Actual Attendence Needed To Break Even

[ABA06er]

As usual the regular morons on this forum just talk with out any basis for what they have to say. I e-mailed 5 owners and asked not for specifics of there pay expenses but for a estimate of how a small market team could make it and what they would have to pay for expenses for a whole year.

This was the best example I got,

Player Pay Roll - $43,200 = 12 players at $100 per game over 36 games

Liability Insurance + workers comp + disability = $8,500

Travel - $500 per game due to sponsorship deal x 18 games = $9,000

Hotel = FREE due to sponsorship

Head Coach - $ 150 per game = $5,400 Asst. Coach - $ 100 per game = $3,600.... total coaching expenses = $9,000

Game Operations = FREE COVERED BY VOLUNTEERS AND INTERNS

TOTAL EXPENSES = $69,700


50/50 gymansium ticket sales split at $15 per game ticket = $ 7.50 each split per ticket

517 x $15 = $7,755 X 18 games = $139,590 divided by 2 = $69,795

AVERAGE ATTENDENCE NEEDED TO BREAK EVEN IS 517 PEOPLE



so not any where close to 2,500 average attendence is REQUIRED to break even or every team will be over expensed as some "smart people" suggested , an actual owners estimate that is above proves that a team can make it in the ABA when only drawing 517 people per game which is far from 2,500

[psbf]

Maybe you should tell the Rochester paper, as that's where I read my info. From one of their articles.

[ABA06er]

Well all the Rochester paper knows is Rochester, hence why they are the "Rochester paper"

I am sure the Rochester RazorSharks need to sell a BOAT LOAD of tickets to break even due to the fact they have a maxed out payroll and play in a 11,000 seat arena that is utilized by a few other pro sports teams and holds concerts and just hosted a NBA exhbition game featuring the Cleveland Cavaliers, Going on that kind of overhead on an arena I would say you need to sell 2,500 seats or more but seeing as how 90% of the ABA plays in high school gyms and small college gyms and not ARENAS and feature mostly local players , I would adjust your figures from Rochester and look at the expenses that are carefully broken down up above.

[rams80]

Good thing your bare bones zero marketing organization only needs 517 to break even. With $15 tickets, I can't see you drawing that many fans as opposed to high school and other games.

Seriously-you need marketing to get even the 517 people interested in the game (and that will cost money) and I don't see such things as uniforms being mentioned either.

"If you build it, they will come" rarely works.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

ABA06er
Just wondering, do your estimates include:

per diem for players
meals for opponents
lodging expenses for players not from the immediate area
advertising
rent on a practice facility
uniforms
sweats
practice gear
the 3-D lights (required, but not supplied for free, by the league)
printing expenses for tickets, flyers, business cards, pocket schedules, media info, etc.
expenses for giveaways at games/events
costs for promotional gear (which can be sold, but need to be purchased first)
gameday items (water for both teams/referees, referee pay, towels, attendants/security staff, concession items - food, drink - etc.)
stat keeping system
rental fee on game venue
rental fee for team office space
travel expenses for multiple night road trips (every game isn't a one and done)

and so on...

When you say you emailed owners, do you mean to say that you are not affiliated with the league, but think the people who post here are 'morons' for their opinions? You are new here, but there are a lot of people with varying degrees of knowledge about the inner workings of a minor league franchise.

There is no magical 'break even' figure across the league as a whole. There are far too many variations market to market to set one figure.

And, your example of a $43,000 player payroll - barely 1/3 the cost of the cap - virtually ensures that the quality of player you attract may not be much to build a successful team on the court that your 517 people would want to see in the first place.

[ABA06er]

Home teams are responsible for hotels because they get them through sponsors and my estimates included a 50/50 split with the home venue , you listed to pay the home venue so I take it you just wrote without even looking over what I even wrote in the first place wich already destroys your credibility , the other expenses are out of pocket expenses not needed to be mentioned they are just to be taken for granted, nor do you have to pay for meals for away teams , but If I owned a team I would have a huge team dinner with the other team right in the venue like a buffet style just to be gracious hosts, I just wanted to see the actual costs and what you would need and 517 attendence is the average , in most regions I would agree that would be hard to pull off but in the North East Region just with the high talent coming in to your home arena would sell seats , I just wanted to see what it would take and owners who actually know what it takesand not just wanna be figure makers , gave me those numbers that suggest 2,500 is wayyyyy off for most ABA teams.

[rams80]

Marketing is an out of pocket expense?

[preeths]

ABA06er, are you intentionally being rude and insulting or are you just completely arrogant? Reading your posts in this thread, I think it's the former. If you are going to participate in these forums, learn how to argue without attacking. If I see you continue to call people "dumb" or "morons," you will be banned. We will not have one person lower the quality of conversation on these boards. Consider this your first and only warning.

Now, on to the subject at hand. I find it interesting how some are trying to minimize the costs of owning and operating a team. More interesting is the fact that they back up their argument by stating that many ABA teams don't pay X for certain line items. Yeah, we know. That's why so many ABA teams struggle to draw in the three figures and are virtual non-entities in their markets. What the opposite side is trying to figure out is the costs of operating an ABA team that at least has a remote chance of success, and thereby the break even attendance requirements, not the bare minimum you can scrape by on to start (and probably not finish) a season. Anyone can run up debt and avoid creditors for awhile. Creating a viable franchise takes a plan, and that's what we're trying to unearth. My bet is that a break even point of 517 is much further from the truth than 2500.

High athletic talent alone will not help sell seats. If you think it will, you're on the path to ruin already. Incidentally, if you think that decent talent comes cheap, you're off again. I suggest we all listen to someone like TEN, a guy who's done this before. He'd probably tell us that 45k is way too much to spend on a mascot costume, but that we're leaving out a boatload of other costs that creep up once you actually put a team on the court.

[ABA06er]

I agree I was a little rude , but far less rude then people are to Joe Newman the ABA CEO , why is it preeths that when a person defends the ABA you are quick to threaten to band them from this site? but when people make rude and disrespectful statements about individuals who support the ABA that was so much farther worse then calling some one "dumb" it is tolerated over and over and over , and not even given a response by you? I respect you preeths and I will make better judgments in my words from now on, but if your going to start banding people for "rude comments" then play both sides of the ball , that is all I ask.

[rams80]

Unfortunately "Uncle Joe" as we prefer to call him has done much more in the past to make him look like a con man than the businessman he purports to be. Hence our "rude" treatment of him.

At this point, and I say this to all ABA supporters, the league has not done anything to disprove our skepticism. We aren't being rude, we are basing our statements on what we have seen happen in the past.

[psbf]

ABA06, I'm not quire sure that I agree with that. I defend the competition of the league because it is exciting(I feel). I don't do any name calling, because I respect my fellow posters, regardless of their views which I may not agree with. I would hope they feel the same toward me, whether or not we share opinions. But I know there are others who do share it.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Home teams are responsible for hotels because they get them through sponsors
That is IF you can get a hotel to pick up the full expense. Teams without track records - in markets that have been burned by failed franchises in the past - may find that difficult to impossible.

and my estimates included a 50/50 split with the home venue , you listed to pay the home venue

So, in your plan, there would be no negotiated lease agreement with the venue? Rather you propose that you get the use of the venue - and ALL the other expenses that go with it - merely for the price of 50% of the game-day gate receipts? With no out of pocket up-front deposit made? Good luck with that...

so I take it you just wrote without even looking over what I even wrote in the first place wich already destroys your credibility

Oh, I have credibility. I worked as VP for an ABA team for a season, from start-up - through an ownership defection - to the end of the season. We paid every bill, every player, every creditor - on time. The new fish in this ocean doesn't need to tell the rest of us how to swim. We were here long before you - and a few minutes in the archives can enlighten you - and have seen every bump and pothole in the ABA road.

the other expenses are out of pocket expenses not needed to be mentioned they are just to be taken for granted

But, if you are giving us a financial seminar of the 'break even' money figure, then these expenses - which need to be paid - can't be 'taken for granted' can they? And if they are out of pocket - who's wearing the pants?

nor do you have to pay for meals for away teams
unless hey have changed the requirements (such as they are), actually, you do have to pay for some meal expense for visiting teams. Not all, but at least dinner.

but If I owned a team I would have a huge team dinner with the other team right in the venue like a buffet style just to be gracious hosts

A few flaws:
-It's hard to have a buffet meal when you play in a high school gym
-It's hard to have a buffet meal for free (find the restaurant that will pay for 18 'huge team dinners' for up to 30 people)
-a gracious host need only to provide the necessary items for their opponents (a good hotel, venue, game operations, food and transportation to and from the venue - or airport, if they flew). There is no need for a Walton's mountain feast.

I just wanted to see the actual costs and what you would need and 517 attendence is the average

Yes, if you add Rochester and their attendance to a bunch of teams that are getting 200 or much less, and divide accordingly, you can get a 517 average. It is a paper figure, and a lot of teams will kill to get 517 people for three games COMBINED.

There are still costs that haven't even been sniffed at in this discussion, much less taken for granted.

[Sam Hill]

I'm just curious why teams fold left and right in the ABA if all you need is 517 people per game to break even.

[TEN]

Thanks preeths for the kind words....

I don't have time to detail all of the little expenses that ABA06'r considers "out of pocket" expenses to be taken for granted (whatever the hell that means!)...

I have a feeling that his thoughts are the norm rather than the exception when it comes to owners in the ABA (based on the performance rate).

If a venue is giving you a "50/50 split," I assume that you must be playing in a church gym or rec hall because I can't imagine any decent facility working that kind of deal (unless you have a track record of bringing in enough fans night after night that it makes it worth their while)

I had a hotel give me free rooms for my team the first year (of course, the visiting teams were required to stay there and pay a slightly discounted rate)....after that honeymoon period, I had to pay for them (even though we won the title the first year and were the biggest thing to hit town, the hotel couldn't write off 10 to 15 rooms a night for three months)

Here's the deal....I ran a pretty tight ship and watched the costs...drew around 1500 to 1900 a night in a very small market (25,000 people)....budget was around 250 to 300 thousand dollars a year... Based on a longer season and more games, etc... I can't imagine an ABA team being run right for less than 350 to 400K

Run right means PAYING ALL BILLS...playing in a decent facility (2500 seats at least)...taking care of the players with a decent weekly paycheck and per diem on road trips....insurance...workers comp...PROMOTION...etc....

This has already gotten much longer than I wanted it to....ABARedWhiteBlue pretty much nails it......

One more thing...Why do we all hammer on Uncle Joe.....

BECAUSE SINCE 2000, THE ABA HAS BEEN RUINING MINOR LEAGUE BASKETBALL FOR THE REST OF US WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING DOING IT RIGHT! HE HAS RUINED NEW MARKETS (AND OLD ONES)...AND HAS PUT A BIGGER STAIN ON THE MINOR LEAGUE BASKETBALL WORLD THAN THE REST OF US COULD EVER DO.....WE ALL KNOW WHAT A SCAM IT IS....BUT THE MEDIA GIVES HIS TEAMS ATTENTION FOR A WHILE....I ALSO HAVE HEARD THE STORIES FROM PLAYERS THAT I HAVE HAD ON MY TEAMS ABOUT HOW THEY WERE SCREWED OUT OF THEIR MONEY WHEN THEY WENT TO A WORTHLESS ABA FREE AGENT CAMP!

A BIG REASON THAT THE USBL, IBL, WBA, CBA ETC. ARE STRUGGLING RIGHT NOW IS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL BEING LUMPED TOGETHER IN THE ALPHABET SOUP THAT IS MINOR LEAGUE BASKETBALL WITH THE ABA.

I'll take my caps off...I'm done yelling ;)

I feel much better!

[ABA06er]

Vermonts gym only holds 1,500 and they had 1,200 at the home opener according to Alex Wolf. So I guess that means Vermont can not be succesful and alex wolf doesent know anything because he didnt listin to you guys and do the " 2,500 attendence rule"

No see the point is with good managment and good planning 2,500 is a bloaded number that some one with no credibility made up. Vermont will around for a long time , even if when you double there max attendence it STILL DOESENT ADD UP TO 2,500 people!!!!

THANK YOU !

[TEN]

Is the Sports Illustrated publicity in his advertising budget?

We would all kill for that!

If I drew 1200 fans for my first home game after all of the media attention my team had generated with the help of Sports Illustrated....somebody had better take the sharp objects away from my line of sight....

And if his building only holds 1,500 fans...then he really has problems, because he has wasted all of this publicity because he can never draw more than 1,500 fans a night....

From what I read...It sounds like a lark to him....let's see what he thinks after the season...

Just for the record....what I considered a "successful" attendance number in the USBL was 1,500 paid...In the CBA or NBDL (with their bigger budgets) It would be closer to 2,500.

I'm assuming by looking at Vermont's roster....mostly local d2 guys...he isn't spending a lot of money on salaries....Let's see how long the great hoop fans in Vermont eat that up...

And the fact that Alex Woolf writes for Sports Illustrated does nothing to show what he knows about minor league pro basketball....from what I have read...He sounds a little naive...

[heavesrock]

[QUOTE=TEN;28439]Is the Sports Illustrated publicity in his advertising budget?

We would all kill for that!

If I drew 1200 fans for my first home game after all of the media attention my team had generated with the help of Sports Illustrated....somebody had better take the sharp objects away from my line of sight....

And if his building only holds 1,500 fans...then he really has problems, because he has wasted all of this publicity because he can never draw more than 1,500 fans a night....

From what I read...It sounds like a lark to him....let's see what he thinks after the season...

Just for the record....what I considered a "successful" attendance number in the USBL was 1,500 paid...In the CBA or NBDL (with their bigger budgets) It would be closer to 2,500.

I'm assuming by looking at Vermont's roster....mostly local d2 guys

QUOTE]


I don't think all team need 2,500 fans per game. I don't think many teams can last long on 517 fans. The figures needed are probably between 650-3,000 depending on the team. Vermont's building officially holds 1,650, but it would be EXTREMELY cramped. Alex Wolff has a brain. He wouldn't rent a 1,500 seat venue if he knew that he would need 2,500 fans per game. As for Vermont's roster, let's take a look at who is on it.

Melvin Creddle-Newark, NJ-Mount Olive's(NC)
Aaron Cook-Randallstown, MD-Hartford
Dana Martin-Stowe, VT-Skidmore
Tyrone BArley-Newark, NJ-St. Joe's
Kerry Lyons-Milton, VT-Lyndon St.
Travarus Bennett-Rosedale, MS-Minnesota
BJ Robertson-Burlington, VT-St. Michael's
Markus Austin-White Plains, NY-Eastern Michigan
Kevin Mickens-Baltimore, MD-George Mason
Jon Bryant-Woodbridge, VA-St. Joe's
Kevin Harrington-Beckley,WVA-SC-Spartanburg
Antonio Burks-Texarkana, AR-Steven F. Austin
Lester Strong-Denver, CO-Metro State
Tyrone Levett-Notasulga, AL-Alabama St.
Johan Collins-Raleigh, NC-Presbyterian(NC)
Issa Konare(hasn't played yet)-Dakar, Senegal-High Point(NC)

3 of 16 players are from Vermont. 8 players went to a D-1 school. The Heaves have a 2 year America East captain who is also the schools leader in threes made, 2 starters at St. Joe's, including their captain, a former Big 10 defensive player of the year, a George Mason grad, a 4 year starter at Eastern Mich. who scored over 1,400 points during that time, a player who shot 46% from 3 point range at Steven F. Austin, a 3 year scoring leader at Alabama St.

All local D-2 guys huh?

[ABA06er]

I think all Ten is trying to say is , Vermonts roster is made up of a roster with the exception of maybe one guy , no one has even heard of these other players and the reason being , I checked into all of them ... and they are all either D-1 d-2 bench players or d-3 players from small d-3 schools , and with the exception of one d-1 bench player all the other d-1 and d-2 player are deeeeeep bench players who people from thier own school wouldnt even know if they passed them in the hall way. And how long are pople going to want to see players like that ? Not very long!

I think that is what Ten was trying to explain.

[heavesrock]

Try looking a little closer. Do defensive players of the year sit on the bench? Do team captains sit on the bench? Do school leaders in threes and three-point percentage sit on the bench? Do 4 year starters sit on the bench?

Respond however you want but I am done with this board. There's no point in sitting around and joining in on you idiots eternal bickering about the ABA.

[sportsguy12]

This isn't the NBA. A crowd of 1,200 for the ABA is more than respectable. With the ABA's track record, why would you even consider securing a bigger venue. I would start out small then think big over time.

Is it economically feasible to secure a bigger (and more expensive in rent) venue then have the game cancelled because the other team didn't show up. Barre Auditorium looks like a great venue from the pics on the Frost Heave's website. They should play there 2-3 years and, then if attendance dictates it, move to a bigger place.

This is the ABA, not the NBA. Just keep that in mind.

[psbf]

Regardless of the negativity said about Alex Wolff by some, I think he is very knowledgable about what is going on. I agree that the nay-sayers are making too much of the ABA. The attendence of 1,200 is pretty darn good, when you consider many teams can't even attract that many.
I'm actually surprised that Arkansas only attracted 300, considering the Rimrockers well over that(up to 15,000), before they switched leagues. Which brings me to the league average. I also agree that 317 is too small of a number. Looking at the figures that are provided in some game summaries, I would have to say more like 1,000. My personal view of the ABA is that, despite Pgh. moving to a different league now, they started out here and that has put a new view on the sport for me. Vermont has never before had a pro franchise, that I know of. The attendence that they have drawn should be applauded, not critisized.

[rams80]

Vermont Lake Monsters nee Expos.

[psbf]

One thing I forgot to add, all this talk about the schools that the players come from and what level, what's the difference? If they are good is what matters. He could be a product of the smallest school in the country but if he converts on every shot, that's what counts.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Agreed...

The ABA should be targeting only smaller venues - the smaller arenas bring a more intimate setting, can create a home-court advantage, and if there are small crowds, they won't appear as lost in the building.

Is it better to have a 2000 seat or less arena, or to pay for a 18,000 seat venue, then draw on 60 or so paid fans?

There is no magical break even number for any of these teams. Teams need to work hard - and spend - to make an impact in their home market. Ray Kinsella's corn field ballpark strategy ("If you build it, they will come") doesn't exist in real life.

And what is with the Vemont bashing?? Wolff has given the league as a whole more publicity and national recognition in his columns than it received combined throughout its history to this point. ABA management philosophy has been a throw it against the wall and hope it sticks (or release a letter on its website hoping someone would see it and react). This year, the league fell into a few high profile individuals who are now affiliated with the league. Regardless of how those separate teams perform, their ongoing public presence can only help the league attract new fans.

Of course, if the league has the same issues that have plagued it in the past again this year - a plethora of canceled games, folding franchises and public email squabbles - that same public forum can turn people away in droves.

As for the skill level of the players - let the year play out. Who exactly should Vermont have signed, and why are they the ones who are ridiculed for the alleged weak roster they assembled (although the team seems to be very underestimated by those who rip it here - CTP, is that you??)? All teams shoud have assembled the best team possible. News flash - there are a lot of D-2 and D-3 guys throughout this league, and many of the D-1 guys here were not 'stars' on their teams.

Heavesrock is right - a lot of guys here can play the game. If they can play well enough, they will get a chance to move on to bigger money overseas. For some, this may be their career apex, and for others, their job at Wal-Mart will still be there after they are cut.

[sportsguy12]

Agreed...

The ABA should be targeting only smaller venues - the smaller arenas bring a more intimate setting, can create a home-court advantage, and if there are small crowds, they won't appear as lost in the building.

Is it better to have a 2000 seat or less arena, or to pay for a 18,000 seat venue, then draw on 60 or so paid fans?

There is no magical break even number for any of these teams. Teams need to work hard - and spend - to make an impact in their home market. Ray Kinsella's corn field ballpark strategy ("If you build it, they will come") doesn't exist in real life.

And what is with the Vemont bashing?? Wolff has given the league as a whole more publicity and national recognition in his columns than it received combined throughout its history to this point. ABA management philosophy has been a throw it against the wall and hope it sticks (or release a letter on its website hoping someone would see it and react). This year, the league fell into a few high profile individuals who are now affiliated with the league. Regardless of how those separate teams perform, their ongoing public presence can only help the league attract new fans.

Of course, if the league has the same issues that have plagued it in the past again this year - a plethora of canceled games, folding franchises and public email squabbles - that same public forum can turn people away in droves.

As for the skill level of the players - let the year play out. Who exactly should Vermont have signed, and why are they the ones who are ridiculed for the alleged weak roster they assembled (although the team seems to be very underestimated by those who rip it here - CTP, is that you??)? All teams shoud have assembled the best team possible. News flash - there are a lot of D-2 and D-3 guys throughout this league, and many of the D-1 guys here were not 'stars' on their teams.

Heavesrock is right - a lot of guys here can play the game. If they can play well enough, they will get a chance to move on to bigger money overseas. For some, this may be their career apex, and for others, their job at Wal-Mart will still be there after they are cut.

If teams show up and play. It's hard to truly analyze how well or poorly the ABA is doing because teams are at one end of the spectrum or the other. You have teams like Rochester and Vermont who draw well, then other teams like Mexicali and Baltimore who don't even make it through the year.

There are no professional standards here, set by the league. Owners don't decide 2 games in the season to fold up shop. If the league had followed all of the owners' progress, or lack thereof, these things wouldn't happen. No matter what size the arena is - and I don't think teams should be allowed to play in anything smaller than a college gym - it doesn't matter if teams don't even step out onto the court. This is the third year in a row that teams start falling left and right. When does this madness end?

[Sam Hill]

Here's the deal....I ran a pretty tight ship and watched the costs...drew around 1500 to 1900 a night in a very small market (25,000 people)....budget was around 250 to 300 thousand dollars a year... Based on a longer season and more games, etc... I can't imagine an ABA team being run right for less than 350 to 400K

Oh, what do you know?

You've only actually done this before! Since when does that matter? ;)

PS: Even at 400k, you'd still only need about 1,500 paid at $15 per ticket to make it work. Of course, you're not going to get 1,500 paid to see this stuff in 85% of the ABA's markets and you're not going to get $15 a ticket, not for this product in this league in most of its markets.

[gonzo13]

PS: Even at 400k, you'd still only need about 1,500 paid at $15 per ticket to make it work. Of course, you're not going to get 1,500 paid to see this stuff in 85% of the ABA's markets and you're not going to get $15 a ticket, not for this product in this league in most of its markets.[/QUOTE]

Is $15 the standard in the ABA? If so the proposed team in Rome for next season will never fly. For one, the WBA team we've had the last 3 years only charges $6 per game. And they play during the summer! A team in a small to mid-sized market will not be able to get away with the $15 admission fee. Maybe for courtside or something, but not across the board. Especially during "basketball season" For example: Rome, (and Floyd county) Ga. has 5 highschools and 2 colleges. None of which will charge more than 5 or 6 bucks to see a game ,if it's just a basketball game that you're looking for. So I think it's safe to say that Rome would be in the afore mentioned 85%.

Anyway, I said all that to say this. I'd love to have a team in Rome, but if I can't get a seat for more than about $7or 8, they won't be getting my money.

[psbf]

Has anyone conducted any surveys to find out what the public actually wants? It's a lot better than guess work.

[TEN]

Having an average ticket price of $15 is suicide....

My team....we had 2500 seats....

approx. 500 were $5

approx. 500 were $8

approx 750 were $10

approx 500 were $15

approx 250 were $25

and 16 were $50

Our average price was around $10....

we had around 1000 season tickets (probably 500 in the $10, 300 in the $15 and $25, 200 in the $5, and 12 in the $50)

We also had $125K in corporate cash...

...and pretty much broke even...

Here's my rub....

The ABA tells us how great it is and how it showcases the second best players in the world behind the NBA....Compares itself favorably to the USBL, CBA, NBDL, etc....However, admitting that the USBL is probably behind the CBA and NBDL talent-wise (maybe not this year with the CBA)...The Vermont Frost Heaves with the roster that they have would not finish in the upper half of the USBL...Take a look at the rosters of USBL teams like Dodge City, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska for example.... many major D-1 players....former guys with NBA experience...Some guys who made NBA rosters this year (I think I saw that Brian Chase got cut this weekend though)

I guess that I think that based on what the ABA thinks about themselves that they should have a higher caliber of play than the USBL....and they don't.....

Maybe you can make it on a 1000 fans a night if you are paying players 50 bucks a game....That's not the way I would want to run a "pro" basketball team though.

[preeths]

In this forum, any league commissioner or founder is a public figure and is open to criticism, even harsh criticism at times. If the criticism is unwarranted, people will get called on it. Posters here deserve to have their arguments address, not insults tossed their way, whether you agree or disagree with them

I agree I was a little rude , but far less rude then people are to Joe Newman the ABA CEO , why is it preeths that when a person defends the ABA you are quick to threaten to band them from this site? but when people make rude and disrespectful statements about individuals who support the ABA that was so much farther worse then calling some one "dumb" it is tolerated over and over and over , and not even given a response by you? I respect you preeths and I will make better judgments in my words from now on, but if your going to start banding people for "rude comments" then play both sides of the ball , that is all I ask.

[Fells]

Regardless of the negativity said about Alex Wolff by some, I think he is very knowledgable about what is going on. I agree that the nay-sayers are making too much of the ABA. The attendence of 1,200 is pretty darn good, when you consider many teams can't even attract that many.
I'm actually surprised that Arkansas only attracted 300, considering the Rimrockers well over that(up to 15,000), before they switched leagues. Which brings me to the league average. I also agree that 317 is too small of a number. Looking at the figures that are provided in some game summaries, I would have to say more like 1,000. My personal view of the ABA is that, despite Pgh. moving to a different league now, they started out here and that has put a new view on the sport for me. Vermont has never before had a pro franchise, that I know of. The attendence that they have drawn should be applauded, not critisized.

I don't understand the criticism of Alex Wolff as well. Alex is doing this the right way. He has chosen smaller, historic venues which have a better than average chance of selling out. He is maximizing his profits as sponsors see that he is filling the house instead of having 4,000 empty seats. Alex could have gone with a facililty like Saint Michael's College, but again, that may or may not have sold out on a regular basis.

Marketing wise, Alex has done a phenominal job. He has ads on TV and radio(Including on the stations I work for), and has gotten out into the community to publicize the team at countless events. Alex planned way ahead, and as a result, his team has received very positive press coverage in this area. The knock may be that Alex is a writer for SI and that is his only motivation for this team, but that is far from the truth. Alex is a Vermonter who lives south of Burlington and wants professional sports in his home state. You see, Alex is one of those who gets it; he is using environmentally friendly materials, recycled goods, and is giving back to this area. THAT is what this area is all about, and with his ties to this area, and understanding of the area, is why I believe the team will be a success.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

but far less rude then people are to Joe Newman the ABA CEO

Have you ever seen some of the insulting, condescending and flat-out rude stuff he has sent to others - often unprovoked?

As the face and voice of a league built upon 'family entertainment' - it's an embarrassment to every person associated with the league to have these comments made in public forums.

Does he get inflammatory emails sent to him? Yes. But, there is a delete key in his email program. Better to ignore those few than to carpet bomb everyone who disagrees with his ideas.

[Fells]

Have you ever seen some of the insulting, condescending and flat-out rude stuff he has sent to others - often unprovoked?

As the face and voice of a league built upon 'family entertainment' - it's an embarrassment to every person associated with the league to have these comments made in public forums.

Does he get inflammatory emails sent to him? Yes. But, there is a delete key in his email program. Better to ignore those few than to carpet bomb everyone who disagrees with his ideas.

I think he has a filter for my e-mails that zap them before he can see them.........

[TEN]

I hope that you don't take my post as criticism of Alex Woolf....

I think he is doing the best job he can possibly do in the ABA....He seems to have a clue about the marketing end of it....

My comment was more directed at "can he make a go of it drawing an average of 1000 fans paid?" Unless he is running it on a shoestring budget (or has a couple hundred thousand dollars in corporate cash) it might be tough to break even. Maybe he can afford to lose 50 to 100K...If he can...More power to him!

I DO think that he is a little naive about the minor league pro basketball game (based on what I read in SI)....But he'll learn a lot in year one!

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

I don't think it is a shoestring budget.

Teams can't depend only upon ticket revenue for operating capital. The problem with most teams is that they get very little from advertising and sponsorship revenue.

Wolff has a good business sense, and due to his contacts and aggressive marketing no doubt has advertisers giving cash as sponsors. Most new teams try to get sponsors to work on a barter system (free or reduced-rate hotel rooms, meals, trainers, equipment, supplies, etc.). The problem is that at some point, real cash is required. My guess is that Wolff has a cash flow separate from any ticket sales (even his logo shirts, hats, etc. are no doubt bringing in more than most teams can dream due to the national scope of his team in SI).

I doubt he is getting a bad deal from either venue for his games, so the game day operations budget is manageable - most likely well within ticket sales. His 'average attendance needed to break even' is probably far lower than most other teams. As a result, he is in a positive cash flow at a lower per-game figure. Add that to the money he is getting in marketing deals, and the size of the gym becomes a strong home-court advantage, rather than a financial drain.

[heavesrock]

Right you are, ABARedWhiteBlue. Vermont is doing some bartering(See the article he wrote called Souk and Ye Shall Find) but they've also got advertising that they are getting money from. Look at the video clip on www.wcax.com and you will see all the advertising. Then multiply that by two, because you have two arenas. Then factor in the ticket sales, which at the average of $10 a ticket, equals out so far to about $28,000. How many other teams can say that they had ticket revenue of $28,000 in 2 home games? Then factor in the radio deal. Then factor in the over $10,000 of profit the team has made off of merchandise sales(It may be more than that, I got that figure about 3 weeks ago). That's quite a bit of revenue don't you think?

[TEN]

Help me out heavesrock...The attendance for the first game was 1,200? What was the attendance for the second game?

If you are saying that they had 2800 fans (at 10 bucks a piece) to watch the first two game, that is 28,000 dollars... you cannot assume that they generated that much revenue....You are not accounting for comps...and the corporate cash would probably include season tickets in sponsorship packages that you can't account for as both ticket revenue and sponsorship revenue (it's one or the other).

For the ABA 28,000 bucks in ticket sales for two games would be great...I would doubt that Alex banked that much after the openers...Now let's assume they did do 14,000 dollars a night....18 home games? I think...that would be 252K. In the CBA (or even USBL adjusted to a 15 game home schedule) you would still need 100K of sponsor cash to break even....If you ran the franchise right and spent money on things that a lot of teams don't (but should....marketing...player salaries..perdiem...insurance...travel...equipment )..Also don't forget that "barter"sponsors probably get tickets as well (with no money changing hands).



Now assume that Alex actually banked money from 900 fans the first night and a similar percentage the second night and you'll see where I'm coming from....And can they draw those crowds the rest of the season...

Long story short.....

Knowing what it takes to run a good CBA or USBL franchise...I don't know how you can do it drawing under 1500 fans a night and make it work....Now the thing that I don't know is if they ARE trying to run it like a good CBA or USBL franchise...

We will know a lot of these answers by the end of the season...It's a feel good story now...what will it be if he's writing checks from his own account in March?

[psbf]

I'm also interested in what the turnout for the 2nd game was. Even though it was the debut in another Arena, usually the second game is not as good as that of the first.

[Fells]

I'm also interested in what the turnout for the 2nd game was. Even though it was the debut in another Arena, usually the second game is not as good as that of the first.

I believe it was around 1,200 over at Memorial Auditorium in Burlington. Quite a few people I know went and they said it was pretty full.

Memorial is another one of those short courts, and I imagine it got quite loud in there. When you walk into the arena, it feels like the fans would be right on top of you. One of the days I am not doing a game I need to go over there and check it out for myself.

[TEN]

Based on what heavesrock posted...I was assuming that the second game drew around 1400....I know the opener did 1200 and he said that at 10 dollars a ticket they would have brought in $28,000. which means that 2800 people attended the first two games...

A lot of times when eyeballing a crowd people tend to estimate higher than lower... Counting the ticket stubs and the money usually leads to a smaller result.

[psbf]

If the capacity of the venue is known, then the size of the crowd can tell a lot in estimating, I think. Otherwise, it should be easy to get the attendence figure by going down to the scorers table. They would have it along with the other game stats(for those at the game). It really kind of surprises me how many of the game stats that I read in this league don't include it.

[heavesrock]

I was told that the attendance was 1,300 for the first game and 1,500 for the second, by a Frost Heaves staff member. There was ONE comp ticket, the Governer. And they have quite a bit of sponsors, look the video and you will see this.

[Fells]

I was told that the attendance was 1,300 for the first game and 1,500 for the second, by a Frost Heaves staff member. There was ONE comp ticket, the Governer. And they have quite a bit of sponsors, look the video and you will see this.

Heaves, there were quite a few more comp tickets than that. I know the group of stations I work for received quite a few for both games. I don't know the number, but I know those who run ads, sponsors, etc did receive comp tickets. I hate to say it, but not all those in attendance were paid.

[psbf]

Video? I tried that link and all I saw were news articles. Maybe I did something wrong, but I did not see any video.

[TEN]

Now to be fair....tickets for sponsors would not be considered comp tickets assuming they have tickets built into their package...

They comped the governor...did he come alone? Did his companion have to buy a ticket?

Did the players and coaches not have a comp ticket list? Did their wives, girlfriends, kids have to buy tickets?

How about Alex Woolf's family? Did they pay?

How about the team doctor...I would bet that the "volunteers" who work for no pay (from what I hear everybody below the GM on an ABA team is a volunteer!) probably got tickets for themselves and member or two of their family. Visiting team is supposed to get two comp tickets per player and coach...There might have even been some ABA dignitaries there for the highest profile league team's first game...Did Joe Newman (or whoever might have been there) buy his?

It all adds up...

By the way...If Alex Woolf made his players buy tickets....the stories in SI won't be nearly as warm and fuzzy as they have been....And if a paycheck is late? Don't even go there!

From what I can tell....at an ABA game, it is not likely that you will find a statsheet....let alone an announced attendance. (not to mention the fact that the number is probably inflated)

[psbf]

I work as an independant writter and the media was given stat sheets at every game that I covered, complete with official league emblem. If the ABA does not use stat sheets, does that mean it's all unofficial?

[Fells]

I work as an independant writter and the media was given stat sheets at every game that I covered, complete with official league emblem. If the ABA does not use stat sheets, does that mean it's all unofficial?

I am a freelance writer, along with my radio duties, and any stat sheet I have ever been given has at least the name of the host school/team on the top. Now if it doesn't have either that, or a logo, it is a very good question.

[ABA06er]

Heavesrock is being ignorant and is Blinded by his love for his team. I dont blame him for that he is passionate for the Vermont team but as far as Ten goes I believe he has the right ideas on what ABA teams do, I dont think Alex Wolf will lose any money nor do I think vermont will fold but I agree that with all the nation wide coverage and all the articles in my sports illustrated magazine I have been reading for over a year now I am shocked that they are only playing in small gyms with shortned courts and seating for only a little over a thousand. There are a few ABA teams with hardly any coverage but the local newspaper who had 1,000 or more to the season opener , Alex Wolf and the Vermont FrostHeaves did not impress me at all infact I agree with Ten that with that kind of coverage it is down right dissapointing to see a little over 1,000 at a game when a quarter of the stands is prolly comp tickets.

[psbf]

We don't know how many tix were comp, but I would think that most were paid for by customers and that the comp tix were distributed to those who were associated with the execs.
This is not the NBA. I would hope an average turnout would be somewhere near what Rochester has, while needing more than 1,000, I think that figure is a good starting base. It's far better than a few hundred that most probably average.