2007 NBDL East Division...Based on Financial Strength

[BasketballUSA]

Ok, Based soley on information on financial strength of teams in the ABA, CBA and the new NBDL east cost teams for next year. Here is the division line up as of Today December 3, 2006. ( along with NBA affiliate). If your ABA or CBA team isnt listed, its becuase YOU have to face facts....your team doesnt have the staying power. (P.S. Utah in the CBA will not make it past Jan 30, 2007)

Buffalo (Cleveland)
Rochester (Boston)
Albany (NJ Nets)
Long Island ( Washington)
Trenton (Philadelphia)
New York City ( NY knicks)
Vermont (Charlotte)
Quebec (toronto)

[heavesrock]

A few questions

1. Is this fact? Do you know for sure that all this will happen?
2. How do you except all these teams to jump? I don't think Vermont, Buffalo, Albany, and Quebec have the money to jump. Buffalo I think wants a D-League team, but the others can't afford it.
4. Why don't all teams do what LA is doing? Playing in the same arena before games has huge advantages ie. easier scouting, first class training and medical attention, direction from NBA coaches, and the players are right there when they are called up. You may say that the costs are too much, but I think that a NBA team can afford to spend a couple million dollars on player development.
5. Why are you so dead set against the CBA and Vermont Frost Heaves?
6. How do you know all these fans will embrace the D-League. My personal opinion is that it is quite boring. Why will these fans embrace it if everywhere else they don't?

[panchess]

..those teams are D-League quality.

In all seriousness, the Patroons could move if they want to. Their manager, Jim Coyne, loves the CBA and at least for now, isn't interested in a move. Not only does Albany draw reasonably well, it is a logical post for either the Knicks or Nets.

Buffalo? Let's see a season of stability first.

I could see the RazorSharks going D-League. It is a well-run operation, but their owner is certainly more interested in the dollar than their league affiliation.

[panchess]

I doubt there will be D-League teams in Canada, if only for logistical reasons.

Toronto could easily have an affiiliate in Buffalo or Niagara Falls, which is far closer than Quebec City, or use Rochester. Quebec is like 10 hours from Toronto.

Same with Vermont. While it might make a good CBA/ABA location, what NBA city is it close to?

Long Island and NYC are not reasonable locations for D-League teams, unless they are like the Lakers and play before the "big team's" games. The Brooklyn USBL team draws like 50 people a game, and is basically financed by its owners.

The Wizards wouldn't set up shop in Long Island, especially for a new team. Baltimore, Newark, DE (a rumored USBL site) or Northern Virginia would all be more reasonable choices.

Trenton, NJ, on the other hand, would seem to be an excellent "place on a map" for a franchise, and the Soveriegn Bank Arena is the right size for a D-League team.

[sportsguy12]

Ok, Based soley on information on financial strength of teams in the ABA, CBA and the new NBDL east cost teams for next year. Here is the division line up as of Today December 3, 2006. ( along with NBA affiliate). If your ABA or CBA team isnt listed, its becuase YOU have to face facts....your team doesnt have the staying power. (P.S. Utah in the CBA will not make it past Jan 30, 2007)

Buffalo (Cleveland)
Rochester (Boston)
Albany (NJ Nets)
Long Island ( Washington)
Trenton (Philadelphia)
New York City ( NY knicks)
Vermont (Charlotte)
Quebec (toronto)

Newark has a new arena going in for the Devils, so they would be in the running, too.

I see
Buffalo (Cleveland)
Rochester (Raptors)
Albany (Nets) - at Pepsi Arena not at the Armory
Trenton (Phila)
NYC (Knicks)
Newark, NJ (Nets) in 2009
Baltimore (Bullets) - at either First Mariner Arena or UMd

Other south markets
Florida
Pensacola
Jacksonville
Miami (Heat)

[bdaly]

I could see the RazorSharks going D-League. It is a well-run operation, but their owner is certainly more interested in the dollar than their league affiliation.
I'm not sure this is true. They have interest in the D-League. However, with no teams in the east, such a move wouldn't be wise this year. And, the CBA has its own wealth of issues that would have been enough to keep me out of the league. It may work, teams may crash. The opening weekend wasn't a bust, but it didn't provide much of a honeymoon either. Let's just say crowds better grow, and not fall off.

[panchess]

.. I basically agree with you. Their owner might like a higher league, but doesn't have to have it. He isn't going to be writing a bunch of checks just to be in the D-League.

If you're in Newark, you might as well be in NYC. Not only are the costs lower, but a 6,000-8,000 seat arena is more reasonable for a D-League type team than a major league facility in terms of selling tickets and operating.

[panchess]

..I missed some of the above posts.

The Albany team should stay at the Armory, which is an excellent facility for a minor league team. Siena-UAlbany, the biggest game in the Capital Region every year, has never filled the 15,000 seat Pepsi Arena (soon to be Times Union Center). The River Rats hockey team has filled it once in 15 years, and normally averages about 4,000 a game. The place looks empty with 10,000 empty seats.

Besides, the Patroons owners own the Armory, so there is no real way that they are going back to the Pepsi.

[sportsguy12]

..I missed some of the above posts.

The Albany team should stay at the Armory, which is an excellent facility for a minor league team. Siena-UAlbany, the biggest game in the Capital Region every year, has never filled the 15,000 seat Pepsi Arena (soon to be Times Union Center). The River Rats hockey team has filled it once in 15 years, and normally averages about 4,000 a game. The place looks empty with 10,000 empty seats.

Besides, the Patroons owners own the Armory, so there is no real way that they are going back to the Pepsi.

If the Patroons want to stay CBA, which I assume they do. The only venue would be the TUCenter. Binghamton just opened a new gym at BU, which could make for a nice NY division between Bingo, Albany and Rochester. I don't think Syracuse would have enough interest. But who knows.

[suge night]

I went to the Flyers game over the weekend vs Bakersfield and those sorry LA -DF both days there were not more than 500 in the stands and now since Jerry Buss has already stated he will lose about 2 mill on this deal for this season the question still come's to mind how much can the other owner's lose and for how long the hope is that like Buss other NBA owners will want to make these teams their farm club but if it doesn't happen in the next two season's some of the D will be gone from this league once again remember this project has fallen two times before, Sterns put his godfather hands on it all out but if the other NBA owners don't buy in then even he can't make this work.

[panchess]

..I have been personally wondering (and know some people there) about running a USBL team in Syracuse. With the Big East connection and a relatively slack calendar in the spring, it could work.

Winter? I think SU dominates the scene too much, and the hockey team absorbs most of the rest. Four hockey teams failed there before the Crunch, which had a great marketing plan, and made a lot of money its first few years. They more-or-less break even now, I understand.

I think Binghamton is too small given the hockey team and the emergence of BU. Utica would be a better bet. No pro or college teams and a 4,800 seat arena for an area, while depressed, has almost 300,000 people.

[bdaly]

Utica is interesting. From what I've been told, their economy has rebounded a bit too. Plus, they are desperate for tenants for the 3,000 seat Auditorium. I believe a DIII hockey team is their main tenant. In a league with a reasonable breakeven, it might work. Hockey is probably seen as the city's preferred sport, but so many UHL owners have gone in and pulled out that I don't think they'd embrace a hockey team very quickly. Call Frank DuRoss. He's a Utica resident that used to own the AHL Providence Bruins and he's currently a majority owner of the Rochester Rhinos and Rattlers.

[Minor League Man]

In Florida:
1. I could see the Jacksonville Jam moving up (They'll have to change their name if it's D-League)
2. Pensacola is a no-go until at least 2009, per the Ice Pilots' lease says they can be the only sports tenant (An antitrust lawsuit could change that easily, though)
3. Lakeland and/or Daytona Beach could also work out.

We'll see...

[sportsguy12]

I went to the Flyers game over the weekend vs Bakersfield and those sorry LA -DF both days there were not more than 500 in the stands and now since Jerry Buss has already stated he will lose about 2 mill on this deal for this season the question still come's to mind how much can the other owner's lose and for how long the hope is that like Buss other NBA owners will want to make these teams their farm club but if it doesn't happen in the next two season's some of the D will be gone from this league once again remember this project has fallen two times before, Sterns put his godfather hands on it all out but if the other NBA owners don't buy in then even he can't make this work.

when you aren't selling tix for the games like the Lakers. The only people who have tix to the D-F are the Lakers ticket holders. They are part of that ticket game package.

[panchess]

is all it says on the Utica College web site. If it's 4,200 for hockey or so (which I vaguely remember from living in Central New York), you could get a few hundred more in for basketball.

Though such teams failed in the 1970's, and the population is at best stable, here is my case for how a pro basketball franchise would work there:

1) There remains an MSA population base of 300,000. In addition, it would
be possible to attract Syracuse people if the team had Big East players.
Big East crossover didn't exist in the 1970's. Utica-Rome is a lot bigger
than these areas in North Dakota and Montana that have CBA teams.

2) The arena is the right size. Not too small, not too big.

3) No college competition in the MSA. Syracuse is the 800-pound gorilla,
but it's 50 miles away. Colgate, the next closest school, draws no one.

4) No pro hockey team.

5) Big influx of Bosnians and Croatians in recent years. These are
basketball people, not hockey fans.

[mzracing76]

whats the difference, the NBDL is taking all the great markets away from the CBA, they just took their Top Two Markets (Sioux Falls & Bismark) this year. these are two teams that average 3000-4000 fans per game and actually make money.

For Years, Sioux Falls Lead the CBA in attendance (1994-2000) when we consistantly averaged 4700-5400 people per game and roughly took in about $350,000 - $500,000 in Corperate Dollars. I can remember those days. The CBA screwed up letting Sioux Falls leave.

MZ

[jamesaba]

Ok, Based soley on information on financial strength of teams in the ABA, CBA and the new NBDL east cost teams for next year. Here is the division line up as of Today December 3, 2006. ( along with NBA affiliate). If your ABA or CBA team isnt listed, its becuase YOU have to face facts....your team doesnt have the staying power. (P.S. Utah in the CBA will not make it past Jan 30, 2007)

Buffalo (Cleveland)
Rochester (Boston)
Albany (NJ Nets)
Long Island ( Washington)
Trenton (Philadelphia)
New York City ( NY knicks)
Vermont (Charlotte)
Quebec (toronto)

Where do you get your information??? Are you just throwing darts at names?

For one, according to you, Vermont can't have a pro basketball team because its biggest venues are too small.

What is your basis for assessing a team's "finanicial strength"?? Buffalo...are you serious??? They couldnt afford hotel rooms during last years playoffs!!

Quebec - they play in a high school gym and occassionally in a small college gym! Get your facts straight.

And what makes you think these teams want to jump to the NBDL or that the NBDL even wants them?? Going to the NBDL is going to increase their operating budget from 200-400k to 1.2 million+ Bigger losses. Every NBDL team lost a fortune...travel costs are too high and the product sucks. Not the talent - obviously the talent is higher than the ABA or CBA but the product. The same reason that Rochester stayed in the ABA and they and Vermont will be back next season.

[TEN]

Vermont won't be in the NBDL unless they get a regulation place to play because the NBA would never allow it...

[heavesrock]

[QUOTE=jamesaba;30321]
Quebec - they play in a high school gym and occassionally in a small college gym!
QUOTE]


Look at these pictures. If that's a high school or small college gym, that is a good one.
http://www.quebecbasket.com/fra/galerie-101106.html

[nksports]

I went to the Flyers game over the weekend vs Bakersfield and those sorry LA -DF both days there were not more than 500 in the stands and now since Jerry Buss has already stated he will lose about 2 mill on this deal for this season the question still come's to mind how much can the other owner's lose and for how long the hope is that like Buss other NBA owners will want to make these teams their farm club but if it doesn't happen in the next two season's some of the D will be gone from this league once again remember this project has fallen two times before, Sterns put his godfather hands on it all out but if the other NBA owners don't buy in then even he can't make this work.

Jerry Buss could probably lose all he wants on the team. I saw an interview with him last week on an NBA magazine show (showing at about 2 a.m.) and it sounded like an honest-to-God developmental team, sort of like a European soccer reserve game.
$2 million a year comes to what percentage of Kobe Bryant's salary?
Any losses on his D-League team he can easily write off on his taxes.

Then again, the Portland owner a few years ago claimed he was losing $1 million a year on his WNBA team and had losses of over $100 million on the TrailBlazers. So guess which team he folded?
The Cleveland owner folded his WNBA team just to put a couple more million in LaBron James' pocket.

[nksports]

But on the other hand, for all the brilliance ascribed to the Buss family, they should have kept Shaq and dumped Kobe.

[Sam Hill]

So Buss loses two mill on the D-Fenders.

After he sold the Sparks for $10 million.

Who's stupid now?

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Quebec - they play in a high school gym and occassionally in a small college gym!



Look at these pictures. If that's a high school or small college gym, that is a good one.
http://www.quebecbasket.com/fra/galerie-101106.html

Not that I care either way heavesrock, but it certainly looks like a high school or small college gym in the photos--not a very good high school or small college gym either.

[jamesaba]

[QUOTE=jamesaba;30321]
Quebec - they play in a high school gym and occassionally in a small college gym!
QUOTE]


Look at these pictures. If that's a high school or small college gym, that is a good one.
http://www.quebecbasket.com/fra/galerie-101106.html

Yes thats a high school gym...I've been there its in Laval. The seats are all on one side and go straight up in the air. Holds about 900 with standing room only.

[jjbballfan]

I believe that minor league clubs work best in smaller cities (60,000-200,000), Sioux Falls ran an artical on Amir Johnson and it stated how he likes Sioux Falls its a community where you can't get into trouble and so on.. He also stated that he asked to go down to Sioux Falls and when asked if he wanted to return he said no thanks. Midwest cities work the best because its the draw in Sioux Falls you have the Twins/Timberwolves 4+ hours away but nothing else.