Flying Aces Future

[Regulators]

Preeths do you have a feeling of which way the aces are leaning (UIF or NIFL)??

[AllAces]

Let me jump in. Paul feel free to respond as well.

The short is; the best business decision (all things being equal) is to go UIF. However, all things are not equal in getting there. The major hurdle is acquiring the franchise rights from the guy who owns the Red Dogs (previous UIF franchise in Rapid). Unfortunately the guy is demanding a ridiculous amount for his franchise.

His team went 1-13 (average 400 people in the stands) the last season he played and was not able to field a team last year which is why they formed the Aces (old owners) in the NIFL. The Aces were successful because they won games. Now the Dogs owner thinks his franchise is worth more money because the Aces were successful last year. Thus, he expects to be paid a fortune. That will not happen.

Right now there is a stalemate. It would be nice to see the league step in to force a reasonable offer. The Dogs owner doesn't realize that his franchise is only worth what the Aces are willing to pay. There are no other offers out there. And if he can't come to his senses, they could play in the NIFL and his franchise is worthless. Not the best scenario, but the new owners are not stupid enough to be bullied into making someone else rich with their hard work.

So, leaning UIF - but that may not be possible.

[preeths]

AllAces, you said it all. The owner of the Red Dogs, I've heard, has continued paying UIF dues to maintain his membership, thus the league cannot just set up another team there. He owns the territory as far as UIF is concerned.

Really, it makes much more sense for him to sell at whatever he can get from the Aces owners, than to force the team back into the NIFL and compel himself into at least another year of paying dues. After the failure of the Red Dogs and the problems with Howard the Fraud last year, he should be able to see that RC cannot afford another indoor football black eye or the market will be burned on the game for years to come. Then what is his UIF franchise worth? Let's hope this is all just a part of the negotiation process and his stance softens in the coming weeks.

To show just how interested the Aces are in returning to the NIFL, I have been told the team is not sending a rep to the league meetings this weekend.

[Regulators]

So who is the Red Dogs owner?? Maybe we can get a public outcry in Rapid to get him to understand. (write letters to the papers, to him & so forth)

[rams80]

It's Jenter, right?

[preeths]

Yes, it's Dr. George Jenter. You'd think he'd have learned his lesson about the value of his franchise when he tried to sell it on eBay nearly a year ago:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Black-Hills-Red-Dogs-Indoor-football-team-for-sale_W0QQitemZ8721751384QQcategoryZ56080QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If it wasn't worth 100k then, it certainly isn't now. I know he wants to get some money back, but the franchise is only worth what someone else will pay for it, and the fact is that indoor football in Rapid City is down to its last shot, at least for awhile. A community that size can only take so much, and one failed franchise and a con man ripping off people left and right haven't helped. The Aces are very lucky to have a trusted local boy as the franchise's face and local owners behind the scenes.

The Aces don't even need the assets from Jenter, just the UIF rights to play in the city. Jenter will have an asset with zero value if he doesn't play his cards right. Community pressure may help.

[CBlack]

Ive heard rumors that the Aces had their turf repo'd and sold. Is this true? The value of the Red Dogs (in my eyes)= The value of the hardware (Turf, Pads, Helmets)+2 Years league dues.

I realize Doc wants to pay his previous losses off, but maybe its time to sell and run??

[AllAces]

Ive heard rumors that the Aces had their turf repo'd and sold. Is this true? The value of the Red Dogs (in my eyes)= The value of the hardware (Turf, Pads, Helmets)+2 Years league dues.

I realize Doc wants to pay his previous losses off, but maybe its time to sell and run??

Not a rumor. That is fact.

Realize that the new owners never owned the turf. The bank took possession of it after the season was concluded because Howard the Crook didn't pay the loan. The bank authorized the new owners to use the turf until the end of the season for compensation (they charged rent). When the season was over they wanted more money to buy the turf than it cost originally. The new owners were not willing to pay the price. The bank found a buyer and they shipped it out.

Meanwhile the Aces were always going to have to buy turf and equipment either way - either from the bank or another person, because they never owned any. Unfortunately, Jenter's turf is complete crap. Currently there are a lot of options in the country for used indoor football turf.

As for Jenter paying off his losses; that is not a right. People with good business practices make money and those with bad business practices lose money (typically). His business plan sucked and he lost money year after year. That is what made him not field a team last year. The value of his franchise is what he made it.

On the other hand, the Aces did well and look to be successful all on their own. Jenter does not get to bank on the successful business plan of the Aces. They earned that by themselves without any help from him. So, for him to expect to be paid based on the success of the Aces is unreasonable. In the end, his franchise (at best) is worth exactly what the other teams that are expanding into the UIF are worth. He wants more than triple.

Maybe he is being told that the new ownership has people with big bank accounts. But, people with big bank accounts don't get that way by paying three times what something is worth.

As for public pressure, I don't think that would be effective. That would just reinforce to Jenter that the franchise is worth more than it really is. He doesn't need to worry about pleasing the public because he can no longer field a team. Actually since the failure of the Dogs, Jenter has been somewhat of a pariah in the local sports community.

You are right. Sometimes you take what you can get so you don't risk getting nothing. Unfortunately, I don't think his mind works like that.

[CBlack]

What was the attendance like for the Aces last year? I really didn't pay attention to NIFL after the HP Patterson scandal.

Can the Aces average 3000-4000 fans a game?

[Rocky]

If the NIFL can be at all competent, and the Aces luck out with their schedule (no forfeits, a few good teams, a few bad teams) to be a winner on the field, most fans at the games won't care. NIFL, UIF, all they want to see a quality product. The Aces are half-way there by keeping things straight internally. Now, if only the NIFL will keep up their end.

[AllAces]

At the beginning of the season, they averaged 3000 - 4000. After the scandal, it dropped to 1500 - 2000.

What that tells me is that 3000+ average is possible (even probable), because it was done - and with a brand new team. Unfortunately, with all the press coverage of the scandal, a high percentage of the community thought the Aces folded and weren't playing. That was a major cause for the decline.

[AllAces]

If the NIFL can be at all competent, and the Aces luck out with their schedule (no forfeits, a few good teams, a few bad teams) to be a winner on the field, most fans at the games won't care. NIFL, UIF, all they want to see a quality product. The Aces are half-way there by keeping things straight internally. Now, if only the NIFL will keep up their end.

Very true. But, if you had your money on the line, would you gamble on the NIFL to play all the games that are scheduled and keep their word on home field advantage in the playoffs? If those issues come up during the season and affect the Aces, that could be a point of stress that turns off the fans. Rapid fans do not want any stress after last year.

Or, everything could be fine for them and the problems that will undoubtedly come up with the league during the season may not affect them. You can see the gamble. I prefer a sure thing...

[Sykotyk]

That's why I strongly feel that a team that fails to play a season, they lose their rights to a franchise and anybody else can start up a team in that city.

Sykotyk

[Rocky]

I prefer a sure thing...

Heck yeah I'm with you there! :) I'd rather see the Aces over in the UIF with all the other solid former IFL Mountain franchies. (save wyoming) That is the future of football in Rapid City. Hopefully, any further flirtation with the NIFL will be short. A season at most. That limits the f-up potential of the NIFL while keeping options open for a UIF move.

I would think a UIF territory would only be valid IF the owner has the means to field a team. No arena deal, no territory rights. Sure Jenter could own franchise rights in the UIF, but his rights shouldn't be exclusive to a physical region if he can't play.

[CBlack]

as long as he pays for the rights every year, he owns the rights.

What good is a franchise fee if it buys you nothing? If you aren't guarenteed rights to the region no one would pay franchise fees.

[AllAces]

as long as he pays for the rights every year, he owns the rights.

What good is a franchise fee if it buys you nothing? If you aren't guarenteed rights to the region no one would pay franchise fees.

True, but the UIF needs to look at what is good for the UIF. Is it better to have some guy paying monthly dues and not fielding a team? Or, is it better to have a team paying monthly dues and contributing to the strength of the league?

If Jenter would consider accepting fair market value for the franchise, everyone would win. If not, it would be in the best interest of the UIF to take back ownership of the franchise. There are provisions for that in the franchise contract.

[CBlack]

If Jenter would consider accepting fair market value for the franchise, everyone would win. If not, it would be in the best interest of the UIF to take back ownership of the franchise. There are provisions for that in the franchise contract.

Thats exactly what I have saying since day 1.

Maybe someone other than DC needs to get involved in negotiatioins?

[AllAces]

Thats exactly what I have saying since day 1.

Maybe someone other than DC needs to get involved in negotiatioins?

I am not a DC fan. But who else could/would step in??? Maybe he needs some pressure on him as well. Jenter refuses to talk unless DC is in conference call at the time...

DC may be a big part of the problem. I think he is filling Jenter's head with some of these ideas. I think DC's motivation is to show his worth to those who write his paycheck by inflating the value of this franchise. It very may well backfire, though.

[AllTheRage]

The problem is that these teams are not franchises. They are members and as long as Doc Jenter pays his membership fees, he can control his membership and it's exclusivity as long as he wants and there is really nothing DC or the other members can do about it.

The only way the Aces will get in the UIF is to buy Jenter out.

[Sykotyk]

I'm not saying you're given rights to a franchise but then no rights to the territory, but if you do field a team, and then fail to for an entire season, you could keep paying dues in hopes of someday restarting a team, but if someone else comes in and wants to start a team, and the rights holder doesn't want to start a team, or doesn't want to sell their rights, the league should revoke the franchise, since it's nothing more than a piece of paper and not an actual team that he has the rights to.

Sykotyk

[AllAces]

AllTheRage has an interesting point that deserves some research. Since this is a true owner operated league, the franchise mentality might not be appropriate. Even though they use language like "franchise", that may be to simplify issues.

However, even as an association or club; if all the members held a vote and decided to strip another member of his/her membership, I think that would be legitimate - especially for cause. Cause could be something like the member was unable to ensure a team was fielded to promote the overall success of the association.

I disagree that the league has absolutely no recourse for a member once the membership is awarded. There must be language in the agreement that holds individual members accountable to the league. Otherwise, there would be no real way to enforce fines for rules violations and the like.

By the way - Congrats to the Rage on their move. It is a good fit and a logical progression.

[AllAces]

I'm not saying you're given rights to a franchise but then no rights to the territory, but if you do field a team, and then fail to for an entire season, you could keep paying dues in hopes of someday restarting a team, but if someone else comes in and wants to start a team, and the rights holder doesn't want to start a team, or doesn't want to sell their rights, the league should revoke the franchise, since it's nothing more than a piece of paper and not an actual team that he has the rights to.

Sykotyk

The risk to the league is losing a market - exactly like what happened last year. If the Dogs can't field a team, that opens the door for a team to book the arena in a different league (and there a bunch of them out there). That can be permanent. Fortunately, here is an opportunity for the league to fix a problem.

If the Dogs decided to field a team next year and have to compete with the Aces for arena time, who do you think the arena is going with? The team that brought in 400 people on average, or the team who brought 1500 on its worst day (keeping mind they had a 4000 game)? Remember, the arena makes its real money on concession sales...

The UIF could potentially lose this market forever because Jenter thinks that one mystical day someone will give him his fortune for a defunct team with a terrible reputation.

[GoAces]

Why not fold the Aces and rename the Red Dogs to the Aces and stay in the UIF. It's obvious Jenter wants to be involved so he can own the team and Majic can GM/Coach. And Jenter is loaded beyond belief so him wanting his money back is not an issue with him, trust me, I truly think it's just him wanting to be involved with a team. He worked very hard with the Red Dogs...just tough when your team can't win a game. But look at this...the Red Dogs last two QBs both won championships last year in the UIF and NIFL (Terrance Bryant and Chris Dixon)...was it the team or their strategy and gameplan? Magic and Jenter could create something special together. Either way it sounds like football will be back in RC...at least for a final try. With a new arena coming to RC a CBA team and minor league hockey team are also in the works from what I've heard. Good news for sports fans as hockey is growing big time out here and there are still a few of us who remember the Thrillers and their glory days.

[AllAces]

Why not fold the Aces and rename the Red Dogs to the Aces and stay in the UIF. It's obvious Jenter wants to be involved so he can own the team and Majic can GM/Coach. And Jenter is loaded beyond belief so him wanting his money back is not an issue with him, trust me, I truly think it's just him wanting to be involved with a team. He worked very hard with the Red Dogs...just tough when your team can't win a game. But look at this...the Red Dogs last two QBs both won championships last year in the UIF and NIFL (Terrance Bryant and Chris Dixon)...was it the team or their strategy and gameplan? Magic and Jenter could create something special together. Either way it sounds like football will be back in RC...at least for a final try. With a new arena coming to RC a CBA team and minor league hockey team are also in the works from what I've heard. Good news for sports fans as hockey is growing big time out here and there are still a few of us who remember the Thrillers and their glory days.

So, what happens to the investor group that spent more than $120,000 to fund the last half of last season? Do you just say thanks; see you later? I think they have earned the right to own the team.

Jenter and Majic are a match made in hell. Majic quit the Dogs because of their differences. He would not work for him again. Enough said.

Why would the new owners get into bed with Jenter? All he can contribute through his involvement is how to fail at football. Even though he had those great quarterbacks, he was only able to win one game during the last season they played. And, more importantly, only averaged about 400 fans per game. Of course it was strategy and game plan - which was Jenters responsibility, but it was also the team. A quaterback does not make a team. Marginal linemen can't protect him, Poor recievers can't catch his passes, etc...

Don't get me wrong; I don't doubt Jenter's passion and desire to be involved. I just think it is a bad business idea to go back to the guy that failed and expect him make it work. He has already proven himself - and not in a good way.

[AllTheRage]

The reason that Jenter must be involved is that he owns the membership in the UIF and if the team wants to play in the UIF, they have to include him. Regardless if he was a good owner or a bad owner, he owns that membership and to play in the UIF, the team will have to deal with him. In the NIFL,that would not be necessary as was proven last season.

[fwp]

You're right, ATR, but I'm with AllAces.

While Jenter did keep indoor football somewhat alive for a few years by taking over the Red Dogs, last seasons group put so much more into the team and showed what it would take for indoor football to succeed in RC.

It appears that Jenter is willing to put more into keeping a UIF team dormant in RC, in hopes that he can cash in now or later, than he ever put into the Red Dogs to give the team an actual opportunity to be successful under his watch.

If the NIFL does indeed change its spots(still needs to be proven) it appears that the Aces may be just fine there, especially if Jenter is determined to handcuff the team.

[AllAces]

You're right, ATR, but I'm with AllAces.

While Jenter did keep indoor football somewhat alive for a few years by taking over the Red Dogs, last seasons group put so much more into the team and showed what it would take for indoor football to succeed in RC.

It appears that Jenter is willing to put more into keeping a UIF team dormant in RC, in hopes that he can cash in now or later, than he ever put into the Red Dogs to give the team an actual opportunity to be successful under his watch.

If the NIFL does indeed change its spots(still needs to be proven) it appears that the Aces may be just fine there, especially if Jenter is determined to handcuff the team.

Uuugghh. I hate talking about the Aces playing in the NIFL as a good thing. I am sure that is no one's first choice, unless you have never heard of the league.

I think the Aces would be successful in any league that is successful (i.e. plays all the home games, etc...). However, the ideal place to play would be UIF. Sometimes we don't get what we want, though.

Here is the thing - if Jenter being a partner is part of the deal for the UIF, the Aces will not play in the UIF.

But nothing has been signed yet. Until then, anything is possible. I'm keeping hope until an announcement is made. Through all of this, I just want to be in my seat watching football games again. Let's just skip to the season...:p

[Ninthman]

Well said AllAces. I wish you the best of luck and will hold out for our teams to be in same league someday.
As a Billings fan, I will state last year we, Billings fans, had the best, most competitive series of playoff games there ever has been, in any league, in any year.
Billings was treated to 3 Championship games in one playoff season. The Billings Tri city, Billings Rapid City games were the two best fought entreating playoff games you could want to watch. Both competitive to the end of the games. Everyone involved knew they would be that way from watching the 2 games each during the season, actually 3 for Tri Cites, if I remember right.
Followed by the Fayetteville championship game as number 3.
It will be a long time until there is, if there ever is, another playoff stretch like this one.
I whish the best of luck and success to the Aces, there fans, players, coaches and owners. The NIFL is lucky to have them if that is were they play.
I only hope some day soon we are in same league again.
Maybe there will be some way to have a preseason game or exhibition game together again. Or, if we both win, a championships game to decide an intra league champion. A true national Champion, with league barging rights for a year.
Now that would be a step ahead for all indoor football.

[AllAces]

Thanks Ninthman. I too watched all of our matchups with Billings. Every one came down to the last seconds. It was real football. I would have felt just a bit better if we had edged you guys at least once - but I certainly got my money's worth.

I haven't given up hope yet. I think matching up against you guys next year would be worth a lot. I am going to continue to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[phydeaux72]

Here's what I don't get about the UIF and the Rapid City situation. How long does this Jenter guy get to "own" the rights to this market without actually fielding a team there. There has to be a point at which the UIF says "enough is enough". If this guy isn't going to do anything except hold the market hostage, then I think it's in Rapid City's & UIF's best interest to allow the RC to defect and when Jenter challenges them in court, point out the fact that he hasn't done anything nor does he indicate that he has any intentions of doing anything to field a team there. Unless there's more to it that we don't know about, more than likely, the courts will see things in favor of the Flying Aces and the UIF.

[fwp]

Here's what I don't get about the UIF and the Rapid City situation. How long does this Jenter guy get to "own" the rights to this market without actually fielding a team there. There has to be a point at which the UIF says "enough is enough". If this guy isn't going to do anything except hold the market hostage, then I think it's in Rapid City's & UIF's best interest to allow the RC to defect and when Jenter challenges them in court, point out the fact that he hasn't done anything nor does he indicate that he has any intentions of doing anything to field a team there. Unless there's more to it that we don't know about, more than likely, the courts will see things in favor of the Flying Aces and the UIF.

As far as I can tell, he pays his annual dues, and the UIF keeps accepting those dues. It'd be hard for the UIF to boot him if they're accepting his fee.

[AllAces]

www.flyingacesfootball.com/news/?id=5441 (http://www.flyingacesfootball.com/news/?id=5441)