constructive criticism of NWFA

[ChampionOfSteel]

Anyone care to kick things off on what top league management can do to make this league better?

I like the Detroit Demolition's proposal before they got the boot.

Quality control in this league is absent -- small rosters (low 20s) on many squads and the final scores are terrible -- 100-0, 97 -6, etc. Small rosters lead to forfeits. Poorly coached and/or giggle girls on teams make for lopsided scores.

What are your suggestions?

[mtedora]

w/ interest growing, and more NFL/NCAA connections being made, and with the possibility now of a tv deal, the league just needs to go existing for another 6 years [it's had 6 now, i think.] so many of these leagues don't stay around long enough for the dumb stuff to work its way out of them. in the case of the NWFA, the founder of the League seems to be a class act, and very serious about it. if it's around in another 6, it ought to be far more popular, and "professional."

[ChampionOfSteel]

w/ interest growing, and more NFL/NCAA connections being made, and with the possibility now of a tv deal, the league just needs to go existing for another 6 years [it's had 6 now, i think.] so many of these leagues don't stay around long enough for the dumb stuff to work its way out of them. in the case of the NWFA, the founder of the League seems to be a class act, and very serious about it. if it's around in another 6, it ought to be far more popular, and "professional."

So what?

It's much too easy for individual teams to pay a simple entrance fee to get in an existing league than to start over and call the shots themselves in a different and improved way.

The NIFL and AIFL (now AIFA) exist because it's too easy to let someone else run a league (into the ground) than to start your own league.

A class act doesn't kick out a team when differences errupt -- and differences (and heated ones) do errupt in virtually all relationships including business. I don't see a commitment to continuous improvement in the NWFA. Things just don't work out as you say they do. It takes recognition of issues, creativity and making a plan to do something about it, otherwise you'll have nothing but the same ole like we have in the NIFL each year.

[mtedora]

So what?

It's much too easy for individual teams to pay a simple entrance fee to get in an existing league than to start over and call the shots themselves in a different and improved way.

The NIFL and AIFL (now AIFA) exist because it's too easy to let someone else run a league (into the ground) than to start your own league.

A class act doesn't kick out a team when differences errupt -- and differences (and heated ones) do errupt in virtually all relationships including business. I don't see a commitment to continuous improvement in the NWFA. Things just don't work out as you say they do. It takes recognition of issues, creativity and making a plan to do something about it, otherwise you'll have nothing but the same ole like we have in the NIFL each year.
so massive expansion, growing popularity, increasing crowds at games, annually more press coverage in more mediums, far more potential players showing up for try-outs, a possible television deal: what exactly do you attribute that to, if things are going so terribly for the NWFA?

[preeths]

so massive expansion, growing popularity, increasing crowds at games, annually more press coverage in more mediums, far more potential players showing up for try-outs, a possible television deal: what exactly do you attribute that to, if things are going so terribly for the NWFA?

I think some of that is a matter of perception. I don't really see the popularity growing that quickly. It's a niche sport and most likely will be for at least the next several decades. I haven't seen any evidence of increasing crowds or more press coverage. On both counts, some markets are better than others, and that's the way it has always been. A possible TV deal? I'll believe it when I see it.

[ChampionOfSteel]

so massive expansion, growing popularity, increasing crowds at games, annually more press coverage in more mediums, far more potential players showing up for try-outs, a possible television deal: what exactly do you attribute that to, if things are going so terribly for the NWFA?

Erie Illusion, Atlanta Leopards, Knoxville Tornadoes and Indiana Thunder situations.

No parity (take a look at the blowout scores) and teams closing up shop during the season. Sounds like NIFL 2 to me.

That should be priority number one to fix rather than TV deals, etc.

By the way, the last championship game was played before a smaller crowd in Pittsburgh rather than at Louisville's Papa John's stadium.

[ChampionOfSteel]

I think some of that is a matter of perception. I don't really see the popularity growing that quickly. It's a niche sport and most likely will be for at least the next several decades. I haven't seen any evidence of increasing crowds or more press coverage. On both counts, some markets are better than others, and that's the way it has always been. A possible TV deal? I'll believe it when I see it.

NWFA is pay to play scenario. As long as the players cough up $300+ dollars each a year, the team will make it thru an 8 game season. If a team makes the playoffs, the players are expected to cough up their own airfare for road games.

Increasing crowds? Nah, that's just the immediate family and friends of the players in attendance.

[mtedora]

NWFA is pay to play scenario. As long as the players cough up $300+ dollars each a year, the team will make it thru an 8 game season. If a team makes the playoffs, the players are expected to cough up their own airfare for road games.

Increasing crowds? Nah, that's just the immediate family and friends of the players in attendance.
wrong, inaccurate. do some research.

[preeths]

wrong, inaccurate. do some research.

Then explain where he is wrong. A post like this is useless to the conversation without providing some details.

[mtedora]

Then explain where he is wrong. A post like this is useless to the conversation without providing some details.
but research is hard work, Sir; if i did everybody's research for them, it's all i would ever do. that'd be fairly foolish. and look at his assertion, for example, that only friends and family go to NWFA games. i'm not even touching that with detail, it's absurd.

[mtedora]

all criticisms aside, it's the best League they have - it's a fledgling League, and it's growing because of a legacy of intense love for the game on the part of women. now they got their full-contact, cool logos, the uniforms, a number of NFL and NCAA players and associates on staff, the match-ups and regional rivalries, the race for a real trophy involving real road-trips, the comradarie. they're luvin' it, and they're saying it's worth it, injuries and all.
who's gone through all those excellent videos about the NWFA at google.com? i found them inspiring, (the brutal hits from game footage really surprised me) and i think most people would find those videos inspiring.
now , once the League's been around a while, one would hope that the women will eventually get some kind of pay. some kind of at least semi-pro paycheck for each game. official statements i'm reading say the League hopes to be able to do that, so it's not being swept under the proverbial rug. and with trends like Ickey Wodds owning a team now, and FRANCO HARRIS promoting the Pittsburgh Passion with energy, who knows what it'll become? (not to mention the DISH NET deal, which hopefully will crystalize)

[Pounder]

This sounds no different than what I've witnessed with a couple IWFL teams.

First off- Champ wants to complain about numbers on the teams? This is essentially volunteer football. Kind of like high school: coaches are hoping that women show up in numbers. It's really hard to recruit for little to no income potential. I tend to consider this a rec league; obviously not worthy of OSC coverage, but important to send the message that getting in the game IS the thing.

Of course, with this setup, TV is a LONG way off. Professional standards are a fleeting thing. These leagues depend on recruiting from the towns where the teams reside, they are not salary-cap driven parity-goal leagues. You get what you get. Hopefully, something comes of it... there's no guarantee that anything comes of it. It is what it is.

[ChampionOfSteel]

but research is hard work, Sir; if i did everybody's research for them, it's all i would ever do. that'd be fairly foolish. and look at his assertion, for example, that only friends and family go to NWFA games. i'm not even touching that with detail, it's absurd.

Personal experience. I've been to the local team's games. I know what the crowd size and makeup of the folks there over the past years I've been going.

I know personally from my accountant who has a daughter on a NWFA team, the financial requirements.

Now it's your turn to support your comments.

[ChampionOfSteel]

This sounds no different than what I've witnessed with a couple IWFL teams.

First off- Champ wants to complain about numbers on the teams? This is essentially volunteer football. Kind of like high school: coaches are hoping that women show up in numbers. It's really hard to recruit for little to no income potential. I tend to consider this a rec league; obviously not worthy of OSC coverage, but important to send the message that getting in the game IS the thing.

Of course, with this setup, TV is a LONG way off. Professional standards are a fleeting thing. These leagues depend on recruiting from the towns where the teams reside, they are not salary-cap driven parity-goal leagues. You get what you get. Hopefully, something comes of it... there's no guarantee that anything comes of it. It is what it is.

We are getting off track here. The point was improvement talk.

High school football has volunteer players too. Some school districts when times are tough have about the same $300 per player requirement as well.

I'm advocating splitting NWFA into two parts -- NWFA and NWFA II -- like the Detroit Demolition folks advocated.

NWFA II is for those teams that fail to meet a minimum standard -- roster size and talent.

Inspect each team for roster/talent/fiscal fitness during the preseason camp. Those that pass get a NWFA schedule. Those that fail get a NWFA II schedule.

An NWFA II schedule is a week-by-week schedule that can be broken at any moments notice due to a lack of players, etc.

The NWFA schedule is written in granite because all of the teams have good health to make it thru without problems.

If CM doesn't want to mess around with NWFA II, then those teams that fail their preseason camp inspection sit-out the year and try again next year. You don't book deals with hotels and stadium rental for those teams that are unstable.

Once this model is in place, then we can talk about TV deals. No TV deal wants to show games in a league that has no quality control mechanism in place.

End of discussion.

I should be in charge.

[Pounder]

It's not the end of discussion.

I highly doubt your NWFA I crowds allow teams to afford increased travel.

Nearly every high school gets male players. Where is women's football being sponsored in high school? Or youth level? That directly affects the level of play the women muster, the likelihood for support, and a tradition of playing. Without that, these teams wil have a heck of a time cobbling together a national league. Since I doubt schools are taking this up, these teams would have to make enough money to sponsor the youth development themselves.

You're talking about the grass roots of the sport, the top and bottom levels, all in one. It's going to take a LOT of time to really move the thing anywhere.

[ChampionOfSteel]

It's not the end of discussion.

I highly doubt your NWFA I crowds allow teams to afford increased travel.

Nearly every high school gets male players. Where is women's football being sponsored in high school? Or youth level? That directly affects the level of play the women muster, the likelihood for support, and a tradition of playing. Without that, these teams wil have a heck of a time cobbling together a national league. Since I doubt schools are taking this up, these teams would have to make enough money to sponsor the youth development themselves.

You're talking about the grass roots of the sport, the top and bottom levels, all in one. It's going to take a LOT of time to really move the thing anywhere.

No increase in travel.

There's plenty of NWFA I teams that exist right now that can play each other at least 2 and maybe in a rare case 3 times each year in the regular season to get an eight game season in. Travel would be under 7 hours one way for all away games.

Take a look at the teams set for the spring of 2007 and then subtract the unstable teams from the list. There's no shortage of NWFA I teams within reasonable driving distance of each other.

If a NWFA II team doesn't have anyone around within reasonable driving distance, scrimmage against yourself all year until you get the roster numbers to play nearby teams in NWFA I the following year.

[mtedora]

ideally, all NWFA Teams would evolve into the "look," the "presence" the "marketability," and the home spectator turn-out (which obviously goes way beyond friends and family when it's MISL-like numbers of around 5000 per home game) of the fabulous PITTSBURGH PASSION, promoted now by the likes of Franco Harris; ...and it may take a while. i hope it crystalizes for the League, and for these Women who love the game, and who are not allowed to play in HS and COLLEGE because it's the one sport the schools won't assemble W-parallels of, because of sheer arse-backwardness and renegade outmoded puritanical conservatism..... having said that, i believe strongly, and have expressed as much to some of the brass at the NWFA and WPFL, that an ARENA/INDOOR W-League of Football would be a lot more lucrative/successful, and evolve thusly a lot quicker, even if it began like the WIFL with 4 teams or whatever. an Indoor League is simply more "user-friendly" for spectators and families, and there's - perhaps unfortunately - that little "exploitation" element to it, that draws people in WAVES to ROLLERJAM matches. i lived in Lincoln, Nebraska for a few years, and their Indoor Football Team, THE CAPITOLS, did ok in the stands every once in a while (i used to work concessions at the games) but when ROLLERJAM showed up one week, the facility burst at the seams. there's a twisted fascination aspect involved. and i think that could lead in it's own ADAM SMITHIAN way to Women actually getting payed to play football.
like someone else has said here... I SHOULD BE IN CHARGE ;-}~

[ChampionOfSteel]

ideally, all NWFA Teams would evolve into the "look," the "presence" the "marketability," and the home spectator turn-out (which obviously goes way beyond friends and family when it's MISL-like numbers of around 5000 per home game) of the fabulous PITTSBURGH PASSION, promoted now by the likes of Franco Harris; ...and it may take a while. i hope it crystalizes for the League, and for these Women who love the game, and who are not allowed to play in HS and COLLEGE because it's the one sport the schools won't assemble W-parallels of, because of sheer arse-backwardness and renegade outmoded puritanical conservatism..... having said that, i believe strongly, and have expressed as much to some of the brass at the NWFA and WPFL, that an ARENA/INDOOR W-League of Football would be a lot more lucrative/successful, and evolve thusly a lot quicker, even if it began like the WIFL with 4 teams or whatever. an Indoor League is simply more "user-friendly" for spectators and families, and there's - perhaps unfortunately - that little "exploitation" element to it, that draws people in WAVES to ROLLERJAM matches. i lived in Lincoln, Nebraska for a few years, and their Indoor Football Team, THE CAPITOLS, did ok in the stands every once in a while (i used to work concessions at the games) but when ROLLERJAM showed up one week, the facility burst at the seams. there's a twisted fascination aspect involved. and i think that could lead in it's own ADAM SMITHIAN way to Women actually getting payed to play football.
like someone else has said here... I SHOULD BE IN CHARGE ;-}~

Your comment doesn't address the original 11 against 11 outdoor game issue of improvement.

There will be quality control issues with the indoor game as well.

Both indoor and outdoor will require sufficient roster sizes, etc. to succeed. Your didn't address the protocol of making success (with success being defined as all teams make it thru an entire year without folding, and a strong degree of parity) happen season after season.