Any thoughts on IBL?

[SignGuyDino]

I was watching the IBL website last night and follow them from time to time.

IBL has quietly grown to a couple of dozen teams without many failures among them.

While they have a 22-second shot clock, scores are really going up due to two speed-up rules: One timeout per quarter (no carryovers), and immediate inbounds. This keeps the flow in the game and scores often go in the hundreds and still finish under 2 hours. They just go with whatever 3 point line is on the court at the time, meaning likely high school or college lines. That obviously helps scoring.

(I have no problem telling folks up front I'm considering these two rule changes IF my "4 Man Basketball Association" starts up next summer as a house league in Asheville. It makes perfect sense. Maybe I'll be generous and give 2 4th quarter timeouts, that's it.)

I have to say that video on their website from their crowd in Elkhart was quite enthusiastic (and pretty large). I never saw the continual buzz from a crowd from an NBDL game in Asheville (yes, a few times where the crowd was loud, but not a continual buzz).

They want to have a lot more teams, unfortuantely, I see no evidence of them expanding southeast. Asheville would be a good fit if there were about 6 more teams here, problem here would be getting a venue. The best place is Justice Gym (about 1,200, which is perfect), or Asheville High (about 3,000) but both have renovation and other issues for 2007.

I kind of wish they'd merge with the WBA, but that's not going to happen. The WBA has a lot of good things going for it, too, but they dictate nearly exact NBA rules, for understandable reasons. Problem is the NBA game is so start-and-stop (college is this way too).

I would have considered IBL an "A" level league starting out, but I'd have to consider them "AA" at this level as the play is clearly a lot stronger. (I'd have to give the WBA an edge talent wise but there's good basketball in both leagues.)

I do wonder how the IBL could be on TV someday (local deals) with it's insistance on fewer timeouts? The timeouts are for marketing reasons obviously.

Anyone else with thoughts about the IBL?

[BreakersFan]

If they keep going and stay in small to medium size markets, it should do well. The teams that do well are in places where they are the only game in town, so not much competition for sponsors and fans. The business model seems to work fairly well - maybe people aren't making money, but at least they aren't losing hundreds of thousands like they are in the CBA,NBDL, and USBL.

While the level of play is a step below the USBL, the IBL at least offers stability. The fact that the IBL palyed all of it's scheduled games last year is very impressive. With other leagues like the ABA and USBL, you have no idea if the schedule will actually be played. That isn't a concern in the IBL - the league has actually taken over teams (Lansing) to ensure that they finish the season in a credible way - that doesn't happen in other leagues.

My biggest issue with the IBL is its image. While they seem to have better marketing than any of the other leagues, it still looks amateurish because of their strange standings where each team doesn't play the same number of games. And the biggest thing against their image is that their website doesn't have a real stats section. Also that game-by-game recap instead of listing a real league schedule makes them look goofy.

TV coverage isn't a realistic possibility for any minor basketball league, so the fewer timeouts doesn't strike me as a problem. It seems like they have found a good niche. If the midwest USBL teams go to the WBA as they have discussed, I expect the USBL to go out of business, leaving some eastern markets and perhaps southestern markets looking more seriously at the IBL.

[patmc16]

The fact that the IBL palyed all of it's scheduled games last year is very impressive.

Sorry to say that the league did not play all of it's scheduled games last year. I have some unused Macomb County Mustangs season tickets left over that prove it. My entire image of the league took a major hit when I showed up to an empty gym not once but twice. No warning, no nothing. Not even a sign on the door saying the games were cancelled (which would have saved me the second trip). I found the situation to be very ABA'ish. I'll never buy minor league hoops season tickets again.

[SignGuyDino]

That's not good that some games didn't happen, I've been through that before.

Even with that, comparing it to the ABA is a bit of a reach. Websites are a problem for EVERY league that isn't NBDL and CBA. There's no excuse for it. Even simple listings of scores for every game would be fine for most of us. We know owners generally aren't savvy enough to put up stats for every game, but an update of standings and scores all the time isn't that much to ask.

I'd have to suggest that if all you looking for was a sign on the door, meaning you didn't see it in the media, or if you didn't call the team, that was your sign there.

I'm thinking USBL may try to exist even if there are a bunch of defections (like CBA is after the D-league defections), but of course they don't have the strength of the CBA and may have a half dozen teams. It would be ironic if the USBL folded given those idiotic comments by that USBL coach about the IBL.

Coaches should shut the hell up about legit leagues just coach the games.

[Bruce B]

I think the overall concept behind the IBL is pretty good, and as long as they keep an eye on the bottom line and don't let expenses get out of hand, they should survive.

The problem with cancelled games lies not with the league, but with individual team owners. You could be the best commissioner in the world, but if the people who own teams in your league aren't holding up their end of the bargain, you've got a problem. "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link," and all that. I've pretty much said what I had to say on the IBL on my op-ed piece Paul posted on OSC Saturday.

What's the story on the USBL's difficulties? I'm a shareholder, but that doesn't mean anything. In five years, I've never received any kind of notification from the league beyond the initial "welcome" package and a phone call from Dan Meisenheimer when I first invested (which I thought was rather classy). They have one of the greatest niches a minor league could have as a summer league, but have never really turned the corner with it.

[BreakersFan]

Sorry to say that the league did not play all of it's scheduled games last year. I have some unused Macomb County Mustangs season tickets left over that prove it. My entire image of the league took a major hit when I showed up to an empty gym not once but twice. No warning, no nothing. Not even a sign on the door saying the games were cancelled (which would have saved me the second trip). I found the situation to be very ABA'ish. I'll never buy minor league hoops season tickets again.

That is disturbing to be sure. The IBL says that it did play all the scheduled games, and I took that to be true. Imagine that! Misinformation from a minor league!

[BreakersFan]

Websites are a problem for EVERY league that isn't NBDL and CBA. There's no excuse for it. Even simple listings of scores for every game would be fine for most of us. We know owners generally aren't savvy enough to put up stats for every game, but an update of standings and scores all the time isn't that much to ask.




As of today, if you click on the "League Directory" tab, the CBA website still lists addresses and contact info for only 6 teams: Albany, Yakama, Gary, Michigan, Rockford, and San Jose. Of course 4 of those teams aren't playing and there are 8 new teams that aren't in the directory at all.

I know that is a ticky-tack criticism, but it is October 9, some of the new teams were announced months ago. The league directory should be up to date.

[BreakersFan]

[QUOTE=SignGuyDino;25654]
I'm thinking USBL may try to exist even if there are a bunch of defections (like CBA is after the D-league defections), but of course they don't have the strength of the CBA and may have a half dozen teams.

QUOTE]

You might be right. The Dodge City paper reported that Dodge City, Oklahoma, and Kansas were considering going to the WBA, and that Nebraska might fold. That would leave only Albany, Brooklyn, Gary, and a very shaky Long Island team left, so they's have to find 2-3 more somewhere between Indiana and the northeast. Erie, Elmira, and Chicago were rumored this summer but Erie is out and nothing else on the others.

[SignGuyDino]

As of today, if you click on the "League Directory" tab, the CBA website still lists addresses and contact info for only 6 teams: Albany, Yakama, Gary, Michigan, Rockford, and San Jose. Of course 4 of those teams aren't playing and there are 8 new teams that aren't in the directory at all.

I know that is a ticky-tack criticism, but it is October 9, some of the new teams were announced months ago. The league directory should be up to date.

That's what I get for being nice.

[/end SignGuyDino Nice Mode]

[patmc16]

That is disturbing to be sure. The IBL says that it did play all the scheduled games, and I took that to be true. Imagine that! Misinformation from a minor league!

The Mustangs' schedule had 20 games on it (10 home/10 away). They actually played only 13 games (8 home/5 away), less than any other team in the league, I believe.

I'd have to suggest that if all you looking for was a sign on the door, meaning you didn't see it in the media, or if you didn't call the team, that was your sign there.

Not seeing anything in the media didn't mean anything, as the team never received media attention at any point, when they were playing or not. For that reason, I was literally looking for a note on the door to the gym letting people know. The media wasn't going to announce that a team that it never acknowledged had folded. If nothing else, he should have at least tried to contact the season ticket holders (by phone or e-mail) and let them know. Based on attendance, there couldn't have been too many of us so it wouldn't have been a huge task. The team contact number was owner Bill Bullock's cell phone. I didn't call it but I did try e-mailing him. The message was returned as undeliverable. When that happened, there really was no point in calling him. There were other signs that the team was done after this year, but I assumed they would play out the string. I came back the second time because, if they did play, I knew it would be the last game in franchise history. I was there for the first game in history and wanted to be there for the last. I had talked personally to Bill a few times early in the season. He all but said this season would be the end. He was very visable early in the season (and the season before), but totally disappeared towards the end. I realize the ABA is in a whole other universe when it comes to unprofessionalism but for the team to just disappear as if it never existed, in my opinion, is ABA'ish.

[Marshall Benjamin]

The IBL is another trash league, I deal with a lot of overseas scouts and acouts here in the US and they all said they would not recruit any players from the IBL they do not play a good brand of basketball and nyway who would play for $150 a game what kind of money is that to live on and take care of a family.

[preeths]

You're obviously not going to try to take care of a family on that. For all but the very young, it is a part-time job, and that's it. For some, it has the potential to turn into more, but no one can expect to make a career out of it.

[one way]

here is a thought about the IBL. It is not a selling point to say that your league does not have time-outs. Real basketball fans know the importance of a time-out and it can save a ball game. The problem with the IBL is that they have bad coaches (volunteers from the local AAU), a high school gym, a high school arc, and people are not paying money to watch guys that they see working 9-5 at the grocery store. No professionalsim = no bucks

[sportsguy12]

I don't have any vested interest in the IBL, but they have to be more professional than the ABA and even USBL, which have had teams fold throughout the season. (NOTE: The ABA is far worse than the USBL).

The point of the IBL (in addition to trying to make a buck) is to showcase players. At least these players are getting paid something, which isn't the case in the ABA at times.

The IBL, though there is changeover in teams, seems to be more organized than other leagues and seems to have the geographical cluster thing down to a science.

[AConcernedCitizen]

What's really wrong with this league then? Here's a question, how is the quality of entertainment on the game day? Do the people who attend seem pleased by what they saw?

There are many, many more hundreds (actually there are thousands) of guys who graduate Div I and Div II every year who can't find a place to play in Europe or South America. Thousands went to see them in college but they suddenly aren't good enough to play?

This league provides entertainment. What I would like to hear is how that entertainment rated not to someone who compares it to the Lakers but on its own merits.

[Ballfan]

I dont really think the league is a trash league as one poster put it. It is a new league and growing. All leagues that start have ups and downs. I follow this league and it seems as if alot of guys (atleast 10 I think from reading USbasket.com) have gone overseas and gotten really good deals with D 1 Europe, South America, & Middle East teams. I read atleast one guy went to a NBA summer league last summer and then signed overseas after playing in the IBL last season so thats not a bad thing. I think the IBL will just get better once the growing pains subside. You cant make alot of money in this league but its the opportunity to get exposure and it is a developmental SUMMER league and it must work because of the guys who played last year that are all overseas now. As far as atleast making $150 or more a game thats really not bad part time money when you play two/three games a week and hardly have a practice to attend. The whole point is to get exposure and develop and I think it is working so far. I think its a pretty good summer league. Its nice to see former NBA players coming on also.

[Aces2007]

So far so good - the leagues seems to be off to a good start and has had some 1000+ crowds. We'll see how the USBL does.

[abie10]

has anyone ever seen the franchise information for this league?

there goal is entertainment. the guide shows you how to run a team from hiring staff to trading services. doing everything on the cheap. ibl players don't make a lot of money, but i think (personally anyway) that entertainment is their main goal and not showcasing players. they say in the manual that paying your players $60 for a home game is a good starting point for smaller teams, and not to let ANYONE quit their day jobs. for smaller teams they recommend getting the head coach as a volunteer position. looking for someone that is trying to get known and builld their resume.

they have the right ideas for minor league basketball. play in smaller gyms 1200 people in a 5000 seat arena isn't as impressive as 1200 in a smaller gym. they tell you to hire minimal staff, use interns, trade services for advertising.

they have a great business plan for prospective owners to run teams cheaply and successfully. i know cheap is a bad word but i'm tired and can't think.

i think the ibl will be successful not in the form of promoting players or even having the best teams, but in terms of providing great basketball for low prices to small and mid size markets...

[Shootmaster_44]

has anyone ever seen the franchise information for this league?

there goal is entertainment. the guide shows you how to run a team from hiring staff to trading services. doing everything on the cheap. ibl players don't make a lot of money, but i think (personally anyway) that entertainment is their main goal and not showcasing players. they say in the manual that paying your players $60 for a home game is a good starting point for smaller teams, and not to let ANYONE quit their day jobs. for smaller teams they recommend getting the head coach as a volunteer position. looking for someone that is trying to get known and builld their resume.

they have the right ideas for minor league basketball. play in smaller gyms 1200 people in a 5000 seat arena isn't as impressive as 1200 in a smaller gym. they tell you to hire minimal staff, use interns, trade services for advertising.

they have a great business plan for prospective owners to run teams cheaply and successfully. i know cheap is a bad word but i'm tired and can't think.

i think the ibl will be successful not in the form of promoting players or even having the best teams, but in terms of providing great basketball for low prices to small and mid size markets...

I read through it and thought it was a good plan for a fresh market. The only problem with a team in an established market with a smaller budget is that the fans are expected what the previous team did. If you don't deliver that, they will be turned off. I remember that was slightly the case with the Canadian Baseball League. I went to one of their games, here in Saskatoon, expecting the same sort of game day things the Prairie League and NCL did. Unfortunately, they did not do that, I mean how hard is it to put together a lineup and scorecard for a baseball game.

So I'm thinking fans of basketball in Saskatoon will expect the IBL to put forth the same effort as the WBL and NBL did. If Troy Burns and company doesn't put forth that same effort, I'm not sure the fans would come back. What the IBL seems to believe is that people are coming solely for the on-court play and in minor league sports, that isn't the case. What people come out for is entertainment and the on-court play is only a portion of that.

If there's no professional cheerleaders, gimmicks on the scoreboard or prize giveaways, you will lose a portion of your fanbase. Some might argue this is a good thing to drive away the fairweather fan, leaving only die-hard basketball fans. But in reality the bottom line is the game itself is irrelevant, what is more relevant is getting people through the door. If it means having a local celeb in a dunk tank or giving away a free trip to Florida, so be it. Unfortunately, those who choose to run their franchise the frugal way won't have a franchise for very long unless they are in a small town.

The other problem the IBL will incur is if they expand to larger Canadian cities, fans will expect what the CBA and the old WBL and NBL did in terms of fan entertainment. So to do this owners will be forced to use the bigger business plans and thus the teams in small town America, that could get by on the frugal business plans would suffer. If Saskatoon is throwing around large sums of money and Vancouver, WA isn't, well then the more talented players will follow the almighty dollar and the league will be dominated by the larger cities. What the IBL needs to do is institute a salary cap, so that everyone can only spend a certain amount of money, that way the more frugal teams don't end up going 0-20 or 3-17 or whatever because they cannot afford the better players.

My other cursory thought on the IBL is why does every team seem to play a different number of regular season games? If the IBL claims that all 249 games scheduled were played, then why isn't the schedule balanced? In fact, why was there 249 games scheduled in the first place? Wouldn't 250 or some other even number divisible by the number of teams be a better idea?

All in all, I am excited about the Saskatoon team, in fact my dad's already talking buying season tickets. But I have a few slight worries about the league and how it will translate at the box office in the larger Canadian cities.

[BreakersFan]

The IBL is another trash league,.

A big city's trash is a small city's treasure...

I think the IBL will do quite well in smaller markets (such as Elkhart) but it will srtuggle in larger metro areas that are accustomed to high-level minor sports.

The USBL is clearly the highest level of spring ball, but the IBL is much more stable and doing a better marketing job.

If I had to invest money in one of those leagues, I'd put it into the IBL before the USBL anyday....

[Ballfan]

has anyone ever seen the franchise information for this league?

there goal is entertainment. the guide shows you how to run a team from hiring staff to trading services. doing everything on the cheap. ibl players don't make a lot of money, but i think (personally anyway) that entertainment is their main goal and not showcasing players. they say in the manual that paying your players $60 for a home game is a good starting point for smaller teams, and not to let ANYONE quit their day jobs. for smaller teams they recommend getting the head coach as a volunteer position. looking for someone that is trying to get known and builld their resume.

they have the right ideas for minor league basketball. play in smaller gyms 1200 people in a 5000 seat arena isn't as impressive as 1200 in a smaller gym. they tell you to hire minimal staff, use interns, trade services for advertising.

they have a great business plan for prospective owners to run teams cheaply and successfully. i know cheap is a bad word but i'm tired and can't think.

i think the ibl will be successful not in the form of promoting players or even having the best teams, but in terms of providing great basketball for low prices to small and mid size markets...


I would hope the goal of the IBL would be both entertainment and helping guys to get some experience and notice. Anybody can go to a Y game and see ball. If you put some quality players in then people will want to see quality along with entertainment. If the league just goes around getting cheap players and having cheap entertainnment who wants to see that? If they dont plan to develop or showcase players along with good entertainment honestly who wants to see that? People want to see players who actually have a chance to do something in ball not just some Y ball guys. Hiring a volunteer coach is crazy and way cheap. This will make the league look cheap and bad. Its a shame cause if that is the thinking of this league it wont last. People do not like cheap and worthless play. This league could really do good if owners would just see the potential and not just a cheap way to make some cash. Look at all the teams in the past like in the past CBA who did good and it was because they put time & money into what they believed in. Fans will see right through a cheap franchise. This league is doing good and not having players who want to better their game and move on is a shame. Just focusing on cheap entertainment/players will not work. You have rec ball for cheap things like that. I say compete with the other summer leagues like USBL and make this league have a good reputation not be known as cheap entertainment with sorry YMCA players and volunteer grocery store clerk coaches. Cheap is a really bad word but is is the only word you can use for what you are saying. If you have players who develop and do really good and possibly move on to the NBA you dont think that would make this league look good and the hometown want to see more??!! Instead just focus on cheap enterianment is purely crazy and makes no business sense at all. If I am gonna spend money on a game with my family I want to see good ball players who actually have a shot and good entertainment. Not rec ball players and cheap entertianment by a volunteer coach who has no experience but coaching middle school kids because no one in their right mind of quality would volunteer to coach. You get paid to coach middle school and high school atleast! Sorry but great basketball can not go along with cheap. Look at the teams who are doing bad. They are the ones with the rec league players and volunteer coaches. That will tell you alot right there!

[storm]

There is alot of good talent as alot of IBL players have signed contracts to play in top European leagues as well as have been taken a look at by NBA teams as the league has some real good players like Byron Russell, Samaki Walker, Toby Bailey, Donald Watts, David Lucas, Micheal Lee, Erick Barkley, Anthony Miller just to name a few as these are not your Y or rec players as there is a lot of good young talent and veterans in the league as is more stable than any of the other leagues. All teams have different ways of paying and running there teams as it's the owners at the end of the day decide how much money they want to put in there team.

[Ballfan]

There is alot of good talent as alot of IBL players have signed contracts to play in top European leagues as well as have been taken a look at by NBA teams as the league has some real good players like Byron Russell, Samaki Walker, Toby Bailey, Donald Watts, David Lucas, Micheal Lee, Erick Barkley, Anthony Miller just to name a few as these are not your Y or rec players as there is a lot of good young talent and veterans in the league as is more stable than any of the other leagues. All teams have different ways of paying and running there teams as it's the owners at the end of the day decide how much money they want to put in there team.

I agree 100% that there is ALOT of good talent in the IBL. That is why I 100% disagree with the poster who said this league should be about entertainment and not players. That does not make any sense. The poster said go for cheap and if you go cheap you will not get good quality and will be known as a joke league. Right now it is doing good and to hear someone say dont showcase players etc and just go cheap is crazy. I say get good players and not cheap ones and get good coaches not volunteer no experience ones. Yes if you put money into quality you will get that back. If you go cheap it will never work. That is business 101.

[mammal]

I have said this before, the IBL is the best run minor league.
-The commish is hands on and knows what is going on with all teams.
-The officiating is college level across the board. I have seen many IBL games as a fan and as a color commentator for radio and television. I have never see a game get out of hand.
-The talent is getting better year after year. There is good young talent along with some former NBA players.
-The schedules are not suggestions. Teams play all their games. If a team is struggling the league steps in and helps the team finish the year.
-The cluster scheduling saves on travel costs.

Other leagues should take notes. I expect the IBL to be the top minor league, outside the D-League, in a few years.

[patmc16]

The schedules are not suggestions. Teams play all their games. If a team is struggling the league steps in and helps the team finish the year.

Again, this is simply not true. See my posts earlier in this thread. I am not going to bash the league because I enjoyed the games that I attended and believe, overall, it is a good product. However, my home team last year, the Macomb County Mustangs played only 13 games. I still have several unused season tickets left over. Their 5-8 record is still on the league home page. I also have 2 different versions of their schedule from last season showing all 20 scheduled games. By my calculation, they played 65% of their schedule. The league did not step in. The team just faded away without a word from the team, league or anyone else.

[Shootmaster_44]

I have said this before, the IBL is the best run minor league.
-The commish is hands on and knows what is going on with all teams.
-The officiating is college level across the board. I have seen many IBL games as a fan and as a color commentator for radio and television. I have never see a game get out of hand.
-The talent is getting better year after year. There is good young talent along with some former NBA players.
-The schedules are not suggestions. Teams play all their games. If a team is struggling the league steps in and helps the team finish the year.
-The cluster scheduling saves on travel costs.

Other leagues should take notes. I expect the IBL to be the top minor league, outside the D-League, in a few years.

Well this is good news for me then. The IBL has games televised?

I would like to see the IBL become the equivalent of the NBL in Australia. An off-season league that attracts some of the top talent from around the world. I know this is minor league basketball, but I'd love to see some of the better Euros come over and play in the IBL. The other option, is for the IBL to take after the WBL and invite some of the Euro teams to tour the league. I remember an Italian team played the Storm and it was some of the best basketball I have ever seen live.

Since there's been talk about FIBA sanctioning on the ABA board, I am curious is the IBL FIBA sanctioned?

[Shootmaster_44]

Again, this is simply not true. See my posts earlier in this thread. I am not going to bash the league because I enjoyed the games that I attended and believe, overall, it is a good product. However, my home team last year, the Macomb County Mustangs played only 13 games. I still have several unused season tickets left over. Their 5-8 record is still on the league home page. I also have 2 different versions of their schedule from last season showing all 20 scheduled games. By my calculation, they played 65% of their schedule. The league did not step in. The team just faded away without a word from the team, league or anyone else.

That was the first thing that struck me as odd about the IBL. It seems like very few teams played the same amount of games. Some teams have barely any home games. I've never gotten a straight answer out of the IBL Commish (well no answer) or an answer out of the new owner of the Saskatoon team, why this scheduling imbalance occurs. If teams in the same division played the same amount of games, then I'd understand, but when some one team has 9 games played by this point in the season, while the rest have 4 something doesn't seem right.

[BreakersFan]

That was the first thing that struck me as odd about the IBL. It seems like very few teams played the same amount of games. Some teams have barely any home games. I've never gotten a straight answer out of the IBL Commish (well no answer) or an answer out of the new owner of the Saskatoon team, why this scheduling imbalance occurs. If teams in the same division played the same amount of games, then I'd understand, but when some one team has 9 games played by this point in the season, while the rest have 4 something doesn't seem right.

The unbalanced schedule is a result of the cluster scheduling formula they use. I agree that it makes the league standings look weird. And a couple of teams (Seattle) are basically road teams to fill schedules. It's too bad that the unbalanced schedule makes the league look amateurish - otherwise it looks more legit than either the WBA or USBL.

The league did take over Lansing last year so that it would complete the season. Don't know why it didn't do the same in Macomb County.

I think the league is coming to a crossroads and needs to decide what it wants to be - a semi-pro entertainment league playing in high schools or a legitimate spring league playing in small arenas - the lack of leadership in the USBL gives the IBL a great opportunity....

[Shootmaster_44]

The unbalanced schedule is a result of the cluster scheduling formula they use. I agree that it makes the league standings look weird. And a couple of teams (Seattle) are basically road teams to fill schedules. It's too bad that the unbalanced schedule makes the league look amateurish - otherwise it looks more legit than either the WBA or USBL.

The league did take over Lansing last year so that it would complete the season. Don't know why it didn't do the same in Macomb County.

I think the league is coming to a crossroads and needs to decide what it wants to be - a semi-pro entertainment league playing in high schools or a legitimate spring league playing in small arenas - the lack of leadership in the USBL gives the IBL a great opportunity....

The cluster scheduling would make sense, if all teams in a division played an equal amount of games. The problem is they don't. That's where the problem lies.

However, since the USBL is in shambles, its time to become a full fledged pro league with the exposure of the WBL. I use the WBL as my standard as that's the best run pro summer basketball league, I've seen. Looking through the media guides I picked up at Storm games all those years ago, it appeared that the WBL brought in the best talent available. Many of those players were Euros who came home for the summer. They had a national TV deal on Sportschannel America and the forerunner to Global in Canada. None of the teams played in high schools, middle schools or the like. They even managed to bring in touring teams (not that they may have been top Euro teams) from overseas. This is what the IBL should become, not a semi-pro league that seems one or two steps above a senior men's league.

I agree that travel is a major concern and the cluster system works, but each division needs to play an equal amount of games. As well, road-only teams need to go. Having a team in "Seattle" or "Las Vegas" only works if they play more than four games in that city. The league should either force the team to play its home schedule or force them to move to other cities. I'm excited about the new Saskatoon team, but at the same time I'm hoping this league doesn't look small-time compared to what we used to have here.

[Pounder]

This is still a patchwork league, testing a couple big arenas while having to settle elsewhere. Some of that is ownership, some of that is management. It's still desperate, it's something that isn't going to change easily. I think it's a form of the "if you build it, they will come" thinking that's been disproven.

Still, after seeing the game in Eugene, a couple things come to mind:

The more players like Eugene's Solomon Yearby who are giving everyone within reach a hug/chest thump after the game, the more this validates a "small is beautiful" concept.

Games I really want to see: Central Oregon and Lewis County... maybe Salem as well. Maybe this is meant to work in smaller towns, county fairgrounds buildings, Christian outreach (and, heck, I'm agnostic), et cetera. Maybe this isn't enough of a bus league.

Then, maybe, I should see Everett and see if this is going to work in the hockey arenas that have gone up around here. Everett, Kennewick, the one coming up in Wenatchee... problem is that there aren't enough of those for the IBL to maintain the bus league concept. Another problem is that I'm purposefully avoiding Spokane for good reason, and that reason be Gonzaga... I staunchly oppose the concept that people are so turned off by the majors that they'll buy into minor league sports by the truckloads, unless your marketing budget is insane AND/OR you have ideas the majors didn't think of AND won't soon implement.

Just summarizing- I think there's at least two directions to go that either increases the scale and risk OR decreases the scale in untapped markets (OK, there's still risk). I'm on the fence on this call, and wish for more evidence that I won't have time to gather this year.

[AConcernedCitizen]

Got 1,700 to their first home game. Call that what you want, but it's something almost every ABA team would die to have. And the club has no website, nothing.

Anyone else hear about attendances for other clubs?

[BruceB]

the Lewis County (WA) Raptors had about 100 people at their opening night game at Centralia College, then another 100 or so the following night at Morton High School. I don't expect it to get any better.

As someone who has worked in both sports PR and the media for over 20 years, I can say with some certainty that the Raptors are not a well-run franchise. At this point, I'll be surprised if they make it past this season. The stories I could tell...

I still think the IBL is a good business model for minor league pro basketball, but you have to have the right people owning the teams (something I've said for years on OSC's message boards). That does not appear to be the case in Lewis County. Charging $8 a ticket for a low minor league team, and then expecting people to just fill the gym because the team exists doesn't cut it...even in small markets like this one. You have to give people a reason to WANT to come, and that's not happening here.

[Pounder]

I was told that there were 700 to 800 in Eugene on opening night... including a lot of U. of Oregon fans who were there to cheer on Adam Zahn, who had just played his senior season as a Duck.

I was there the next night. 300 would be generous, 200 would be stingy.

I originally said their place (which is Northwest Christian College's Morse Events Center) held 500. It's 1,000. It's handy for the small concept, but will never be anything bigger. They could do something on a CBA scale at the Lane County Fairgrounds, but with the attention on Oregon in the media during the winter, I don't see that working. It's possible that the spring schedule is a saving grace for this team. After all, if it wasn't for a buyer (apparently from Santa Barbara, BTW), the Chargers wouldn't even be around this year.

Centralia doesn't sound too encouraging. Yikes!

[AConcernedCitizen]

If you have a good product on the day/evening of the game (which includes good music and entertainment and not just the game) then starting out with crowds of 500 is actually excellent, I believe.

The short season is also a very good idea; though I am not sure if the games are packed too tightly together. 2 games a week (one home and one away) are a good mix.

This league does seem to have a clue from the front office. It does seem to struggle between recognizing that smaller markets are better than having places like Las Vegas in your system.

[CentralOregonFan]

The Hotshots played Salem last night at Redmond High School (home of UO's Marty Leunen) and about 950 showed up. Redmond is 17 miles away from the major town/city that the Hotshots play in. 950 is up from an average of 140 per game last seaon. The key to this league is marketing...period. People in a small market want the product, but when/where is the game?! I personally feel that an average attendance of 1,000 people is a great success; when you do the numbers, the break even point is basically 500 paid fans per game.

Salem is 5-0 and beat the Hotshots, who do to an ownership takeover just 2 months ago, set back their schedule to get sponsors, season ticket holders, staff, and concrete roster in place. For their first game, playing an undefeated team, being down by 6 with 4 minutes left, I thought they played pretty well.

The schedule difficulties are common for minor league basketball combined with a relatively new league with increasing teams...

I like the brand of basketball that creates a high entertainment factor. The contests, prize giveaways, and positive atmosphere make for a great, sellable product.

[acekicker]

Anybody have any thoughts on the only 3 undefeated teams left.
Salem 5-0 Ranked #21 (massey ratings)
Las Vegas 4-0 Ranked #6
Elkhart 5-0 Ranked #7

[Douglas]

Anyone else hear about attendances for other clubs?

The Elkhart Express averaged around 2500-2800 last year, I believe. I can't find any exact, "authoritative", figures or sources at the moment, though I did find the following from this very site (from last year):

"The 12-2 Express are leading the IBL in average attendance at over 2,700 fans per game-including nearly 3,600 versus Columbus on May 6." (From the "IBL news and notes, dated 05/23/06 - International Basketball League (IBL)", on Our Sports Central.)

I do know that this season's opening game for the Express, at home, had 5444 (or right in there, give or take a few stragglers) in attendance. (One of the main reasons for this high figure is that 7'9" Sun Ming Ming was playing, and the local papers had several articles mentioning this fact, several days prior to the game.) Their most recent game, on a Saturday night at home, had something like 2370 in attendance. About average, to maybe a bit below average, for Elkhart, I think. Perhaps the fact that the Chicago Bulls were playing against the Miami Heat in the first game of their playoff series, and that this game was being televised locally (it probably ended right around the time the Express game would have started), had an impact on attendance.

Anyway, it seems to me, from the bits and pieces of news I've culled this year so far, that the Elkhart Express are probably again averaging right around 2500-2800 in attendance (not counting the unusually high first-game figure). There has been serious talk of having the Express join the NBDL (I don't know just how serious, but it seems as though it hasn't been mere "pie-in-the-sky" imagination or wishful-thinking). Apparently, the main hindrance is that Elkhart does not have an actual "arena", though the facility they play in seats 7300 or so, and by no means has the "feel" of a "mere" high school gym. Regarding this, there has also seemingly been serious talk in the Elkhart community of building a "legitimate" arena, though I think this has only reached the level of talk - my understanding is that the local leaders rejected approving funding for a feasibility study (or some such thing) of building such an arena.

I have been to a number of the Express games myself, and the games are well-played, professionally presented, and quite fun to watch. From the reactions of the crowds at Elkhart, I'd say I'm not the only one to have this opinion (at least in Elkhart, about the Express).

Hope this wasn't too long and winding, or winded, of a response.

[Douglas]

Anybody have any thoughts on the only 3 undefeated teams left.
Salem 5-0 Ranked #21 (massey ratings)
Las Vegas 4-0 Ranked #6
Elkhart 5-0 Ranked #7
Yes: Boo, boo, and yay.

[patmc16]

The Elkhart Express averaged around 2500-2800 last year, I believe.

They seemed to travel pretty well too. As I recall, Macomb County's game against Elkhart probably had the largest attendance of the season. Many of those were Elkhart fans.

[BruceB]

The Raptors played a home game Friday night against some team called the "Oregon All-Stars." I have no idea who they are, but then, most people here have no idea who won because the Centralia Chronicle had nothing on the game Saturday (no Sunday publication)...no recap, no boxscore, no result, no nothing. I only found the score by reading the IBL website. It'll be interesting to read tomorrow's Chronicle to see if anything runs late, but sometimes you need an actual press release to work from so I'm not holding my breath.

The crickets are chirping.

[AConcernedCitizen]

Just because a result or stats aren't listed in the newspaper doesn't mean people didn't turn up. In fact, what it means is that a sportswriter didn't turn up, wasn't invited or the club hasn't mastered the art of getting the local press to cover the event.

The numbers that I am seeing on here are light years past the ABA or even some D-League numbers.

I'm very curious.

Does anyone know what the Franchise Fee is?

[BruceB]

So then people go to a game even if they don't know whether there's going to BE a game or not? That's faith bordering on religion. My experience is that people are not going to make plans to go to any event if they don't know about it. What does it tell you when no sportswriter shows up to cover the only pro sports team in town? It's not a matter of whether they're invited...if it's news, you cover it. That's journalism. These guys aren't even putting out press releases at all, which isn't exactly "mastering the art of getting the local press to cover the event."

The local media was initially willing to cover the Raptors, but the team has chosen to freeze out the only daily newspaper and the top two local radio stations in the county for reasons known only to them. I did sports PR work for a decade before getting into radio, and I guarantee that if the local media doesn't cover you, you're dead in the water...If you choose to not even TRY getting the local media to cover you, you're dead, period.

[AConcernedCitizen]

Then how are they getting anyone to come to the games at all? Are we talking about the same thing here? Marketing to people is not the same thing as getting a newspaper to cover you. You cannot guarantee the local media will cover you; if you base your marketing plan on that, you're putting your destiny into the hands of others. It's that simple. Do you want the media, sure. Do you need them? They have their own agenda. If you've a supportive local media, then great. If they want to compare your IBL team to an NBA team and say how crap it is by comparison, then I wouldn't bother wanting them to come to my games!

If you lived in Los Angeles, you will see the tiniest amount of print for the LA Galaxy soccer team. And they get 18,000 a game. In 20 pages of sports in the Times, you will see a quarter page at best. Do you think they are relying on the media to put people in the seats?

So cut that down to 5% and that's what the IBL are trying to get so to say without the media you're dead, well...

Don't buy it.

[BruceB]

Okay, if we're talking marketing as opposed to media relations, you make some valid points. However, the Raptors are doing next to nothing in the marketing aspect, either. They DID have some kids' camp where (I think) 35 kids turned out before the season started, but that's pretty much it. No advertising, no promotions, nothing. At least none that I can think of.

Marketing is more than saying, "Here we are...come and watch us," and I'm not seeing even that here. No doubt part of the season you see decent attendance figures in Elkhart and Santa Barbara is that those teams are actively reaching out to people in their communities. Comparing the LA Galaxy with the Lewis County Raptors is an apples-vs-oranges argument. Los Angeles is a little bit larger than Lewis County (population 70,000), and the Raptors don't have a David Beckham on their roster.

The IBL has a very good blueprint in place that gives its franchises a chance to make it financially by not burdening them with heavy travel expenses (which can be a killer) and keeping the scheduling centered on a regional basis. But, as in any sport, you have to have people who know what they're doing running teams and you have to be in markets that will support those teams.

[AConcernedCitizen]

Where is Lewis County?

[AConcernedCitizen]

Does anyone know what the IBL franchise fee is?

[BreakersFan]

Does anyone know what the IBL franchise fee is?

I believe it is something like $23K, which is much higher than it was the first few years of the league. They are learning some lessons.

[Pounder]

Lewis County... mentioned in another thread, but I'll make it quick.

The halfway point between Portland and Seattle is Centralia. That's in Lewis County, and that's where the Raptors are supposedly based. (If they farm out any more games to the REALLY small towns further along, I'll have to change that assessment)

[BruceB]

Pounder pretty much got it right. Lewis County IS midway between Seattle and Portland on the western side, about halfway between Mount Rainier and Mount Saint Helens on the eastern side. Largest county in land size in Washington west of the Cascades, very rural and conservative.

There are about 70,000 people in Lewis County. Centralia, which is the largest town in Lewis County (about 13,000) is 20-25 miles south of Olympia on I-5. The Raptors are based there and play some home games at the local community college gym. However, their home schedule also includes games in Morton (a town of about 1,000 in East Lewis County), Winlock (another town of 1,000 or so south of Centralia) and Oakville (a TINY little town of around 500 that actually sits on the Thurston-Grays Harbor County line not too far from Centralia).

To add to the question about IBL franchise fees, $23K sounds about right, and I think the league gives you a fair amount of time (2 or 3 years?) to pay it off so you can use revenues to help build your team in the interim. As I've said, this league has a really good economic model that gives its teams a chance to survive. If I were to own a minor league basketball team (heaven help us), I'd rather take my chances in the IBL than the others.