams, maybe then we can compare the leagues.

But as you know, teams saying players are coming and actually getting them are two different things.

And, IMO, just cause one team might grab two or three doesn't necessarily mean anything except that somebody as a connection.

I don't see Delaware, Jackson or Albany putting out enough money to sign anybody. Kansas isn't looking for anybody. Brooklyn doesn't typically grab NBDL players.

The Cagerz don't have any CBA or ABA all-stars. I watched Rob Griffin and Marlowe Currie last season and they were middle of the line players in the USBL, but I think they did better in the CBA.

I'm trying to say I think the USBL is probably better overall than the CBA, which is why I found it odd that a CBA club would use a USBL club as a mini camp.

And people can forget about the USBL teams joining the CBA.They're just not going to play that time of the year.

I don't put stock in the minor league all-star teams as determing a players worth. I've seen all-USBL teams with some suspect players.

(By the way, since it's hard to tell when reading, I'm in no way trying to argue . I think we're confused as to the point each of us is trying to discuss.)

Also, Cagerz gagged one at home last night against a very average Dodge team. Up 51-39 at the half and then just staggered the rest of the way. Jacked up too many perimeter shots and the interior defense disappeared. Dodge didn't panic and just plugged away.

[MJHankel]

I would tend to agree about the USBL teams joining the CBA. A prime example would be the Steelheads (switching from CBA to USBL). The fact is, sometimes spring basketball has a better chance than fall (depending on situation. Venues are generally more available in the spring. They do not have to compete with highschool, college, and pro basketball for fans. Logically the spring league concept seems that it should work. The biggest problem is that the USBL season overlaps baseball season and people wanna be outside. Not to mention, it seems that minor league baseball tends to run things better.

One reason why few would want to switch is the venue thing. Hockey is a better draw, in most cases and completely overlaps the CBA schedule. Rockford is a good example of this. They had trouble getting playing time. They have expressed interest in a future USBL franchise for this reason. Switching back to CBA would miss the entire point.

[nksports]

Salina had a team in a winter league a couple of years ago and didn't draw diddly. You would be competing for fans against K-State (less than an hour away), Kansas Wesleyan, Brown Mackie, Salina South and Salina Central, which all draw well.
You would lose dates at the Bicentennial Center to the state volleyball tournament at the beginning of the season, an early-season high school tournament in December, sub-state, state and the women's Division I junior college national tournament in March.
In Dodge City, you would lose nearly all your dates to Dodge City Community College, as well as mid-season and post-season high school tournaments, unless you wanted to play all of your home dates on Mondays, Wednesdays and Sundays (You might be able to play some games at Saint Mary of the Plains, but it's been more than a decade since that school closed, so I don't know what shape their gym is in.)

I don't know who uses Enid's arena in the winter. I know they have a public and a private high school, along with a junior college (I think they play at the old Phillips University gym).

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Yep, I think the USBL is a better league than the CBA also (for the reasons I mentioned before). Actually, it would make more sense for a CBA team to switch to the USBL for the cost savings. The prestige of belonging to the CBA left back when those teams left for the D-league. Now all the USBL needs to do is set the schedule months earlier than it set the schedule this season. Setting the schedule earlier means setting the number of teams earlier too--more organization.

It would be exciting to have the Rockford Lightning in the USBL. They already have somewhat of a fan base and Judy Timpe (former CBA Lightning owner) said she would be interested in being a minority owner of a new Rockford team. One major thing would have to happen first--the investment banker (or should I say, the guy who claims to be an investment banker) who wants to bring back the Lightning would actually need to find some cash to operate a team. :roll:

[HAC]

The schedule is definitely a problem. It needs out much earlier, I discussed that again with some Cager people last night after hearing season ticket sales were just 280-something, down about 100 from the previous year, which was down about 90 from the year before.

IMO, I don't what you name the league, but a Midwest summer-spring league is the best option for many cities.

[panchess]

..it's been hard to generate news on the road in a timely matter for the Patroons to get anywhere with the Times-Union.

Even the Conquest game was "staff reports" from Fort Wayne on Monday, and the af2 team is job one this time of year.

Rockford was a model franchise, put out of business at least in part because of the lack of dates at the MetroCenter. That is one big advantage of spring basketball, though April dates may still be tough.