Aba Going Up , Cba Going Down

[ABA06er]

The ABA appears much stronger then the CBA and with the CBA only having a few teams and most being owned by the same company spells even more trouble , what happens when that one company folds or leaves the CBA ? What you get is no more CBA, its a time bomb waiting to go off at any second.

The ABA has a lot of teams and with credible teams such as Rochester ( best minor leaque sports organazation at any level in my opinion) Vermont (being run by Alex Wolf from SI ) and the Hollywood Fame (owned by many many superstars including ABA commisioner an former NBA legend John Salley) Detroit (owned in part by Charlie Batch from the NFL ) Richmond ( owned by Allen Iversons mother)


So while the ABA continues to bring in high profile owners and is at over 50 teams , the CBA could be as good as done at any day now.

[Sam Hill]

Yeah, right, whatever.

"Best minor league sports organization at any level?"

I guess we know which "profitable ABA team" you work for now.

The Razorsharks do quite well, for which they are to be commended. But there are several minor league baseball teams and probably a few hockey teams who would like to have a word with you.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...The ABA has a lot of teams and with credible teams such as Rochester ( best minor leaque sports organazation at any level in my opinion) Vermont (being run by Alex Wolf from SI ) and the Hollywood Fame (owned by many many superstars including ABA commisioner an former NBA legend John Salley) Detroit (owned in part by Charlie Batch from the NFL ) Richmond ( owned by Allen Iversons mother)

Rochester isn't even the best minor league BASKETBALL organization. That distinction belongs to the Sioux Falls Skyforce...longevity. I'll wager that the Razorsharks are not even the best minor league organization in the city of Rochester. That distinction probably belongs to the Rochester Red Wings (baseball).

...but what do I know? You are right about the CBA and except for Sioux Falls, you might as well throw-in the NBADL too. Opening night 1700 in Tulsa and 1200 in another NBADL town (I can't recall)? That's pitiful. The general public won't become interested in minor league hoops until minor league hoops adopts the minor league baseball model.

[bectond]

You are right about the CBA and except for Sioux Falls, you might as well throw-in the NBADL too. Opening night 1700 in Tulsa and 1200 in another NBADL town (I can't recall)? That's pitiful. The general public won't become interested in minor league hoops until minor league hoops adopts the minor league baseball model.

The D-league teams drew well this weekend.
Bakersfield drew 5,836, Sioux Falls drew 5,772, Boise 3,980 & 2,302, Anaheim drew 3,151 and Austin drew 2,442. Tulsa (1,746) and Albuquerque (1,272) were the only teams that drew under 2,300 fans. These teams drew 10 times the amount of fans the avg. ABA teams gets per game. The CBA season has not started, I suggest waiting until the season starts before we bury the league.

[psbf]

You guys have such high standards as far as turnouts. I think any team with over 1,000 is a good building base(as long as it grows).
As far as the CBA, I resent the way most on here are denouncing it. Our season starts friday and I agree that you should give it a chance first. My team is one of those in it.

[TEN]

I disagree with your comment that 1000 is a good building base (as long as it grows).

You can pretty much count on the fact that if you draw 1000 on opening night....the attendance is not going up for game two and three.

Teams that are drawing 3000 to 5000 on opening night usually have a pretty good chance of making it because they will do 2000 on an average night....

Teams that draw 1000 on opening night...will probably draw 400 to 800 after that.

It all comes down to finances...and if you are drawing 1000 a night...and playing in a league with a legitimate budget...you will be writing a lot of checks from your personal account.

[panchess]

..is the Rochester Raging Rhinos soccer team. Great attendance and atmosphere for the matches.

It isn't really fair to compare the RazorSharks to long-standing franchises like the Red Wings, but you have to give them props for their efforts to date.

[Pounder]

Panchess anticipated my thunder.

BTW, I'm making sure to amass these comments on an 06er post, even if it was already posted elsewhere...

http://nwitimes.com/articles/2006/11/26/columnists/al_hamnik/e16aceb247a6e23886257232000637ca.txt

Doesn't mean I'm all that rosy about the CBA. The ABA deserves a light of shame shown on them.

[bdaly]

..is the Rochester Raging Rhinos soccer team. Great attendance and atmosphere for the matches.

It isn't really fair to compare the RazorSharks to long-standing franchises like the Red Wings, but you have to give them props for their efforts to date.
I would say the Wings run the smoothest ship of all. They have a good size dedicated staff and it shows. In terms of operations, I think the Razorsharks do a very nice job and might be number two. It didn't surprise me to see the two organizations team up and advertise each other's product. The Rochester Sports Group (Rattlers, Rhinos, Amerks, Knighthawks) does a fine job. At times, they look a little stretched on operations because they share staff though, but they do well.

The other pro team, the indoor Raiders, are renovating a (near) downtown property and turning it into more of a sports arena. Depending on the final capacity of the Armory, I wonder if the Razorsharks might find it appealing on certain dates. Because of arena competition, they don't get many prime dates, although hopefully the rent reflects that.

[rams80]

I would advance the cause of the Americans in Rochester as well, sees as they are the second-longest running team in the AHL (behind only Hershey)

[WHAFAN]

First of all, I would classify the Chicago Wolves of the AHL as the model of minor league sports ownership. Second of all, I'm having a very difficult time trying to figure out why owners by the dozens, one after another continue to dump their money into Uncle Joe's pockets and do nothing but fail. The teams are only as strong as the league they play in. What good does having a perfectly run team with strong ownership when half the time, other teams can't afford to get to your arena, or afford to stay nearby? What has the ABA learned since 2000? Its the same mess its always been and always will be. The original ABA was a major league, this version is below Class A. I've seen more organized softball games at family picnics. As long as the check clears...........lets play ball!!

[Sam Hill]

Well, let's not romanticize the original ABA, please. People have this tendency to think that it was always Dr. J and David Thompson and McNichols Sports Arena and they forget that for much of its existence, the original ABA was fly-by-night.

The difference is, you could do that in the late 1960s/early 1970s. There weren't as many "major league" sports teams and leagues and not as many minor leagues that were trying to horn in on the entertainment dollar. You could do stuff by the seat of your pants back then and get away with it. You can't do it today.

The landscape (and the money to be lost) is much, much different now than it was then.

That said, the ABA of today is a joke and isn't much above a recreational league. And I don't believe it ever will be.

[heavesrock]

I would just like to point out that there are about 115 better run minor league baseball and independent baseball teams better run than the Razorsharks. Then add on the better run hockey and basketball and lacrosse and soccer teams. The Sharks are well run, but not as well as you think.

[DakotaWizardsFan]

The D-league teams drew well this weekend.
Bakersfield drew 5,836, Sioux Falls drew 5,772, Boise 3,980 & 2,302, Anaheim drew 3,151 and Austin drew 2,442. Tulsa (1,746) and Albuquerque (1,272) were the only teams that drew under 2,300 fans. These teams drew 10 times the amount of fans the avg. ABA teams gets per game. The CBA season has not started, I suggest waiting until the season starts before we bury the league.

To add to that the Dakota vs. Sioux Falls game drew around 3600 fans. I forgot the exact number.

[psbf]

I just read that the Las Vegas Venom folded.

[bdaly]

I would just like to point out that there are about 115 better run minor league baseball and independent baseball teams better run than the Razorsharks. Then add on the better run hockey and basketball and lacrosse and soccer teams. The Sharks are well run, but not as well as you think.
I don't know that it's fair to make an across the board statement. The Razorsharks aren't perfect, for example they've had a ton of website redesigns and they didn't update the Buffalo loss (I don't suspect that's coincidence). But, in terms of a game experience, they do very well. An usher who works with all the local teams enjoys working with the Red Wings and Razorsharks organizations most. I'm not terribly surprised by that conclusion. They do well in regards to promotions and marketing. I'd bet there are teams in all the aforementioned leagues that are not run as well as the Sharks. Of course, I'm sure there are some that are done better because they have large dedicated staffs. The Red Wings pretty much have a noteworthy promo almost every night; the Razorsharks certainly aren't at that level.

The Sharks have a small staff. But their operations are impressive given the resources. The ABA's issues are no secret in the local media. Despite that, they impress enough with the product on and off the court to overcome it and draw well in what is really a crowded sports market. The Amerks are 16-2-1 now, the Knighthawks are always competitive, and the Bills, SU and the Sabres attract attention while RIT has gone DI in hockey. They deserve a lot of credit for doing what they've done; I really didn't think there was room when they entered. Although, I was most impressed after seeing the semifinal game last year when I saw the team's owner invite perhaps the team's most rabid fan and his family to dinner (as I happened to be nearby on the floor). Talk about class--the fan was pretty shocked to say the least.

[heavesrock]

I didn't say the Sharks were run poorly. I merely stated that there are many organizations run as well or better than them. They run a first class operation, no question about that. However, there are also many other well run organizations in other sports or in other basketball leagues.

[Fells]

Well, let's not romanticize the original ABA, please. People have this tendency to think that it was always Dr. J and David Thompson and McNichols Sports Arena and they forget that for much of its existence, the original ABA was fly-by-night.

The difference is, you could do that in the late 1960s/early 1970s. There weren't as many "major league" sports teams and leagues and not as many minor leagues that were trying to horn in on the entertainment dollar. You could do stuff by the seat of your pants back then and get away with it. You can't do it today.

The landscape (and the money to be lost) is much, much different now than it was then.

That said, the ABA of today is a joke and isn't much above a recreational league. And I don't believe it ever will be.

Sam,

You are right about the original ABA as it wasn't all many claim that it was. The original ABA was a league where teams did fold early in the season, had problems with payroll, etc. It also had a reputation for being a rough and tumble league where guys could pretty much get away with anything on the court.

To its credit, the original ABA did develop some strong talent, and was good enough for the NBA to absorb teams that still exist in the current NBA. BUT, by no means is the current version of the ABA even comparable to the old. I like the rules, the emphasis on defense, etc, but with the way it is now being run, it won't go anywhere unless things change.

[psbf]

I remember the teams from the old league, in addition to the 4 NBA transferrs; Carolina Cougars, the San Diego Conquistadors, Miami Floridians, Utah Stars, etc..

[boing]

The original ABA had six teams fold in its history. The Floridians and Pittsburgh Condors folded after the 1971-72 season. The Baltimore Claws folded before the 1975-76 season. The San Diego Sails and Utah Stars folded during the 1975-76 season. The Virginia Squires folded immediately after the 1975-76 season. Several teams moved once, twice, three times.
The original ABA was never very stable, but there is no comparison to the current debacle.

[psbf]

Oh right, the Pgh. Condors(who had been the Pgh. Pipers), before moving to Minnesota then back here.

[bdaly]

I didn't say the Sharks were run poorly. I merely stated that there are many organizations run as well or better than them. They run a first class operation, no question about that. However, there are also many other well run organizations in other sports or in other basketball leagues.
Makes sense. I was mainly responding to the statement that "there are about 115 better run minor league baseball and independent baseball teams." That sounded like a blanket statement where you were saying almost everyone in baseball is better run. From having seen the Razorsharks versus a few pro baseball teams, I'm not sure that's the case across the board. You can start with the Syracuse Skychiefs, which just tosses their product on the field and hopes for the best. The Syracuse media is pretty critical of them at times. There are many innovative teams in baseball like Buffalo and Rochester on operations, but there are others that could learn a thing or two from the Razorsharks or any of the other good minor league basketball teams.