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zeke41
03-24-2007, 12:46 PM
Who do you all think will be involved in the front office of the PBL? Salley...Doyle...anyone from the Rochester Management?

What about some of the NBA players (formerrplayers, and their mothers) that own teams. Ann Iverson, Elton Brand and Brooklyn, Kenny Battle??? Those folks HAVE to know they offer Joe Newman a lot more than he can offer them. Think they are PBL bound?

bdaly
03-25-2007, 01:12 AM
I'd be shocked if Doyle isn't a key league executive of this new league. As for the teams, I think the ABA has gone after the big names at any cost, and unfortunately, I think they've brought in teams with those names that are not really committed to putting together a solid organization. So I'd hope they aren't too focused on big names, and they are instead more focused on those with cash in their bank account that are capable of hiring a staff and working with the local community. But, we'll have to wait for the ABA season to conclude and see what's really in store.

bectond
03-26-2007, 02:40 PM
Due to March madness, I have not been keeping up with the now annual upraisings of the ABA's top tier teams. I believe last year it was the Mountian Plains basketball League that was rumored to begin play this year.
I'll believe it when I see it, I just don't believe there are enough stable ABA teams in one section of the country to from a new league. Rochester and Vermont in the NE, Maryland in the mid-atlantic, Wilmington and Jacksonville in the South, Texas in the SW and Tijuana in Mexico does not make for a solid league. Along with the two teams from Canada that makes 9 teams total in all of North America. 10 if Buffalo is counted (but who knows if that franchise will last). Rochester, Wimington and Jacksonville can all merger with an established existing league and after they do the math they most likely will.
That leaves: Montreal, Quebec, Vermont, and Maryland in the east and Tijuana and Texas in the west. I doubt Texas and Tijuana would bit.

So in the end the PBL will enlist weak franchises like Cape Cod, Buffalo, Detriot and Toledo just to get to 8 members.
Result: the same as when some ABA teams founded the United Basketball League or when others re-established the EBA. If it ever gets off the ground it will last half season max.

zeke41
03-26-2007, 02:54 PM
I know of a couple of new teams that will be coming on board, too (possibly myself included). And...trust me, I have a very solid backer that wants to come aboard, and if things go as planned, this PBL will smash all of the other leagues.

It's not like there hasn't been any good homework done. Obviously, the PBL can learn from ALL the mistakes made by ALL the minor leagues, and institute a "Premier" league! ANd tyhe way I'm looking at it, the NBA D-League is predominantly in the west. Who is to say that this may be a stepping stone in establishing a nationwide D-League. We all know that is the intention of the NBA, and if the PBL gets several NBA alumni on board (Salley, Dennis Scott, Kenny Battle, Elton Brand, etc.), that is a high possibility! Just my thoughts, though - all speculation mixed with a few solid facts!

bectond
03-26-2007, 03:17 PM
All I'm saying is that this happens every year. I can't see these low budget teams traveling from Texas to Montreal. Rochester is in the same position San Jose and Florida were in last year. San Jose was about to form a Mountian Plains league and the CBA came in with a sweet deal (or so i've heard). The same thing will happen here, the top teams will get deals they can't refuse from most likely the CBA and the lesser teams will form the PBL. However, the PBL is the ABA, i'm sure these guys won't bring in a solid leader to show them how it's really done. They will continue to practice the same azz backwards blueprint minus Mr.Newman, which will spell Doom within a half a season. This happens every year around this time.

bdaly
03-27-2007, 09:30 AM
The idea of having to enlist anyone is likely false. RNews reported that the league has 16 teams already lined up. Although, I don't have a problem with Buffalo, Detroit, or Cape Cod, as they were all reliable organizations that had very competitive teams (moreso with the first two).

The CBA still has ugly travel issues, so unless they can pull enough teams over to make travel make sense (real regional divisions), I'm not sure there will be much movement. The CBA was pretty aggressive with recruiting last year, and I suspect travel is what held teams back.

mammal
03-27-2007, 03:07 PM
I hope the PBL is succsessful but it reminds me of the UBL....remember the UBL? (Universal Basketball League) Akron bolted from the IBL to be the first team in the new, fantastic, knock your socks, off minor league. The UBL was scheduled to start in the Spring 2007 but it's a no go. Not sure if it will be around next year.

I love minor league sports but travel costs need to be addressed. The IBL does it right by doing the cluster scheduling.

bectond
03-28-2007, 10:10 AM
The idea of having to enlist anyone is likely false. RNews reported that the league has 16 teams already lined up. Although, I don't have a problem with Buffalo, Detroit, or Cape Cod, as they were all reliable organizations that had very competitive teams (moreso with the first two).

The CBA still has ugly travel issues, so unless they can pull enough teams over to make travel make sense (real regional divisions), I'm not sure there will be much movement. The CBA was pretty aggressive with recruiting last year, and I suspect travel is what held teams back.

The CBA can alter the schedule so that Rochester plays Albany and Pittsburgh 11 times each and the rest of the league 26 times (13 home and 13 games road) they did this a couple years back, that would require them to travel to Atlanta once (3 games), Anderson once (2 games), and fly out to the Twin cities, bus to Minot and play (2 games), then bus to Great Falls for (2 games), bus to Butte for (2 games) and bus to Yakima for (2 games) then fly back via Seattle. Total airplane trips: a round trip to Atlanta, a round trip to indy a ticket to St.Paul/Minneapolis and one return flight from Seattle. (No that bad IMO)

As for the PBL, I just can't see it working. The guys that are talking about forming the league lack vision. For instance, how many USBL teams currently playing were in existence in 1999 how about the CBA? Two, Kansas and Brooklyn and only one in the CBA Yakama. That means there was a lot of turnover in minor league hoops prior to the D-leagues cherry-picking of the last three years. Leagues must find buyers for teams that go under and investors willing to fork over cash for expansion teams. The PBL guys are heading down the path of destruction (raising entry fees).
Let me use the housing market as an example; if your attempting to sell your home for 200,000 in the same area where one builder (with a bad reputation) is flooding the market with new homes for 40,000 (which by the way are comparable to your home) who in their right mind would buy your home?
The PBL is building their house on sand, Mr. Newman the man was never the poiblem , it is Mr. Newman's vision that is the problem and his vision will continue to be the problem for everyone outside the Newman clan that buy into it (this includes the morons that are forming the PBL). The ABA teams that leave for the PBL will continue to fail because they don't have the proper support systems in place. It is not about who has the most money (the PBL leadership has some strange elitist ideas that just don't make any sense), it's about who has the best ideas. Raising the entry fee will not prevent teams from failing, it will only cause investors to join the ABA instead. (why pay more for the same faulty blueprint?) This guys need to develop better rules and regulations, first. For instance:
The euro-league requires all new franchises to supply the league with the names of two three star hotels in a 20 mile radius of the arena and two arenas that can hold 2,000 or more fans before they grant entry. (why are ABA refusing to stay in hotels on the road and don't have venues for playoff game) All teams must have regulation size basketball courts 94ft and so on... If teams don't comply they are fined. Firm regulations and fines will prevent bad owners from joining but it will not prevent good investors from buying franchises. The PBL is removing itself from the market before it has even incorparated.
Without investors, the PBLs only option is to cherry-pick the ABA, which in turn will piss off Mr. Newman and he'll attempt to destroy the PBL by placing teams in PBL markets for free! (which will end up being a total mess for both leagues) Maryland and Vermont could not be able to pass the entry regulations of any established league so they are forced to play in the PBL if they leave the ABA. Why in g.ds name would Rochester leave the ABA to join an ABA copycat league? They should attempt to get the CBA to waive the entry fee and pay an annual fee (30,000) for two years as a limited term membership, then after two years jump to the D-League or pay the rest of the entry fee (90,000) to stay in the CBA. The only teams that should join the PBL are the ones that don't have any choices.

bdaly
03-28-2007, 10:34 AM
Mr. Newman the man was never the poiblem , it is Mr. Newman's vision that is the problem and his vision will continue to be the problem for everyone outside the Newman clan that buy into it (this includes the morons that are forming the PBL). The ABA teams that leave for the PBL will continue to fail because they don't have the proper support systems in place. It is not about who has the most money (the PBL leadership has some strange elitist ideas that just don't make any sense), it's about who has the best ideas. Raising the entry fee will not prevent teams from failing, it will only cause investors to join the ABA instead. (why pay more for the same faulty blueprint?)
It's clear we're going to have to agree to disagree again. I think you're missing the obvious if you don't think undercapitalized teams are the problem. Aside from the league not enforcing rules, what is the problem with the concept? Modest travel costs and fairly exciting basketball when the teams are evenly matched? The weak links are what destroy the strong teams. As soon as a road team doesn't show up for a game and a home game is canceled, the home team loses credibility. And why do those teams generally not travel (unless the home team puts them up in a place known for prostitution)? They have run out of cash. If you make sure every team has money to make it through and then enforce clear standards, it can work.

A few of your points really go back to what I discussed above. Refusing to stay at a hotel ties back to the ABA having no real (or enforced) standards in regards to where you have to put the road team up. Not having a venue due to conflicts isn't uncommon--you have to build slack into the playoff format. In fact, that's the claim as to why the CBA's playoffs got shifted (again). Although, I'm not so sure that's not an excuse. All in all, maybe the PBL and CBA can come together if the regions make sense. These are the ABA's strong teams, which the CBA was more than happy to recruit them last season (actually, some of the teams they recruited weren't all that strong at the gate). But, I'll leave the discussion at that, as we tend to go in circles.

bectond
03-28-2007, 11:04 AM
A few of your points really go back to what I discussed above. Refusing to stay at a hotel ties back to the ABA having no real (or enforced) standards in regards to where you have to put the road team up. .

I agree the ABA does not have any standards, it is simply a machine that spits out new franchises. Nothing more nothing less, anyone with eyes can see that. My point is this... Franchises come and go in minor league basketball, especially franchises that play in leagues that don't have safety nets. The PBL would be wise to take a more socialist approach, that every man for himself crap will end in all of them failing. It's everybodys fault when team A decides not to travel to team Bs home game, not just team A and team B. League leadership needs to understand that every possible problem needs to be addressed both the leagues teams take the field. The same guys that are running the PBL were entrusted to fix the ABA and they failed to do so. All they did was loss a senseless power struggle.
The ABA has a number of problems at its core, I have posted about 50 replys on them and I don't want to discuss that league on a PBL board.
The PBL however, needs to set firm rules and regulations first and foremost. Then only bring in franchises that have a solid business plan. (if you have 50 milion in the bank and no plan you will still fail) They should focus on the business of ideas, they should only bring in owners that are excellent sales man or are willing to hire excellent sales man and they should focus on selling season tickets. What they have been doing thus far CAN NOT WORK LONG TERM!!! They must forget everthing they learned while at Newman ABA university of bad ownership.

sportsguy12
03-28-2007, 11:20 AM
I agree the ABA does not have any standards, it is simply a machine that spits out new franchises. Nothing more nothing less, anyone with eyes can see that. My point is this... Franchises come and go in minor league basketball, especially franchises that play in leagues that don't have safety nets. The PBL would be wise to take a more socialist approach, that every man for himself crap will end in all of them failing. It's everybodys fault when team A decides not to travel to team Bs home game, not just team A and team B. League leadership needs to understand that every possible problem needs to be addressed both the leagues teams take the field. The same guys that are running the PBL were entrusted to fix the ABA and they failed to do so. All they did was loss a senseless power struggle.
The ABA has a number of problems at its core, I have posted about 50 replys on them and I don't want to discuss that league on a PBL board.
The PBL however, needs to set firm rules and regulations first and foremost. Then only bring in franchises that have a solid business plan. (if you have 50 milion in the bank and no plan you will still fail) They should focus on the business of ideas, they should only bring in owners that are excellent sales man or are willing to hire excellent sales man and they should focus on selling season tickets. What they have been doing thus far CAN NOT WORK LONG TERM!!! They must forget everthing they learned while at Newman ABA university of bad ownership.

be to work with an existing (not the ABA) league rather than start from scratch. There are so many leagues out there that have never gotten off the ground for one reason or another. Why do we need another new one? I can't imagine that the CBA, WBA or USBL might not be a fit for the PBL.

bdaly
03-28-2007, 11:27 AM
be to work with an existing (not the ABA) league rather than start from scratch. There are so many leagues out there that have never gotten off the ground for one reason or another. Why do we need another new one? I can't imagine that the CBA, WBA or USBL might not be a fit for the PBL.
The WBA and USBL don't make sense because they play in a different season. The ABA teams play in the winter, and particularly for the northern teams, thats when it makes the most sense. The CBA might be more viable if they work a travel-friendly setup. The lack of real clusters is an issue, but a NE one could be made with a couple more teams.

bectond
03-28-2007, 11:47 AM
The CBA might be more viable if they work a travel-friendly setup. The lack of real clusters is an issue, but a NE one could be made with a couple more teams.

I agree with your assessment 100%.
Rochester
Albany
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
Could make a strong cluster. If each team were to play the other 9-10 times that would only leave 9-12 road games outside of the cluster. Which should be workable for a pro basketball team. The Razorsharks could also request that their home games be front loaded, then they could use the cash from their home schedule to finance their big March road trip.

Side note:
In the future a strong Indie league will be needed however, the PBL leadership is full of ex-ABA leaders that don't seem to get it for one reason or another. The PBL will never put in place the rules that a strong league need in order to govern because the leaders' franchise would not meet tough standards. He is starting a new league because he is not willing to make the changes needed to join a structured league with rules already in place. His model would also have a tough time winning any games in a structured league due to the fact that his team focuses on gimicks. I agree with he's decision to start a new league and to get as many suckers as he can to follow him (here we go again, the ABA all over again...) But why would a franchise with options play in the PBL. That is what seems brainless to me.
Maybe the Razorsharks owner is comfortable with leagues that doing things azz backwards and does not want to upgrade his general manager and/ or coach in order to survive in a real league. Seeing what happened to Pittsburgh last year may have scared him off a little bit. Jacksonville However, has a top notch coach in place so they should be able to make the jump if they too want out of the ABA.

TheStandard
03-28-2007, 12:10 PM
lets see what happens and i have to agree. that doyle is a gimmick man. that hurts. i wouldnt pay to see a 7'9 dufus that cant play

bdaly
03-28-2007, 01:04 PM
lets see what happens and i have to agree. that doyle is a gimmick man. that hurts. i wouldnt pay to see a 7'9 dufus that cant play
IMO, you have to be a "gimmick man" in the ABA. The ABA rarely posts standings, divisions change, and many teams opt-out of the playoffs, so it's tough to sell people on the league. So you often have to resort to gimmicks unless you can really get the planets to align. Teams like Rochester, Jacksonville, and the now D-League Arkansas club have, but few others have succeeded in decent size markets.

As for Bectond's comment, with the Razorsharks, it was 100% travel related. They had been contacted by the D-League and CBA, and didn't think the travel made sense, which is prudent. You're a big CBA fan, and that's fair. But they weren't exactly a model minor league this season--although wonderful compared to the ABA. Folding a team mid-season, changing the schedule to accommodate travel, and changing the playoff format twice isn't ideal. Finally, the PBL having a strike against it because of the "ABA influence" is entertaining. Who is the CBA's CEO and President, after all?

But, could the CBA and PBL teams come together? Maybe. As I mentioned, the CBA was happy to take ABA teams last year. And, frankly, the crop of teams that I suspect will jump is superior to the crop that came over last year.

preeths
03-28-2007, 01:17 PM
This "gimmick" got an ABA team more positive press than anything else outside the state of Vermont this year. He's a work in progress, and also a great story, not to mention a human being just pursuing his dream. If he couldn't score or do anything on the court, his critics might have a point, but give the man a chance.

I believe some could learn the lesson that if they just toned down the rhetoric and insults a little bit, they'd be surprised at who might listen.

bdaly
03-28-2007, 01:28 PM
This "gimmick" got an ABA team more positive press than anything else outside the state of Vermont this year. He's a work in progress, and also a great story, not to mention a human being just pursuing his dream.
This is a very fair point too. There has been more than one really tall player that doesn't exhibit the best skills in the world anyways. The last game with a huge starting five was "gimmick." But he was a regular player, and I see no problem with it. He wasn't the best, but he's chasing a dream and he does have usefulness under the hoop.

jamesaba
03-28-2007, 05:34 PM
Rochester
Buffalo
Quebec
Montreal
Ottawa
Vermont
Cape Cod
Maryland
Wilmington
Detroit
Minnesota
Jacksonville
Palm Beach
South Alabama
Indiana Alleycats
Pittsburgh Xplosion

bectond
03-29-2007, 08:34 AM
Give him a chance? He had the perfect opportunity last year in the ABA to make some worthwhile changes and he did nothing but bicker with Mr. Newman. I never bashed the guy, but today is a new day and from what he has been quoted as saying, I don't think the guy is going to make it. The problem with the ABA is not franchise fees, it is the overall lack of organization and pure capitalistic philosophy that has doomed the under funded ball clubs.

If the PBL leaders were as smart as the Beckster, they would keep the franchise fee at 10,000, then they would focus on adding some needed regulations. First of all a team should have to wait two full seasons between being awarded a franchise and fielding a team. This rule would allow the most under funded owners time to acquire investors, sponsors and a season ticket base. Teams should not be treated equally if some have funds and others don't. Teams that lack funds should be restricted to playing a limited schedule if they can not prove they have the funds to complete a full season. For instance, If a team lacks sponsors and has only sold 100 season ticket packages in the first 18 months of the franchises existence then the league should do what the CBA did with Southern Cal, Atlanta, Vancouver and Miami or restrict the number of games the team can play based on funding. Say, an eight game schedule over the course of four weeks instead of a 36 game schedule over 16 weeks. The biggest moron in the universe should be able to complete an 8 game season if given two years to prepare. The two year waiting period would also help under funded teams secure loans from banks to cover the cost of travel if they run out of money during the course of their 4 road games because banks will only loan a company money if it has been in business for more than two years and has items that can be liquidated like fax machines, computers, basketball equipment and the like.
Teams schedules could increase from 8 games to 12, 16, 24 then finally 36 games as their sponsors and season ticket sales increase. The league should operate on a point system simular to the NHL:
2 pts for a win, 1 point for an overtime loss, 0 points for regulation losses. Thus, under funded teams would be at a disadvantage as far as making the playoffs. Teams with resources should also be forced to put money in a league account to ensure that all teams finish the season. The league should also fine teams for mishaps in game operation, the fines would also be placed in the leagues account to help troubled franchises. The stronger teams should be allowed to loan the weaker teams funds, which can be repaid after the weaker team is sold. (teams that only cost 10,000 which the operate last four to five years, should be able to be sold for a huge profit. The league must ensure that most teams survive. The league should also limit league growth. A maximum of 32 teams should be allowed for ensure that teams can be sold at a huge profit. The style of play should be comparable to the NBA, don't steal Mr. Newmans ideas. The most successful teams in the new ABAs history are:
The Long Beach Jam
The Kansas City Knights
The Arkansas Rimrockers
The Rochester Razorsharks
and the Vermont Frost Heaves.
None of which have use gimmicks to sale tickets, no only are gimmicks NOT needed they should be avoided by the majority of the PBLs franchises.
If a team leaves the PBL it should only be because they have moved up to a larger league, if franchise fees are only 10,000 and there is a limited number of teams, the PBLs leaders will have 5,000 applications for 1 replacement team. Therefore, if they should be able to find an acceptable ownership group with a solid business plan. Raising the entry fee only limits them number of groups vying for a franchise. (it would be the dumbest move they could make!!!)

bdaly
03-29-2007, 08:53 AM
Raising the entry fee only limits them number of groups vying for a franchise. (it would be the dumbest move they could make!!!)
Yikes, there are a lot of "dumb" professional sports leagues that appear successful then. Luckily, it limits the groups that the league would want to limit--those without capital (and you can obviously require a solid business plan). Often leagues share their expansion fees which can help keep current teams viable too. Obviously, none of us knows where they'll peg the expansion fee. But, there's clear precedent--in pretty much every other pro sports league--to do so. The primary benefit to keeping it so low is you can become "the largest league in pro sports." Hopefully that's NOT their goal.

As an example, I can put together a wonderful business plan and I have $10,000. But do I have enough to run a pro sports team? Heck no. Having an expansion fee that is so many miles below the operational costs is misleading in a way. I might be able to go and get loans, and it would be best not to dump my money into an expansion fee. And, there's a chance it could work. But the odds when you're going off of that much credit aren't great to put it mildly.

TheStandard
03-29-2007, 09:05 AM
Sun Ming Ming will not play in the NBA. First off his basketball skills are no where near what an NBA team would like him to be. Second have you seen Yao Ming? Hes the only over 7'4 big man to ever grace around the way he does. Yao has broken that barrier of the over super 7 foot no skill center. Not only can Yao shoot he can rebound, run and block. The running is the most impressive part. Also hes learned how to use his body and turn it into grace. Yes many times he may look robotic especially against Shaq or Tim Duncan who makes the center position look like point guard with his moves. Look at Dirk Nowitzki we can say hes 7 feet especially with his sneakers on and what does he do?

Sun Ming Ming is just being used as a gimmick. He cant go a full 10 nor 12 minutes in the court. He cant dunk thats the worst part of it. I mean your arms are right there how can you miss? I expect a small guy to miss not someone thats like right there.

Gimmicks in basketball are to be left to the Globetrotters. Thats what they're there for. In pro basketball the only gimmick is the mascot. But in the ABA the gimmick is only the good news which also makes you laugh and say this league is ridiculous. And then we have Uncle Joe. His gimmick? A real life Vince McMahon let me screw you all.

bectond
03-29-2007, 09:33 AM
One or two teams using gimmicks is OK but the League should focus on NBA standards.
The only things that may need to be changed is a 16 second shot clock instead of a 24 second clock and 3 to make 2 free throws. Besides that follow NBA rules.

TopSpin
03-29-2007, 09:34 AM
Sun Ming Ming is just being used as a gimmick. He cant go a full 10 nor 12 minutes in the court. He cant dunk thats the worst part of it. I mean your arms are right there how can you miss? I expect a small guy to miss not someone thats like right there.

Gimmicks in basketball are to be left to the Globetrotters. Thats what they're there for. In pro basketball the only gimmick is the mascot. But in the ABA the gimmick is only the good news which also makes you laugh and say this league is ridiculous. And then we have Uncle Joe. His gimmick? A real life Vince McMahon let me screw you all.Standard, I think you miss the point on Sun Ming. It's the up swing that everyone is interested in. He might not be able to play now, but given a few years in minor league ball, that could change and I know a stuggling NBA team might take a chance. Whatever team has his rights and now the ABA has stamped their name on him, might get a big payday, like Yao Ming.

bectond
03-29-2007, 09:38 AM
As an example, I can put together a wonderful business plan and I have $10,000. But do I have enough to run a pro sports team? Heck no. Having an expansion fee that is so many miles below the operational costs is misleading in a way. I might be able to go and get loans, and it would be best not to dump my money into an expansion fee. And, there's a chance it could work. But the odds when you're going off of that much credit aren't great to put it mildly.

Maybe I was unclear in my first post, charge a small non-refundable application fee for each application. If a market opens up thousands of onwership group will be vying for one franchise. The weaker groups would loss out because their business plan would be inferior. First off, an idiot can't write a good business plan. Secondly, if a under funded entrepreneur can write a great business plan that beats out thousands of other business plans, i'm sure that owner will be able to find investors during a two year waiting period. This is survive of the fitest, only the best plan will get be chosen.
Investors and sponsors should know a great plan when they see one well and if they know a solid league that does not fold teams is behind that plan that will make it that much easier for the entrepreneur to find funding.
In addition, a rich guy WILL NOT enter into a competition with 5,000 entrepreneurs for one franchise, he or she will just bid on an existing one that is up for sale. Rich people don't like going thur long application processes.The NBA does not need the smartest owners they are set, as is the NFL and MLB. An up and coming league needs to only enlist the finest applicants. My plan calls for the best of both worlds, existing teams can go to the highest bidder and expansion teams would go to the fitest organization. A top notch entrepreneur will not be misled by a franchise fee, his business plan will have to entail how he or she planed to operate a profitable business. The plan would have to be the best out of thousands of applications. Remember it's ideas that matter the most, stop fooling yourself. You only want high bidders buying existing teams with solid business plans already in place. All new franchises should be owned by the cream of the crop.

The teams will make their money off of spliting the application fees, which multipled times 5,000 applications will come out to be far greater than 500,000 bucks.
Your missing the survive of the fitest aspect, if the ownership group is weak, it will not beat out the cream of the crop.

mammal
03-29-2007, 12:07 PM
Ming is a gimmick now. He was signed by the Grand Rapids Flight of the IBL to put butts in the seats, not his skill. His high game so far is 12 points. The IBL preaches up tempo, fast break, style of basketball. Not exactly a style that will show case his skills. He has a nice touch but that is about it. He may be better suited for the D-League and get some real coaching.

panchess
03-30-2007, 08:49 AM
..that is what he is.

NBA caliber? No, but neither are 99% of the players in the ABA or IBL.

Media attraction? Yup.

Personally, I don't see his signing as anything different than a team signing a player from a local university who might not be as good as somebody from out of town, but will fill a few seats.

Alumni96
03-30-2007, 09:34 AM
Will we see any official announcements regarding the PBL anytime soon?

LASportsFan
03-30-2007, 10:45 AM
Maybe I was unclear in my first post, charge a small non-refundable application fee for each application. If a market opens up thousands of onwership group will be vying for one franchise. The weaker groups would loss out because their business plan would be inferior. First off, an idiot can't write a good business plan. Secondly, if a under funded entrepreneur can write a great business plan that beats out thousands of other business plans, i'm sure that owner will be able to find investors during a two year waiting period. This is survive of the fitest, only the best plan will get be chosen.
Investors and sponsors should know a great plan when they see one well and if they know a solid league that does not fold teams is behind that plan that will make it that much easier for the entrepreneur to find funding.
In addition, a rich guy WILL NOT enter into a competition with 5,000 entrepreneurs for one franchise, he or she will just bid on an existing one that is up for sale. Rich people don't like going thur long application processes.The NBA does not need the smartest owners they are set, as is the NFL and MLB. An up and coming league needs to only enlist the finest applicants. My plan calls for the best of both worlds, existing teams can go to the highest bidder and expansion teams would go to the fitest organization. A top notch entrepreneur will not be misled by a franchise fee, his business plan will have to entail how he or she planed to operate a profitable business. The plan would have to be the best out of thousands of applications. Remember it's ideas that matter the most, stop fooling yourself. You only want high bidders buying existing teams with solid business plans already in place. All new franchises should be owned by the cream of the crop.

The teams will make their money off of spliting the application fees, which multipled times 5,000 applications will come out to be far greater than 500,000 bucks.
Your missing the survive of the fitest aspect, if the ownership group is weak, it will not beat out the cream of the crop.

What minor league is going to get 5,000 applications for new franchises? The very simple answer: NONE!!!!

There's your flaw, buddy. Also, it's "survival of the fitest," not "survive of the fitest." Half the guys that post on these blogs would fail second grade English grammar.

bectond
03-30-2007, 03:30 PM
Thats how many the ABA said they received this year. I was typing fast so excuse the typo. The 5,000 application number was just something I was throwing out there. A large fee will scare off people that have money just as fast as it will scare off someone that does not. That is my point.

jamesaba
04-02-2007, 07:29 AM
Good they should scare off 99% of the people applying for ABA franchises!

They should get 12-20 solid teams and stay that way for two seasons before add 1 new expansion team.

panchess
04-02-2007, 09:54 AM
..I don't see in the universe, particularly with a new league.

Nobody else mentioned it, so I will. Every original D-League team either folded or moved in the first five years, and of their 12 current teams, three were successful in the CBA first (Sioux Falls, Dakota, Idaho), one is owned directly by an NBA team (LA), and one was successful in the ABA first (Arkansas). Another was a CBA expansion franchise ruled to the D-League (Broomfield).

Austin moved from Columbus, GA, Tulsa moved from Asheville, SC, Albuquerque moved from Huntsville, AL, while Anaheim, Fort Worth and Bakersfield were NDBL expansion teams. Florida is inactive (after relocating from North Charleston and Charleston, SC), and the other four original teams folded.

Between the NBDL and the CBA, there are 20 teams. I am guessing 1/2 to 2/3 of them lose money, and they are the better-off ones.

sportsguy12
04-02-2007, 10:03 AM
..I don't see in the universe, particularly with a new league.

Nobody else mentioned it, so I will. Every original D-League team either folded or moved in the first five years, and of their 12 current teams, three were successful in the CBA first (Sioux Falls, Dakota, Idaho), one is owned directly by an NBA team (LA), and one was successful in the ABA first (Arkansas). Another was a CBA expansion franchise ruled to the D-League (Broomfield).

Austin moved from Columbus, GA, Tulsa moved from Asheville, SC, Albuquerque moved from Huntsville, AL, while Anaheim, Fort Worth and Bakersfield were NDBL expansion teams. Florida is inactive (after relocating from North Charleston and Charleston, SC), and the other four original teams folded.

Between the NBDL and the CBA, there are 20 teams. I am guessing 1/2 to 2/3 of them lose money, and they are the better-off ones.

The D-League needs time to establish itself like minor league baseball has. You can't really talk about the original D-League teams being failures in all senses because the NBA realized it put teams in the wrong markets. After revising their game plan, the newer cities seem to be doing better. I think it will still take time to catch (maybe another 3-4 years). There are not any teams in the CBA or ABA making money.

Pounder
04-02-2007, 11:13 AM
When the NBA created the D-League, I read about the arena deals they were trying to establish with the original markets. It was practically a brazen theft of sorts (hockey teams in some of those markets were the first victims). I don't know if the NBA was aware of their image backlash and went through thinking they could be the bully on every block, or if they even cared if they drew or not.

Well, obviously, in moving teams, they've learned one thing or another. Still, unless the Staples Center team (per some statement I saw, not rumor) is destined for the upcoming Ontario CA arena, the D-League is looking at some diverse models right now and could end up making decisions that are NOT attendance-based. Curious to see how this turns out.

bectond
04-21-2007, 07:14 AM
Good they should scare off 99% of the people applying for ABA franchises!

They should get 12-20 solid teams and stay that way for two seasons before add 1 new expansion team.

Seems like they scared off 99.9% of everybody!
Four teams, I hate to say I told you so but......
This league won't make it to X-Mas eve 2007.
If they play any games at all.

bectond
04-25-2007, 07:48 AM
Here is a great article that relates to the fact that ideas not money are what make basketball leagues great. This article's theme runs counter to the philosophy of the PBL

http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20070423-115443-7487r.htm

logoguru
04-26-2007, 10:06 AM
I dont think the game can change much more. I think on court innovation has peaked. Of course there is much innovation that is needed in front offices, especially for minor league clubs.
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bectond
04-26-2007, 10:54 AM
I dont think the game can change much more. I think on court innovation has peaked. Of course there is much innovation that is needed in front offices, especially for minor league clubs.

Theories regarding oligopolies in sports are highly conjectural. However, sports in general have a high degree of sunken cost. Creating additional entry barriers do not encourage me to believe that these two franchises are heading in the right direction. Market Failures are not corrected via entry barriers. Barriers only serve to restrict competition. Market failures can be corrected by increases in efficiency. I think your missing the point of the story. The shot clock made the NBA game more efficient. It reduced the amount of waste on the court (waste being the excessive dribbling). The PBL is not addressing the problems the minor league hoops is currently facing.
The concept is adding to the problem.

logoguru
04-26-2007, 11:09 AM
Theories regarding oligopolies in sports are highly conjectural. However, sports in general have a high degree of sunken cost. Creating additional entry barriers do not encourage me to believe that these two franchises are heading in the right direction. Market Failures are not corrected via entry barriers. Barriers only serve to restrict competition. Market failures can be corrected by increases in efficiency. I think your missing the point of the story. The shot clock made the NBA game more efficient. It reduced the amount of waste on the court (waste being the excessive dribbling). The PBL is not addressing the problems the minor league hoops is currently facing.
The concept is adding to the problem.

They should have joined the CBA. There is a lot of competition right now period, minor leagues are a dime a dozen. I was thinking that a 4 point line beyond the 3 point line wouldnt make the game more exciting and wouldnt increase revenue. The problem isnt with the game its with these leagues (see ABA) and the teams front offices. I dont think theyre restricting competition they are making sure that money is there for a solid foundation. Does this alone determine success? No, I dont think anyone says it does. I think does ensure that every team doesnt go belly up WFL style mid-season.
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bectond
04-26-2007, 11:24 AM
We are saying the same thing, were just using different words.
Management (Front Office) however, is the root cause of inefficiency and that is were the problem lies. These two owners are not going to admit that they are part of the problem. They do not join the CBA because they have tasted power (in the ABA) and they don't want an established league telling them what to do.

SignGuyDino
04-26-2007, 11:42 AM
They are basically going to have to answer the basic question as to why this league is going to be successful when they put their faith in Joe Newman, with several YEARS track record of broken promises and incompetence. (In other words, what the heck were they thinking about when they hooked up with Uncle Joe?) Yup.

It's a fair question.

They're also going to be asked why should this league be able to recruit 16 teams in the first season, and why so spread out which is a killer cost wise.

bectond
04-26-2007, 12:04 PM
They are basically going to have to answer the basic question as to why this league is going to be successful when they put their faith in Joe Newman, with several YEARS track record of broken promises and incompetence. (In other words, what the heck were they thinking about when they hooked up with Uncle Joe?) Yup.

It's a fair question.

They're also going to be asked why should this league be able to recruit 16 teams in the first season, and why so spread out which is a killer cost wise.

You are 1000% correct. Why are they even discussing expanding overseas and becoming an international league. This thing reeks of a sub-optimal marketing structure right out of the gate.

panchess
04-26-2007, 01:17 PM
..clearly Rochester has an elite franchise, and because of that, it looks like they want to run any new league. An established league like the CBA or D-League isn't up for sale to allow that.

Changing the NBA rules isn't the answer either. The gimmicks that Joe Newman hypes up do little to change the fan experience, in my opinion. Same with the IBL 22-second clock. Necessary? Not really. If a league wanted to use FIBA international rules, that might be interesting, but otherwise I would stick with NBA rules.

Has anybody gone to an ABA game because of the 3-D rule? I doubt it. The four-point shot? The same.

Blocking and tackling with the right promotions and marketing certainly helps, along with good game day promotions and attracting groups.

The PBL seems to be discovering there isn't a ton of new owners out there looking for minor league basketball franchises that are well-heeled. I would assume Texas is the Tycoons and Arkansas is the Aeros, but why jump unless you know it's going to work? That might be part of the problem with announcements right now.

As for the other listed cities, Oklahoma City is likely getting the Sonics, so why go there with a minor league team? Denver has a NBA and a D-League team, that doesnt make sense either. Memphis has a NBA and major college team, as likely will Las Vegas in the very near future.

Hartford and Omaha might work, but it is a big college basketball team as UConn plays in Hartford, and Creighton in Omaha, both selling out 15,000 seat areans. Personally, I would prefer Springfield, MA, if only because of the natural connection to the Basketball Hall of Fame.

Quite literally, all existing teams know that they can go to the CBA(if they meet the published PBL standards, they will meet CBA standards) or ABA until the fall, so it might be slow going for announcements in the spring.

The Rochester owner said last year that the CBA is too spread out. The proposed PBL is worse for travel than the CBA, particularly from Western New York.

psbf
04-26-2007, 02:01 PM
earlier, by a poster, in regards to concerns that the PBL plans for overseas. I share that concern. I think the league needs to grow in this country first and see how that works. If it lasts, great. But test the markets here, before looking elsewhere. There are already so many leagues to compete with here. Going slow is good, but not too slow. I would hope the league has a plan and a deadline for each step of that plan. That way when each step is completed on time, things are going on schedule. But let's keep it domestic for now.

rider
04-26-2007, 02:44 PM
Several posters are focusing on the CBA and the PBL being critical of where teams are geographically located from a travel cost perspective. If travel costs will make or break you are probably not funded well enough. I would much rather pay a higher travel cost to play in a league where each team is operating a well funded franchise who will show up verses a league with little or no travel costs but can't pay their bills and are playing in high school gyms.

The real question is the net worth of the ownership groups, generally speaking if the ownership group has less than a 30 million net worth the franchise will be in trouble. Real owners will not partiicipate in a system that is third party controlled like the ABA, real owners want one franchise , one vote. The PBL has not stated what the league structure will be, I have a feeling the two cities rochester want some control and veto rights which won't fly with people with serious cash.

bectond
04-26-2007, 05:14 PM
Theories regarding oligopolies in sports are highly conjectural. However, sports in general have a high degree of sunken cost. Creating additional entry barriers do not encourage me to believe that these two franchises are heading in the right direction. Market Failures are not corrected via entry barriers. Barriers only serve to restrict competition. Market failures can be corrected by increases in efficiency. I think your missing the point of the story. The shot clock made the NBA game more efficient. It reduced the amount of waste on the court (waste being the excessive dribbling). The PBL is not addressing the problems the minor league hoops is currently facing.
The concept is adding to the problem.

I believe the real question is market failure and why does anyone believe that the PBL's plan will address minor league hoops current situation; how is the PBL enhancing market solutions? How does a international minor league in America serve the public interest? Do these guys even know what Joe Public wants in a minor league basketball league or are they just guessing. The ABA way is harmful to the sporting business in general, the PBL seems to be going the ABA route with entry barriers and a trapezoid lane. What benefits will this league provide the sport or the general public?

Pounder
04-26-2007, 05:35 PM
I wonder if the Rochester ownership is creating the PBL with the thought that, not so far away, Frank DuRoss still acts like he has the USL under his thumb, and that can be copied.

Answer: no.

Net worth is worth something for startups. However, I believe there's a misconception out there... and here. Many people think owners are willing to burn through a lot of their own money to get things moving. I find that the smart ones DON'T. Getting the sponsors beforehand usually means having most of the start-up money without spending a dime of your own dosh. We all know, or should know, that there are lots of group efforts for this level of franchise.

The clock ticks.

(BTW- many people will SAY they aspire to be international, and never make the leap. Deeds weigh more than words. Sometimes, you have to wait for the arena to open and the game to tip off before you believe what someone tells you.)

PHXfan
04-30-2007, 07:50 PM
Or maybe they are headed in the right direction. Is it possible that they are years ahead of the rest of minor league basketball, and possibly the PBL can make something special happen?

Or is this just another gimmick like the AAPBL prior to its so called formation of a new US league?

Only time can tell, and by the looks of it the PBL is running short on that.

I would like like to see some kind of international ties with the US and basketball. I know stern said that he plans to have 5 EURO franchises in the next 20 years in the NBA. 20 years is quite a time frame, but he is a hell of a business man that knows what it takes to create success.

PBL! Good Luck!

panchess
04-30-2007, 08:07 PM
..they obviously cost money, and it's hard to develop rivalries with teams on the other side of the country.

Take the American Hockey League, a well-run, long-standing organization with direct ties to major-league teams. Everything everybody in the basketball minors say that they want.

They do many things to minimize travel, including unbalanced schedules within their divisions, not playing all of the teams in the league, and having three games in three days to get the most out of one road trip.

Even so, teams move every year, and almost every year since the absorption of the IHL about 10 years ago, the geographic footprint of the AHL has shrunk. Orlando, Utah, Kentucky and the like are gone, and new teams are formed in the Northeast and Great Lakes regions. Hello, Worcester, Cleveland, Rockford and Binghamton.

SignGuyDino
05-01-2007, 02:31 AM
First, the obligatory "when is something happening?" comment.

Second, since they said "new rules" and "new game" it cannot be FIBA rules.

To me, the only rule change that makes sense is 4 on 4 fullcourt. (OK, I have an obvious bias.) First of all, the old IBL had FIBA rules and I think the CBL did for one season. Those are two that I know of. Also, we see FIBA ball in the Olympics and Worlds.

Not to mention the Euros already know those rules.

When you do FIBA lines on an American court it looks like it doesn't belong, that they are temporary. My argument for 4 on 4 fullcourt (besides opening up play and lowering costs) is that you won't have to change the lining at all to do it.

The point is, is this league a "development league" or an "entertainment league?" If it's "entertainment," who cares what the rule changes are since the players are there mainly to entertain and not to move up? If it's "development," they're gonna have to go NBA or FIBA rules.

Without knowing anything but what I read on the non-updated website, I see this as an "entertainment" league. Just my opinion. If they are trying to develop players for the NBA, they need to tie in to the NBA scheduling somehow. This is what the WBA is doing but they are staying in one region.

One possible way to make it feasible to do all this travel is have a weekly game similar to football. But you'd have to be absolutely sure to have specific dates on the weekends in every venue. High school or college gyms are one thing, public arenas are totally different. Not to mention no TV deal that I see...what's the point of an international league without one? And who'd do it?

We have tons of questions, and none of them answered as of yet....

rider
05-03-2007, 10:45 AM
I first of all must state that this is mostly speculation and not based on any known fact! I believe based on several actions and conversations that Larry Crain Arkansas has joined forces with the PBL not only with his substantial fiancial ability but owning a franchise for the city of Little rock . I believe he will move the NBDL out of Little rock and place a PBL team in his city. I sense he is unhappy with the lack of local influence and control of the NBDL team and wants to have more local ability to build a top level talented team verses being larege control by the NBDL system.

Watch carefully, I think I'm on the mark!

Minor League Man
05-03-2007, 10:58 AM
I first of all must state that this is mostly speculation and not based on any known fact! I believe based on several actions and conversations that Larry Crain Arkansas has joined forces with the PBL not only with his substantial fiancial ability but owning a franchise for the city of Little rock . I believe he will move the NBDL out of Little rock and place a PBL team in his city. I sense he is unhappy with the lack of local influence and control of the NBDL team and wants to have more local ability to build a top level talented team verses being larege control by the NBDL system.

Watch carefully, I think I'm on the mark!

I think once the La Crosse RimRockers are official, the PBL Arkansas team will be starting up (Whaddaya think they'll be called?)

psbf
05-03-2007, 12:46 PM
LaCrosse should re-think their name, as Arkansas already has a team called the Rimrockers.

Minor League Man
05-03-2007, 01:10 PM
LaCrosse should re-think their name, as Arkansas already has a team called the Rimrockers.
The Arkansas RimRockers are very close to moving to La Crosse, and the owner wants them to keep the RimRockers name when they move.

OneBetter
05-03-2007, 01:12 PM
LaCrosse should re-think their name, as Arkansas already has a team called the Rimrockers.

Not sure if you're up to speed....you may want to read some earlier posts. It's the Arkansas Rimrockers franchise that is looking to relocate to La Crosse.