Death watch 2006-07

[nksports]

To the ABA's credit, early season casualties haven't been as bad as last season (except for the number of announced teams that didn't get put on the schedule or got deferred to 2007-08).
But death and the ABA are somewhat redundant, and so here goes the death list for this season:
DEAD:
Mexicali
Baltimore
Undergoing CPR, but not likely to pull through:
Toledo
Looking pretty ill:
Anderson
Arkansas Aeros
Arkansas Rivercatz
Atlanta
Big Valley
Buffalo
Chicago
Detriot
Fresno
Gallup
Hammond
Houston
Jacksonville
King County
Knoxville
Las Vegas
Maryland
Maywood
Miami
Minnesota
Mississippi
Monterrey
Montreal
Newark
Orlando
Palm Beach
Peoria
Quad City
Quebec City
Richmond
San Diego
South Alabama
St. Louis
Tennessee
Texas
Tijuana
Twin City
Waco
Wilmington

[psbf]

A lot of those I've not seen their attendence figures, so I reserve judgement.
Buffalo and Jacksonville, I'd have to disagree because the Jam had 2,500 and the Silverbacks nearly filled their place(granted those were only for the openers). A few of the others had a couple hundred, but Wilmington is another that I'll have to disagree with, having 1,200 at their opener.
But I do agree about Toledo. Quebec City, the pictures they provided in their opener looked pretty healthy. Given that one (home)game does not make a season, I'd have to wait about a month before I make any decisions on opinion, aside from Toledo. 2,500 may not sound like a lot, but when you consider that some only draw 300 or less, it is significant, I think.

[rams80]

To the ABA's credit, early season casualties haven't been as bad as last season (except for the number of announced teams that didn't get put on the schedule or got deferred to 2007-08).
But death and the ABA are somewhat redundant, and so here goes the death list for this season:
DEAD:
Mexicali
Baltimore
Undergoing CPR, but not likely to pull through:
Toledo
Looking pretty ill:
Anderson
Arkansas Aeros
Arkansas Rivercatz
Atlanta
Big Valley
Buffalo
Chicago
Detriot
Fresno
Gallup
Hammond
Houston
Jacksonville
King County
Knoxville
Las Vegas
Maryland
Maywood
Miami
Minnesota
Mississippi
Monterrey
Montreal
Newark
Orlando
Palm Beach
Peoria
Quad City
Quebec City
Richmond
San Diego
South Alabama
St. Louis
Tennessee
Texas
Tijuana
Twin City
Waco
Wilmington

I was about to accuse you of just copying the franchise roster, until I saw you didn't have Rochester or Vermont.

[sportsguy12]

I was about to accuse you of just copying the franchise roster, until I saw you didn't have Rochester or Vermont.

The only reason Buffalo had a big crowd was:

Creditors Interchange salutes Mayor Byron Brown for bringing the WNY community together through the recent state of emergency. In appreciation of Mayor Brown's speedy resolution to the devastation in October, Creditors Interchange is buying all the tickets for the Buffalo Silverbacks home opener on Wednesday November 8th, 8pm at the Buffalo State Sports Area and donating them to the community.


Another inflated figure. Why is anyone surprised with the chaos in the ABA. It's been that way since it was reborn.

[psbf]

Buffalo fans were issued freebies by their local credit exchange, who purchased the seats for the occasion. I would not call those inflated numbers. Inflated is when a team adds empty seats to the attendence figures.

[nksports]

2,500 might break even for a team.

A team averaging 1,500 fans for 18 home games is going to make $405,000 for ticket sales (at an average of $15 a ticket).

If your players are making $200 a game, then you have a player payroll of $86,400. Let's assume a head coach is making $30,000 and an assistant is making $15,000.
If you are paying $2,000 a game in rent (assuming a small college or high school gym. a small arena will cost you between about $2,500 and $10,000 depending on size, setup, union labor and location, and more of those facilities are wanting at least a deposit, if not the full fee, up front), that's $36,000.

If you are paying your eight-team dance team $50 a night, that's another $7,200. You are also going to have to pay the leader around $2,000 to $3,000 a season. Another $1,000 to $5,000 a season for a mascot.

A charter bus costs roughly $3,000 a day depending on length of trip, for 18 road games, thats $54,000. (Renting a couple of vans might be a little cheaper). You have to rent hotel rooms for overnight trips (at $50 a room, that's about $12,600 for 18 overnights).

You also have to rent office space, hire a sales staff, hire a GM, hire a media relations person, hire at least one office assistant. You need to hire a bookeeper or contract those services. Same for ticket sales people. You need to hire a radio announcer. You also need game-day personnel. Expect to pay three pro refs about $250 each for a day's work. (that's $13,500).

You have to carry business liability insurance. You have to rent office space. You have to buy office equipment. You have to pay for phones and electricity. You have to pay printing costs, newspaper ads, radio and TV ads.

You have to hire a team physian and trainer or contract those services.

On the other side of the ledger income will include advertising and sponsorships from signage, radio and the programs. Some of that may be co-op (you may have to share sign sales with the building. Minor-league radio deals are often co-op with either the station or the team having to do the sales.) Some of the sponsorhips may be in trade. Merchandise sales, such as T-shirts, jackets, knick-knacks and replica uniforms.
You may get a cut of of concessions or parking (but more buildings are getting more reluctant to give that up).
And last, but certainly not least (not to the IRS at least) -- taxes.
It isn't unusual for any minor league (or major league) sports enterprise to end up with the income less than the expenses. This ain't for the faint of heart or those of us with less than a couple of million in the bank.

[nksports]

If you want to stay on your venue's good side, sell beer. That $4.50 to $6.00 beer joe fan buys costs the arena about .50 (not including cup or the beer seller). The more beer you sell, the more weekend dates your arena is willing to give you, the more cuts of sales they are willing to offer and the lower the rent they will charge when your contract comes up for renewal.

[Marshall Benjamin]

Point well taken you will make an excellent GM or Owner maybe you should be a consultant to these owners and teach them this simple method of running a organization because a lot of them do not get this concept it's so simple to figure out and they can't and that's why there failing at what there trying to accomplish and Joe Newman doesn't even care one bit, also one other thing why and the world is Artis Gilmore at the age of 57 even consider playing in the ABA? he's a ABA/NBA Legend instead he should choking Joe by the neck for messing up the ABA name and attaching his name to this mess, and then you have Tyrone Nesby UNLV grad playing also, come on What's going-on.

[psbf]

I agree. I don't think that all the owners have fully thought of what it takes to operate a team, with all those costs mentioned.
As far as beer, if a team decides to use a school as their home, they should check with the BOCES policies first. Some schools don't allow the use of alcohol on their grounds(I personally can enjoy a game without any). I know that alcohol is good sales, but there are also risks involved.

[bdaly]

2,500 might break even for a team.

A team averaging 1,500 fans for 18 home games is going to make $405,000 for ticket sales (at an average of $15 a ticket).

If your players are making $200 a game, then you have a player payroll of $86,400. Let's assume a head coach is making $30,000 and an assistant is making $15,000.
If you are paying $2,000 a game in rent (assuming a small college or high school gym. a small arena will cost you between about $2,500 and $10,000 depending on size, setup, union labor and location, and more of those facilities are wanting at least a deposit, if not the full fee, up front), that's $36,000.

If you are paying your eight-team dance team $50 a night, that's another $7,200. You are also going to have to pay the leader around $2,000 to $3,000 a season. Another $1,000 to $5,000 a season for a mascot.

A charter bus costs roughly $3,000 a day depending on length of trip, for 18 road games, thats $54,000. (Renting a couple of vans might be a little cheaper). You have to rent hotel rooms for overnight trips (at $50 a room, that's about $12,600 for 18 overnights).

You also have to rent office space, hire a sales staff, hire a GM, hire a media relations person, hire at least one office assistant. You need to hire a bookeeper or contract those services. Same for ticket sales people. You need to hire a radio announcer. You also need game-day personnel. Expect to pay three pro refs about $250 each for a day's work. (that's $13,500).

These numbers sound good for the upper tier organizations. But, a number of those costs can be cut. Many ABA teams certainly don't have player payrolls in that area. If I recall, the Buzz pays some nominal fee ($50 a game maybe). The head and assistant fees are probably ambitious for many teams too--not everyone is doing this full time (and, if they are, they run summer camps for additional income). Teams rarely pay their dance teams, even at high minor league levels. Overnight stays are certainly minimized in the ABA, and they're rare in successful regions. And, I guarantee you most ABA teams don't have a staff close to that size, and many of them are volunteers.

I acknowledge ABA regions have collapsed in the past forcing high travel costs (and a domino effect). But, I think it can be done in a strong region for a lower cost. Internships can be an amazing thing for a minor league team at any level. And, shared tasks under a title (the communications head doing radio) are common. And, of course, successful teams have sponsors that add revenue and they might even get a cut of concessions. I agree that teams don't always realize what goes into it. But, I think teams can be viable with a much lower attendance average than 2,500.

[TEN]

good hypothisis...however....

No ABA team is going to have an average ticket price of $15....and then get 1,500 paid.....Average ticket price in the ABA is probably 5 to 8 dollars from what I can tell...Then how many are freebees?

[Sam Hill]

And have we forgotten payroll taxes and workman's comp taxes?

Those will kill you with a minor league sports team.

[b-ball31]

2,500 might break even for a team.

A team averaging 1,500 fans for 18 home games is going to make $405,000 for ticket sales (at an average of $15 a ticket).

If your players are making $200 a game, then you have a player payroll of $86,400. Let's assume a head coach is making $30,000 and an assistant is making $15,000.
If you are paying $2,000 a game in rent (assuming a small college or high school gym. a small arena will cost you between about $2,500 and $10,000 depending on size, setup, union labor and location, and more of those facilities are wanting at least a deposit, if not the full fee, up front), that's $36,000.

If you are paying your eight-team dance team $50 a night, that's another $7,200. You are also going to have to pay the leader around $2,000 to $3,000 a season. Another $1,000 to $5,000 a season for a mascot.

A charter bus costs roughly $3,000 a day depending on length of trip, for 18 road games, thats $54,000. (Renting a couple of vans might be a little cheaper). You have to rent hotel rooms for overnight trips (at $50 a room, that's about $12,600 for 18 overnights).

You also have to rent office space, hire a sales staff, hire a GM, hire a media relations person, hire at least one office assistant. You need to hire a bookeeper or contract those services. Same for ticket sales people. You need to hire a radio announcer. You also need game-day personnel. Expect to pay three pro refs about $250 each for a day's work. (that's $13,500).

You have to carry business liability insurance. You have to rent office space. You have to buy office equipment. You have to pay for phones and electricity. You have to pay printing costs, newspaper ads, radio and TV ads.

You have to hire a team physian and trainer or contract those services.

On the other side of the ledger income will include advertising and sponsorships from signage, radio and the programs. Some of that may be co-op (you may have to share sign sales with the building. Minor-league radio deals are often co-op with either the station or the team having to do the sales.) Some of the sponsorhips may be in trade. Merchandise sales, such as T-shirts, jackets, knick-knacks and replica uniforms.
You may get a cut of of concessions or parking (but more buildings are getting more reluctant to give that up).
And last, but certainly not least (not to the IRS at least) -- taxes.
It isn't unusual for any minor league (or major league) sports enterprise to end up with the income less than the expenses. This ain't for the faint of heart or those of us with less than a couple of million in the bank.

I used the high end of all of your figures and came to $262,700. Seems a little better than breaking even at 1500 fans per game...and you actually said that 2500 fans per game might break even. Of course we didn't take into consideration some of the fees you suggested but didn't put dollar figures on. Also didn't ad anything for gameday personell, bookkeeper, office assistant, radio announcer, or GM (usually the owner), because those positions are filled by interns) Lets figure 20k on Liability, 5k on initial office equipment, 6k for office space for the year ($500 per month for a small office in DC is doable), $2400 for phones for the year ($200/month is more than enough I think), 18k on a trainer ($500 per game and most don't pay nearly this as a lot of the trainers are inexperienced and doing it more for the experience than the money) and 50k for for printing advertising etc (10k per month for 5 months). That is an additional $101,400 in expenses. This brings our total to $364,100 for the year. Still better than break even at 1500 fans per game and much better than break even for 2500 fans per game.

But some of the expenses you mentioned aren't nearly what you assess them to be. First, most teams player salaries don't exceed 60k (-$26,400). Second Assistants very rarely make any money (-15k). Dance team members certainly don't get paid (even many NFL cheerleaders don't get paid) (-$7,200). The mascot certainly doesn't get paid (-5k) Though charter busses are very expensive, the ABA has a lease deal for owners to lease a bus, that after selling advertising on it (bus wraps) more than pays for itself(-54k). Most games don't require overnight stay, but those that do are usually partially taken care of by a hotel sponser so we'll cut out 2/3 of what you propose, (-$8,400). That is a savings of $116,000!

That gives us $248,100 in expenses, compared to $405,000 in income from ticket sales alone based on 1500 per game. That is a Gross profit of $156,900. That isn't so bad. If a team averages 1500 fans per game you can guarantee they are bringing in other sources of revenue. Such as sponsors, merchandise, and concessions.

My point is you are exaggerating things a little bit, and not only should you not consult for teams with your $$ management skills (wasting money on things that you can get for free...ie interns, hotels, etc) you should consider thinking things through before even posting a blog.

I'm not saying anything close to "all ABA teams are near profitable". I'm pointing out that exaggerating to make your point makes you look less credible, and simply saying that when done right, if a team is averaging 1500 fans per game they would be more than profitable.

[b-ball31]

payroll taxes on 60k certainly won't kill you (20k max). Workman's comp wouldn't exceed 50k per season max.

[bectond]

payroll taxes on 60k certainly won't kill you (20k max). Workman's comp wouldn't exceed 50k per season max.

You forgot a lot of things that are needed:
Lodging for players from out of town
Per diem for meals on game day
Food for players from out of town
Disability Insurance
Arena staff (ticket takers, stat guys, scoreboard operator, shot clock operator, game clock operator, event security, event manager, equipment manager, ref's)
A video guy and video equipment
A mascot and a mascot custom
Dance team customs
Direct mailings
Upfront payment for all mercandise
copy rights
lawyer fees
account staffer
meet and greet event: (rental, entertainment, drinks, food)
Team photos
Uniforms
warm-ups
basketballs
first aid equipment
web site
web master
and I could go on for days.....

[b-ball31]

Didn't forget about most of those things.

Lodging for players from out of town--$0--if you hire someone from out of town for your company do you pay them a salary and then pay for their food and lodging--absolutely not--(I work in HR)Per diem for meals on game day --Good Point, though many teams tell the players up front that they are responsible for this. ($5400--$25/player per away game)
Food for players from out of town--again..wouldn't pay that normally ($0)
Disability Insurance--kind of lumped this in with Workman's comp insurance. see 50k for that above
Arena staff (ticket takers, stat guys, scoreboard operator, shot clock operator, game clock operator, event security, event manager, equipment manager, ref's)--All volunteer/interns accept security which is part of most facilities fee. ($0)
A video guy and video equipment--definitely a college intern ($0) this isn't the NBAA
mascot and a mascot custom--talked about mascot, but not costume..good point (5k--i think that would be plenty don't you?)
Dance team customs--though most of the teams require the dancer to pay for this for the experience/exposure oppty we can add it in. (2k)Direct mailings--accounted for--see advertising. Though I don't though that this would be the most cost effective way to advertise basketball.Upfront payment for all mercandise--good point though I don't know that an astute businessperson would buy all of their merch for the year up front before they get an idea of how much they will sell. (20k)
copy rights--minimal expense to copyright a logo that you have done. (2k)
lawyer fees--can vary (lets say 7k--and I think that is high)
account staffer--($0)--intern
meet and greet event: (rental, entertainment, drinks, food)--Is done at a sponsors venue--no cost to team.
Team photos--intern ($0)
Uniforms--good point (7k with warm-ups)
warm-ups--see above
basketballs--($0) supplied by league office
first aid equipment --($0) let's count that in the price of trainer.
web site--now supplied by league ($0)
web master--now supplied by league ($0)

You have managed to add 48k to the total. still leaving a lot of revenue. I can go on for days, and will say the same to you again. You really aren't practicing good money management skills.

[b-ball31]

you would be suprised what services will be provided to a sports team free of charge just for the oppty to put something like that on your resume.

[bectond]

Custom made mascot customes will cost about 45,000 alone.
Workers Compensation and disability insurance are not the same thing.
Workers Comp. does not cover a players total pay, Dib insurance covers the rest of his pay and covers him if his injury occured off the basketball court.
Liability insurance is also needed for the fans in attendence. (if rap music is played at half time the cost doubles)
The team will also have to pay for medical exams. No team would have an intern serve as the account executive. They are needed to make sure the right people get the correct tickets, they build relationships with community groups. I was attempting to prove to you that your assessment is unrealistic. A team will need to spend about $800,000 per year at the least in order to operate a pro team. Nobody can live off $200 a game without housing, your way off!!!!!!!! The team will have to put them up in a house or a hotel room. They would have to be given extra money for food. You can't run a team without paying any employees any money. What would insure that they show up for work? What ref would work for free? It takes time and money to put together programs, civic appearances, visits to hospitals etc.. and make sure that the media is there. To get businesses to give up $$$ you need the right people to make the connect not kids working for free or interns.
If you only put $300,000 into a team you will have 200 people show up at the game, you will be running a bush league operation.

[aba2004]

To put an end to these conversations, I work with a profitable ABA team and your figures are wrong, along with most of the stuff that is posted on these boards. It's not worth arguing and bickering over if you don't have access to the facts.

[Fells]

From its history, aren't "ABA" and "profitable" oxymorons? From the research I have done on the league, yours must be one of the few ABA teams that make a profit.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Lodging for players from out of town--$0--if you hire someone from out of town for your company do you pay them a salary and then pay for their food and lodging--absolutely not

Just a quick insert - when I was with the ABA in 04-05, the home team was required to pay for lodging for visiting teams for up to two nights, as well as at least 1-2 meals. Our team actually got stuck with a bill when a team - that requested to stay an extra night - skipped out on the hotel tab (the fact that their owner/coach is now in jail brings a smile).

While there is the possibility that you can secure rooms for free from a hotel sponsor (we actually had one give us reduced rates) and some free meals - usually for your own team rather than the opponents - one thing you quickly learn is that if you try to get by on the cheap, you come out looking cheap.

You have to spend money to create an image, atmosphere and a strong organization. If you act like a coupon-clipping team, it will catch up with you.

[preeths]

To put an end to these conversations, I work with a profitable ABA team and your figures are wrong, along with most of the stuff that is posted on these boards. It's not worth arguing and bickering over if you don't have access to the facts.

Then how about filling us in on the facts. A "you're wrong" post doesn't do anyone any good.

[rams80]

To put an end to these conversations, I work with a profitable ABA team and your figures are wrong, along with most of the stuff that is posted on these boards. It's not worth arguing and bickering over if you don't have access to the facts.

We have more dead franchises in this league in 3 years than most minor leagues could have in 30. I believe that that alone indicates that something is fundamentally wrong with this league.

[nksports]

ABA2004 might be someone with Uncle Joe afraid we might be scaring a potential owner with the facts. (The facts may obscure the effects of the bong at the ABA offices.)
A lot of the figures I came up with, I either know or have a pretty good idea about for what the services would cost in this area (for example, we've had area teams negotiate leases with the area arenas. Since the arenas are publically owned, those numbers have come out. The Kansas Coliseum, a 9,000-seat arena, costs roughly $7,200 a night before add on fees like security. The local indoor football team paid the local ice arena about $3,000. An area college had to charter buses for football games this season and someone I know with the college told me what they charged, around $3,000. If you want to rent a van, you can call Hertz or the lease officer at the local auto dealership.) Some are educated guesses. Hotels, you can go on the net and find out pretty easily how much a room costs.) Some, like insurance, I didn't know and didn't hazard a guess, but I know the costs are there.
I realize not every team is going to pay the same for every cost. Some probably don't carry -- say business liability insurance -- but then the owner risks getting sued for a team's liabilities and they can go after his personal assets (especially if you don't structure your team properly). Some don't carry workman's comp or disability insurance and the player is SOL if he gets injured (I've known some pro soccer players from the late days of the NPSL who had to carry their own).
I also realize some teams only pay players about $50 a game (some teams were paying $0), but when you look at a lot of minor-league sports (indoor football included), player payroll is usually a fraction of overall expenses. Some teams pay a player a per-week or per-month salary.
Who ever is responsible for providing overnight lodging or meals, it has to be paid for and budgeted. I don't know what the ABA teams do, but some minor-league sports teams give a housing allowance (hockey is good about that), but sometimes that's more than the players' actual pay.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

And as for:

Though charter busses are very expensive, the ABA has a lease deal for owners to lease a bus, that after selling advertising on it (bus wraps) more than pays for itself(-54k).

that was also floated about as a money-making alternative; however, you need to actually find someone willing to pay to advertise on the bus - as far as I know, at least that season, there were no teams who had one.

They may have had a bus, but they weren't wrapped in ads, and they weren't free - nothing from the league is - so someone had to pay for it. Most teams use the biggest rides their players own, or rent a van or two to travel.

[Sam Hill]

To put an end to these conversations, I work with a profitable ABA team and your figures are wrong, along with most of the stuff that is posted on these boards. It's not worth arguing and bickering over if you don't have access to the facts.

(cough cough) bull**** (cough cough)

[b-ball31]

Custom made mascot customes will cost about 45,000 alone.
Workers Compensation and disability insurance are not the same thing.
Workers Comp. does not cover a players total pay, Dib insurance covers the rest of his pay and covers him if his injury occured off the basketball court.
Liability insurance is also needed for the fans in attendence. (if rap music is played at half time the cost doubles)
The team will also have to pay for medical exams. No team would have an intern serve as the account executive. They are needed to make sure the right people get the correct tickets, they build relationships with community groups. I was attempting to prove to you that your assessment is unrealistic. A team will need to spend about $800,000 per year at the least in order to operate a pro team. Nobody can live off $200 a game without housing, your way off!!!!!!!! The team will have to put them up in a house or a hotel room. They would have to be given extra money for food. You can't run a team without paying any employees any money. What would insure that they show up for work? What ref would work for free? It takes time and money to put together programs, civic appearances, visits to hospitals etc.. and make sure that the media is there. To get businesses to give up $$$ you need the right people to make the connect not kids working for free or interns.
If you only put $300,000 into a team you will have 200 people show up at the game, you will be running a bush league operation.

Again your $$ management skills are horrible. I am not proposing that you do things on the cheap. Just that you are wise with your money. No mascot costume will cost 45k you are way off.

Secondly, thank you for the lesson on Workman's comp/disability, though none was needed. I didn't say they were the same thing, I said that I accounted for both (lumped it in) with the 50k I budgeted for Workman's Comp. (again I work in Recruiting/HR and know these costs)

Next, actually most teams have many interns serve as account executives, or pay their account executives commission. To say that interns aren't extremely well qualified and professional people to sell tickets is crazy. To sell promotions, those people are paid on Commission, and are only paid if they get a sponsor. In fact Rochester's biggest sponsor was signed by one of their players (from Detroit) who also works as an Account Executive.I interview well over 100 college intern candidates per year, and many are very intelligent, articulate, well-groomed professionals. These people show up for work to get experience, attain a reference, and to enjoy what they do.

Next, you say that I am "way off!!!" on not paying players food/housing stipends. Actually i'm right on target. First, many players are local for most teams. Second many if not all players have jobs outside of basketball as they have realistic expectations of what they need to do to chase their dream of playing pro-basketball, and don't expect to come in and make 30-40k to play ball right away. It takes a lot of hard work.

Next, you asked what ref would work for free. Didn't say they did, we counted that cost in your first post.

Next, you state that it takes a lot of work, time, and money to put together programs, civic apperances, etc. Good Point. But what do you think the 2-3 person ownership group is doing all of this time?

Saying that it takes 800k to run a successful operation in incorrect. I'm sorry, it just is. I'm not sure that you have ever run a business before or possibly have a business degree, but a company that does not maximize every operational dollar will go out of business inside three years. Their are several ABA teams that are profitable and draw somewhere between 2,000-3,000 fans per game and put on a great show that doesn't seem bushleague. This isn't the NBA, and you don't have to spend close to a million dollars to put on a good show.

I have owned, and currently own several businesses, and unless you have some a tremendous amount of knowledge about each team's financials then i'm sure i know more about this than you do.

[b-ball31]

And as for:



that was also floated about as a money-making alternative; however, you need to actually find someone willing to pay to advertise on the bus - as far as I know, at least that season, there were no teams who had one.

They may have had a bus, but they weren't wrapped in ads, and they weren't free - nothing from the league is - so someone had to pay for it. Most teams use the biggest rides their players own, or rent a van or two to travel.

The ABA has a bus leasing deal this season for owners, and is not just floated. It is a viable option. It isn't very hard to get a couple sponsors to cover less than 2k per month. This advertising is a lot easier to sell as it doesn't just reach the attendance at the game, but is driven throughout town to numerous events, etc. and reaches much of the general population.

You're right nothing from the league is free. Websites are provided now (they will go up next week) the ABA's new site is up now. These things are part of the market reservation fee.

[b-ball31]

ABA2004 might be someone with Uncle Joe afraid we might be scaring a potential owner with the facts. (The facts may obscure the effects of the bong at the ABA offices.)
A lot of the figures I came up with, I either know or have a pretty good idea about for what the services would cost in this area (for example, we've had area teams negotiate leases with the area arenas. Since the arenas are publically owned, those numbers have come out. The Kansas Coliseum, a 9,000-seat arena, costs roughly $7,200 a night before add on fees like security. The local indoor football team paid the local ice arena about $3,000. An area college had to charter buses for football games this season and someone I know with the college told me what they charged, around $3,000. If you want to rent a van, you can call Hertz or the lease officer at the local auto dealership.) Some are educated guesses. Hotels, you can go on the net and find out pretty easily how much a room costs.) Some, like insurance, I didn't know and didn't hazard a guess, but I know the costs are there.
I realize not every team is going to pay the same for every cost. Some probably don't carry -- say business liability insurance -- but then the owner risks getting sued for a team's liabilities and they can go after his personal assets (especially if you don't structure your team properly). Some don't carry workman's comp or disability insurance and the player is SOL if he gets injured (I've known some pro soccer players from the late days of the NPSL who had to carry their own).
I also realize some teams only pay players about $50 a game (some teams were paying $0), but when you look at a lot of minor-league sports (indoor football included), player payroll is usually a fraction of overall expenses. Some teams pay a player a per-week or per-month salary.
Who ever is responsible for providing overnight lodging or meals, it has to be paid for and budgeted. I don't know what the ABA teams do, but some minor-league sports teams give a housing allowance (hockey is good about that), but sometimes that's more than the players' actual pay.

First, you are guessing at too many things. Most teams aren't playing in an arena that seats 9000 people. Maybe two or three. So they are not spending anywhere near 8k per game.

You're right on chartering busses. But that is only done by those who are bad with money management. Very simple. You can spend 3k per away game (18 games) for a total of 54k, or you can spend 2k per month to lease a bus for a total of 24k. Which would you choose? And hotels I already discussed, but want to mention that your method of figuring costs for that is flawed and shows absolutely no money management skills. If a team does not have a hotel sponsor and has to pay for the 7 rooms for 18 away games, they certainly aren't paying full price. That's the beauty of buying in quantity.

Lastly, all teams are required by the league (they don't have it they don't start the season) to have disability and workman's comp. and most if not all are set up as LLCs, hence do not put at risk their personal assets.

There is no doubt that someone like yourself could purchase a market reservation in the ABA and spend 800k for one year of operation, but you would most certainly fail with such wreckless spending and poor allocation of funds as so many have in the ABA. Your style of thinking is exactly what has caused so many ABA teams to go under.

[Sam Hill]

Lastly, all teams are required by the league (they don't have it they don't start the season) to have disability and workman's comp. and most if not all are set up as LLCs, hence do not put at risk their personal assets.

ABA teams are "required" (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) to have a lot of things. Do they all, though?

Did Montreal have it for the guy who got punched in the face last season?

[b-ball31]

We have more dead franchises in this league in 3 years than most minor leagues could have in 30. I believe that that alone indicates that something is fundamentally wrong with this league.

All minor league organizations have this problem. It isn't by any means exclusive to the ABA. You should do some fact finding before you make such grand statements.

The ABA has had 40 defunct teams in it's history. plus 12 that have gone to other leagues. They currently have 50 teams.

The D League has had 8 defunct teams in it's history including 3 of the 5 leauge champions. And they are supported by the mighty NBA

The CBA has had 89 defunct teams in it's history, and currently has 8 teams.

The USBL has had 44 defunct teams in it's history, and currently has 9 teams.

The IBL has had 13 defunct teams in it's history, and the league went belly up before making a comeback.

AHL has had 77 defunct teams in it's history

ECHL has had 37 defunct teams in it's history

CHL has had 19 defunct teams in it's history

What I'm trying to point out is that all Minor league sports organizations have a lot of defunct teams and go through a lot of tumultuous years in the beginning of their existance. This includes the mighty AHL, CBA, and others. Most of the teams that go belly up in those leagues is in the first ten years of existance. Give the ABA some time. Of course they are going to lose teams....all minor leagues do, but they aren't doing any worse than any other minor league organization. In fact most of the leagues mentioned above lost more than 3 times as many teams as they currently have. The ABA is currently at only -2.

[bectond]

Again your $$ management skills are horrible. I am not proposing that you do things on the cheap. Just that you are wise with your money. No mascot costume will cost 45k you are way off.

.

Mascot design steps.

1-if your smart you would hire someone to conduct a focus group to determine what your fans would like most in a mascot. This cost money
2-You would get multiple artist to draw multiple costume designs.This cost money
3-You would make teedy bear sized replicas (1st) to take back to the focus group, for them to select the best one. (you don't dictate to your customer if your smart)
4-You have to pay people to run the focus group, these people must know what they are doing. This cost money
5-You have to copy right the name, all the designs and final costume. You have to pay a lawyer to do this.
6-You have to pay a designer to select the correct polyester or fleece materials used to cover the costumes surface. This cost money
7-You have to pay someone to manufacture 2-4 costumes.
8-You have to pay someone to ship the costumes to you.

If you are running a good organization you have to do things right, and to do things right you have to spend money to make money. You can't get investors to come out to your meet and greet without providing food and drinks.(as you suggested in a prior post) No one is going to pay for their own food as you mistakenly think they will. The earlier you find out what the fans want the earlier you will get fans to come out. (You must find ways of asking fans what they want, this cost money!!!) You can't decide important things without getting any information from your fan base first. It may seem like a waste of money to you but understanding your customer is very important because if they want A and you are giving them B your SOL. You made another dumb comment about spending $50,000 to advertise. If your only spending $50,000 you should just skip advertising all together. $50,000 in ads and some cold-calling is not going to get your product out there. Nobody will answer your freaking cold-calls. And thats not going to get you the sponsors you will need as the backbone to your organization. You get sponsors via food, drinks, connections and being a good sales men. You, knocked direct-mailings also.
If you know which homes to market to (Because you did research before buying a team!!!, which cost money) then direct mailings are the best way to get information out to your customer base. Window ad's are ok, but the smart money is always on establishing a target market. Only a copmlete jack -azz goes after everybody these days. You select a target group and work hard to get their business.

[rams80]

All minor league organizations have this problem. It isn't by any means exclusive to the ABA. You should do some fact finding before you make such grand statements.

The ABA has had 40 defunct teams in it's history. plus 12 that have gone to other leagues. They currently have 50 teams.

The D League has had 8 defunct teams in it's history including 3 of the 5 leauge champions. And they are supported by the mighty NBA

The CBA has had 89 defunct teams in it's history, and currently has 8 teams.

The USBL has had 44 defunct teams in it's history, and currently has 9 teams.

The IBL has had 13 defunct teams in it's history, and the league went belly up before making a comeback.

AHL has had 77 defunct teams in it's history

ECHL has had 37 defunct teams in it's history

CHL has had 19 defunct teams in it's history

What I'm trying to point out is that all Minor league sports organizations have a lot of defunct teams and go through a lot of tumultuous years in the beginning of their existance. This includes the mighty AHL, CBA, and others. Most of the teams that go belly up in those leagues is in the first ten years of existance. Give the ABA some time. Of course they are going to lose teams....all minor leagues do, but they aren't doing any worse than any other minor league organization. In fact most of the leagues mentioned above lost more than 3 times as many teams as they currently have. The ABA is currently at only -2.

Yes, but you will notice that almost every league you brought up is much, much older than the ABA; so the franchise kill numbers are a little off there IMO. I'm too lazy to dig up the numbers, but I think some of those ECHL franchise deaths you are counting may be moves. WPHL (doing business as the CHL) has been around since the 90s, AHL is 70 years old, CBA is more than 50 years old (going off your franchise kill numbers), and the ECHL and USBL are more than 20 years old.

The ABA has a 1 out of 2 kill ratio going thus far (may get closer to 1 out 1.5 as the season progresses (who knows)). Given the ABA's current rate of batsh!t expansion, if you give it the time some of these leagues have had, I'm prepared to state that the ABA will have had a team and failed in every urban area of the United States with a population of greater than 50,000. No matter how you look at it, that's not how you run a business.

[b-ball31]

Mascot design steps.

1-if your smart you would hire someone to conduct a focus group to determine what your fans would like most in a mascot. This cost money
2-You would get multiple artist to draw multiple costume designs.This cost money
3-You would make teedy bear sized replicas (1st) to take back to the focus group, for them to select the best one. (you don't dictate to your customer if your smart)
4-You have to pay people to run the focus group, these people must know what they are doing. This cost money
5-You have to copy right the name, all the designs and final costume. You have to pay a lawyer to do this.
6-You have to pay a designer to select the correct polyester or fleece materials used to cover the costumes surface. This cost money
7-You have to pay someone to manufacture 2-4 costumes.
8-You have to pay someone to ship the costumes to you.

If you are running a good organization you have to do things right, and to do things right you have to spend money to make money. You can't get investors to come out to your meet and greet without providing food and drinks.(as you suggested in a prior post) No one is going to pay for their own food as you mistakenly think they will. The earlier you find out what the fans want the earlier you will get fans to come out. (You must find ways of asking fans what they want, this cost money!!!) You can't decide important things without getting any information from your fan base first. It may seem like a waste of money to you but understanding your customer is very important because if they want A and you are giving them B your SOL. You made another dumb comment about spending $50,000 to advertise. If your only spending $50,000 you should just skip advertising all together. $50,000 in ads and some cold-calling is not going to get your product out there. Nobody will answer your freaking cold-calls. And thats not going to get you the sponsors you will need as the backbone to your organization. You get sponsors via food, drinks, connections and being a good sales men. You, knocked direct-mailings also.
If you know which homes to market to (Because you did research before buying a team!!!, which cost money) then direct mailings are the best way to get information out to your customer base. Window ad's are ok, but the smart money is always on establishing a target market. Only a copmlete jack -azz goes after everybody these days. You select a target group and work hard to get their business.


You're trumping up numbers to help your argument and it makes your argument seem less credible. You also misquote me, which shows you have little attention to detail.

Speak to some owners about their maskots and learn something before making statements. You are just trying to come up with as many steps and expenses as you can to make your point. You don't hire a focus group to figure out what your mascot will be. You use something that makes sense with your team name and the area. Simple market research can tell you about the area. You tend to want to pay for things you can do yourself. Next you don't make little teddy bears. These days you have several companies that make costumes submit bids of what you are looking for with a computer graphic/animation of what it will look like. Then you added steps of someone picking the correct fleece/polyester etc. give me a break!!! This is all part of the original estimate. You do need to copyright the name and costume, but a patent attorney doesn't involve nearly the cost you assume.

The misquote you have is that I said investors will pay for their own food and drinks at meet and greets. I never said that. I said that a sponsor. Probably the one that hosts your post game report (if a team is smart enough to do that) will host such gatherings at a much reduced cost.

You also stated that I made a dumb comment by saying that a team should spend 10k per month on advertising. I can tell you that this is plenty. A lot of advertising has to be done by word of mouth, press releases, and media coverage. A lot more is done in trade. You definitely don't need to spend (and none of the ABA teams do spend) 100k in advertising. Teams do a lot of grass roots marketing, they get on radio shows, have game ticket drawings to get emails, put up flyers, market to area colleges (which is really easy, very low cost, and hits a ton of people in the target market), get articles in the paper, etc. Then they supplement that with radio/Tv ads, and sometimes a billboard. A smart business man gets more free advertising than he pays for.


Next you make assumption that I would go after everyone. Again you're wrong. Of course you establish a target market, but it doesn't take a genius to do that, nor does it cost money. To establish a target market you get your demographics for your city (free), then make phone calls to others ABA/CBA/NBA teams speak to their marketing people and find out what the make up of their audience is (most, not all will give you this info no problem if you are savy), and in a snap your target marketing is established. You're statement that direct mailings are the best way to get information to your customer is also wrong. This actually is a horrible way to market to them. People very rarely read direct marketing these days, and they don't even know that the DM piece would be of interest to them unless they open it...and most don't. You have to do market research (yourself) and see how you're identified target market responds to different types of marketing, and then use the one that best suits them. I can guarantee you DM isn't it.

I don't insult your intelligence or call you names (see dumb comment/jack azz), and would prefer if you afforded me the same courtesy. I think we can disagree like gentlemen, and put forth our ideas and thoughts in a thoughtful, and constructive way.

Nice debating with you.

[b-ball31]

Yes, but you will notice that almost every league you brought up is much, much older than the ABA; so the franchise kill numbers are a little off there IMO. I'm too lazy to dig up the numbers, but I think some of those ECHL franchise deaths you are counting may be moves. WPHL (doing business as the CHL) has been around since the 90s, AHL is 70 years old, CBA is more than 50 years old (going off your franchise kill numbers), and the ECHL and USBL are more than 20 years old.

The ABA has a 1 out of 2 kill ratio going thus far (may get closer to 1 out 1.5 as the season progresses (who knows)). Given the ABA's current rate of batsh!t expansion, if you give it the time some of these leagues have had, I'm prepared to state that the ABA will have had a team and failed in every urban area of the United States with a population of greater than 50,000. No matter how you look at it, that's not how you run a business.

Please read my original post again and see that I stated that most of the defunct teams went under in the early years of the leagues existance. take that into consideration when talking about the CBA being 50 years old, and the AHL being 70. Most of the teams they lost were earlier in their life cycle.

You stated that the ABA as a 1 out of 2 kill ratio. The CBA has lost 11 of every 12 teams started in the league. that is a 11 out of 12 kill ration as you would state it.

You really can't argue with the logic I'm presenting here. The ABA hasn't lost nearly as many as most of these leaues in comparison to the number of teams it has. I took into account the age of the teams. Most lost significantly less per year in their later years after they were established. I would bet that the ABA will have a similar history when this is looked back on in 20 years.

[Chuck the Writer]

All minor league organizations have this problem. It isn't by any means exclusive to the ABA. You should do some fact finding before you make such grand statements.

The ABA has had 40 defunct teams in it's history. plus 12 that have gone to other leagues. They currently have 50 teams.

The CBA has had 89 defunct teams in it's history, and currently has 8 teams.


In fact most of the leagues mentioned above lost more than 3 times as many teams as they currently have. The ABA is currently at only -2.


Your use of the CBA's teams as a comparison to the ABA, including those CBA franchises that may have "failed" or "moved on", as part of your argument, is inaccurate and faulty. You're compaing the CBA, which has been around for 60+ years, with the current version of the ABA, which, even if you count the 2000-2002 ABA2000, only existed for five or six years. I also get the sense that you're counting franchise shifts - whether from one city to the other, or from one LEAGUE to the other, as a "failure." This is inaccurate.

First off, the CBA has not had a team fold in mid-season since 1995-96, when the San Diego Wildcards did not complete their maiden season. How many ABA franchises have folded in mid-season since the ABA's reintroduction in 2003?

So for the sake of argument, here is a list of all CBA/Eastern League teams (going back to the 1946-47 season) and their success rate and length of service. For the sake of argument, if a team leaves after 10 years and returns, I will only count the total seasons under that franchise name, not the years in which the team was dormant. I will also count as a single entity those teams who changed their names due to sponsorship or new ownership. Those do not count as "failed franchises," as they were able to resume play in the same city, albeit under a new name.

FRANCHISES THAT LASTED LESS THAN ONE SEASON (includes folded and relocated franchises) (9 EPBL + 3 EBA + 7 CBA = 19)

EPBL:
Binghamton Triplets (1946-1947) (relocated in midseason)
Bridgeport Flyers (1967-1968) (moved in midseason)
Springfield Hall of Famers (1968-1969) (folded in midseason)
Rochester Colonels (1958-1959) (folded in midseason)
Allentown Keys (1948-1949) (moved in midseason)
Ashland Greens (1951-1952) (moved in midseason)
Pottsville Bolognas (1953-1954) (moved in midseason)
Wilkes-Barre Aces (1952-1953) (folded in midseason)
Trenton Capitols (1955-1956) (folded in midseason)

EBA:
Connecticut Gold Coast Stars (1975-1976) (folded in midseason)
Cherry Hill Demons (1971-1972) (relocated in midseason)
Hamburg Bullets (1972-1973) (moved in midseason)

CBA:
Bakersfield Jammers (1991-1992) (folded in midseason)
San Diego Wildcards (1995-1996) (folded in midseason)
Jacksonville Jets (1986-1987) (relocated in midseason)
Baltimore Metros (1978-1979) (relocated in midseason)
Las Vegas Silvers (1982-1983) (relocated in midseason)
Mohawk Valley Thunderbirds (1978-1979) (folded in midseason)
Harrisburg Hammerheads (1994-1995) (folded in midseason)

FRANCHISES THAT LASTED ONE SEASON (5 EPBL + 10 EBA + 21 CBA = 36)

EPBL:
Wilmington Jets (1957-1958)
Allentown Rockets (1946-1947)
Harlem Yankees (1955-1956)
Johnstown CJ's (1965-1966)
Philadelphia Lumberjacks (1947-1948)

EBA:
Washington Metros (1977-1978)
Quincy Chiefs (1977-1978)
Garden State Colonials (1972-1973)
East Orange Colonials (1973-1974)
Trenton Capitols (1975-1976)
Brooklyn Dodgers (1977-1978)
Long Island Sounds (1975-1976)
Long Island Ducks (1977-1978)
Hazleton Bits (1971-1972)
Providence Shooting Stars (1977-1978)

CBA:
Birmingham Bandits (1991-1992)
Santa Barbara Islanders (1989-1990)
Hawaii Volcanos (1979-1980)
Shreveport Crawdads (1994-1995)
Shreveport Storm (1995-1996)
Maine Windjammers (1985-1986)
Baltimore Lightning (1985-1986)
Flint Fuze (2001-2002)
Fargo-Moorhead Beez (2001-2002)
Kansas City Sizzlers (1985-1986)
Reno Bighorns (1982-1983)
Atlantic City Hi Rollers (1980-1981)
Wildwood Hi Rollers (1981-1982)
Utica Olympics (1979-1980)
Fargo-Moorhead Beez (2001-2002)
Philadelphia Kings (1980-1981)
Pittsburgh Piranhas (1993-1994)
Pennsylvania Barons (1979-1980)
Scranton Aces (1980-1981)
Saskatchewan Hawks (2001-2002)
Mexico Aztecs (1994-1995)


FRANCHISES THAT LASTED TWO TO FIVE SEASONS (or longer than any franchise in the current ABA lineup) (12 EPBL + 6 EBA + 40 CBA = 58)

EPBL:

New Haven Elms (1965-1967, 1968-1969)
Baltimore Bullets (1958-1961)
Asbury Park Boardwalkers (1966-1968)
Binghamton Flyers (1968-1971)
Berwick Carbuilders (1949-1951, 1952-1954)
Harrisburg Senators (1947-1951)
Harrisburg Caps (1950-1951, 1952-1953)
Harrisburg Patriots (1965-1967)
Hazleton Mountaineers (1946-1948, 1951-1952)
Lancaster Rockets (1948-1951)
Lebanon Seltzers (1952-1954)
York Victory (1948-1952) (50-51 as York Pros, 51-52 as York Cleaners)

EBA:
Hamden Bics (1969-1971)
Jersey Shore Bullets (1976-1979)
Cherry Hill Rookies (1973-1975)
Hamilton Pat Pavers (1972-1974)
Trenton Pat Pavers (1970-1972)
Hazleton Bullets (1972-1976)

CBA:
San Jose Jammers (1989-1991)
Anchorage Northern Knights (1977-1982)
Hartford Hellcats (1993-1995)
Sarasota Stingers (1984-1987) (86-87 season as Florida Suncoast Stingers)
Tampa Bay Thrillers (1984-1987) (relocated before 1987 playoffs)
Florida Beachdogs (1995-1997)
Savannah Spirits (1986-1988)
Chicago Rockers (1994-1996)
Evansville Thunder (1984-1986)
Cedar Rapids Silver Bullets (1988-1991)
Topeka Sizzlers (1986-1990)
Louisville Catbirds (1984-1986)
Bay State Bombardiers (1983-1986)
Great Lakes Storm (2002-2005)
Detroit Spirits (1982-1986)
Grand Rapids Mackers (1994-1996)
Michigan Mayhem (2004-2006)
Fargo-Moorhead Fever (1991-1993)
Rochester Flyers (1987-1989)
Rochester Renegades (1992-1994)
Mississippi Jets (1986-1988)
Billings Volcanos (1980-1982)
Montana Golden Nuggets (1980-1983)
Albuquerque Silvers (1982-1985)
Rochester Zeniths (1978-1983)
Dakota Wizards (2001-2006)
Fargo-Moorhead Fever (1991-1993)
Cincinnati Slammers (1984-1986)
Columbus Horizon (1989-1994)
Ohio Mixers (1982-1984)
Oklahoma City Cavalry (1990-1997)
Tulsa Fast Breakers / Tulsa Zone (1989-1992)
Lancaster Lightning (1981-1985)
Puerto Rico Coquis (1983-1985)
Charleston Gunners (1986-1989)
Tri-City Chinook (1991-1995)
LaCrosse Bobcats (1997-2001)
Wisconsin Flyers (1982-1987)
Alberta Dusters (1980-1982)
Toronto Tornados (1983-1986)


FRANCHISES THAT LASTED SIX TO TEN SEASONS (9 EPBL + 1 EBA + 11 CBA = 21)

EPBL:
Hartford Capitols (1966-1973, 1976-1977)
Wilmington Blue Bombers (1963-1971) (70-71 season as Delaware Blue Bombers)
Camden Bullets (1961-1966, 1970-1971)
Easton-Phillipsburg Madisons (1956-1962)
Trenton Colonials (1961-1969)
Hazleton Hawks (1953-1962)
Pottsville Packers (1946-1952)
Reading Keys (1946-1952, 1957-1958) (49-51 as Reading Rangers, 51-52 as Reading Merchants)

EBA:
Scranton Apollos (1970-1977)

CBA:
Connecticut Pride (1995-2001)
Pensacola Tornados (1985-1991) (two different franchises with same name; Tornados "1" from 85-86; Tornados "2" from 86-91)
Idaho Stampede (1999-2006)
Fort Wayne Fury (1992-2001)
Gary Steelheads (2000-2006)
Maine Lumberjacks (1978-1983)
Omaha Racers (1989-1996)
Rapid City Thrillers (1987-1995)
Wichita Falls Texans (1988-1994)
LaCrosse Catbirds (1985-1994)
Wyoming Wildcatters (1982-1988)

FRANCHISES THAT LASTED ELEVEN OR MORE SEASONS (6 EPBL/EBA + 6 CBA = 12)

EPBL/EBA:

Allentown Jets (1958-1981) (79-81 as Lehigh Valley Jets)
Lancaster Red Roses (1946-1949, 1951-1955, 1975-1980)
Scranton Miners (1954-1970)
Sunbury Mercuries (1947-1971)
Wilkes-Barre Barons (1946-1947, 1954-1974, 1975-1979)
Williamsport Billies (1947-1964)

CBA:
Quad City Thunder (1987-2001)
Rockford Lightning (1986-2006)
Grand Rapids Hoops (1989-1994, 1996-2003)
Albany Patroons (1982-1993, 2005-present) (92-93 season as Capital Region Pontiacs)
Sioux Falls Skyforce (1989-2006)
Yakima / Yakama Sun Kings (1990-2001, 2003-present)

So in the end, you only have 19 CBA franchises in the league's 61+year history to have folded or relocated without completing their maiden season - and none of which occurred in the last ten years. 19. Not 89. j

And, in fact, 91 different CBA/Eastern League franchises have lasted as long - or longer - than the current ABA lineup.

QED.

[b-ball31]

How can you think what you have just done is fair? You not only are not comparing things fairly, but also help to prove my point in your post.

We were talking about which teams completed their maiden. we were talking about how many were defunct. apples to apples. If they moved mid year to a new city, or changed names then it was defunct. I counted it the same way in the ABA.

You helped make my point by pointing out that by your numbers 118 teams have lasted 5 or less years before becoming defunct. By my numbers I had only 89 total. You also point out that the CBA no longer has the problem of teams folding like before. That is the point I was trying to make. That once established for many years a league will have much less turnover, while early in the life cycle it will be much higher.

Thanks for the help! Though I don't think you meant to.

[psbf]

Um, I have to correct you, Chuck. The Pittsburgh Piranhas were from 94-95 not 93-94. I know, I attended their games and I still have their program.

[rams80]

Please read my original post again and see that I stated that most of the defunct teams went under in the early years of the leagues existance. take that into consideration when talking about the CBA being 50 years old, and the AHL being 70. Most of the teams they lost were earlier in their life cycle.

You stated that the ABA as a 1 out of 2 kill ratio. The CBA has lost 11 of every 12 teams started in the league. that is a 11 out of 12 kill ration as you would state it.

You really can't argue with the logic I'm presenting here. The ABA hasn't lost nearly as many as most of these leaues in comparison to the number of teams it has. I took into account the age of the teams. Most lost significantly less per year in their later years after they were established. I would bet that the ABA will have a similar history when this is looked back on in 20 years.

Uncle Joe is that you?

Logic?! Logic?! (develops weird twitch in right eye). The reason the ABA is even treading water at this point is because of their flippin' throw the teams against the walls and see what sticks expansion policy. Teams are still pulling out midseason, going belly up in what should be alarming numbers to most sane individuals. You add 40 teams without any real vetting process, and then when you have twenty left you call it a success?! What kind of batsh!t insane logic is this?

I can only pray for the day when the Feds kick down the doors of the league offices, arrest the leadership, and shut down the league.

[aba2004]

Although it's amusing me that you are arguing over nonsense when you don't have access the the numbers, I will provide you with some of the figures that you are bickering over for the profitable ABA team that I'm associated with.

2,500 seat Arena - $1,200 per game
Hotel - Free from sponsor
Bus - $500 per game part of ABA bus deal
Player/Coaches Salaries - $225-$650 per game
Custom Mascot- $3,000

The list goes on, but I don't hvae the time nor do I want to disclose other information to people who bash the ABA.

[rams80]

Although it's amusing me that you are arguing over nonsense when you don't have access the the numbers, I will provide you with some of the figures that you are bickering over for the profitable ABA team that I'm associated with.

2,500 seat Arena - $1,200 per game
Hotel - Free from sponsor
Bus - $500 per game part of ABA bus deal
Player/Coaches Salaries - $225-$650 per game
Custom Mascot- $3,000

The list goes on, but I don't hvae the time nor do I want to disclose other information to people who bash the ABA.

So...how much do you pull in a night?

Oh come now, tell us this "profitable ABA team". There's only, at the most, 5 methinks.

[bectond]

You're trumping up numbers to help your argument and it makes your argument seem less credible.

No i'm not trumping up numbers, most franchises do research before they but a team (outside of the ABA) to determine if they have enough demand to support a franchise in an area. Then they have to develop a brand name and get sponsors which takes about 18 months. Then they play the games, the whole process takes about 24 months. You don't understand the process, a smart team will get fans together then get their help in deciding the name of the team. I used the term focus group, however the team will get not use that term when they get the fans together(they will call it a name the team party or something like that, they will supply food and drinks and fans will supply ideas). The team will 1st get ideas for a name then have designs for the fans to look at for the final meeting. You don't get one designer to come up with logo and mascot ideas, you get several and pick the one you like best you copyright all of them even if you only use one. If you custom design a costume, then you are more involved.



Speak to some owners about their maskots and learn something before making statements. You are just trying to come up with as many steps and expenses as you can to make your point. You don't hire a focus group to figure out what your mascot will be. You use something that makes sense with your team name and the area. Simple market research can tell you about the area. You tend to want to pay for things you can do yourself. Next you don't make little teddy bears. These days you have several companies that make costumes submit bids of what you are looking for with a computer graphic/animation of what it will look like. Then you added steps of someone picking the correct fleece/polyester etc. give me a break!!! This is all part of the original estimate. You do need to copyright the name and costume, but a patent attorney doesn't involve nearly the cost you assume.
ABA owners are not the best people to ask for advice, they are fools that rush in, I doubt if any do research before buying a team, if they did most would have never fall for such a bad scheme. The teddy bears are used as a small scale representation of what the full scale model will look like. Most companys would rather be able to make adjustments to the smaller model first before production, this is an added step that is widely used in business. An owner could decide picking fleece or polyester without help, however some people are looking for very detailing work, they want the mascots eyes to look a certain way or they want the mascot to look hip or trendy. If you get four designers to make your designs how much do you think it will cost?
Then how much do you think it will cost to copyright all four? I'm not making this stuff up go check out web sites for graphic designers and ask a lawyer how much the copyrights will cost. Then check a web page for costume manufacting firms and see how much they charge for custom made costumes as opposed to off the rack ones.

The misquote you have is that I said investors will pay for their own food and drinks at meet and greets. I never said that. I said that a sponsor. Probably the one that hosts your post game report (if a team is smart enough to do that) will host such gatherings at a much reduced cost..
I did not misquote you . You stated that the cost for a meet and greet would be $0. These fuctions are designed to get sponsors, these events should occur long before the season begins. Someone may be willing to allow an owner to use their location without paying rent, but someone will have to cover the bill for food, drinks and entertainment.

You also stated that I made a dumb comment by saying that a team should spend 10k per month on advertising. I can tell you that this is plenty. A lot of advertising has to be done by word of mouth, press releases, and media coverage. A lot more is done in trade. You definitely don't need to spend (and none of the ABA teams do spend) 100k in advertising. Teams do a lot of grass roots marketing, they get on radio shows, have game ticket drawings to get emails, put up flyers, market to area colleges (which is really easy, very low cost, and hits a ton of people in the target market), get articles in the paper, etc. Then they supplement that with radio/Tv ads, and sometimes a billboard. A smart business man gets more free advertising than he pays for...
I believe that spending $50,000 on advertising is a waste of money. If a team is only going to spend $50,000 in the 18 months prior to the season opening game. They are not going to make it. The brand name will be unknown to the target market. I'd use free advertising before I would underspend on advertising. Plus, I DO feel it's dumb as hell to only advertise for 5 months on a start-up sports franchise. I'm not knocking you i'm knocking your view. Why would a college support a pro team marketing on their campus, when they need butts in the seats of the college game. Why would a college student pay to see a rush job ABA franchise when the are paying atheletic dues for the college team. Articles in the paper are not cheap forms of advertising nor are radio or T.V. ads. Smart business men get to know the right people, they do that by hosting events and providing information at those events.


Next you make assumption that I would go after everyone. Again you're wrong. Of course you establish a target market, but it doesn't take a genius to do that, nor does it cost money. To establish a target market you get your demographics for your city (free), then make phone calls to others ABA/CBA/NBA teams speak to their marketing people and find out what the make up of their audience is (most, not all will give you this info no problem if you are savy), and in a snap your target marketing is established. You're statement that direct mailings are the best way to get information to your customer is also wrong. This actually is a horrible way to market to them. People very rarely read direct marketing these days, and they don't even know that the DM piece would be of interest to them unless they open it...and most don't. You have to do market research (yourself) and see how you're identified target market responds to different types of marketing, and then use the one that best suits them. I can guarantee you DM isn't it.

You are wrong, if a basketball fan receives information that is presented well regarding a new basketball team in the area that is holding a meet and greet for fans and he or she will receive free food and drinks, I believe many will attend. In fact, history shows that they will attend if the presentation is first class. But you would have to spend money to find who your target market is and your idea (checking city demographics makes no sense) A top notch marketing firm would be able to assist you, or placing lead cards in sneaker stores is another idea. The city is good for selling group tickets or agreeing to buy a certain amount of tickets but thats it. You would not put the money in so your presentation would suck but that does not mean direct mailing your TARGET GROUP is a bad idea.


I don't insult your intelligence or call you names (see dumb comment/jack azz), and would prefer if you afforded me the same courtesy. I think we can disagree like gentlemen, and put forth our ideas and thoughts in a thoughtful, and constructive way.

Nice debating with you.

I was not insulting you, I was insulting dumbazz people that don't market to a target group. People that buy teams without putting any thought into how they are adversly effecting pro basketball. They destroy markets because they do not do their homework. They believe they can run a team on $120,000. They think they don't have to hire qualified people to work for them. Since you don't own a team i'm not refering to you.

[Chuck the Writer]

How can you think what you have just done is fair? You not only are not comparing things fairly, but also help to prove my point in your post.

That's where you're wrong. You were making the argument that in terms of team ratios of franchises leaving to franchises arriving, that the CBA was worse off than the ABA. In the 61+ year history of the CBA, only 19 franchises failed to finish their first season in the city in which they started. IN the ABA, 19 franchises failing to finish the season is a weekly occurrence.

We were talking about which teams completed their maiden. we were talking about how many were defunct. apples to apples. If they moved mid year to a new city, or changed names then it was defunct. I counted it the same way in the ABA.

That's why your definition of "defunct" is incorrect. Because a team changes its name, yet retains its original ownership, that doesn't make the franchise defunct. If a franchise decides to "regionalize" its name, that doesn't make that franchise defunct. And if a team moves to another league, that doesn't make the franchise itself defunct. Are you telling me that Sioux Falls and Dakota and Idaho are defunct franchises, just because they moved to the D-League?

You helped make my point by pointing out that by your numbers 118 teams have lasted 5 or less years before becoming defunct. By my numbers I had only 89 total. You also point out that the CBA no longer has the problem of teams folding like before. That is the point I was trying to make. That once established for many years a league will have much less turnover, while early in the life cycle it will be much higher.

Except that with the ABA's scorched-earth policy of adding franchises all over the place and then watching as only a few survive to the end of the season, is not how the CBA operated in any year. The CBA never added 25 franchises and hoped that 5 would stick. The CBA never outgrew its borders like the ABA did. There aren't more than a handful of ABA franchises that are even in their third season of operation. By the numbers I quoted to you, there are over 100 CBA franchises that have existed for 3 years or longer.

Besides, if you really wanted to get into franchise histories, several of the teams that you listed as "defunct" because they only played a season would still count as long-lasting franchises. From 1975 to 2006, the Lancaster Red Roses-to-Philadelphia Kings-to-Lancaster Lightning-to-Baltimore Lightning-to-Rockford Lightning is one continous franchise that lasted 30 years.

Thanks for the help! Though I don't think you meant to.

You need all the help you can get, barkley. Besides, if you really DO work for a profitable ABA franchise, your team will be in the CBA before too long.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

All minor league organizations have this problem. It isn't by any means exclusive to the ABA. You should do some fact finding before you make such grand statements.

The ABA has had 40 defunct teams in it's history. plus 12 that have gone to other leagues. They currently have 50 teams...

The ABA is currently at only -2.

A quick correction on your math. Using your argument that a defunct team = any team no longer in existence or unable to complete their first season...

There have been at least 105 ANNOUNCED franchises in the ABA since its inception in 2000 that meet that criteria:

Alexandria United
Anaheim Roadrunners
Arizona Rhinos
Arkansas RimRockers
Arkansas Scorpions
Atlanta Mustangs
Baltimore Pearls
Bellevue Blackhawks
Birmingham Magicians
Boston Frenzy
Buffalo Rapids
Calgary Drillers
California Buzz
California Eagles
Carolina Thunder
Carson Buzz
Central Valley Dawgs
Charlotte Krunk
Chattanooga Steamers
Chicago Rockets
Chicago Soldiers
Chicago Skyliners
Cincinnati Blaze
Cincinnati Monarchs
Cleveland Rockers
Colorado Springs Storm
Columbia Rottweilers
Detroit Dogs
Detroit Wheels
Florida Pit Bulls
Gallup Talons
Gwinnett Gwizzlies
Georgia Reigning Knights
Harlem Revs
Harle, Strong Dogs
Hawaii Mega Force
Hermosilio Seris
Indiana Legends
Indiana Alley Cats
Inglewood Cobras
Houston Havoc
Jacksonville Jackals
Jacksonville Wave
Jersey Squires
Juarez Gallos
Kansas City Knights
Kentucky Colonels
Kentucky Pro-Cats
Lake Charles Hurricanes
Las Vegas Rattlers
Las Vegas Slam
Lincoln Thunder
Long Beach Jam
Long Beach Laguneros
Los Angeles Aftershock
Los Angeles Stars
Maywood Laguneros
Memphis Houn’ Dogs
Miami Pit Bulls
Minneapolis Slamma Jammas
Minot City Freeze
Mississippi Stingers
Motown Jammers
Nashville Rhythm
Native America
New Jersey Jaguars
New Jersey SkyCats
New Mexico Style
Niagara Daredevils
Norfolk Navigators
North Carolina Renegades
NE PA Breakers
Ohio Aviators
Oklahoma City Ballhawgs
Ontario Warriors
Orlando Orange Men
Orange County Crush
Pennsylvania Pitbulls
Pensacola Aviators
Phoenix Eclipse
Philadelphia Fusion
Philadelphia Squires
Pittsburgh Hardhats
Pittsburgh Xplosion
Portland Reign
Reno Rockers
Richmond Generals
St. Louis Flight
St. Louis Rotweilers
Salt Lake Dream
San Antonio Stallions
San Diego Wildfire
San Francisco Pilots
San Jose SkyRockets
SoCal Legends
Southern Caliornia Surf
Tacoma Navigators
Tampa Bay Thunder Dawgs
Tampa Bay Tornados
Tijuana Diablos
Trenton Squires
Twin City Ballers
Utah Snowbears
Valley Legends
Visalia Dawgs

This list is off the top of my head, and from records I have of the league. I may be missing a few. What they all have in common is that none of them is on the current list of active teams this season.

Again, there are probably a few I am missing - and I can pull up the names of others somewhere in my files. Still, the bigger issue is that, including this year's teams in the list (which brings the total to approximately 155 teams) there is only one active team that pre-dates 2004-2005, the Fresno Heatwave (althoough I believe they are on their 3rd ownership group). Of the 105 ABA-extinct teams, over 80 have come and gone since the end of the 2003 season.

Assuming that this season's complete list of teams completes the season (unlikely), the failure rate for ABA franchises is in the area of 67%. Using a favorite CEO analogy - if McDonald's shut down 2 of every 3 new locations it opened in a 3 year period, would they still be successful? Maybe, if a new management group came in to find out why the failure rate was so high and eliminated the people responsible for it. As for building consumer confidence - well, it's hard to keep a loyal following when the customer comes by for breakfast, only to discover later that the store shut down, changed hands or changed names before lunch.

[psbf]

If I remember, the Pittsburgh Hardhats were never actually a team. The Pa. Pitbulls took over for them at the last minute. They spent one year here, before heading South.

[Fells]

Although it's amusing me that you are arguing over nonsense when you don't have access the the numbers, I will provide you with some of the figures that you are bickering over for the profitable ABA team that I'm associated with.

2,500 seat Arena - $1,200 per game
Hotel - Free from sponsor
Bus - $500 per game part of ABA bus deal
Player/Coaches Salaries - $225-$650 per game
Custom Mascot- $3,000

The list goes on, but I don't hvae the time nor do I want to disclose other information to people who bash the ABA.

I have the numbers from some current and former owners, so I have some of the facts. If you are afraid of us bashing the ABA, then wake up. What professional sports league doesn't get bashed? Major League baseball has problems with steroids and Bud Selig; the NBA for its style of play and individualism, and the list goes on. If you think the ABA is immune to criticism, then you really do need to take more happy drugs.

As I have said in previous posts, I would love to see this league succeed. I enjoy the style of play, I love the emphasis on defense, and I love the track meet pace of many of the games. I, along with many others, have seen how this league is run and just don't like it. So many players don't get paid, sponsors left in the dark, and fans who have been alienated. With proper management of the league, it could be a success.

Rapid expansion is NOT the way to go. Let the strong survive and thrive, and if the reputation of the league increases because of the style of play, affordability, and ABA players making it to the next level, that will then attract a stronger and more credible brand of owner and in turn, the league grows.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

If I remember, the Pittsburgh Hardhats were never actually a team. The Pa. Pitbulls took over for them at the last minute. They spent one year here, before heading South.
I include them - and others in similar situations - because their sudden change in ownership/location after being announced as a franchise follows ABA2004's criteria for defunct franchises.

Also - the ABA seems to be a leader in teams that make flashy announcements and is praised for the high quality of their owneship groups and business models; yet they never actually appear in a game. That is almost as bad as those teams that fold during year one; it's obvious that the right questions regarding finances and qualification of these groups are not being asked (or ignored); even this season, the league keeps saying that it will remove teams if they can't meet requirements. A noble and smart move, but.......

wouldn't that have made sense about 3-4 months ago??? Even earlier would make more sense. I've said it numerous times - if you don't have a venue (sort of important to the success of actually playing a home game, don't you think???) you don't have a franchise. If you don't have financial statements to verify your net worth and available capital, you don't have a franchise. If you don't have signed agreements for any variety of basic components necessary to compete, you don't have a franchise.

A check for $20K payable to the kitchen-based league office, as well as a logo designed by a cousin/nephew/art student does not a franchise make.

The league will throw out an ownership group for not having a dance team in place, but overlook fundamental shortcomings like venue/money/website/etc.

[sportsguy12]

The NIFL has been around longer than the "new" ABA and hasn't had this many franchises disappear off the hardwoods. The ABA simply announces disappears that never materialize.

There's no discussion ... the history is right there.

Although I will say that five of the teams on the big list got smart and took their balls elsewhere to play:

Charlotte (now Atlanta) Krunk and Florida Pit Bulls left for CBA, if they ever play.
Pittsburgh Xplosion and San Jose (moved to Minot) Skyrockets now in CBA.
And Arkansas Rimrockers left for NBDL.

So those teams are still kicking.

[psbf]

Yes, ABA, I agree. I like the action that I saw when the Xplosion were in the ABA. But I don't like that the league offers no future for the teams, which is why I(and other fans here) am glad we are now in the CBA, even though it has fewer teams. The Xplosion are doing things that the Pitbulls never did, which is why they are becoming successfull.
As far as business, it is neccessary to organize and keep track of spending, which I've learned. Spending wisely is very important also.

[TEN]

You can talk all about different teams in different leagues coming and going all that you want....

I have always been very big on the importance of playing a full, legitimate schedule....Keeps season ticket holders from being screwed....makes the standings in the morning paper (if they are in there) legitimate...etc...

With that said...The ABA DOESN"T play more scheduled games each week than the other leagues miss combined...over multiple years!

Hottest selling t-shirt at a ABA game....

"I'm With Stupid....He Bought a Season Ticket!"

[nksports]

To the ABA's credit, early season casualties haven't been as bad as last season (except for the number of announced teams that didn't get put on the schedule or got deferred to 2007-08).
But death and the ABA are somewhat redundant, and so here goes the death list for this season:
DEAD:
Mexicali
Baltimore
Undergoing CPR, but not likely to pull through:
Toledo
Looking pretty ill:
Anderson
Arkansas Aeros
Arkansas Rivercatz
Atlanta
Big Valley
Buffalo
Chicago
Detriot
Fresno
Gallup
Hammond
Houston
Jacksonville
King County
Knoxville
Las Vegas
Maryland
Maywood
Miami
Minnesota
Mississippi
Monterrey
Montreal
Newark
Orlando
Palm Beach
Peoria
Quad City
Quebec City
Richmond
San Diego
South Alabama
St. Louis
Tennessee
Texas
Tijuana
Twin City
Waco
Wilmington

Add Richmond and Hammond to the CPR list

[Dan K]

To ABARedWhiteBlue's list of 105 announced ABA franchises, prior to the decision to cancel the 2002-03 ABA season, the league had announced the Pittsburgh Patriots, eventually renamed the Pittsburgh Golden Flames. When the league started up again in 2003-04, this team was not around. I don't know if this fits your criteria.

Also, in the very early days of the ABA, the league had named a Long Island franchise the New York Express. There was also the Hampton Roads Titans team that was originally planned for Austin, but became the San Diego Wildfire due to arena problems. I found an article from the Yakima Herald-Republic (7/20/01) that mentions a group behind an ABA franchise to be called the Yakima Satellites. There was talk of the San Diego Wildfire moving to Yakima after their first season, but I think the Yakima group decided to get behind the CBA franchise.

[psbf]

As far as I know, there is only one Pittsburgh(Pa.), I live here. And the only pro Basketball teams that we've had are the Piranhas and the current Xplosion. I've never heard of the teams mentioned in the previous post.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Dan K is right (I told you I may have forgotten some...)

The Pittsburgh Patriots were indeed scheduled to play in 2002 - but nobody played that season:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_256759.html

[psbf]

Maybe you are confusing the Patriots with the Hard Hats. We never had a team called the Patriots. The Hard Hats were replaced at the last minute by the Pennsylvania Pit Bulls, who never promoted themselves.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

No - the HardHats were a different Pittsburgh team that was announced but never played a game. They came in prior to the 04-05 season, but had owners who failed to do things like acually pay any bills - including the $10K fee to join the league.

The Patriots were organized by a guy named Wayne Butler, who later ran the ABA's Squires franchise (I say ran, because that seemed to be his M.O. - start a team, make promises/deals, then run before actually paying for anything).

You didn't miss the Patriots; they were never much more than a team on paper only - which makes them very similar to dozens of other ABA franchises.

But yes, the HardHats were replaced by the PitBulls, who then moved to Florida, while the Xplosion filled the Pittsburgh market for the ABA, until moving to the CBA.

So, essentially, the 'Burgh has had four separate and distinct ABA franchises since the ABA began in 2000 - two never played a minute, and two others lasted one season apiece. Jacksonville has had three teams (Jackals, Wave and Jam), and has yet to complete a season), and other markets have had a similar track record.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Another link to the Pittsburgh ABA history - including a reference to the Patriots:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04277/389453.stm

[psbf]

ok, thanks for the history lesson, ABA. I only learned about the Hard hats after they were replaced, thru an article in the paper(about the Pitbulls), which is apparently more attention then the Patriots received. The only Patriots I see mentioned are the team in the NFL.

[BreakersFan]

Both Arkansas-Waco games have been postponed for this weekend

[gonzo13]

I've got simple question, I'm not sure anybody can answer, but here goes:
Since the leagues inception, how many teams have either folded midseason or never got off the ground?

[psbf]

An easier question may be, have any teams lasted longer than 2 years?

[Fells]

Okie doke, let's see if I have all of this correct. Pardon me if this is incorrect, but my flow chart software just blew up when I tried to enter all of this.

Fresno is alive but has moved to Sacramento in mid-season. (Well, early season which means they are in need of CPR) Baltimore is dead, Mexicali had its funeral, Toledo looks to be toast, Arkansas could be in trouble with the postponments of two of their games this weekend, and Hammond hasn't been heard from in awhile.

There are nine teams, including the ones who have folded who have played only one game; six teams who have played only two. Uncle Joe is of course not releasing any information on the website in regards to the teams who have folded, and the promised stats are not on the ABA site.

If Uncle Joe is watching me again(He has in the past; he doesn't like me much.) I am only stating FACTS.

By the way, I have e-mailed the teams whom we have not heard from in awhile for comment. After all, I am a journalist, I need facts and I can't be my usual jaded and cynical self unless I have accurate information. Now once I get the information, I can dissect it and then be jaded if the situation warrants.

[Sam Hill]

Boy, Joe is sure kicking a lot of teams out, isn't he?

[sportsguy12]

Buffalo fans were issued freebies by their local credit exchange, who purchased the seats for the occasion. I would not call those inflated numbers. Inflated is when a team adds empty seats to the attendence figures.

Well, if everyone gave away freebies then teams would have healthy attendance figures, or at least their gyms would look full. I have no problem with team's giving away tickets, but they shouldn't get praise for having a full house.

Freebies also led to financial woes because where does the revenue come from?

[Arkansas Connection]

Arkansas is not in trouble. Please make sure you understand the facts. Initially, the RiverCatz were slated to go to Waco on Saturday then come back to Springdale on Sunday. They requested the game to be rescheduled. That was decided last week. This week there were rumblings that Waco wasn't going to be able to host the Aeros on Friday and the RiverCatz on Saturday and it was agreed those games would be postponed, thus leaving both the Aeros and RiverCatz without games this weekend. Again, there's no trouble with Arkansas. I just wanted to address it before it got taken any further.

[bdaly]

Well, if everyone gave away freebies then teams would have healthy attendance figures, or at least their gyms would look full. I have no problem with team's giving away tickets, but they shouldn't get praise for having a full house.

Freebies also led to financial woes because where does the revenue come from?
In the case of Buffalo, that credit union purchased all the seats that evening. So, for Buffalo, the revenue came from them. I'm sure those seats were deeply discounted, but I'd bet the overall financial intake from that arrangement was a lot better than what a number of ABA teams normally enjoy on a weekday.

Freebies can devalue the product as fans get addicted to them. So you have to be careful. But, after a year of moving around from facility to facility, I'm sure Buffalo saw it as a way to reestablish themselves and show off the fact they're now in a decent facility again. So, I have no problem with that promotion.

[Fells]

Arkansas is not in trouble. Please make sure you understand the facts. Initially, the RiverCatz were slated to go to Waco on Saturday then come back to Springdale on Sunday. They requested the game to be rescheduled. That was decided last week. This week there were rumblings that Waco wasn't going to be able to host the Aeros on Friday and the RiverCatz on Saturday and it was agreed those games would be postponed, thus leaving both the Aeros and RiverCatz without games this weekend. Again, there's no trouble with Arkansas. I just wanted to address it before it got taken any further.

Thanks for the clarification.

[psbf]

That's nice to know, A.C.. But I'm curious to learn what the turnout average is for the Aeros and Riverkatz. I hope it's grown, since the 550 I last read at one of the games.

[nksports]

Add Richmond and Hammond to the CPR list

Better put Sacremento on the deep doggy doo-doo list, since teams that move during the season rarely last much longer. You have to start all your sales and marketing efforts from square one. Losses all start to pile up even more.
Sounds like Waco may be headed out.

[Fells]

An excerpt from Ron Mussleman's column who is a writer for the Toledo Blade.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061123/COLUMNIST37/611230449/-1/NEWS08


1. Toledo Ice. The fledgling American Basketball Association team has even fewer supporters than Tom Noe. Nobody wants to see the Ice play, and the organization has had trouble paying its own players and coaches. This might be the only franchise in America where the checks bounce higher than the basketballs.

[jamesaba]

Sacramento will make it thru the season. They pay their players between 50-100 bucks a game. The Fresno Heatwave (now Sac) was one of the original surviving teams from the new ABA. They survived the last 6 years, they will survive the move to Sacramento. They must have chosen to do this because the (a) the arena deal was too sweet to pass up and (b) they figured they could get more fans. Either way they won't fold this season.

By the way what would you guys write about if no ABA teams were folding?

[jamesaba]

Anyone give any credit to the fact that 102 out of 109 games have been played so far in the ABA season (94%)?

The USBL this year had 22 games out of 122 that were cancelled/ppd (81%).

[psbf]

ok, well here is something real that I'm curious to see if anyone has an answer for. I checked the Las Vegas Venom website, and it's replaced by the ABA site.

[preeths]

Anyone give any credit to the fact that 102 out of 109 games have been played so far in the ABA season (94%)?

The USBL this year had 22 games out of 122 that were cancelled/ppd (81%).

The ABA has been much better this year so far, but we're not even a month into the season. Neither of these leagues should be cancelling any games, though this is a big improvement for the ABA so far. Many teams are also reporting scores on game nights and a few even issue game recaps right away. A step in the right direction, yes. Cause for celebration? Not quite yet.

[sportsguy12]

Anyone give any credit to the fact that 102 out of 109 games have been played so far in the ABA season (94%)?

The USBL this year had 22 games out of 122 that were cancelled/ppd (81%).

The only reason leagues like the ABA and NIFL get a bad rap on here is because they bring it on themselves. The USBL games that were cancelled were because 2 teams had issues last year - and that number is for the ENTIRE season.

The ABA has had at least half a dozen teams fold up shop already due their over-expansion efforts. The USBL also doesn't move its teams during the season and hasn't bilked arenas, fans, players and sponsors out of money like some ABA owners, and I do emphasize some.

You don't move a team out of Fresno and then have your CEO announce that another team will be there next year? What is that about?

So just because you made it through a few weeks of the season and played 94 percent of your games ... don't expect praise on here. Just because you forgot about last year's debacles, doesn't mean that jilted fans and others in the communities have.

[psbf]

I look at the Sacramento move, I have to wonder how hard Fresno tried to promote the Heatwave, before the move. It's not fair to the fans for them to just get up and move in midseason and they never gave their fanbase a chance to grow.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

Sacramento will make it thru the season. They pay their players between 50-100 bucks a game. The Fresno Heatwave (now Sac) was one of the original surviving teams from the new ABA. They survived the last 6 years, they will survive the move to Sacramento. They must have chosen to do this because the (a) the arena deal was too sweet to pass up and (b) they figured they could get more fans. Either way they won't fold this season.
James-
They weren't an original ABA2000 team. They began in 2003. They were the longest tenured ABA team, but not six years.

But even using your information - why move now? They have had multiple seasons in Fresno, and have failed to create any sort of public buzz or a fan base, so they decide two weeks into the season to move? They had the entire off-season to look into a move to a new location, and work to get recognized in the community. Moving now makes no sense from a business perspective. How will they get more fans if those fans aren't aware of them in the first place? And what of thjose few fans they DID draw in Fresno? Did any of them pre-pay for season tickets? What about any sponsorships, radio agreements, and rental agreements for game and practice facilities? Will any of those funds be paid back to those groups (after all, they left town, so why should they keep the Fresno money)? Based upon their established business model, what makes you thinnk they will find the fountain of success in Sacramento that they failed to discover in over three years in Fresno?

By the way what would you guys write about if no ABA teams were folding?
In all honesty, the posts write themselves when the same thing happens time and again. There has been praise here for those organizations that are doing things the right way, but unfortunately those franchises are dwarfed by the dozens that prompt the many messages on this board.

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

Sacramento will make it thru the season. They pay their players between 50-100 bucks a game. The Fresno Heatwave (now Sac) was one of the original surviving teams from the new ABA. They survived the last 6 years, they will survive the move to Sacramento. They must have chosen to do this because the (a) the arena deal was too sweet to pass up and (b) they figured they could get more fans. Either way they won't fold this season...

Since we're speculating here, then they could have chosen (c) had to leave Dodge (err, Fresno) in a hurry because of unpaid bills. Who knows? I DO know that Fresno is a bad example for making your point. This team has a history of playing a few games, going into limbo, then resurfacing again just in time for the tournament. Therefore, they probably WON'T fold this season.

Anyone give any credit to the fact that 102 out of 109 games have been played so far in the ABA season (94%)?

The USBL this year had 22 games out of 122 that were cancelled/ppd (81%).

You DO realize that one of those teams responsible for the USBL cancellations (NEPA) came over from the ABA, don't you?

[psbf]

If memory serves me correctly, the Northeast Penn Breakers are another of the teams that left the league during midseason.

[panchess]

..with Toledo gonig broke, it marks the second team in Rochester's division (after the Xplosion) to disappear.

How long will it be before the RazorSharks, one of the successful teams in the ABA, to come over?

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

I don't see anything changing for Rochester during this season. They will play out the string - paying teams to come play them if necessary - and then examine their options after the season.

In a way, I think Rochester's choice of where they go in 07-08 could be a barometer for the future of each of the three leagues most directly impacted - the ABA, CBA and D-League.

If Rochester moves to the CBA, then that league will have weathered a TON of turnover to re-establish itself. If they go to the D-League, then there is a good chance that the CBA may follow soon after (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em...).

If Rochester stays in the ABA, then the league may be headed in the right direction, with the right people in charge (hint: nobody in attendance at yesterday's Newman holiday feast). But, if Rochester leaves for either league, the ABA - as currently constituted - will be a 3rd tier league soon after.

[Fells]

Sacramento will make it thru the season. They pay their players between 50-100 bucks a game. The Fresno Heatwave (now Sac) was one of the original surviving teams from the new ABA. They survived the last 6 years, they will survive the move to Sacramento. They must have chosen to do this because the (a) the arena deal was too sweet to pass up and (b) they figured they could get more fans. Either way they won't fold this season.

By the way what would you guys write about if no ABA teams were folding?

Myself, along with others, have given credit to the ABA where it is due. I am very impressed with the Vermont Frost Heaves and the way they are doing things, their marketing, the ownership, etc. The problem is the fact that teams are folding early into the season, and have a history of doing so is why we are critical of the league. If the league didn't have a history of cancelling games and folding teams, our opinions would be more positive.

Personally I love the 3-D rule, seven seconds to cross midcourt, and the quick inbound rule. This speeds up the game, and places an emphasis on defense. Personally, I would like to see a 20 second shot clock which is something I could see this league doing.

[psbf]

Fells, I go along with most of what you say because we agree on many things. But I have to make a correction, with due respect. You just said the league has a history of canceling games. The games are canceled by the owners, not the league. It's the owners of the teams who decide that the teams can't make it to their destinations, for whatever reason, that keep those games from being played. There have been fewer of those, this year, fortunately. But place the blame on the owners. I'm sure that the league wants the games to be played as much as us fans do. The league is not perfect(as we all know), but some things are out of their control.

[jamesaba]

There have been 102 of 109 games played so far this season (over 94%) in the ABA.

What makes you think CBA teams have the option to just "go to the NBDL"? THey have to pass the NBDL's financial criteria and it has to makes sense for them to increase their budget to about 1.5 million. For example, the Florida Pitbulls (with Tim Hardaway) "declared" they were leaving the ABA for the NBA but they were not accepted into the D-League. And most of the CBA is former ABA teams anyway.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

I didn't say they have an open option
(although much of the NBDL is made up of former CBA teams this year)

My comment relates to the fact that David Stern is on record as looking to expand the D-League to a full-fledged minor league, with a 1 to 1 NBA-NBDL team affiliation. The teams will have to come from somewhere. The CBA has a strong reputation and history of supplying players to the NBA. Regionally, they would fit.

As for Rochester, they may very well have the top organization in all of minor league basketball; if not #1, their aren't many ahead of them in line. They bring credibility to whichever league they end up with next year.

Finally, there are 892 games scheduled for this ABA season. How many do you predict will be played? 838 (94%)? 722 (81%)? As teams keep disappearing (forget the farce that they are 'suspended'), put your money on the under.....

[Sam Hill]

The games are canceled by the owners, not the league. It's the owners of the teams who decide that the teams can't make it to their destinations, for whatever reason, that keep those games from being played. There have been fewer of those, this year, fortunately. But place the blame on the owners. I'm sure that the league wants the games to be played as much as us fans do. The league is not perfect(as we all know), but some things are out of their control.

That's a nice way of passing the buck, but the fact is that the league has created the environment in which the owners "keep those games from being played."

At the end of the day, responsibility lies with the league. If the league had slightly stricter ownership guidelines than "your check clears" and "you sounded good in a phone conversation," owners who want to do things the right way wouldn't be held hostage by those owners who couldn't organize a slumber party for 11 year old girls.

[ABARedWhiteBlue]

To follow up on Sam's post...

Yes, the owners cancel the games - but the games are scheduled by the league office. Now this year, we are given an announcement that the schedule is released with an asterisk:

ABA ANNOUNCES LEAGUE PLAYING SCHEDULE - WITH AN ASTERISK

15-Sep-2006
Indianapolis, IN -- The American Basketball Association today announced its playing schedule for the upcoming season beginning in November -- with an asterisk.

According to Joe Newman, ABA CEO, "Putting together a schedule with 57 (note: 57 teams ultimately did not start the season, making the rest of this release academic; but I digress...) teams was a difficult assignment for Brad Hester, ABA VP of Team Operations. There were so many things to consider as relates to division and inter-division play. Our goal was to have teams play a wide variety of teams. With the cooperation of the teams at a group of conference meetings, Brad came up with the basics for a great schedule."

"The reason I asked Joe to put an asterisk next to the schedule is because it is our goal to tweak the schedule even more," stated Hester. "At our upcoming league meeting, we are going to sit down with the teams and make some minor adjustments - not so much in the home dates as with the opponents. Several teams across the country have asked specifically if the Hollywood team would visit, the same with the Beijing team, the same with the Vermont team and several others, including the defending champion Rochester RazorSharks. Our goal will be to accommodate in every way we can. So, the schedule is likely to have some minor changes."

So, there really wasn't a schedule set, if 'minor' changes are still being made. Is that solely the fault of the owners? And keep in mind, a person was hired with essentially the sole responsibility to put together the schedule.

Another example:
ASK THE CEO - READY FOR THE SEASON?

30-Oct-2006
Question from Bernie in New York: "Are you ready for the season?"

Answer: Bernie (and others): Thanks for the question. The teams and the league have been working very hard since the Final Playoff Game in March getting prepared for the season. We have again had a large expansion with quite a few new teams. Putting together a complete professional basketball organization is not easy. It has taken an immense amount of hard work by owners, staff, management, coaches, players, trainers, officials, league personnel to prepare for the upcoming 36 game schedule. Tom Doyle, ABA President and Brad Hester, VP of Team Operations have worked closely with the teams to make sure that everything is in place.
If 'everything is in place' - one would assume the schedule and little things like being ready to play have been discussed.

We have had to move some teams into 2007 because they were not ready.
Imagine how far behind these teams were if there are teams who 'passed' inspection, but have failed to last two weeks - Baltimore, Fresno, Toledo, etc...

We are very comfortable with the progress that our teams have made - and we do feel that they are ready to go.
So far the teams above were ready to go - all the way to oblivion, with other games being 're-scheduled' or 'postponed' with no announcement from the league office or website (which is basically useless since it was 'upgraded'). Fan friendly??

They feel they are ready also. I am sure that following the first home games and first away games that there will be some problems and that adjustments will have to be made.
Some teams still haven't had their first home or away game, so all the 'adjustments' still haven't been completed. And what, exactly, are these adjustments?

BTW - a quick quiz - how many professional leagues make 'adjustments' (semantics for 'scrambling to fill yet another gaping hole') after the year begins? This isn't the league's first rodeo - they have had since 2000 to figure out the fundamentals.

With a league as large as the ABA, playing in the US, Mexico and Canada - with over 600 players, 180 coaches, 300 officials and all of the other "stuff" involved - venues, travel, hotels, insurance, training, we'll have some "tweaking" to do.

If the schedule needs tweaking, why was it released in the first place? And if any of the other items in this list (venues, etc.) - all of which absolutely should have been secured long before the opening game - why are these teams playing this season, and how did they qualify as ready??

Now, it is up to the fans to support our teams - all trying to bring top quality professional basketball at affordable prices to the fans - making it possible for families, children, seniors, military to be able to see ABA games up close. We hope that the fan base will grow. Overall, Bernie, we're ready.
I'm sure the fans in Baltimore and especially Fresno - who had the opportunity to see the ABA up close for over three seasons and obviously declined to do so in droves - feel the league was ready to start the year.

Are the owners partially to blame? Absolutely. But not just the owners of the incompetent teams - a list of which continues to grow. The smart, stable ownership groups deserve some of the blame as well. Every canceled game or vanishing franchise is another balck mark that their team incurs in a guilt-by-association scenario. They need to step up and demand that every team be absolutely required to do it the right way, or get out. Not in November, but in May and June, so the season can be planned properly.

But, who is responsible for seeing that the teams are "ready" and ensuring that the fans the league so desperately craves can actually plan more than one day in advance to see their local team? Ask the CEO...

[bdaly]

In a way, I think Rochester's choice of where they go in 07-08 could be a barometer for the future of each of the three leagues most directly impacted - the ABA, CBA and D-League.

FWIW, the local media seems to be saying Rochester is keeping an eye on the D-League. It's a matter of travel making any sort of sense. At least, that's what Bob Matthews and Scott Pitoniak are saying in their podcast