The Rumor Mill!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[MVWarrior57]

I have heard a lot of different rumors about the Marshals. what is going on i have heard that they are going to the AFL2, the NIFL Again ... (why i don't know but anyway), GLIFL, AIFL. Then I hear that they are moving to Indy, what is the deal? IS IT TIME FOR A NEW HEAD COACH? I also heard that they were going to play at the Cincinnati Gardens in 2007?!?!?! I have also heard U.S. Bank Arena, and Wall 2 Wall. Is Wall 2 Wall really going to add a 4000 seat capacity? Why haven't the Marshals been responding to any phone calls? The only person I hear from is Doug Hortman. Did Nick Lachey meet with Doug Hortman and Cincinnati Marshals? I just would like to know what is going on with this Marshal team!

[Minor League Man]

I think they're most likely to go UIF, if any league.

[MVWarrior57]

I think they're most likely to go UIF, if any league.

what makes you say that?

[Minor League Man]

Because rumors have been popping up all over the place that they were going UIF.
Plus I think Cincy would be a good fit for a geographical gap there.

But you do have a point, if Cincy goes af2, the Marshals are OUT! (The city ain't big enough for two viable teams, despite what Jim Terry thinks about Youngstown)

[rams80]

Somehow I don't think the UIF would want to go into a situation that would be potentially unstable. The af2 might, but I'm not as sure that the UIF would go there.

Right now with the Western Niffle 5, Colorado, and Chicago assumed to be coming in, the UIF is looking at 16 teams for next year. Methinks the UIF will call it quits on expansion after that.

[Minor League Man]

I think the UIF will accept as many quality groups as they can within a certain time period.

Remember what the GLIFL says, "It's only overexpansion if the groups are unstable!"

[rams80]

Well, the gist of my point would be they might not like the stability of Cincinnati.

Now, I could see scenarios where the Marshals are let in if Ohio Valley or Fort Wayne completely fall apart or if Lexington does join "the evil arena empire", but I think the UIF owners would otherwise not let them in.

(Anyway, I've noticed that when people mention Tri-Cities, Wyoming, Billings, Rapid City, and River City, the stuff I see DOES NOT mention Cincinnati being part of the deal; if you're gonna take all 5 in, why keep Cincy separate in all these rumors?)

[Minor League Man]

At that Outlaws/Fever/Flying Aces/Rage/Cavalry meeting, the Billings owner invited Cincinnati.
No word on whether they came.

I'll just shut up here. If the af2 comes in, the Marshals are DEAD.

[rams80]

At that Outlaws/Fever/Flying Aces/Rage/Cavalry meeting, the Billings owner invited Cincinnati.
No word on whether they came.

I'll just shut up here. If the af2 comes in, the Marshals are DEAD.

Message board posts on a couple of other boards I frequent seem to indicate the Marshals (I don't know if they came to the meeting or not.) are not coming in.

No argument here on the team's future if the "Empire" shows up in town. (Of course, the "Empire" failed once before, as well as the AFL in the early 90s, so that should also probably be considered.)

[UIF Storm]

On my regular message board, Cinci has been considered/rumored. But it's not up to the fans' discussions wheter a team comes in or not. I'm sure the UIF is looking at them as an option, but whether they can pass the "rigorous entrance examination" is a different story. In our Inagural season, we kicked the Dayton Warbirds out before the season even started. If they want in, apply and take it from there.

[preeths]

Yes, that's the way it works. Not sure if UIF is salivating over the Cincinnati market, but it's up to an ownership group there to step up and apply if that's what they want to do. At this point, we have no idea about what the Marshals plan to do or if they have even been looking around. Remember, this is indoor football. Just because it makes sense, doesn't mean it happens.

[banannaman]

I think the Marshals can survive in Cincy because they have worked to build up a nice fanbase. Should Af2 come there this is a product that the fans have seen fail, so maybe that will play into their hands.

[Geoff]

Doubt it. 90% of Americans don't know about the differences between Indoor and Arena and most of those don't even care to learn.

[banannaman]

But I am refering to the fact that the Marshals are already there and have built their name up. So those fans that don't care and don't know the difference may just look at the af2 team and decide to stick with the Marshals.

[Minor League Man]

I think they should change their name.
There are no lakes in Los Angeles...
There is no jazz culture in Utah...
THERE ARE NO MARSHALS IN CINCINNATI! (well, the US Marshals maybe, but not the Wild West ones)

[DanTheFan]

There are many things that are being failed to mention. Cincinnati is probably in the BEST situation of ANY market in Indoor Football at the moment. The Marshals have teams and leagues knocking on their doors inviting them to go play there!

We need to look at the leagues that can utilize Cincinnati, and currently the Marshals can play in ANY Indoor Football league that they want too...

(Leagues listed in alphabetical order)
AF2 - Now, for Cincinnati's size; 350,000 is a great populous to present your product to. In fact, a few seasons at af2 and then the move to the AFL. When Cincinnati first played in the af2, we were talking about a team that never had its ducks in a row. A team that folded only a few months short of the start of the season. Now a much stronger af2, that has seen the full-turn of league management under Jerry Kurz, can help develop a viable product for the city. With a gap created in the af2's north eastern market between Davenport and (now) Youngstown, Cincinnati will make a nice fit. Include into the mix Louisville, and the (pending league meetings and financials) Lexington, the marshals could fit in perfectly. It's just too bad that the current individuals behind the Marshals can't come up with $10-million in assets including $2-million liquid.

AIFL - With a team just up I-75 in Troy leaving the AIFL, Andrew Haines may want to fill the gap that has been created, although he also owns the lease rights to Hara Arena (I will bring this back up later.), Dayton's old dump where the Skyhawks played. If Haines puts a team in Hara, he may also want Cincinnati, but might not. Its common knowledge Haines will pick-up any team available, so we could see a team in Dayton in the AIFL as well as Cincinnati. The AIFL still maintains the Canton team in Ohio, and with teams in Indiana, Kentucky and Illinois all possible, travel could be short. But with all of the uncertainties in the AIFL, this is a dangerous possibility.

GLIFL - Opportunities galore, travel costs down and low franchise fees, that allow for more capital to be spent where it needs to be properly spent. With a team in Marion, Troy, Steubenville and in Wooster County, Cincinnati would have plenty of local teams to play, keeping travel costs as low as possible, as well as building rivalries with opponents.

NIFL - Team's current league; unfortunately the league has fellow apart, and an off-season restructuring will make it nearly impossible to resurrect the league in 2007.

PIFL - Nearly a nonsense league, more a league on paper than anything else. Publicly courting teams, but under the rules of the PIFL, unless there are 3-5 other teams in the current mapped out "territory" this will not be a solution.

UIF - With the possibility of Lexington joining the af2, Cincinnati moving into fill the current void that was created when Jeff Jodway was forcibly removed from the UIF, would allow the Marshals to fit in well with the UIF. Travel costs should be a concern, but having a team in Fort Wayne and Wheeling (Ohio Valley) and possibly Lexington, all lead to factors that would make a nice fit.

WIFL - With the detraction of Huntington, the World Indoor Football League has lost its gateway to the north. Now there's no reason for the Marshals to consider jumping to the WIFL

With all of Cincinnati’s opportunities laid out across the table, we have to reflect and in my opinion the Marshal franchise has very few options, and even a few Plan B options. With the af2, you have to question; whether the af2 wants the Marshals or not? Now if the af2 wants the marshals we wouldn’t have to wonder why the Marshals were vacated from US Bank Arena and are tentatively scheduled to play at Cincinnati Gardens in 2007. There’s a possibility that the af2 could be bringing in their own team, leaving the Marshals short in town. However, being that Cincinnati is in a great area with plenty of arenas, they can move to Dayton; where there are two arenas available (Including Haines’s lease on Hara, which could be a carrot dangling.). There are plenty of places in Indiana that aren’t far away either.

In reality, if the owners in Cincinnati are logical (Insert wise-crack about how illogical Indoor Football is.), there are only two options for them IF the af2 doesn’t target Cincinnati; GLIFL and UIF. With logic on their side, the GLIFL is the ideal league, with travel and franchise fees very low. The UIF can still work, but with outrageous franchise fees (compared to the GLIFL) and higher traveling costs, I’d think twice. Although, the extra two home games that the Marshals would get in the UIF could be a major trump.

But all in all, the af2 is a the wildcard that if Cincinnati doesn’t have an af2 or even an AFL team in place by 2007, there is always the chance for 2008 or beyond, and moving the franchise or folding can not be ruled out. But if I were the owner, I think with money in mind before anything else.

[Reichert]

The Marshals have the most options on the table of any NIFL team as so elequently noted above. Therefore, it could take a relatively long period of time for them to decide their future. I'm not sure in this case if the af2 is going to want to send in a new ownership group to "claim" the market...if they wanted to do this they probably would have already. The ideal situation for af2 would be for them to gain the Marshals ownership group into the fold because it is a solid group and the current team is run relatively well.

[preeths]

I'm not so sure all is that rosy for the Marshals. For all intents and purposes, it looks as if they failed to secure their venue for their playoff game against Osceola. How many leagues are actually courting them?

[rams80]

There are many things that are being failed to mention. Cincinnati is probably in the BEST situation of ANY market in Indoor Football at the moment. The Marshals have teams and leagues knocking on their doors inviting them to go play there!

We need to look at the leagues that can utilize Cincinnati, and currently the Marshals can play in ANY Indoor Football league that they want too...

(Leagues listed in alphabetical order)
AF2 - Now, for Cincinnati's size; 350,000 is a great populous to present your product to. In fact, a few seasons at af2 and then the move to the AFL. When Cincinnati first played in the af2, we were talking about a team that never had its ducks in a row. A team that folded only a few months short of the start of the season. Now a much stronger af2, that has seen the full-turn of league management under Jerry Kurz, can help develop a viable product for the city. With a gap created in the af2's north eastern market between Davenport and (now) Youngstown, Cincinnati will make a nice fit. Include into the mix Louisville, and the (pending league meetings and financials) Lexington, the marshals could fit in perfectly. It's just too bad that the current individuals behind the Marshals can't come up with $10-million in assets including $2-million liquid.



Has Lexington officially applied to join the Empire? (I have little doubt that they would be rubber-stamped in if that is the case.)

[DanTheFan]

Has Lexington officially applied to join the Empire? (I have little doubt that they would be rubber-stamped in if that is the case.)I have 3-CONFIRMED sources that they will be meeting this weekend with Kurz and crew in San Juan.

What makes the af2 the Evil Empire? This league has made strides since Jerry Kurz was put into power. Granted, its not my favorite league; but in the last 3-4 seasons there has been less and less bad things and bush-league things happen in the af2, than in any other Indoor Football league.

[Minor League Man]

I actually like the idea of Lexington in the af2.

Good rivalry with Louisville among other things.

[rams80]

I have 3-CONFIRMED sources that they will be meeting this weekend with Kurz and crew in San Juan.

What makes the af2 the Evil Empire? This league has made strides since Jerry Kurz was put into power. Granted, its not my favorite league; but in the last 3-4 seasons there has been less and less bad things and bush-league things happen in the af2, than in any other Indoor Football league.

Being so responsive to their fans' desires that they play the bleeping championship game hundreds of miles from anyone who cares/has heard of the league?
Moving in to every market in the country in a monopolistic effort to kill every other league in the country?
Mounting on an ABA-esque expansion that seems only intended to make up for financial shortfalls in the AFL, because said league has run out of people with $20 million to set on fire?
Relieving owners of their money with the promises that their smaller markets can compete/survive in a league that only enforces a salary cap on paper and has a national plus footprint?

The monopolistic thing is the reason reason the Empire is the Empire. Do you honestly expect me to believe the Empire would be interested in some of these markets if they weren't already occupied?

[preeths]

So you have a problem with af2's size, the fact it only lost one team last year while adding several, or that its teams pay all their players and coaches? af2 has done well for itself the last couple of years. That should be cause for celebration from football fans, and it should be held out as an example of how things can be done on this level to some of the indoor leagues.

If a current indoor team is taking care of its business with its arena, fans and sponsors, it has nothing to fear from af2. First, af2 is hardly a monopoly with more indoor leagues and teams on the map than ever before. Second, any comparison to the ABA is misleading. Say what you want about its size, but af2 has never missed a game in its history, while the ABA cancelled more than half of its games last year. This af2 bashing looks like nothing more than envy from a handful of misguided indoor fans who wish their leagues were run as well. Some are, and in the near future, we hope all will be. There is more than enough room for both af2 and several indoor leagues who do it right.

[rams80]

So how many are dying this year?...

Any signs of life at all from BSC?
Amarillo's old owners got rid of team, how 'bout we mention that to all these prospective small market owners...
How's Memphis doing?
Everett was a minor disaster.
Shoot, if Green Bay broke even this year, it's probably because they made the championship game (Although the plane tickets to Puerto Rico gotta hurt).

If the Empire was truly this benign organization, they wouldn't "bleep" around in other team's markets and they wouldn't keep reporters in said market on their payroll.

Also said tampering would probably also classify as "monopolistic practices" in most courts.

[nksports]

Wichita's strongest teams came in af2. Had there not been arena issues arisen when the last Stealth owner went belly up, the Stealth would still be here, and a lot of chaos would have been avoided.
Yes af2 has the most stringent capitzliation rules (short of the AFL itself), but teams finish the season.

And by the way, I take exception to Hara Arena being called a dump. Some of the best days of my youth were spent there following the old Gems. It has character. There's not a bad seat in the house there. And the Cincy Gardens ain't too bad either.
I doubt Haines has anything at Hara that will stand up (see "You've Been Served" on the AIFL threads).
Most of these contracts are on a year-to-year basis and the first one in with a contract (with the most money up front) usually gets the building. The better you draw (and the more beer and popcorn you sell), the more likely building management will favor you.
You don't pay your rent and no contract -- that's how the af2 has put a few of these markets in play.
I doubt Nutter Center will ever allow an indoor team back in unless Wright State starts intercollegiate indoor football (hey, that might work! Here's the conference -- Wright State at Nutter Center, Dayton at Hara Arena, Miami at Goggin Ice Center, Ohio State at Value City Arena and Bowling Green State at BGSU Ice Arena. Run it like a club sport to avoid NCAA interference. Open tryouts to any student with a 2.5 grade-point average or better who is passing all of his classes and not a member of the varsity team. The season begins at the end of the college hockey season (so the buildings would be open) and ends in late May. Teams coached by three varsity assistants with top players given a chance to walk on to their varsity teams. 25 player limit. But I digress).

[CBlack]

Very untrue that current strorng teams have nothing to fear from AF2. I know for a fact that AFL and AF2 have called arenas and made outrageous promises to current indoor arenas to attempt to destroy their contracts with current teams.

They have promised hopes to move these small market teams into AFL in 3-5 years if they sign with AF2 today. Complete B.S. meant only to harm a strong indoor market.

[preeths]

Very untrue that current strorng teams have nothing to fear from AF2. I know for a fact that AFL and AF2 have called arenas and made outrageous promises to current indoor arenas to attempt to destroy their contracts with current teams.

That's my point. If the current team is taking care of business, their arena is not going to ditch their strong current customer for another, which may or may not succeed (i.e they have nothing to fear). These arena managers aren't idiots. They can look up average league attendance, nearby teams, etc. That's their job. They do their research because they know they can be held accountable when they don't.

Leagues can sniff around all they want. Do you know how many indoor leagues have fought over arenas? We saw it in multiple places last year between the AIFL and NIFL and this month in Columbus, GA with the AIFL and WIFL. Yes, af2 is trying to expand and looking at some current indoor markets in which to do it. Many of the indoor leagues are also talking to arenas which belong to other leagues' teams. That's the business right now.

[preeths]

So how many are dying this year?...

Any signs of life at all from BSC?
Amarillo's old owners got rid of team, how 'bout we mention that to all these prospective small market owners...
How's Memphis doing?
Everett was a minor disaster.
Shoot, if Green Bay broke even this year, it's probably because they made the championship game (Although the plane tickets to Puerto Rico gotta hurt).

Will some af2 teams fail this year? Maybe. This is minor league sports. It happens. So your evidence that af2 is failing is that one group sold their team (meaning they found an interested buyer, BTW) and you mention a couple of teams which struggled? To what are you comparing af2, the NFL? For a minor league, af2 is doing very well.

If Green Bay is an example of a struggling franchise, I know a lot of teams that want to struggle. The Blizzard turned the franchise around this season, on and off the field. They had two crowds in excess of 7,000, five of more than 6,000 and their low for the year was 4,324. With two weeks to sell, their playoff game drew 6,005. GB might be the comeback story of the year.

If the Empire was truly this benign organization, they wouldn't "bleep" around in other team's markets and they wouldn't keep reporters in said market on their payroll.

Also said tampering would probably also classify as "monopolistic practices" in most courts.

Which reporters do they have on their payroll? That's a pretty hefty allegation, and I expect to see it backed up.

As for looking into other teams' markets, the indoor leagues do it, too. See my other post in this thread. This sport is still in a land grab phase. Again, af2 is no monopoly. There are more indoor leagues and teams than ever before. Only the poorly run indoor teams have anything to fear from af2.

[rams80]

If Green Bay is an example of a struggling franchise, I know a lot of teams that want to struggle. The Blizzard turned the franchise around this season, on and off the field. They had two crowds in excess of 7,000, five of more than 6,000 and their low for the year was 4,324. With two weeks to sell, their playoff game drew 6,005. GB might be the comeback story of the year.


Which comes after the owners burned a lot of money to get the team, cut ticket prices by a third, and took over a team that was losing money like a sieve under last year's "beneficial" system. I literally did crunch the numbers there, and they had to sell out every game and make a deep playoff run to have a prayer of breaking even.

Which reporters do they have on their payroll? That's a pretty hefty allegation, and I expect to see it backed up.


I don't have a letter from Kurz saying "We're paying the following guys", so you can ignore that claim if you want, but Peoria's local hack was either doing a very lousy job of being an unbiased reporter or was getting his paycheck supplemented in other ways.

Anyway, the fact of the matter is that I can't think of one instance where you see an expansion as big as the Empire's that hasn't resulted in disaster of one form or another. Maybe they'll be the exception (although I honestly doubt it.) Personally, I think that the AFL and maybe the Empire too need one last big payday before the patent expires and because the AFL isn't getting a $20 million payday this year (Guess this is what happens when you can't show your games on Network television.)

[DanTheFan]

Which comes after the owners burned a lot of money to get the team, cut ticket prices by a third, and took over a team that was losing money like a sieve under last year's "beneficial" system. I literally did crunch the numbers there, and they had to sell out every game and make a deep playoff run to have a prayer of breaking even. So are you saying that these owners in Green Bay cut ticket prices, and it's a bad thing? No! It's great to see an owner cut prices, and spend money in other avenues to bring them into the game. And the fact that they didn't make a gazillion dollars doing it, proves that there isn't much money in Indoor and Arena Football. I can count the teams on one hand or less that made a profit this season. Rocky Larsen said it right; "Indoor Football making millionaires out of multi-millionaires for nearly a decade."
I don't have a letter from Kurz saying "We're paying the following guys", so you can ignore that claim if you want, but Peoria's local hack was either doing a very lousy job of being an unbiased reporter or was getting his paycheck supplemented in other ways.Dave Eminian was writing negativity towards the end of Peoria's af2 run; so you've basically aregued yourself out of this one. What about Tennessee Valley's beat writer and radio guy, all he could do was talking up the UIF when the Vipers left; did Kurz bounce his check? But to use a useless arguement like this, shows you have little to any evidence that the af2 is such a bad. You know as well as I do, that Kurz and the league office has never paid any reported to publish a positve article or even a negative article. You're just throwing generalizations to keep your side of this endless arguement going.
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that I can't think of one instance where you see an expansion as big as the Empire's that hasn't resulted in disaster of one form or another. Maybe they'll be the exception (although I honestly doubt it.) Personally, I think that the AFL and maybe the Empire too need one last big payday before the patent expires and because the AFL isn't getting a $20 million payday this year (Guess this is what happens when you can't show your games on Network television.)This isn't the af2 of the old; this is the af2 with Jerry Kurz in charge, he has done wonders for this league that many can't imagine. In 2002 and 2003 the league had some bad turnover numbers, and has learned from those past mistakes of rapid expansion with out the owners and pocketbooks to do it. Any league can continue to expand as long as their are viable markets that want the product, and owners who are willing to foot the bill. Money is not made over night, get-rich-quick schemes do not work, and are far from working in Indoor and Arena Football.

[preeths]

DTF, you beat me to it. You can say what you want about Eminian, but to claim he was on af2's payroll is preposterous, if not slanderous toward someone who could be fired for it.

Thus far, af2 looks like a much more stable league under Kurz. We also have to remember how af2 expands. They don't wait for the season to finish, then scramble to see where they're going next. They've been talking to potential team owners for months, if not years. It is still a minor league and will have its share of issues, but they make sure they play every game, keeping their promise to fans and sponsors, and that's the most important thing.

[Freedom]

I can't stand AF2 ball, but that has more to do with the style of play. As far as being well run, (like them or hate them) AF2 has done well over the last couple years.

[ronaldoswalt]

They Have A Good Product --- Not Like Some Other Leagues

[tony-o]

I like the af2. Some people here villainize it though. It does seem like they go after many markets with teams in it, but I don't understand why people were mad about them going after Boise or Albuquerque.

[rams80]

Maybe I should lay off on the Empire a little. I mean if I were in one of the 23 million households that could actually get this "Nationally Televised" game, I too would think this league is a joke. What with the masses of empty seats, the dasher boards that fall off with every play, the decrepit library-like atmosphere etc. I'm sure all their new owners are currently wondering if they can get out now...

[tony-o]

As I said, a lot of people villainize this league. You give them crap about how much TV coverage they get, when these other leagues don't get any at all.

[preeths]

Yawn, are you done with the bashing yet? You're not winning any converts. You hate af2. We get it.

[Malepig]

I have 3-CONFIRMED sources that they will be meeting this weekend with Kurz and crew in San Juan.

What makes the af2 the Evil Empire?

Make that 4 sources and mine was an eyewitness from San Juan about Cincy giving a presentation to the af2. About the "EMPIRE" comments keep them coming. All you are doing is telling team owners this is the league to join because they must be doing something right. As far as this years arenacup, I was there and saw the problems personally. I won't even deny it. "IF(I would say 75% yes) the cup is in San Juan next year then there are things that must change and will change down there. But at least the af2 tried and do you see any of the indoor leagues getting an invite to San Juan? No because they aren't big enough or have too many problems.

[rams80]

Or because they aren't stupid enough to play their showcase event in a third world country 100s of miles away from their fanbases.

[Minor League Man]

Or because they aren't stupid enough to play their showcase event in a third world country 100s of miles away from their fanbases.
rams80, you are living proof that stupidity has no limit.
Puerto Rico isn't a country. It's a US commonwealth.
And stop with the Evil Empire blah blah blah blah blah crap you always trot out.
THE af2 MAY HAVE MADE A HUGE MISTAKE, BUT THEY'LL LEARN FROM IT, THEY'RE NOT EVIL!

Mr. Reeths, would you please lock this thread?

[rams80]

I know they're a US posession.

I also know that the local economy is about as strong as a third world country-hence that line.

And I'm not laying off the Empire stuff.

[Minor League Man]

I know they're a US posession.

I also know that the local economy is about as strong as a third world country-hence that line.

And I'm not laying off the Empire stuff.

Look, preeths is getting annoyed by this too. So lay off while you still have your account.

[Geoff]

They're not a commonwealth, they're a territory with commonwealth status. There are four true common wealthes in the US: Kentucky, Virginia, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_%28United_States%29

[Minor League Man]

They're not a commonwealth, they're a territory with commonwealth status. There are four true common wealthes in the US: Kentucky, Virginia, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_%28United_States%29
I always thought they were states.

But seriously, rams80 needs to stop bashing the af2.

Mr. Reeths doesn't like it either

[rams80]

Does he not like it or does Jerry Kurz not like it?

[Minor League Man]

Does he not like it or does Jerry Kurz not like it?
Let me quote a few posts from Mr. Reeths:

Quote 1:

So you have a problem with af2's size, the fact it only lost one team last year while adding several, or that its teams pay all their players and coaches? af2 has done well for itself the last couple of years. That should be cause for celebration from football fans, and it should be held out as an example of how things can be done on this level to some of the indoor leagues.

If a current indoor team is taking care of its business with its arena, fans and sponsors, it has nothing to fear from af2. First, af2 is hardly a monopoly with more indoor leagues and teams on the map than ever before. Second, any comparison to the ABA is misleading. Say what you want about its size, but af2 has never missed a game in its history, while the ABA cancelled more than half of its games last year. This af2 bashing looks like nothing more than envy from a handful of misguided indoor fans who wish their leagues were run as well. Some are, and in the near future, we hope all will be. There is more than enough room for both af2 and several indoor leagues who do it right.

Quote 2:

Which reporters do they have on their payroll? That's a pretty hefty allegation, and I expect to see it backed up.

As for looking into other teams' markets, the indoor leagues do it, too. See my other post in this thread. This sport is still in a land grab phase. Again, af2 is no monopoly. There are more indoor leagues and teams than ever before. Only the poorly run indoor teams have anything to fear from af2.

Quote 3:

DTF, you beat me to it. You can say what you want about Eminian, but to claim he was on af2's payroll is preposterous, if not slanderous toward someone who could be fired for it.

Thus far, af2 looks like a much more stable league under Kurz. We also have to remember how af2 expands. They don't wait for the season to finish, then scramble to see where they're going next. They've been talking to potential team owners for months, if not years. It is still a minor league and will have its share of issues, but they make sure they play every game, keeping their promise to fans and sponsors, and that's the most important thing.

Quote 4:

Yawn, are you done with the bashing yet? You're not winning any converts. You hate af2. We get it.


Does that sound like Mr. Reeths likes af2. Get over it, troll.

[preeths]

No one has to stop voicing an opinion simply because I don't agree with it. I always prefer arguments based on reason, rather than vendettas, but as long as people obey the board rules they should feel free to continue posting.

[Reichert]

No one has to stop voicing an opinion simply because I don't agree with it. I always prefer arguments based on reason, rather than vendettas, but as long as people obey the board rules they should feel free to continue posting.

And I'll voice my opinion...people need to lay off the af2. Until your favorite league reaches the stability and success of that league all of it is jealousy or anger at them being successful. They are the kings of the mountain for now (something the NIFL had a chance at being but CS pissed it away royally), and while someone could knock them off nobody has yet.

There is a reason Katy is looking at either af2 or no move at all, and that's that af2 has alot of appeal as a product and the stability they offer (no disastrous cancellations of home games) outweighs the extra costs in alot of teams' minds.

[fwp]

And I disagree with you. I'm probably more aligned with rams80's feelings.

True, af2 hasn't lost as many teams over the last few years as they had over the previous years, but that's probably just a lull in the storm. I don't think any league has gone through and killed off as many football teams as af2 has in its existence, and that's quite a challenge with what the indoor leagues have done recently.

While not at the level of indoor football, I would debate the definition of af2 not losing regular season games. If fans have paid their season ticket money, if the fans have the schedule in their hands, along with time for the wife to nix someone's idea for he and his son to follow his team to the game in Hawaii, only to have the team fold a few weeks before kickoff, then in my opinion, they've lost regular season games.

Yes, the indoor leagues need to straighten up their act. They have the better game, but there needs to be a long term healing in a clean manner. But they have the better product at an affordable, fan friendly price. I've been down on the UIF, for different reasons, but they have a much better product than the af2's "offense now, offense all the time" game.

The predatory moves that the af2 seems to currently be practicing should be worrisome to indoor football fans, real fans. I wonder what the shelf life is for cities that have had af2 teams?

[preeths]

And I disagree with you. I'm probably more aligned with rams80's feelings.

True, af2 hasn't lost as many teams over the last few years as they had over the previous years, but that's probably just a lull in the storm. I don't think any league has gone through and killed off as many football teams as af2 has in its existence, and that's quite a challenge with what the indoor leagues have done recently.

This is simply not true. To use it as our basis of comparison, the NIFL has had far more failed teams both in raw numbers and as a percentage of its teams. Not content with failing once in a market, the NIFL has even double-dipped some places with its failures (Austin, Knoxville, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale) and allowed the same owner to fail in multiple locations. Plus, so many of the NIFL flameouts have occurred during the season, leaving broken promises and money owed to sponsors and ticket holders. All af2 teams have completed their seasons, enabling them to fulfill their obligations to the vast majority of sponsors and ticket holders.

While not at the level of indoor football, I would debate the definition of af2 not losing regular season games. If fans have paid their season ticket money, if the fans have the schedule in their hands, along with time for the wife to nix someone's idea for he and his son to follow his team to the game in Hawaii, only to have the team fold a few weeks before kickoff, then in my opinion, they've lost regular season games.

That's a very debatable argument, and even allowing it, how many times has that happened in the NIFL? af2 still wins by a longshot given this new stringent criteria. You need to talk to the team owner who made the decision, late, to not field his af2 team in Lincoln, after telling the league he would be back. I believe it was partially due to the meltdown in his main business, but he made the choice. He thought he could make a better go of it as the silent partner of an indoor team, and it appears he was wrong. I know, I talked with him after he made the decision but before he told af2.

All minor leagues will have teams fail. We must take that as a given. I think most of us would agree that there are occassions when leagues need to be held accountable for team failures, but that's when there is an institutional problem that is leading to the failure. Giving teams away to anyone who can foot the bill for an expansion team, and even some who can't, is an institutional problem. Having a veteran owner back out weeks before the season starts is not.

Yes, the indoor leagues need to straighten up their act. They have the better game, but there needs to be a long term healing in a clean manner. But they have the better product at an affordable, fan friendly price. I've been down on the UIF, for different reasons, but they have a much better product than the af2's "offense now, offense all the time" game.

The predatory moves that the af2 seems to currently be practicing should be worrisome to indoor football fans, real fans. I wonder what the shelf life is for cities that have had af2 teams?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some like the indoor game better, others the arena. Still others couldn't care less as long as they have football. I'd bet 90 percent of football fans belong to the latter group.

And I have to draw attention once again to the fact that af2 is not the only league to sniff around an indoor team's market. The indoor leagues do it to each other as well! That's a sympton of the problem of how poorly run some indoor teams have been.

This is not to get down on the indoor leagues. We've used the NIFL as a basis of comparison here because they are the longest running indoor league, but UIF, the GLIFL and the IFL all completed their seasons with no cancelled games this season. We may have seen the beginning of a new day for the indoor leagues.

[Reichert]

There are numerous rumors running around on the Intense board of two Texas teams in San Juan to present for an owners meeting of af2. One of those is supposedly a NIFL team: The Katy Copperheads. The other is the Laredo Lobos of the IFL.

There are purportedly two other markets af2 has received applications from: Corpus Christi and Lubbock. No word if the current owners of those IFL teams is behind those applications.

We should see very soon how this shakes out and if these rumors wind up being true or just another round of Internet gossip.

[preeths]

I can say with near certainty that was not the Hammerheads ownership group at the af2 meetings. They are as firmly behind the IFL as any group can be. Remember Lubbock never left the NIFL again. In fact, they were behind the NIFL's lawsuit against the IFL. If they're still interested in fielding a football team, it would not have been in the IFL.

[hawk174md]

Doubt it. 90% of Americans don't know about the differences between Indoor and Arena and most of those don't even care to learn.

You've got a good point there, Geoff. There are some people who think that indoor football, or even arena football, is actually real football.

[AllTheRage]

You've got a good point there, Geoff. There are some people who think that indoor football, or even arena football, is actually real football.

If you don' think it is real football, you haven't been watching the right teams play. It is hybrid football played at warp speed. Great collisions, great plays, diverse plans of attack. You can't ask for much more than that from football. In fact, after watching indoor football, conventional football is slow and boring.

[phydeaux72]

If you don' think it is real football, you haven't been watching the right teams play. It is hybrid football played at warp speed. Great collisions, great plays, diverse plans of attack. You can't ask for much more than that from football. In fact, after watching indoor football, conventional football is slow and boring.

I think "conventional" (or "traditional") was probably the word they meant to use. However, on occassion, I have had to define the term "indoor football" to my peers, seeing that most professional football today is played "indoors." Most people are aware of the term "Arena Football."

[Geoff]

You've got a good point there, Geoff. There are some people who think that indoor football, or even arena football, is actually real football.

That wasn't my point at all. I said that 90% of Americans don't know about the difference between Indoor and Arena and that most don't care. It is very much football. Let's see you get your ass out there and play Iron Man for 60 minutes.

[AllTheRage]

You are right. Most Americans are unaware of what indoor football really is. They think it is akin to championship wrestiling. It is also confusing having to use the term "indoor" football. The indoor game, as played in the NIFL and UIF (RULES) is far superior to the Arena Football League (Rules) and unfortunately, that is the (AFL) game that is the one that is most known.

Also because of the fact that Arena football is a copyrighted trademark, other indoor teams and leagues cannot use it.