CBA Seems troubled

[kg21obf]

I have had season tickets to the SunKIngs for the last 4 seasons. The quality of play this year is way down. In the previous seasons many of the players had NBA experience or currently are now in the NBA. The website was updated numerous times throughout the day, the transaction wire was current to the hour. Yakima has made some player moves days ago that still havnt appeared. The teams that left for the NBDL often drew 2500-3500 fans. I notice the box scores often show o for attendance. If anyone can give me their best estimate on the attendance avg of their team, that would be cool. I enjoy the league and hope it survives. My guess is Yakima may go d-league and the rest of the league will fold. There is no way it can survive as is, the quality of play is no better than the aba. The league will improve through player movement over the next month, but its got a long way to go

[psbf]

Hi, I'm a season ticket holder for the Pgh. Xplosion and our total is down from last year, unfortunately, when we averaged 1,600+ for our last few games.
This year, I've seen less groups come in, so I would have to say that 1,130 was our largest. Attendence had not been announced, lately, but I would say we have been close to maybe 1,000.
I've been checking the box scores and many don't give their turnouts. But from what I have seen, Yakama and Albany are the highest. Your Sun Kings have average over 2,000 while Albany is around 1,500. I've read that some of Minot's crowds are over 1,000 as was at least one game for Great Falls. Utah is a couple of hundred, the last I'd seen. But keep in mind, your Sun Kings and the Patroons are the only returning teams from last season. So this is a rebuilding-experimental time for the league and support for each team is under a microscope, which is why I promote the Xplosion in this area as much as I can. I share your hope that this league will survive. I'm doing my part. If anyone else can add input from their team average, feel free.

[Letzplayball]

At the Minot games, they've been announcing crowds from 1200-1700. What I've been counting is 500-800. I know there are tickets sold for no shows that are being counted in the attendance, which is normal. I feel we have to give the league a little time this year. Hopefully, attendance will improve after the holidays for everyone. Minot had a IBA team a few years ago, and it was common for them to bring in 2000 plus. They had some rival games with Dakota (now NBDL) that would have 3500+ in attendance. I agree the talent looks weaker than what I expected. I was thinking there would be more polished players, with better skills as quoted as ex NBA'ers. I suppose most of them are in the NBDL or overseas. We've got to stay positive though, and hope the best is yet to come for the league.

[one way]

can you believe this- a guy from Minot questioning the talent of the league. Here you have an owner that signs a multi-year agreement with Minot, brings the team there, spends money there, and provides entertainment in the dead of winter where there probably is not that much to do. You should be thanking Apex and the CBA for coming to your city. I saw Bruno Sundov play in the CBA right after he was cut the Knicks- he stunk. And, I have seen many great CBA players who never get a sniff from the NBA. Enjoy your games in Minot, you have a CBA city, you will win games and you are a better position than me. I can only remember going to games, you can.

[mzracing76]

I posted these on another thread also.. along with the NBDL.

1-Yakima....................3049
2-Minot......................1501
3-Albany....................1360
4-Great Falls...............1064
5-Butte......................1023
6-Utah........................927
7-Pittsburgh.................857
8-Indiana.....................667

These Numbers Are ONLY Games reported. Pittsburh has only reported like 2-3 games according to the website, and Utah has reported 0 3-4 times. so i left them out of the average attendance and only counted the games that reported a number other than 0.

AND YES, The Talent Level is down in all of Minor League Basketball. this is a far cry from where we once were during the years of 1989-1997 when we probally had the 2nd BEST Talent in Basketball.

The NBDL (My SKyforce are apart of), is more of a ROOKIE League, you cannot have players with more than 3-4 years experience or over the age of 28.

Where as the CBA can have 5-10 Year Veterans in their league. but the Vet's are going overseas more often than not than ever before in the past.

Yes, we have had Better Players in the past, i dont even recognize any of these players anymore.

used to be a time when you could count on atleast 4-5 players return to your team from the year before. that aint the case anymore.


see, before Isaiah Thomas screwed the CBA in 1999, the CBA teams could pay $1100-1500 per week on a great Player, and atleast $800 per week on Rookie. but Thomas changed that by decreasing the numbers to bring in more Rookies and Players with 3 or less years experience and forcing the Veterans to go over sees. he kind of ruined the CBA and perhaps all of Minor League basketball more ways than you think.

MZ

[psbf]

The Skyrockets made it to the final 8 of the ABA playoffs last season, before the owners moved them to Minot, from San Jose. I heard that S.J. had a pretty good following, which leads me to wonder why they moved. With that being the case, Minot should be showing more support. From pictures I've seen, their facility looks less than half full.

[kg21obf]

What do the players in the cba make? I know they get their living expenses covered.

[psbf]

That idea may help to improve things for the Xplosion(with Pittsnogle and McAllister).

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

can you believe this- a guy from Minot questioning the talent of the league. Here you have an owner that signs a multi-year agreement with Minot, brings the team there, spends money there, and provides entertainment in the dead of winter where there probably is not that much to do. You should be thanking Apex and the CBA for coming to your city. I saw Bruno Sundov play in the CBA right after he was cut the Knicks- he stunk. And, I have seen many great CBA players who never get a sniff from the NBA. Enjoy your games in Minot, you have a CBA city, you will win games and you are a better position than me. I can only remember going to games, you can.

Ah, you remember when Bruno Sundov played for the Steelheads too? Sundov was horrendous. Sundov didn't like the physical contact of the American style of play. He said so in the local press and his timid play showed it. He was very tall and very awful. Where is he now?

You think Minot should be thankful for Apex? Follow the plight of Apex and find out what I've been saying all along. YOU should be thankful that Apex did not find their way to Rockford. Multiple team ownership does not work at this level. Not enough revenue can be generated. Resources are spread too thin.

[one way]

i do not know what your problem is with Apex. They saved the CBA. The CBA continues without Gary. And i heard that Gary wants to get back in next year. ken, stop being a doubting thomas. who cares where apex spends their money, be joyful minot, enjoy the games. i miss them. who cares what else is going on with these other leagues, take care of your team and enjoy it. ken, the usbl is struggling as well, and if you think that it is the answer, forget about it.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

You don't know what my problem is with Apex? Why? I just stated it.

I agree. The USBL seems to be struggling too and I'm not comfortable with the idea the USBL is still trying to secure franchises at this late date. Minor league basketball in general seems to be struggling (and Dr. Buss in LA isn't helping matters much by providing such a poor atmosphere for fans and players alike). However, I've heard nothing about the Steelheads returning to the CBA. Absolutely nothing! The Steelheads don't have to run anything by ole' Ken for approval, but the CBA isn't on the radar. Sonar maybe (below sea level, you know), but not on the radar scope.

You still didn't answer my question about Bruno Sundov. I tend to follow business happenings rather than the progress of players.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

I don't think he sells d-league tickets, therefore I don't believe he has any d-league fans to provide a poor atmosphere for other than himself and the 5-10 people on the Lakers staff and NBA scouts that watch D-fenders games. Besides he blows two times as much money on Rudy T than on this team (and 9 times more money on Brian Grant). I for one would not include Buss and his team in the struggling category, it is a tax write off for him plus since his team runs the triangle and none of the other nba or D-league teams do, where else could a developing young player go to learn it? His team is strictly for teaching young players the triangle offense so that in the future he has a competent group of young players in reserve that understand what his team is doing offensively.

...lately, people don't understand what I'm stating. I never said the D-fenders were struggling. I said, Dr. Buss is providing a poor atmosphere for his fans and players. It can't be much fun for season ticket holders and suite holders to sit in an empty cavern and vegetate. Was that one of the selling points for their ticket packages--two games for the price of one? If so, then it's a rip-off. People who spend THAT much money are there to see and be seen. What's to see if the Staples Center is void of human life?

...and what of the players? Small crowds throughout the league is bad enough, now they come to LA and play before dust mites. That scenario HAS to affect a player's pysche.

[sportsguy12]

...lately, people don't understand what I'm stating. I never said the D-fenders were struggling. I said, Dr. Buss is providing a poor atmosphere for his fans and players. It can't be much fun for season ticket holders and suite holders to sit in an empty cavern and vegetate. Was that one of the selling points for their ticket packages--two games for the price of one? If so, then it's a rip-off. People who spend THAT much money are there to see and be seen. What's to see if the Staples Center is void of human life?

...and what of the players? Small crowds throughout the league is bad enough, now they come to LA and play before dust mites. That scenario HAS to affect a player's pysche.

who straggle into a rec gym hoping to see an ABA game only to find it cancelled with no advance notice are happy as clams. Listen Ken, the point of the D-League is development.

DE-VEL-OP-MENT.

Minor league teams play in major league arenas to little fanfare all of the time. Bills are being paid as the coaches and players. Games are taking place as scheduled. No ones talking about teams folding or switching leagues (Steelheads).

So WTF are you talking about creating a poor atmosphere. It's not a 2-for-1 deal. It's a BONUS for people who own season tickets to come early (avoid traffic nightmares) and see the Lakers' future players. A few years from now, the team will move to Ontario and then they will operate like a normal minor league team.

For now, get off their back and take a chill.

[Pounder]

It's the standard in Europe.

Saturday is the traditional day for football league games. Monday is the traditional day for "reserve team" games in the same stadia, with practically nobody there. The lads are fighting for first team positions, and since they train with the first team, they know the philosophy of the coaching staff and try to work within that framework.

The D-fenders seem to follow exactly that model. With some adjustments, I expect to see more of this, not less.

[kg21obf]

919 at Great falls last nite, that my friends is not going to get it done. Once again I am not a hater. I am a Cba season ticketholder and enjoy it immensely with my sons, so I would hate to see it go away. But you have to be realistic. 500 to 1500 per nite around the league will spell massive losses, and even the potential of teams folding during the season.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Apex owns multiple teams so they can use their loses as tax shelters this year on teams 2-4. If this tread continues next year then they will have major problems.

Tax shelters? I'm seeing red flags (see the Red Flags thread) instead.

I hope I'm not coming across as a "know-it-all", but you can only take a tax shelter SO far. Apex is going to need some ACTUAL REVENUE to shelter. Remember, the 2006-2007 CBA has been operating for a little over a month now. Bills are due and mounting. What good is a tax shelter when you need cash NOW? Cash is king.

Please don't consider my use of CAPS as yelling. I've been using CAPS for emphasis on this board since we lost the use of emoicons, bold, and italics.

[psbf]

I don't know what the attendence was, when the Sky rockets were in San Jose, but I was curious. From what I have seen in news highlights of the Sky rockets in Minot, though, the turnout does not look good. I only see sporatic fans. I am curious about what their average is.
Here, in Pgh., our crowds have been decent, although nothing like last season(obviously).

[panchess]

..doesn't the CBA require each team to post a line of credit to help ensure operations for the season? That is one way, either by using the money, or threatening to so that the owners continue to operate. I think that is how Michigan got through the season last year. They presumably got the franchise fees for the six new franchises as well, along with any game payments the teams have to pay the league.

I agree on Apex, and cite Pittsburgh as an example, having sat behind their bench in Albany. Well-organized, disciplined coaches, but the head coach was a high school coach in Pittsburgh before moving to the CBA. I am sure he has a good name and skills, but it is a lot different coaching pros, and I think that is what you see down the stretch in a lot of the Xplosion's games this season is the difference between a pro coach and a non-pro coach.

Among the new teams, the Indiana Alley Cats may not draw well, but their coaches have pro experience. So does Minot. So does Utah. Great Falls's coach doesn't, but he does have a wealth of college experience that seems to be translating.

The Xplosion is the one CBA team set up most like an ABA franchise, with an empahsis on local coaches and players. It is also the one generating the worst results.

[psbf]

I agree, Paunchess. It is frustrating, for me, to go to each game and see the times that the Xplosion have the lead late(as example vs. Albany) only to lose the game on giveaways. They should be winning more.
The one game they had a 2 point lead with over a minute left. I shouted for him to just run out the clock. Instead the Patroons stole and won.
As far as Coach Anderson, I read that he only has H.S. and College experience. But Coach Thacker(last season) had no known pro experience either, yet we made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
I keep going because I love the Xplosion and I keep hoping that one day I'll see them win at home.
No doubt, that the CBA is a tougher league. But I think we give the ball away too much at the end. We need some players who can solidify a win. Kevin Pittsnogle is doing what he can, but it's a team effort. I hope it comes this weekend. It's frustrating to see opponents come in and leave with a win.

[panchess]

..in that the coach generally recruits the players. A Chris Daleo or Micheal Ray Richardson will be at camps, combines and the like in order to recruit players for the next season. It takes a while for a coach that hasn't been in the loop to get up to speed.

In the case of Coach Anderson, he got hired in October, so the Xplosion couldn't do any of that for this season. The result is that they got a couple good rookies, but the rest of the team is not quite up to the level of the rest of the league.

In 14 games, they've been outscored by 172 points (12.3 per game), which isn't bad given they only have one squeaker win. They also haven't been blanked in the quarter points in any game this season, which shows that at least in stretches of every game, they have been competitive.

[kg21obf]

Good Points. Yak coach Woolpert has so much experience, listening to the guys on the radio, most of them contacted him about a job. They know that he will always put a competitve team on the floor and run a first class operation. Another interesting CBa pt, look at theSac Kings coaching staff from top to bottom most of them came from the CBA. Cool that Muss gave those guys a chance.