USBL decends into chaos.

[Paul S]

What a circus.

The Boston thing was an disaster, but to perpetuate the disaster by "moving" the team to NJ and then kill the LI Primetime too is beyond bad.

According to the SEC filing the USBL has 2.2 million in future business losses yet to write off against profits. It also states they got............you ready for this..........

- $5000 dollars in yearly dues from the existing teams.
- It says in May of 2006 they lost a $186,378 in an lawsuit to the LLC that owned the Westchester Wildfire. THe Wildfire says the league failed to make a payment due of $25,000 and failed to repurchase the Westchester Wildlife franchise for $150,000.
- Even though the judgement was entered in May of 2006 the league wasn't aware of this until December of 2006
- The mother of the two directors is lending money at 6% to the league to help keep it afloat.
- The franchises are generating lower revenues due to poor attendance at games and therefore can not pay their annual royalty fees to the League


In my opinion the whole idea of the Westchester Wildfire, LI Primetime and NJ Meteors was too have a 2nd team to play on expensive road trips to play the Brookyn Kings.

I love this league and want it to succeed. The filing also indicates very clearly that the Meisenheimers have put a ton of time, effort and their own money into keeping this alive so I thank them immensely.

But TEN's comments that the MidWest teams are at the end of their rope is terrible. I wanted to go to the Boston games, looked for websites, announcements you name it, nothing. I honestly think the best thing that can happen is if the league hires a true staff and commissioner to run this right and not as a hobby.

[The Magician]

I honestly think the best thing that can happen is if the league hires a true staff and commissioner to run this right and not as a hobby.

Is this not the USBL Staff? Are there some weak links in the chain?

Daniel Meisenheimer, III
Chairman and Commissioner

Richard Meisenheimer
Vice President of Finance

Ed Krinsky
Director of Operations

Lynn Casa
Director of Administration

Jacob Gordon
Director of Public Relations

Al Mayles
Supervisor of Officials

Mark Argenziano
Director of Scouting

Jeff Argenziano
Director of Player Evaluation

Tom Hughes
Expansion Coordinator-Southeast Region

Terry Layton
Expansion Coordinator-Midwest Region

Dwayne Jacobs
Expansion Agent

[TEN]

Just to clarify...Man, I've clarified a lot today...

When I say the midwest teams are at the end of their rope....I don't want to imply that in financial terms..."end of their rope" refers to "running out of patience" waiting for the league to get better.

"The franchises are generating lower revenues due to poor attendance at games and therefore can not pay their annual royalty fees to the League."

Not exactly true....It's more of a "what the heck are we getting for our money kind of vibe"...although it sounds like to me the Dodge City ownership group is jerking the league around pretty good...which wouldn't be the first time they've done that!

[HAC]

Just to clarify...Man, I've clarified a lot today...

When I say the midwest teams are at the end of their rope....I don't want to imply that in financial terms..."end of their rope" refers to "running out of patience" waiting for the league to get better.

"The franchises are generating lower revenues due to poor attendance at games and therefore can not pay their annual royalty fees to the League."

Not exactly true....It's more of a "what the heck are we getting for our money kind of vibe"...although it sounds like to me the Dodge City ownership group is jerking the league around pretty good...which wouldn't be the first time they've done that!

At least somebody's clarifying something. :)

Am I reading that right, the league collected just $5,000 in annual dues? Are dues about $25,000 per team?

[BreakersFan]

Is this not the USBL Staff? Are there some weak links in the chain?

Daniel Meisenheimer, III
Chairman and Commissioner

Richard Meisenheimer
Vice President of Finance

Ed Krinsky
Director of Operations

Lynn Casa
Director of Administration

Jacob Gordon
Director of Public Relations

Al Mayles
Supervisor of Officials

Mark Argenziano
Director of Scouting

Jeff Argenziano
Director of Player Evaluation

Tom Hughes
Expansion Coordinator-Southeast Region

Terry Layton
Expansion Coordinator-Midwest Region

Dwayne Jacobs
Expansion Agent

I don't think any of them are full time - they just sort of do it on the side.

[BreakersFan]

What a circus.

The Boston thing was an disaster, but to perpetuate the disaster by "moving" the team to NJ and then kill the LI Primetime too is beyond bad.

According to the SEC filing the USBL has 2.2 million in future business losses yet to write off against profits. It also states they got............you ready for this..........

- $5000 dollars in yearly dues from the existing teams.
- It says in May of 2006 they lost a $186,378 in an lawsuit to the LLC that owned the Westchester Wildfire. THe Wildfire says the league failed to make a payment due of $25,000 and failed to repurchase the Westchester Wildlife franchise for $150,000.
- Even though the judgement was entered in May of 2006 the league wasn't aware of this until December of 2006
- The mother of the two directors is lending money at 6% to the league to help keep it afloat.
- The franchises are generating lower revenues due to poor attendance at games and therefore can not pay their annual royalty fees to the League


In my opinion the whole idea of the Westchester Wildfire, LI Primetime and NJ Meteors was too have a 2nd team to play on expensive road trips to play the Brookyn Kings.

I love this league and want it to succeed. The filing also indicates very clearly that the Meisenheimers have put a ton of time, effort and their own money into keeping this alive so I thank them immensely.

But TEN's comments that the MidWest teams are at the end of their rope is terrible. I wanted to go to the Boston games, looked for websites, announcements you name it, nothing. I honestly think the best thing that can happen is if the league hires a true staff and commissioner to run this right and not as a hobby.

I agree with you 100%. The problem is that the business model doesn't work. These teams are too expensive to operate based on revenue you get from 15 home games (majority of which are not on Friday or Saturday).

72 teams in 22 years bears testimony. And in the last 12 months alone, 5 of 13 teams have failed (Cranes, Primetime, Meteors, Breakers, ValleyDawgs). Especially when you are playing in community centers that seat 1000 people on bleachers (eastern teams)

[BreakersFan]

We're just 8 days into the season..... We have the Primetime and Freedom/Meteors folded, the Wildcats alienating their few fans and now playing in a gym that seats 400, the Stars wandering the country in two vans after being given an incorrect schedule... What's next???

[nksports]

If the league can make it through the season (a big if right now), the league needs to be reorganized as a midwest entity. Period. For the last three or four years, no team other than Salina, Dodge City and Enid have been viable at the box office.
Add three to five cities in the same size with decent facilities — Hutchinson, Kan., Grand Island, Neb. (a solid business plan at the league level might even bring back the Cranes), Bartlesville, Okla., Joplin, Mo.-Pittsburg, Kan., and Garden City or Hays, Kan., all come to mind immediately.
Use the same on-court formula of NBA prospects mixed with good regional and local talent, then market like all getout.

Then you have a fighting chance.

[HAC]

If the league can make it through the season (a big if right now), the league needs to be reorganized as a midwest entity. Period. For the last three or four years, no team other than Salina, Dodge City and Enid have been viable at the box office.
Add three to five cities in the same size with decent facilities — Hutchinson, Kan., Grand Island, Neb. (a solid business plan at the league level might even bring back the Cranes), Bartlesville, Okla., Joplin, Mo.-Pittsburg, Kan., and Garden City or Hays, Kan., all come to mind immediately.
Use the same on-court formula of NBA prospects mixed with good regional and local talent, then market like all getout.

Then you have a fighting chance.

Whatever returns next season -- if anything -- won't be the USBL unless the Meisenheimers simply give them the name and that won't happen.

I see Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri and maybe even northern Texas or Colorado as possibilities, and possibly Gary. I don't think you can squeeze another franchise into Kansas.

[BreakersFan]

Whatever returns next season -- if anything -- won't be the USBL unless the Meisenheimers simply give them the name and that won't happen.

I see Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri and maybe even northern Texas or Colorado as possibilities, and possibly Gary. I don't think you can squeeze another franchise into Kansas.

I don't think the midewest teams gain anything by staying in or retaining the USBL name. The image of the league is so shoddy now why would they want it?

[MJHankel]

Well, maybe they can bring back the "Midwestern Basketball Association" name for temporary purposes.

I am just musing. Though, I do think that it would be logical for the NBA to start an affiliated (at least partially) spring league. Though that idea is not specifically related to the USBL teams. It might make the spring teams more financially feasable though.

[HAC]

Well, maybe they can bring back the "Midwestern Basketball Association" name for temporary purposes.

I am just musing. Though, I do think that it would be logical for the NBA to start an affiliated (at least partially) spring league. Though that idea is not specifically related to the USBL teams. It might make the spring teams more financially feasable though.

You'd like to think the NBA might have some interest in a spring-summer league, but with the D-League and, gulp, WNBA, they're probably done with money losers.

[apeman33]

If the league can make it through the season (a big if right now), the league needs to be reorganized as a midwest entity. Period. For the last three or four years, no team other than Salina, Dodge City and Enid have been viable at the box office.
Add three to five cities in the same size with decent facilities — Hutchinson, Kan., Grand Island, Neb. (a solid business plan at the league level might even bring back the Cranes), Bartlesville, Okla., Joplin, Mo.-Pittsburg, Kan., and Garden City or Hays, Kan., all come to mind immediately.
Use the same on-court formula of NBA prospects mixed with good regional and local talent, then market like all getout.

Then you have a fighting chance.

Check out this list and see if you think it would work...

West
Colo. Spgs.
Dodge City
Hutchinson
Wichita Falls
Pueblo

East
NW Arkansas
SW Missouri
Kansas
Nebraska
Oklahoma

Other/future possibilities
Casper or Cheyenne
Rapid City
Fort Collins(?...probably too many minor league hoop and hockey teams in the Denver area already)

"Nebraska" would be a new Cranes team but playing out of either Grand Island or Hastings instead of Kearney.
"NW Arkansas" would be Fort Smith, Springdale or Rogers.
"SW Missouri" would be either Joplin or Springfield. In Joplin, it would be the only game in town at that time of year.

I wouldn't try St. Joseph again. I don't think Bartlesville is a good sports town from what I know of it. And I don't think you could have teams in Dodge City AND Garden City. I'd try to keep teams in an area where it wouldn't take more than two days to get from one place to another to start a road trip. Colo. Springs to NW Arkansas would be a bad trip, but you'd start them out in Kansas, say, then bring them around in a five-game road swing (Neb., Kan., Mo., Ark., Okla. and then back home).

Workable or wack? You decide...

[HAC]

Check out this list and see if you think it would work...

West
Colo. Spgs.
Dodge City
Hutchinson
Wichita Falls
Pueblo

East
NW Arkansas
SW Missouri
Kansas
Nebraska
Oklahoma

Other/future possibilities
Casper or Cheyenne
Rapid City
Fort Collins(?...probably too many minor league hoop and hockey teams in the Denver area already)

"Nebraska" would be a new Cranes team but playing out of either Grand Island or Hastings instead of Kearney.
"NW Arkansas" would be Fort Smith, Springdale or Rogers.
"SW Missouri" would be either Joplin or Springfield. In Joplin, it would be the only game in town at that time of year.

I wouldn't try St. Joseph again. I don't think Bartlesville is a good sports town from what I know of it. And I don't think you could have teams in Dodge City AND Garden City. I'd try to keep teams in an area where it wouldn't take more than two days to get from one place to another to start a road trip. Colo. Springs to NW Arkansas would be a bad trip, but you'd start them out in Kansas, say, then bring them around in a five-game road swing (Neb., Kan., Mo., Ark., Okla. and then back home).

Workable or wack? You decide...

Anything is workable if you have the right ownership in those cities.

I don't think Hutch would support a team. They're juco fanatics there.

[TEN]

Some problems with venues....

Garden City is too close to Dodge
Hutch Sports Arena doesn't have air conditioning (could play at the high school possibly)
Gross Coliseum in Hays doesn't have air conditioning...
Grand Island might be good....Hastings has a very nice small facility at the college...

One place that was interested at one time...and has a great facility...Emporia KS...

Also Lawton Oklahoma has a 2500 seat facility...Muskogee has a nice place...

[panchess]

..on the Kings web site schedule, but not the Patroons. Oops.

Could this be a home-and-home on Friday in Albany and Saturday in Brooklyn? Probably.

That would leave three road make-ups for Albany, which probably will be done on the way to Enid for the tournament. As scheduled, Albany ends a week before the Midwestern teams.

[panchess]

..Dennis Traux mentioned a possible expansion team "somewhere in Oklahoma" for next season. Could Lawton or Muskogee be one of the sites?

I am guessing the CBA is monitoring the USBL situation and would be interested in luring some of the better franchises.

[HAC]

..Dennis Traux mentioned a possible expansion team "somewhere in Oklahoma" for next season. Could Lawton or Muskogee be one of the sites?

I am guessing the CBA is monitoring the USBL situation and would be interested in luring some of the better franchises.

The better franchises would include Salina, and I can tell you that Salina isn't going into a fall-winter league. They tried it once and the interest just wasn't there and there's too much competition for the basketball dollar.

[HAC]

Some problems with venues....

Garden City is too close to Dodge
Hutch Sports Arena doesn't have air conditioning (could play at the high school possibly)
Gross Coliseum in Hays doesn't have air conditioning...
Grand Island might be good....Hastings has a very nice small facility at the college...

One place that was interested at one time...and has a great facility...Emporia KS...

Also Lawton Oklahoma has a 2500 seat facility...Muskogee has a nice place...

Hutch High doesn't even play at Hutch High. How funny would it be that a pro team did!

[bectond]

The better franchises would include Salina, and I can tell you that Salina isn't going into a fall-winter league. They tried it once and the interest just wasn't there and there's too much competition for the basketball dollar.

What if a winter league played two half-seasons instead of one full season.

Example: Teams play the first half and the winner is given an automatic berth in the playoffs. The second half could start a week later with additional teams some from the USBL and the winner of the second half would be given an automatic berth in the playoffs.

In this scenario a team from the USBL would only be required to play one half of a season in the CBA Jan 15th-March 15th. 24 games over the course of 8 weeks. That schedule is lighter than the current USBL schedule. When the IBA folded the teams that joined the CBA played a shorter schedule, I wonder any USBL teams would be interested in this zany idea?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

What if a winter league played two half-seasons instead of one full season.

Example: Teams play the first half and the winner is given an automatic berth in the playoffs. The second half could start a week later with additional teams some from the USBL and the winner of the second half would be given an automatic berth in the playoffs.

In this scenario a team from the USBL would only be required to play one half of a season in the CBA Jan 15th-March 15th. 24 games over the course of 8 weeks. That schedule is lighter than the current USBL schedule. When the IBA folded the teams that joined the CBA played a shorter schedule, I wonder any USBL teams would be interested in this zany idea?

Well, you're thinking out of the box (which is a good thing). However, the CBA and USBL share many of the same players. Which team would a player play for during the playoffs, CBA or USBL? The team with the most money? Also, there are many reasons why teams rather play in the spring--venue availability, lack of competition from high school and college hoops, etc.

I don't think any current USBL teams would be interested in your idea. Not even the USBL Patroons.

[panchess]

..but I am surprised a minor league in basketball hasn't tried a "split season" playoff format, with the winner of the first half playing the winner of the second half. There are baseball leagues in the minors (including the Northern League, I believe) that do that. Might add excitement to mid-season.

[nksports]

West
Colo. Spgs.
Dodge City
Hutchinson
Wichita Falls
Pueblo
East
NW Arkansas
SW Missouri
Kansas
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Other/future possibilities
Casper or Cheyenne
Rapid City
Fort Collins(?...probably too many minor league hoop and hockey teams in the Denver area already)

It's not wack. It might be too big to start with. I wouldn't want to start with more than six to 10 teams in a first year. I'd definitely keep the Cagerz, Oklahoma, Dodge City and Hutchinson together because the longest trip in that bunch is Enid to Salina at about 2 1/2 hours. It's a little over two hours from Dodge City to Salina. I picked Hutch, not out of thin air, but they are close to all the other teams, they have two great facilities (the Sports Arena at about 5,000 and the Salt Hawk Activity Center at about 3,000, which is one of the best high school gyms you are ever going to see. It puts some D II and D III facilities to shame). They share the same parking lot.
Hays would fit in that mix, especially with Gross Coliseum, but you have a lot of competition from the baseball Larks.
Wichita has too much summer competition, but Newman has the perfect gym for something like this. Friends is talking about remodeling, and the Wichita Wild owner is building his own barn in near by Park City.
Amarillo might work as well as Wichita Falls.
Grand Island has a brand, spanking new arena and no tenants that I know of.
I don't think Fort Collins would be too out of the question for a summer league. The D League team and all of the hockey are fall and winter entities. There is some summer college baseball in the area, but not much other competition. That would work well with a Casper, Cheyennne and somebody else. Your travel is a little longer.

Rapid City is quite a hump.

To the east, Joplin-Pittsburg has several decent barns (Pitt State, Missouri Southern). Springfield is in the same boat (Missouri State might be a bit big, but you might try Drury). If you could draw the tourist crowd, Branson might work (play at College of the Ozarks, where the NAIA D II tournament is played).
I don't know what kind of facilities they have in Fort Smith. Muskogee might work with that group.

[TEN]

One big thing about college towns...Hays, Joplin, Pittsburgh...etc...A lot of sponsorship revenue goes to those colleges....leaving not much for the local minor league pro team...Who are businesses going to give their dollars to....a college athletic program that has an enrollment of 5000 or more captive students...or a pro basketball team that would draw 2000 on a good night...the money is in the students!

[nksports]

One big thing about college towns...Hays, Joplin, Pittsburgh...etc...A lot of sponsorship revenue goes to those colleges....leaving not much for the local minor league pro team...Who are businesses going to give their dollars to....a college athletic program that has an enrollment of 5000 or more captive students...or a pro basketball team that would draw 2000 on a good night...the money is in the students!

That's why you don't (and here's what Joe and his people don't seem to understand) go into those towns during the traditional winter season.

[TEN]

When you play is beside the point....The college (and students) are there all year round...businesses have a yearly budget....the pro team in a small college town is going to get a pretty small piece of that pie....This league works in smaller cities that have very few sponsorship options.

[bectond]

Well, you're thinking out of the box (which is a good thing). However, the CBA and USBL share many of the same players. Which team would a player play for during the playoffs, CBA or USBL? The team with the most money? Also, there are many reasons why teams rather play in the spring--venue availability, lack of competition from high school and college hoops, etc.

I don't think any current USBL teams would be interested in your idea. Not even the USBL Patroons.

I would assume that players would be required to play for the last team they played for in the playoffs since they would no longer be on the first squad after signing the second contract. From reading the subsequent replies it seems your assessment is correct. (USBL teams won't buy the zany idea) but I think the CBA should look into it. Players freely changing teams (if a tier centered salary system is implemented) and new teams joining at mid-season could add a lot of excitement and increase interest.