For next season

[psbf]

Would it make more sense, to switch from two Divisions, to a single table, since the CBA does not have that many teams? Just a thought.

[sportsguy12]

Would it make more sense, to switch from two Divisions, to a single table, since the CBA does not have that many teams? Just a thought.

Vancouver, Atlanta, So Cal and Florida are supposed to join along with another Western team. Figure on a revived Utah resurfacing in another city.

So that's 12 teams.

Even if they have 8, it's still best to have 2 divisions. It makes a lot more hype for the finals and All-Star Game as an East vs. West matchup.

Otherwise, it's kinda ho-hum.

Anything less than 8 teams; however, should go in one table. It's odd this year having only 1 team miss out on the playoffs.

[psbf]

it is better to have two Divisions with an All-Star game being held every season. And I think it is better to have 3 teams sit out for the playoffs, rather than just 1.
As far as Vancouver, they have the competition of the IBL Volcanos and I'm still skeptical about Atlanta joining, with them having competition with the ABA Vision and NBA Hawks.

[Letzplayball]

having six teams in the playoffs, stinks. They just as well start the playoffs now, as the teams don't have as much to play for. I know homefield advantage and a by are nice, but with six of the seven teams in the playoffs, it's not nearly as important to finish first or second. I wish they had left it at the top two teams in each league qualify.

[bectond]

Apex has three current teams, one expansion team and they will most likely relocate the Eagles. Which will give them five teams next year. The IBL plays in Vancouver Washington so there won't be any competition there. Miami just lost their drawing card in Tim Hardaway so they most likely won't be joining. So that leaves:

WEST:
Butte
Yakama
Great Falls
Apex Expansion
Vancouver
Southern Cal (?)
EAST:
Minot
Apex relocation
Albany
Anderson (?)
Pittsburgh (?)
Atlanta (?)

[CBAisJUSTok]

THE CBA IS NOT NEARLY WHAT IT USED TO BE! I have stated this before and I am really shocked my sentiments have not been expressed by others in this forum. I feel none of these guys have a chance on the next level. I used to love watching CBA games and wonder who would make it to the NBA. I took a look at the NBDL website the other day and noticed on top of the numerous NBA players being assigned to play, there have been 10 NBDL players signed by NBA teams. No wonder the best players in our league tried to play in the NBDL first. Do I think the CBA will disappear? No. Too much history. But this league is nothing like what it used to be.

[psbf]

CBA, I remember reading your posts in the past and I respect your opinions. I don't recall reading any call-ups to the top level from this league, which is currently trying to re-build. It takes time. You are right that this league is not what it once was, but neither is the ABA. I believe this league will improve in the future. Everything takes time. I've been a frustrated Xplosion fan, but I still enjoy watching them play. Personally, I can't wait for things to get better next season, while everyone else on here looks forward to the upcoming playoffs. But I think things will be better next year.

[sportsguy12]

CBA, I remember reading your posts in the past and I respect your opinions. I don't recall reading any call-ups to the top level from this league, which is currently trying to re-build. It takes time. You are right that this league is not what it once was, but neither is the ABA. I believe this league will improve in the future. Everything takes time. I've been a frustrated Xplosion fan, but I still enjoy watching them play. Personally, I can't wait for things to get better next season, while everyone else on here looks forward to the upcoming playoffs. But I think things will be better next year.

Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the CBA in its glory days. The league only has one team with any longevity - Yakama. Albany is in its second season since returning and everyone else is new.

It's going to take another year or two at least for the CBA to thrive. There are no quick fixes. Drastic expansion is not the answer - see ABA. If teams aren't ready then they shouldn't take the court.

I also think 4 teams in the post-season are fine, not 6.

[psbf]

I agree on most of the things you say, Sportsguy12. However, as far as a team being ready, I wonder how you would feel if you were a diehard fan of a team that has struggled this season. We may still disagree on that, but it takes a lot to put ones shoes in someone else's. With respect, just curious.

[panchess]

..the CBA would be looking a lot better if the three teams hadn't jumped to the D-League, that is for sure.

Obviously the CBA did what it had to do to have a season. Has it been perfect? No. Better than expectations (which for many was that the league would fold)? Probably. It is more or less assured now that the CBA will finish the season with seven operating teams out of eight.

I doubt Anderson will be back in Anderson, though they may be in another Indiana location (Fort Wayne if the D-League isn't there). Miami is toast, in my opinion. Atlanta appears to be doing the things to get their franchise going, but we'll see how successful it is.

For what it's worth, I am not seeing how major markets will work with the CBA. A couple might in the D-League, with a close link to the NBA team. I think the CBA should focus on small and mid-sized metro markets.

Think Albany, Yakima, Bismarck, Sioux Falls, Boise, Rockford. Those are the places the CBA has succeeded in the past. Big enough to support a team. Small enough that the team is a "big deal" and gets publicity for the games, and can attract sponsors. Not a ton of Division I college basketball helps, along with enough of a cluster to create some "bus" games.

I am not buying LA, Hawaii, Seattle Spokane or Atlanta as success stories either. Vancouver might work, and would help Yakama. I think Rapid City, SD will be the new home of the Utah Eagles. That will be Apex's fourth franchise. They won't have five. It is possible, though unlikely, that one of the Montana teams will go to Billings, the largest city in the state.

Maybe it is being done, but I would think it would make sense for the league to target markets that might work for them, instead of a cattle call of prospective franchises that are all over the place.

[bectond]

I research sports markets and as far as targeting clusters go here are a few markets that have the right mixture of population and personel income to support a CBA franchise.

Surprisingly South Carolina has four great minor league markets in that state:
Greenville*****
Myrte Beach***
Columbia***
Charleston***
Savannah Ga*** is also on the South Carolina border. All five cities have enough income to support 24 CBA games(***).
Fact:There is twice as much money in the Greenville area an there is in the poorest area Charleston, However the D-League failed in both cities.
Some other attractive southern cities are:
Birmingham Al*****
Jackson MS*****
Sarasota Fl*****
Knoxville TN****
Johnson City TN ***
Pensacola FL ***
Tupelo, MS ***
Fact:Jackson, MS has 25x the personal income than current CBA city Minot.
In the northeast Portland ME**** is an extremely attractive market as is
Rochester*****
Syracuse*****
Harrisburg PA *****
Toledo ****
Scranton PA ***
Erie PA ***
Burlington VT ***
Banger ME **
Charleston West Va **** maybe the best available eastern market (no other sports teams in town) but it's remote location is a negative.
Grand Rapids***** is the best market in the MW, however there are not enough cites in the MW to form a cluster of teams.

Fact: The Billings and Rapid City markets have twice the income of current cba city Great Falls, and Casper Wy has twice the income of Billings and Rapid City. Reno and Spokane have twice the income as Casper. If the CBA targets cities in the NW the best cities are:
Reno ***
Spokane ***
Anchorage ***
Kennewick **
Casper **
Sioux City **
Billings **
Fargo**
Idaho Falls **
Rapid City ** (has roughly the same personal income as the Helena/Butte area)

Sidenote:
I thought Apex purchased four franchises then took over the Utah franchise to prevent it from folding just before the season ( I believe they were given the franchise and planned on selling the Eagles for a profit during the season). I thought the original owner paid the franchise fee and the rights to that franchise were seeded to them after the owner bailed out. I'm under the assumption that they can either sell or keep the rights to the Eagles franchise inconjunction with the four expansion franchises they purchased which makes five ball clubs.

[panchess]

..I am a community and economic developer by trade, so I certainly understand the kind of data you are using.

Let's make some assumptions (heroic as they may be, but you have to start somewhere):

1) All 2006-07 CBA return in their current locations except Indiana.
2) Atlanta and Vancouver join as scheduled. It is my belief that Miami and SoCal/LA will not ever make the league.
3) The inactive Utah franchise is revived in either Rapid City, SD or Billings, MT.
4) The ABA change in administration sticks, and no new teams join the CBA from the ABA.

This would create a footprint of nine teams to build from. I think 12 would be a nice working number, and a significant improvement over other years in the post-Thomas era.

Where would be the best markets given the existing footprint?

Clearly creating one or two teams between Albany and Pittsburgh would help both franchises by making them busable locations instead of flights. Scranton/WB does have a big hockey team, Syracuse has SU basketball. Rochester has the Razorsharks (and we would love to see them come over,killing two birds with one stone).

Utica didn't show up, surprisingly. I would think the purchasing power there would be greater than Erie (a smaller metro, I believe) and there are no pro sports or D1 college teams at all. Right size arena, and recent influx of Eastern Europeans might help.

Neither did Poughkeepsie/Newburgh, a bigger market than Syracuse, though some purchasing data might include them in the NYC market. Only small-time D1 teams like Marist there.

I would add Allentown to the list. Good size (I think bigger than the 'cuse), good income data, and no winter sports other than Patriot League teams. It will be interesting to see how Wilmington (DE) does in the USBL.

Portland (ME) is a good market, but it's out there unless you have one or two other CBA teams in New England. It's a good five hours to Albany, forget the rest of the league.

If Indiana comes back, Charleston (WV) might be a bridge between them. I thought the city had an A-ball baseball team. It's hard to find a mid-sized city in the industrial Midwest that hasn't had a CBA team, but Youngstown might fit the bill.

Atlanta is out there given the footprint of the CBA. It is hard to build a bridge to them that involves more than one other team, and the large number of college towns in the region (the biggest region that I think the NBDL flopped in the South). ACC and SEC rivalries trump pro teams. Arkansas, one of the few border states in the region, has been the most hospitable to minor pro hoops. Maybe a team would work in South Carolina or the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. Northern Florida (like Pensacola) had a team in the past and might be a possibility.

One of Joe's few good ideas this season in the ABA was to let the Florida teams play in one division largely against each other all season. It's 500 miles or so up and down the state.

[bectond]

First and foremost your 1000% right, the CBA should not focus on ABA style expansion. All expansion should be controlled and well-thought out. The first order of business should be getting back in the NBA's loop, the NBA has an interest in development. The CBA should begin drafting proposals that includes joint licensing and merchandising agreements to allow each league to market its teams in the other leagues arena and website. The proposal should also include a provision that allows for developmental contracts for executives/ coaches/ players and referees.
Also, convince the NBA to enter into an agreement to use CBA clubs to garage unsigned draft picks whos rights are controlled by the parent NBA club. This would allow NBA teams to develop and closely monitor players that in todays world would be cut or forced to play overseas.
An international marketing campaign for both leagues could increase the NBA's visiblity. Monterrey, Mexico City, Tijuana, San Juan and Santo Domingo, Winnpeg and Vancouver are great markets where the CBA could expand thus increasing the NBAs market share in those areas, if the NBA were willing to:
A) play pre-season touneys in the thoses vs, CBA teams like they did in europe this past summer and..
B) assist in paying the travel cost of CBAs that travel to Mexico and the west indies.

I also believe that Corporate support is the Key to the league becoming stable for the long run, Fan support is not the only indicator of success.
If the CBA can get their teams paraphenalia exposed in NBA arenas and link their websites to the NBA's website more corporate dollars would be available to CBA team owners.
The league should focus on emerging markets and strong stable clusters of teams. In the Big Sky region Casper WY and Billings MT are the top markets.
In the Dakota region Fargo ND and Sioux City IA are the best markets, and in the Northwest Kennewick, Spokane and Anchorage are the best markets.
Minot will always have a hard time selling 24 game season ticket packages and attracting enough corporate support to raise the net worth of the team. I can't see the Skyforce ever being able to drew 3,500 a game year end year out. Winnipeg, Fargo, Sioux City and Rapid City are all better options.
Great Falls, Helena/Butte, Billings and Casper would form a solid Big Sky cluster and Vamcouver, Anchorage, Yakama and either Kennewick or Spokane would form a solid NW cluster. The Hispanic community is underserved by the NBA however an NBA/CBA partnership in emerging basketball markets such as.. Mexico City, Monterrey, El Paso and Tijuana in the west and San Juan, Santo Domingo, Miami (if they target the hispanic community) and Ponce or Mayaguez. In the SE the CBA could attempt to raid the ABA's Rome franchise to go along with Atlanta, Savannah and one of the four South Carolina markets. In Northeast- Portland and Banger MA, Albany NY and the CBA could raid the ABA for Rochester if not Scranton PA. In a PA/WV cluster you'd have Pittsburgh, Erie, Harrisburg and Charleston WV. I have heard that Youngstown is getting a D-League team.

That would be 8 divisions and 32 clubs. Each team could play 4 home and away within their cluster (one home game per month) and 8 non-divisional games 4 home and 4 road. For a 32 game season. A 32 game season would reduce the cost of purchasing season tickets resulting in more full-season package sales. It would also reduce the cost of travel. Run the season from Mid Nov to Mid March with a one week break just before X-mas.

[panchess]

...cutting the number of games and lengthening the season doesn't make sense financially.

Thinking about the league and building clusters does. Reducing costs while increasing competition.

I think half of these D-League teams are rumors to keep other leagues out. Remember the Reno D-League team from last year? Or Gary? I am guessing that Des Moines and Youngstown will be the same thing.

Minot is the Sky Rockets. Sioux Falls is the Skyforce. Quite honestly, I don't think the D-League is staying in the Dakotas forever, they just needed those teams for a boost.

[bectond]

...cutting the number of games and lengthening the season doesn't make sense financially..

Cutting the number of weekday games does make sense financially. All sports franchises should focus on selling full season ticket packages. 16 weekend games over the course of 16 weeks are a lot easier to sell than 24 weekday and weekend games over the course of a 16 week season.

Customers look at items with a price of $199 more favorably than items priced above $200. The perception of savings makes for a powerful pricing strategy. Fans will be more willing to pay $199 for the best seats in the house. However, if the season is 24 games the team would only make $8+ off each ticket. If the home dates were reduced to 16 games the team would make $12+ for each game ticket. To stay at or below the $199 price threshold CBA teams would reduce the number of weeknight ball games.

Full season ticket packages should also be paid for five months prior to the season for the following reasons:
Customers are more sensitive to the size of payments then they are to the number of months over which they can make payments. example- If fans buy their season tickets five months before the season starts team executives can spread out the one large payment over four monthly installments, smaller installments are financially manageable. The team can then use to psycological effects the season ticket price $199 and the monthly installment price $49.75.
Season tickets are important because of the sunk cost factor, people will attend a game because they don't want to let their money go to waste. It is unwise to rely on single game ticket sales, if the team does not win games fans have no incentive to purchase individual game tickets.
Selling full season tickets package sales are far superior than selling partial season ticket sales. Research shows that certain types of product variety decreases the attractiveness of a brand, variety forces fans to make difficult trade-offs that tend to drive people away. Fans overvalue games they are being asked to give up and undervalue the options they gain. Fans want fewer alternatives, that is why the NFL is so successful. They only offer full season packages and most of the games played are on the weekend.
Lowing the amount of CBA games would increase the demand for the product because teams could offer fans season tickets at a discount price over the course of four months over purchasing a ticket for each home game for a season individually. If teams sold individual game tickets for $25 each and bundled season tickets for only 12.50 a game with products fans perceive as free (offer hot dogs and soda with each ticket) most fans would prefer to pay the 12.50. Full season ticket package sales allow managers to increase revenues by overselling games the same way an airliner oversells flights in proportion to the expected no show rate. Example- a team can forecast no-show rates of 20 percent because the proportion of season ticket holders is high but a no-show rate of only 5% if the proportion of season ticket holders is low. A larger season ticket base allows executives to oversell events due to forecasting.

More games does not equal increased revenues, demand for the product does.
3,500 per game over the course of 16 games iwould be more profitable than 2,500 per game over the course of 24 games. Reducing the amount of games would reduce travel cost as well because 8 road games would also be elimanated.

...
Minot is the Sky Rockets. Sioux Falls is the Skyforce. Quite honestly, I don't think the D-League is staying in the Dakotas forever, they just needed those teams for a boost.

Sioux Falls is the D-Leagues most successful team, I don't see them leaving that league. Minot does not have a large enough business community for the team to create enough corporate partnerships, the population is too small and the people that are there don't make enough income required to purchase season tickets year in and year out and provide stable long lasting ssupport for a minor league basketball team. Sioux City Iowa, Fargo ND and Rapid City SD would have been better long term options in that region.

[Shootmaster_44]

it is better to have two Divisions with an All-Star game being held every season. And I think it is better to have 3 teams sit out for the playoffs, rather than just 1.
As far as Vancouver, they have the competition of the IBL Volcanos and I'm still skeptical about Atlanta joining, with them having competition with the ABA Vision and NBA Hawks.

Just a point of reference, Vancouver in the CBA is Vancouver, B.C., while Vancouver in the IBL is Vancouver, WA. I don't believe either will be in direct competition for fans as they aren't the same city.

[panchess]

..and I do think this year's CBA schedule had too many weekday games in it because of scheduling issues with all of the new arenas.

However, I am not seeing the problem of playing 48 games. I understand the pricing issue, but if you are making money on games, more is better. If you aren't, you aren't going to make it anyway. Colleges sell 18-20 game packages, at least the big ones like Syracuse. The cost doesn't keep people away.

First of all, the holiday weekends of Martin Luther King Day and President's Day can easily accommodate three games in four days. The CBA was inexplicably dark on MLK Day this year, which is a perfect day for a matinee to attract new fans (especially in cities like Albany, a state capital where most people were off). That's two. Same with Thanksgiving if the season goes back to starting in November (and I think Thanksgiving night should be the start of the season, with three games for every team between Thursday and Sunday).

The Christmas-New Year's week can be filled with games. While I don't personally like the Patroons annual Christmas Night game, all of those dates are "open" for games, and four or five games can be put in that week. Mid-week isn't the same for that week.

Combined with two games every weekend, that leaves about 10 mid-week games left during the season, most of which will be Western teams in the East or vice versa where it is cheaper to play than sit in a hotel on the other side of the country for a week.

I would mandate one matinee per team per season to invite all the school kids in the region. It was one thing the Michigan Mayhem, of all teams, did well, and tripled their normal attendance.

Minot and Butte may be too small. We'll find out.

[Pounder]

Since I'm kind of a western specialist...

Fact: The Billings and Rapid City markets have twice the income of current cba city Great Falls, and Casper Wy has twice the income of Billings and Rapid City. Reno and Spokane have twice the income as Casper. If the CBA targets cities in the NW the best cities are:
Reno ***
Spokane ***
Anchorage ***
Kennewick **
Casper **
Sioux City **
Billings **
Fargo**
Idaho Falls **
Rapid City ** (has roughly the same personal income as the Helena/Butte area)


I've not been to the Rushmore Events Center... but my hunch is that Rapid City is the perfect choice. The only competition is small college ball... and an apparent soon-to-arrive hockey team.

Billings would be a great market... but there's one major hitch. The Metra is too BIG. Billings has too many expectations with that arena. I wish people luck with that one.

Reno? Dangerous. Gambling towns generally don't work for minor league sports (Vegas hockey may be an exception, but my visit there early this month makes me skeptical). Nevada is a top 10 team in the NCAA right now, and they have not sold out ONE game this year (their rival game with UNLV came within a few hundred). That tells me something about the market. Besides, you won't get dates at Lawlor, and the convention center is expensive. (Maybe the rodeo arena? Don't know if that can accomodate basketball.)

Spokane? Similarly dangerous. Gonzaga. Washington State is an hour and a half away (and playing better this year: top 15). Even Eastern Washington has a future NBA player... not that they're a big draw. They have a hockey institution in the Chiefs. The Chiefs play in an arena bigger than the Metra in Billings, and even if you still like the Spokane market after assessing the competition, I think the one truly available building in town is too big.

Anchorage? Aces Hockey. UAA Seawolves hockey. WELL... there's a proposal by UAA to build an on-campus arena, primarily for hockey. That creates a potential opening at Sullivan Arena, which BTW is the right size. Other owners don't like the travel required, which will be a minus. Thing is, I see a lot of minuses, but there are ways in which this can happen.

Kennewick? Cautionary tale. Heck, what's the name of the arena now? It's a very hockey arena; the configuration isn't necessarily good for basketball, but if you move the court to one side (awkward given the overhanging scoreboard), maybe? Of course, I say cautionary because the Chinook didn't last that long. IMO, a better market for this level than Reno or Spokane, but I'm hedging mightily.

Casper? Facility there (might be similar to Kennewick- need to make the trip); is it a basketball town? Not a bad idea, and an idea being considered in all likelihood. Interesting info about the income, which must be oil and mine-based; 'cause IIRC the market is 60% the size of the Billings market.

Sioux City? Don't they have a new facility? I haven't been there in 26 years, and that was on a family trip and Sioux City was a drive-by.

Fargo... North Dakota State, from what I hear, runs the town. More than one league has bailed on this town.

Idaho Falls... I think that market is the same size as Casper. It looks like it's growing, but it isn't growing as fast as it appears, though probably faster than Casper. Major problem: NO arena. The high schools hosted the state HS tournament many moons ago, and it hasn't come back; and I don't recall the TV footage revealing a larger than normal gym for those purposes.

I don't have too many other suggestions, but I can think of a couple new arenas either on the horizon or just now in play.

Wenatchee WA... an old mall is being renovated into an events center with (if the rendering is accurate) a 5,000-seat arena, which will host BCHL junior hockey. It's 100 miles by car from Yakima, but about 60 by air. The market is actually larger than Casper by about 13,000. I'm not sure the agricultural economy base makes for a lot of income, however.

Bend/Redmond OR... there's an arena, and only now I find out that it's hockey ready, so basketball-capable. It's just in Redmond, 17 miles north of Bend. Bend is definitely larger, so this might be a dicey placement. Bend has rejected an arena ballot more than once. This market is closing fast on the size of the Billings market BTW, though I hear rumors of a bursting housing bubble here.

Prescott AZ... new arena in place hosts CHL hockey. Of course, it's way too far south of the CBA's target region.

Medford OR... Jackson County Fairgrounds has a reasonable arena, apparently. The market is larger than Bend. It's not growing as fast as Bend, but certainly faster than intermountain areas. Lumber-based economy has been dodgy in the past, but the growth is expat Californian FWIW.

Redding CA... I'm not sure their "convention center" can amply accomodate basketball, so the only arena MAY be a junior college. Larger than Medford (the city itself is probably approaching 90,000 by now, with a roughly equal number in the outlying areas), I've been warmer about this market than almost any other for a while. Place to play is the issue.

I could argue that poaching Salem from the clutches of the IBL could happen. There MAY now be three available suitable arenas (two of which are buildings on the state fairgrounds).

I suspect there's a reason the only rumors you hear about from my list come out of Bend (has to do with those income issues referenced earlier). I know that, in terms of population and growth, my list has more impressive stats, but I'm not taking income into account.

[psbf]

I agree, shootmaster44. I've been to both(visited D.C., but passed through Wash.), and there is no comparison. In fact, it surprises me to know that the Vancouver IBL team is in Washington. I did not know they were big enough to have a team(I passed through on Amtrak). No offense to anyone who may live there, though.

[panchess]

..the CBA only really needs one or two to work, given Yakama and the Montana teams. If the Bend and Vancouver expansion teams materialize, that may be enough for the forseeable future.

I don't necessarily think regions are good or bad, but the more teams in a region, the cheaper and easier scheduling is. Bus trips instead of flights.

Currently the CBA is projected to add expansion teams in Atlanta and Miami. They are 660 miles apart from each other, and Atlanta is at least that far from Indiana. Can that work? Pretty unlikely.

Add Jacksonville and Orlando from the ABA to the mix though, and all of the teams become viable, at least from a travel standpoint. Road teams can make one swing through the region, and the division games are all busable. Big difference.

[bectond]

I read up on Bend and it's a tourist town with low personal incomes, it's comparable to Salina, Kansas just slightly more affluent that Great Falls.
Wenatchee's market money wise is equal to Rapid City, so your right on that one I totally missed that area.
Salem would seem like a better D-League market than CBA because of the Blazers.
Medford may be too small.
The Helena/Butte area has twice the money of Great Falls and four times the money of Minot. It may be Apexs best market on paper. However, I don't know the area. I don't know if people from Helena look down upon people form Butte and would refuse to travel to their town. But Butte is right between Helena, Anaconda and Bozeman. You'd think that market would be one of the CBAs best.
If I where heading up the CBA i'd stay out of CA and AZ. The CHL builds arenas for their franchises so the leasing agreement there would be the worst. Rockford all over again. The D-League is taking over CA and if the team was successful it would surely be cherry picked.

[panchess]

..so I am sure that helped with franchise location.

Based on the stats, Minot has been the most impressive market then, outdrawing Great Falls and Butte with a small percentage of income. Sometimes economic data understates military towns, though, because many soldiers maintain their residency where they are from, and not where they are stationed.

I agree on the California and Arizona comments. That is D-League country, with three D-League teams there already, and likely more coming. That part of the country, from central Texas to California to Utah, is likely where most of the D-League will end up.

The Idahos and Dakota teams may have problems in the D-League in the long run, though. The Stampede thought they had a partner with the Jazz, and then Utah starts its own team in a Salt Lake suburb. If the league really expands to 30 teams, I could see those teams bought out and moved.

[bectond]

Idaho was the top grossing franchise in the history of minor league basketball. It was valued at well over a million dollars a few years back.
Hopefully, the Stampede can work out an agreement with the Sonics or Blazers. Maybe the NBA will allow non-affiliated franchses to operate in the D-League as well. If not you could be right, they will be back in the CBA. Sioux Falls however, is close to Minneapolis so they should be in the D-League for many years. If Washington and Bismarck keep their current agree same goes for Dakota. The CBA from now on should only operate in WA, OR, ID, MT, ND, SD, IA, NY, PA, WV, MA. And maybe MS, AL, GA and SC if they can get a stable cluster in the southeast together in the USA.
As far as Minot goes, your right if you add the income of the air force base with the cities Minots income equals that of Great Falls (I failing to calulate it in before). Butte should be out drawing Minot if Butte were marketed as a regional team.

[Pounder]

On Helena, Butte, and Bozeman...

I believe they share a TV market. That's a plus.

I do NOT believe that substantial numbers of fans will travel an hour for more than one CBA game per year. I might have done that at one point, but I moved into Boise from the Air Force town before the Stampede arrived. I don't even see "dozens" of people doing that.

Add to that the mountain passes that are often dodgy in wintertime. That might be even more of a factor when considering Helena and Bozeman. It's not hard to get stranded on I-90 in SUMMER if there's an accident, because the bypass roads don't really exist. Don't even ask about winter.

As such, Butte is a city of 36,000 with not much around it. Helena is a city of 25,000 in a county with 55,000. Both have more history in hockey. I've had a hard time understanding the CBA presence, frankly.

Noting on the other thread... Butte Civic Center holds perhaps 2,500, so if break-even is 2,400 per game, freaking forget it.

Given complaints about the sheer number of Californians buying McMansions in the Bend area, I'm starting to wonder about the income data you have. It's possible that not everything is factored in.

[psbf]

about the capacity of the Butte Civic Center? If it only holds 2,400 how did they get over 3,800 for the All Star game?

[panchess]

..posted capacity for basketball is 6,250.

I believe Great Falls was referenced with the 2,400 break even number. Wouldn't be too surprising for Butte as well though.

[bectond]

Given complaints about the sheer number of Californians buying McMansions in the Bend area, I'm starting to wonder about the income data you have. It's possible that not everything is factored in.

They must be second homes, their primary residence may still be in California.
Colorado and Wyoming are too expensive now(for second homes) more and more outdoors men are opting for Bend instead.

[panchess]

..aren't counted in the Census or a lot of other income data.

Whether those types of people would support a minor league pro basketball team is questionable.

[bectond]

..aren't counted in the Census or a lot of other income data.

Whether those types of people would support a minor league pro basketball team is questionable.

Then add to it the fact that most people visit Bned during the summer for fishing, hiking, kayaking and golfing. Which would exclude them from attending a basketball game. Some travel to Bend during the winter for skiing, however most of those folks won't likely attend games afterwards.

[kg21obf]

You dont know much about Bend. It is on par with resort towns anywhere. Home prices. Off the charts Huge$$$$

[panchess]

..we have that where I live (in the Hudson Valley of New York). Lots of expensive second-homes and wealthy visitors.

But that doesn't mean they would support a sports team. Once in a while it works (the collegiate Cape Cod League in Massachusetts is largely supported by tourists), but most of the time it doesn't because either that isn't a main activity for the tourists, or they have better options at home.

I have thought once or twice that a NY-P short-season team would have to work in Cooperstown, NY, the home of the Baseball Hall of Fame. If ever there was a natural tie-in, that is it, with the season almost exactly overlapping with prime tourist season. It's never happened though.

Particularly if the resort is summer-peak (as apparently Bend is), having a winter pro sports team isn't going to draw them.

[kg21obf]

I agree with you, Seattle,Portland and Nor Cal are where the Bend visitors come from. Why would they have any interest in attending a CBA game.

[Pounder]

The complaints I constantly hear from former residents do NOT indicate a city full of second homes.

The old-timers WISH they were second homes. They complain of newcomers tying up traffic, jacking up home prices (prices of everything, really), importing SUVs, and generally coming from California (some people recommend you sign up for Oregon registration BEFORE actually arriving; of course the DMV appears to be slowing down the process; there are incidents of abuse against vehicles with California plates and homes where ex-Californians reside).

Do the income figures include self-employed? Just wondering. It's possible the price inflation takes down the DISPOSABLE income totals, but who's to know for sure?

Bend does benefit from the tourist trade. It's a four-season resort, and it might have a summer peak, but Mount Bachelor does a LOT of business in the winter- it's better powder than the west-facing (near-direct shot from the Pacific, therefore often fighting slightly warmer temperatures) Cascade ski areas.

The deal is that Bend has tried to get an arena built; didn't quite work out. Many think hockey would fit with the winter crowd better than basketball, and that might be a good point.

I do think some of the assumptions written here are undereducated. Of course, I should make a Central Oregon IBL game this spring and report back...

One last: the folks settling from across the region get there and often DO decide they'd like a few more services in town. That's a constant in many growth cities in Oregon, the Sun Belt, what have you. Some people move and suddenly see the potential. Of course, you won't know until the business is established. I doubt an arena would end up getting taxpayer-funded in Bend proper... for now. Down the line, who knows?

***************

I should clarify something. The resort business is probably 95% out of town. Timeshare / Vacation Home / Golf resorts like Sunriver, Black Butte, Eagle Crest, Inn of the Seventh Mountain, and some others I'm forgetting are the kind of places that are summer homes and the like, and are all several miles out of town. I have no inclination that any sports business would draw from such crowds.