Gary Steelheads bolt from CBA

[ABA06er]

Gary Steelheads left the CBA for the USBL ...

Is it safe to say the USBL is a much better leaque then the CBA ?

[one way]

I think that this is more of a cost related move - shorter season - less player payroll, etc.

[psbf]

It's not going to hurt the CBA any, since we have our teams and the season is almost here.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

It's not going to hurt the CBA any, since we have our teams and the season is almost here.

Are you serious? The loss of Rockford and Gary were the final nails in the CBA coffin. If you're talking about the timing of the announcement, then you're right. Gary was gone a long time ago, so Tuesday's press announcement changes nothing. The move to the USBL is just official now.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Gary Steelheads left the CBA for the USBL ...

Is it safe to say the USBL is a much better leaque then the CBA ?

It's certainly safe to say that the Steelheads think the USBL is a much better league than the CBA.

I think that this is more of a cost related move - shorter season - less player payroll, etc.

Yes, the cost savings were also attractive to Gary.

[psbf]

If I were in your shoes, Ken, I'd probably say the same. But the Xplosion moved into the CBA from the ABA, where there was no future. So I(and us here in Pgh.) feel that we have a future and the CBA is better than the one we were in. I don't care about the fact that this league has only 8 teams, but I am sure the league will improve, as will the Xplosion.
As for Gary, more power to them(yes I was talking about the timing of the announcement). If you still disagree about the CBA, well all I can say is to each his own.

[mzracing76]

What makes you think that Pittsburgh will support a CBA team now? they had a team back in 1995-96. and even went to the CBA Finals that year with a record of 27-29. even then, they could not gain much support in Pittsburgh. they averaged only 1000 fans or less that season. they defunct after one season there. the Piranah's franchise was even a great team in the CBA also. beings they were the former LaCrosse Catbirds team that won titles in 1990 and 1992 under the direction of Flip Saunders.

I have been a Fan of the CBA sinc 1989 when my hometown Sioux Falls Skyforce began play. I have studied the league, and have followed it much closely, and continue to do so even though my team is in the D-League now. I dont know what to expect from the D_League, but i wil miss the CBA good old days.

i can now see why we moved to the new league. for one, they wanted Mo McHone back, and Mo wouldnt have come back if we stayed in the CBA, so that was one decision. plus, in the D-League, the League pays the players.

But i dont understand the direction the CBA is going. they are going back to cities that didnt work out in the past. such as: Pittsburgh, San Jose, and big markets. they always seem to go to the wrong places. and that is where they get screwed.

as for Gary Steelheads, that franchise is F**cked. they have never made sound business moves, and they do not have the fan support that one needs to stay active.

I do beleive this...a team needs atleast 3500 average attendance, 2000 season tickets deposits, atleast $150,000 corperate sponsors, and a decent Arena Deal to be a good team in the CBA or D-League. if they/team dont recieve this, then they are dead. and i beleive the Steelheads are a Dead beat team.

the CBA is going to lose the war now. their best Franchise (Sioux Falls) is gone now. they have counted on the Skyforce to attract fans for years, and by them leaving for the D-League to me, says a lot about the league.

but, in the end, I hope the best for the CBA< and will forever follow that league.

<what i would like to see happen>
The CBA and D-League unite as one, with their better franchises, and make one formable league. but that will never happen.

MZ

[psbf]

mzracing76, I'm guessing that you don't live here. I went to the Piranhas games, many of them. I saw the crowd grow and I still have their program.
The Piranhas grew to just under 5,000 for both of those CBA Championship title games(winning one of two). I remember vividly.
As for the Xplosion, we drew well when we were in the ABA, going from just 75 to about 2,000, which I think is pretty darn good! I don't know how fans will respond this season, but I would hope they are like me, just glad to have a pro Basketball team. Unlike the ABA, the CBA offers affiliation with the NBA and I'll argue with anyone who says that the Xplosion have no future. I'm a proud season ticket holder and I promote them as much as I can. I look forward to the season.

[Sam Hill]

The Piranhas grew to just under 5,000 for both of those CBA Championship title games(winning one of two). I remember vividly.

True facts:

1994-95 CBA Finals Game 3 at Pittsburgh, April 26, 1995: 2,174 attendance
1994-95 CBA Finals Game 4 at Pittsburgh, April 28, 1995: 4,223 attendance
1994-95 CBA Finals Game 5 at Pittsburgh, April 29, 1995: 3,960 attendance

Pittsburgh won two of the three.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

...as for Gary Steelheads, that franchise is F**cked. they have never made sound business moves, and they do not have the fan support that one needs to stay active.

I do beleive this...a team needs atleast 3500 average attendance, 2000 season tickets deposits, atleast $150,000 corperate sponsors, and a decent Arena Deal to be a good team in the CBA or D-League. if they/team dont recieve this, then they are dead. and i beleive the Steelheads are a Dead beat team...
MZ
The Steelheads always had a great arena deal and still do.

Actually, I agree with the past tense of what you said about the Steelheads. Let's hope it's not present tense though. Let's also hope they attract a somewhat different fan base. A fan base that doesn't expect to get into the house free. Gary has new owners and a new league and they don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Last season the Steelheads didn't get their letter of credit into the CBA league office until early July for the winter 2005-2006 season. Fan support waned because of the late marketing start. The Genesis Center didn't become packed until Gary made their run for the finals. It was quite nauseating (at least to me) to see fans jumping in front of the video scoreboard camera waving homemade signs and terrible towels as if they had been supporting the team the entire season.

Gary, an established CBA team, didn't start marketing until July and suffered at the gate as a result. Can you imagine the task at hand for the new CBA teams? None of those new teams had a significant amount of time to market.

The Steelheads have the opportunity to drop the "dead beat" image (as MZ calls it) this Spring. Seventh straight season of operation and still no respect. Sigh!

[psbf]

It's good that you have facts, Sam, so I'm guessing that you live here in which case I would hope to see you at the Xplosion opener.

[psbf]

The difference between the Piranhas and Xplosion, the Piranhas owners purchased a championship team in LaCrosse, Wisc. and moved them here for a season. Unfortunately, they only lasted that one season because the owner got greedy. LaCrosse formed another team the following season and also named them the Catbirds(the name the Piranhas had before moving).
The Xplosion are lead by a former ABA/NBA star, who is majority owner and is more interested in us fans, than trying to make a buck. I think he is doing it right, which is why I feel the Xplosion will last. Local talent will help, which they are adding.
ps, I thought that was a best of 5 series, hosted(and won) by Yakima, in 95.

[Chuck the Writer]

The difference between the Piranhas and Xplosion, the Piranhas owners purchased a championship team in LaCrosse, Wisc. and moved them here for a season. Unfortunately, they only lasted that one season because the owner got greedy. LaCrosse formed another team the following season and also named them the Catbirds(the name the Piranhas had before moving).
The Xplosion are lead by a former ABA/NBA star, who is majority owner and is more interested in us fans, than trying to make a buck. I think he is doing it right, which is why I feel the Xplosion will last. Local talent will help, which they are adding.
ps, I thought that was a best of 5 series, hosted(and won) by Yakima, in 95.

The second LaCrosse franchise was known as the Bobcats, not the Catbirds. Also, the Pittsburgh-Yakima CBA championship series was a best of seven.

[psbf]

While I appreciate the help, with all due respect Sam and Chuck, I would like to think that I know what happened, since I was there. I may have to check my ticket stubs(yes I still have them) but I do have some knowledge of them.
They had been the Cat Birds, before moving here.

[Sam Hill]

psbf: I suggest you do a little research as your memory is a bit faulty.

My facts come from the 1995-96 CBA Guide (and, no, I don't have to be in Pittsburgh to have facts). The 1994-95 CBA Championship Series went 6 games, with Yakima winning 4 games to 2.

Game 1: 4/20/95 at Yakima: Yakima 110, Pittsburgh 97 (att. 3,286)
Game 2: 4/23/95 at Yakima: Yakima 116, Pittsburgh 113 (att. 4,086)
Game 3: 4/26/95 at Pittsburgh: Pittsburgh 105, Yakima 100 (att. 2,174)
Game 4: 4/28/95 at Pittsburgh: Pittsburgh 106, Yakima 94 (att. 4,223)
Game 5: 4/29/95 at Pittsburgh: Yakima 102, Pittsburgh 99 (att. 3,960)
Game 6: 5/1/95 at Yakima: Yakima 94, Pittsburgh 92 (att. 4,805)

This article (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04025/265344.stm) from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette notes that the Piranhas averaged 1,635 fans a game in their one season in the CBA.

There's a reason eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable in court cases: the human memory is more faulty than we like to admit. That's why sports leagues actually keep track of things and write them down.

You may think you're remembering things correctly, and perhaps you are. But your memory conflicts with the official record.

And, as I often ask, do you think I'm making this stuff up?

[Chuck the Writer]

While I appreciate the help, with all due respect Sam and Chuck, I would like to think that I know what happened, since I was there. I may have to check my ticket stubs(yes I still have them) but I do have some knowledge of them.
They had been the Cat Birds, before moving here.

Yes, the first franchise in LaCrosse was the Catbirds, and that team moved to Pittsburgh, but the second franchise in LaCrosse was the Bobcats. That team lasted until 2001. Trust me on this one.

You really want to have a battle over franchise names? Look what I gotta deal with at the CBA Museum, where Hazleton PA had, at one time or another, the Mountaineers, the Professionals, the Hawks, the Bits, the Bullets - ow, my poor head. That's not even counting the Lancaster Red Roses / Rockets / Lightning, the Scranton Miners / Apollos / Aces, the Allentown Rockets / Keys / Jets, the Reading Keys / Rangers / Merchants / Keys, the Hartford Capitols / Downtowners / Hellcats / Pride, the Trenton Capitols / Colonials / Pavers / Colonials - anybody got an aspirin?

[psbf]

On LaCrosse 2nd team, yes. On the facts here, not a chance. The only thing good you did, about the Championship series was to remind me that it was nearly 4,000 and not 5,000.
I remember hearing the Piranhas games on radio. And that average that you supplied is only during the regular season. It was almost filled to capacity in the Championship and grew during the playoffs-trust me!

[Sam Hill]

On LaCrosse 2nd team, yes. On the facts here, not a chance. The only thing good you did, about the Championship series was to remind me that it was nearly 4,000 and not 5,000.

That's all I was trying to do.


I remember hearing the Piranhas games on radio. And that average that you supplied is only during the regular season. It was almost filled to capacity in the Championship and grew during the playoffs-trust me!

Evidently, based on the numbers. Just pointing out the facts to go with the recollection.

[psbf]

Thanks.

Sam, since you don't live here(I'm guessing), you may want to leave the Pgh games to me(unless you want to ask about a game)?

[Sam Hill]

You don't get it, do you?

Can only the people who live near Gettysburg, PA tell me about Lincoln's address? Is that not in a history book somewhere?

Can only the people who live in Los Angeles tell me about the USC/Notre Dame game last night, or can I actually read about it in a newspaper or online?

Bottom line: Your memory conflicts with the official record. The official record is open for anyone who lives anywhere to see and read, for all history.

You were wrong about the number of games that were played. You were wrong about the attendance (unless for some reason they were underreporting attendance). Yet you continue to insist that you're the only person who can be trusted about events that happened 11 years ago because you witnessed them.

Enough already.

[psbf]

I figured that you were relying on online articles and etc.. What I'm saying is why go there when you have someone who went to the game. My memory may be a bit fuzzy about things, but I do remember the place was almost full.
Why do you have to debate me? Why not respect the fact that I was there! This is the part that I'm frustrated with. You give me no credit for actually being there(or maybe I missed it somewhere).

[Sam Hill]

I figured that you were relying on online articles and etc.. What I'm saying is why go there when you have someone who went to the game.

Almost 12 years ago. All I'm saying is that your memory doesn't jibe with the historical record. The contemporaneous accounts of what happened carry more weight with me than someone's memory of something that happened more than a decade ago.

My memory may be a bit fuzzy about things, but I do remember the place was almost full.

It may very well have been. I have no idea where they played or what the capacity was. I have no idea how many people were there. All I know is how many people the official statistics of the games say were there. And it's a lower number than your crystal-clear recollection.


Why do you have to debate me? Why not respect the fact that I was there! This is the part that I'm frustrated with. You give me no credit for actually being there(or maybe I missed it somewhere).

No, I know you were there. You want a cookie?

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. You remember what you want to remember. I've already proven your memories to be inconsistent with what was written at the time.

[sportsguy12]

True facts:

1994-95 CBA Finals Game 3 at Pittsburgh, April 26, 1995: 2,174 attendance
1994-95 CBA Finals Game 4 at Pittsburgh, April 28, 1995: 4,223 attendance
1994-95 CBA Finals Game 5 at Pittsburgh, April 29, 1995: 3,960 attendance

Pittsburgh won two of the three.

First off, you can't just throw out numbers without knowing if those were weekday games (where numbers are generally lower than weekend dates). Also, were the Pirates home or was there a snowstorm, etc. All of these are factors.

These numbers (although 2,174 is low) aren't bad for CBA teams. CBA teams don't draw fans in the five-digits like the NBA. These might be true facts, but you are not truly knowledgable about the minor league basketball.

[Sam Hill]

First off, you can't just throw out numbers without knowing if those were weekday games (where numbers are generally lower than weekend dates). Also, were the Pirates home or was there a snowstorm, etc. All of these are factors.

These numbers (although 2,174 is low) aren't bad for CBA teams. CBA teams don't draw fans in the five-digits like the NBA. These might be true facts, but you are not truly knowledgable about the minor league basketball.

{Removed by admin}

I wasn't making any judgment whatsoever about whether or not those were good numbers or bad numbers (actually, considering what the Piranhas drew during the regular season and the market and the league, those aren't bad for the CBA).

I was pointing out that psbf's recollection was wrong.

4/26/95 was a Wednesday. 4/28/95 was a Friday. 4/29/95 was a Saturday.

The Pirates were home on the Wednesday but in Philadelphia on Friday and Saturday.

The high on Wednesday, April 26, 1995 in Pittsburgh, PA was 65 (so says almanac.com). No snow.

Friday the 28th, 1995 had a high of 57, low of 43, and 0.12' of precipitation, but doesn't distinguish between rain and snow. Chances are it was rain.

Saturday the 29th it was back up to 65. No precipitation.

I know all of these factors can contribute to varying degrees to what you can draw as a minor league sports team. I've actually been there when it comes to that.

I was making no judgments whatsoever that you're trying to accuse me of, nor was I showing any ignorance of what it takes to build a crowd.

For the last time, I was pointing out that psbf's crystal-clear recollections are at odds with the official record.

{Removed by admin}

[psbf]

I just looked up in the Piranhas program from that year, the actual capacity of Palumbo Center(where they played) was 5,084. I don't know where you got your figures, but they did grow toward the finals.
The paper, recently said that the Xplosion turnout for last season was between 75-1,000. I can tell you for fact that they reached 2,000.
I don't know where you got those figures, but the place was nearly full, regardless of those figures you posted.
Now, let's move on!

[sportsguy12]

Hey, sports guy: go fark yourself. I know more than you and a hell of a lot more than you think ... Now get lost.

This is just a message board. I wasn't questioning you're knowledge or saying that I was a know-it-all. Relax! It wasn't my intent to offend you. I apologize ... I didn't read far enough back in the chain of messages. I, too, have followed the CBA over the years.

[preeths]

Easy, no reason for anyone to take this personally. Sam Hill, you posted your source, which is all you can do. I don't think either side is going to convince the other, so let's just let the readers make up their own minds on if they believe published numbers over a recollection.

[mzracing76]

Lets See: 1994-95 was a very good year for the CBA that year, Attendance was Up. here it is.

1-Rapid City Thrillers....................5343 per game.......65% Capacity
2-Sioux Falls Skyforce..................5252 per game.......82% Capacity
3-Mexico City Aztecas.................5170 per game........25% Capacity
4-Oklahoma City Cavalry..............4769 per game.......34% Capacity
5-Quad City Thunder..................4331 per game........45% Capacity
6-Fort Wayne Fury.....................3973 per game........64% Capacity
7-Yakima Sun Kings....................3714 per game........68% Capacity
8-Omaha Racers........................3433 per game........62% Capacity
9-Connecticut Pride....................3405 per game........48% Capacity
10-Rockford Lightning..................2943 per game........33% Capacity
11-Shreveport Storm...................2854 per game........34% Capacity
12-Grand Rapids Hoops................2796 per game........80% Capacity
13-Pittsburgh Piranahs................1635 per game.........32% Capacity

NOTES: Grand Rapid's played in the smallest Stadium (3500 Capacity) in the League, while the Mexico City Azteca's played in the Largest Stadiium (21,000 Capacity). 1994-95 was also the Best Attendance Year for the CBA in general. we had 12 of the 13 teams average more than 2000 fans, with Pittsburgh being the weakest link. Far cry from their days as the Lacrosse Catbirds days when they averaged 3000-4000 fans a game and lead the CBA in attendance from 1986-1990.

Of Course, i beleive National TV Exposure was to blame for the increase in Attendance this year. as MET TELEVISION Televised 2 games a week that season.

RANK THE TEAMS BY ORDER OF CAPACITY:
1-Sioux Falls............................................. .....................82%
2-Grand Rapids............................................ ...................80%
3-Yakima............................................ ...........................68%
4-Rapid City.............................................. .....................65%
5-Fort Wayne............................................. ....................64%
6-Omaha............................................. ..........................62%
7-Connecitcut....................................... .........................48%
8-Quad City.............................................. .....................45%
9-Oklahoma City.............................................. ...............34%
10-Shreveport........................................ ........................34%
11-Rockford.......................................... .........................33%
12-Pittsburgh........................................ .........................32%
13-Mexico City.............................................. .................25%

AVERAGE ATTENDANCE, 1994-95.......................................3816
AVERAGE CAPACITY, 1994-95............................................46%

[mzracing76]

The CBA Does Not Have a Affliation System with the NBA. they havent had one since 1992 i beleive. i am talking about a real Team by Team Affliation System with each of the 30 NBA teams. THey quit that back in 1992.

but they did have a contract with the NBA to be the Official Developmental League to the NBA from 1980s to about 1998. Basically for training ground for the Officials, Players, Management, Cheerleaders, and Mascots. or basically whomever wanted a career in the NBA.

a AFFLIATION SYSTEM didnt come back until the formation of the D-LEAGUE.

MZ

[USBasket_EricE]

Wow, the CBA was fairly large that year (1994-1995). Which season had the most teams at one time?

Geez, the majority of this topic entitled "Gary Steelheads bolt from the CBA" is an argument about how many people attended a certain game in Pittsburgh. Strange how topics can change. It's like that game I played as a little kid called "Telephone" where the first person makes up a sentence and whispers it into the next kid's ear and so on. And when the message gets to the last person, it's completely different!

[psbf]

When it comes to Pittsburgh, I wish posters would include the Xplosion as part of the league. In otherwords, talk about the strengths and weaknesses, rather than whether or not this city belongs in the league. I just feel as though we are being singled out, for whatever reason and that's not right.

[mzracing76]

actually...if you want to know...

Year by Year CBA Teams:

1989-90: 16
1990-91: 16
1991-92: 17 (Bakersfield (San Jose) ceased operations during year)
1992-93: 16
1993-94: 16
1994-95: 16 (Hartford & Harrisburgh ceased Operations during year)
1995-96: 13 (San Diego ceased Operations during the year)
1996-97: 12 (Florida (Rapid City) and Oklahoma City Ceased at end of yea)
1997-98: 9
1998-99: 9
1999-00: 9 (Isaiah Thomas Screwed over the CBA this year)

MZ

[mzracing76]

CBA EXPANSION:

1989-90:
1-Sioux Falls Skyforce
2-Santa Barbara Islanders (Sonny Allen was the coach)
3-San Jose Jammers (Corey Russell was the coach)
4-Grand Rapids Hoops

***Santa Barbara & San Jose lead the league in Scoring averaging 128ppg and 125ppg respectively. it was a challenge playing them. the Islanders defunct after one season with no Attendance Support. while San Jose Moved to Bakersfield after the 1990-91 season.

1990-91:
1-Oklahoma City Cavalry

1991-92:
1-Fort Wayne Fury

1997-98:
1-Idaho Stampede

2000-01:
1-Dakota Wizards
2-Saskatwan Hawks
3-Flint Fuse
4-Fargo/Moorhead

***NOTES: These were the IBA Teams coming uniting to the CBA

actually, the CBA did a good job with the expansion teams. the teams that couldnt make it were the already existing teams .

SIoux Falls, Oklahoma City, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Idaho were all pretty decent teams which lead the league in attendance atleast once in their lifetimes. except for Grand Rapids which played in a small arena (3500 people).

Grand Rapids' downfall was the opening of the Van Andel Arena which held 12,000-14000 people. and the hockey team came into play also.

Oklahoma City did ok despite playing in a 14000 seat arena, they did manage to average 4000-5000 fans a game though.

Fort Wayne averaged 3500-5000 fans a game depending on the year they had. Poor Management lead to their down fall. but they had the fans.

Sioux Falls actually turned out to be the best of the 5-6 Expansion teams over the 90's. i am not trying to be a homer. but once the team got Local Ownership (1993-94), this team really took off. leading the league in attendance from 1995-2000, and a couple times in the 21st century. our ownership went out and spent the money to win games. we had the best talent in the league during all those years (1994-2000) thanks to some great coaches (Flip Saunders, Mo McHone, Paul Woolpert, Jim Sleeper). and Sioux Falls annually lead the league in Revenue and Ticket Sales. i beleive before Thomas screwed us over, Sioux Falls was up to 2800 season ticket sales, and averaging 5400 fans per game. plus, during those Glory years, we also had a very good deal with the ARENA. the one thing that hurt the Skyforce was the Sioux Falls Stampede (USHL). that kind of split the fans i believe. now we average about 2800-3200 fans per game while the hockey team gets about 3500 fans a game. so the vote is split now.

but that is why i beleive David Stern (NBA) was attracted to Sioux Falls, because of the local support and Local Ownership.

but to tell you the truth, i do miss the CBA and all the fun we had back then. i wish we could go back to how it was in the CBA.

from 1989-1998, the CBA was always eclipsing the 1,000,000 fan mark for the year. i beleive in 1994-95, we went over the 1,400,000 mark.

MZ

[USBasket_EricE]

From what I can remember, the F-M Beez folded after their first CBA season due to poor attendance. I believe the Fargodome holds close to 20,000 people and they maybe had 1000-2000 per game. I don't have the actual numbers, but it was somewhere in that range. Fargo is only 3 hours from Minneapolis too, so fans might have prefered to spend their money Timberwolves tickets. Hard to say. Wasn't there a team called the Fargo-Moorhead Fever at one time?

The Flint Fuze became the Great Lakes Storm of tiny town Birch Run after one season. I'm surprised they lasted for 3 seasons as the Storm with attendance averages of roughly 500. I remember a game that only attracted 150 fans.

And didn't the Grand Rapids Hoops fold because the owner had some kind of life-threatening illness?

[mzracing76]

yes, there was a Team that was the Fargo-Moorhead Fever...they moved to Fargo from Tulsa where they were known as the Tulsa Fast Breakers (1986-1991, and Tulsa Zone in 1991-92. then they became the Fargo-Moorhead Fever, then moved to Mexico City and became the Azteca's in 1994-95, later moving to San Diego the following season where they ceased operations.

The Fargo Dome holds 20,000 for football, they only used like 5000-6000 seats for Basketball. they inclosed one end with a curtain.


Yes and know about the GRand Rapids Hoops, they are still listed as a In-Active Franchise. so i dont know if they have folded or not. i do see where there is a Grand Rapids Team in another league, so they may have take some years off, and returned to a different league.

MZ

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

The Northwest Indiana CYO sends a large group (over 500 people) to a Steelheads game every year. What I DIDN'T know is that they also take pictures every year. I love photos:

http://www.nwicyo.org/special_events.htm

My cousin (actually my wife's cousin) was one of the Steelhearts dancers in a 2004 photo. Beer vendor wondering where I ran-off to in a 2006 photo. Good shots of the food court in some other photos. Mmmmmm, pizza!

I must admit. I miss the Genesis Center in the fall/winter months. Sigh.