2007 Expansion Discussion

[phydeaux72]

Thought I'd try to get a little discussion going on 2007 IFL expansion. Anyone have any ideas?

I think Frisco is almost a lock. Bryan/College Station is talking a stab at it as well (http://www.bcsintensefootball.com). I think there's a good chance that we may see Katy defecting over from the NIFL next season. There's also rumors that Amarillo & Rio Grande Valley would like to hop over to the IFL from Arena2. Amarillo just draw the attendance needed to be successful in that league. And I personally know for a fact that RGV's travel costs are astronomical.

Personally, the BSC team I really question. I could see them going one season and then calling it quits. I'm just skeptical of the fact that many people will participate in anything football related outside of Aggies or high school footall. On top of that, BCS loses a big chunk of its population once the school year ends. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

As far as Amarillo and RGV defecting over from Arena2, not sure we'll see that happen any time soon. It's hard to leave Arena2 without going through some kind of legal battle and/or spending a lot of money to get out of their contract. But it could happen I guess.

I think there's about a 99% chance that Katy is a shoe-in for the IFL next season, if they don't end up going Arena2.

[Tennessee Valley Vipers]

Katy has been approved for AF2

[phydeaux72]

Katy has been approved for AF2

And your point is ... ? Frisco is also approved for AF2. It doesn't really mean anything at this point. Until the papers are signed and the league dues are paid, it's open season, no pun intended. I'm sure after the fiasco that they went through in the NIFL this past season, they've explored their options and the AF2 was one of them. They could go AF2. But my bet is they'll be in the IFL next season.

[yellowpages]

AF2 is staking claim to a lot of venues, even those that are currently under contract to other teams in other leagues. The AF2 is also offer (free!) up to three AF2 franchises to current AFL franchises. It is common knowledge (Tri-Cities example) that they are going to the other league's venues in order to lock them up for the future and/or under cut current leases.

Does this sound like a league that has solid growth potential? No, it doesn't and they are desperate enough to conduct business practices that are slightly shady. But, business is business right?

The IFL has some serious competition. I'll leave it at that.

[Tennessee Valley Vipers]

And your point is ... ? .soooooooooo antagonistic. Wonder if preeth will edit THAT!??

[Tennessee Valley Vipers]

AF2 is staking claim to a lot of venues, even those that are currently under contract to other teams in other leagues. The AF2 is also offer (free!) up to three AF2 franchises to current AFL franchises. It is common knowledge (Tri-Cities example) that they are going to the other league's venues in order to lock them up for the future and/or under cut current leases.

Does this sound like a league that has solid growth potential? No, it doesn't and they are desperate enough to conduct business practices that are slightly shady. But, business is business right?

The IFL has some serious competition. I'll leave it at that.it's amazing what the envious will make up.

[yellowpages]

it's amazing what the envious will make up.


Envious of what? I like the AFL. It's not hard for the AF2 to be better then the NIFL or the AIFL. There are semi-pro leagues that are better run then those two. I don't care much for the IFL.

Everything I've stated is factual. Ask the UIF teams. Ask some of the top NIFL teams. Ask markets like Wichita, KS and Lubbock, TX. Call the Utah Blaze owner and ask him how many AF2 teams he's getting for free. He's knee deep in Boise and is making waves in Tri-Cities. What have I made up?

[Freedom]

I'll go with it yellowpages . . .

Af2 made visits to FW, claimed the formation of their own ownership group and tried to secure the arena FW plays in at different times since 03.

[yellowpages]

They are promising these venues AF2 franchises and that the venues would make a lot more money with an AF2 team as a tenant. The AF2 could own indoor football at this level if they would simply make it affordable for owners to operate.

It seems the AF2 is using the AIFL's model of securing the venues first THEN getting the ownership groups together later.

[Tater]

I have a copy of the AF2's franchise costs for 2005-6. There isn't anyone in the world that could convince me that you can earn more money running a team in the AF2 over any indoor league in America. The franchise fee, the monthly dues, and the travel costs are more than double any other league available. That's ridiculous.

[Carrottop2386]

It's stupid to compare af2 to the IFL. IFL has only been in operation for 2 years. Plus there is a difference between arena football and indoor football. This is a thread about expansion teams for the IFL, not why the af2 is so much better.

[Permianman]

The IFL and the AF2 play by the same rules. The only thing missing is the rebound net. The IFL plays a form of arena football not indoor football. I would say that the IFL is probably on pretty good ground after only two years. Every game was played this year. No forfeits no postponed games.

[Malepig]

There are some things about the af2 that are partially true and not at all.

The Utah Blaze did get af2 franchises as part of the deal. Not totally free but close.

Here is how new teams coming to the af2 works, this is public knowledge anyway. An ownership group forms together. The ownership group must have 10 million in assests of which 2 million must be liquid. Once the financials of the ownership group is checked then AND ONLY THEN the city/venue is looked at. It is not venue first.

Now if there is an interested ownership group and an existing team is there from another league will the af2 talk to the arena and explain the benefits? Well we all know the answer is yes. That is nothing but good business.

One more thing, the af2 does look at the other leagues as nothing more than "ankle-biters". The af2 right now is in a position of power to pick and choose and they are. If they ruffle some other leagues feathers but "moving in" to one of their existing cities so be it. It is business.

I hope that helps.

[Reichert]

If Katy has been given clearance for af2, that's a revelation to nearly everyone over on the NIFL boards. Nobody, including the Copperheads' PR guy who posts over there all the time, has remotely made mention of af2 in terms of actually moving forward into it.

That said, I do think Katy would be a great af2 market and I'm sure the AFL folks realize more than most how substantial that market can be. But I think the Copperhead ownership is going over several options right now just as the Billings ownership is. Both teams can go any of several ways. For Billings the options are af2, UIF, and PIFL. For Katy it's af2, IFL, and even the new WIFL.

[phydeaux72]

If Katy has been given clearance for af2, that's a revelation to nearly everyone over on the NIFL boards. Nobody, including the Copperheads' PR guy who posts over there all the time, has remotely made mention of af2 in terms of actually moving forward into it.

That said, I do think Katy would be a great af2 market and I'm sure the AFL folks realize more than most how substantial that market can be. But I think the Copperhead ownership is going over several options right now just as the Billings ownership is. Both teams can go any of several ways. For Billings the options are af2, UIF, and PIFL. For Katy it's af2, IFL, and even the new WIFL.

I wouldn't put much merit to that comment anyway. It's just TVV running his mouth again. He doesn't know what he's talking about 99% of the time anyway. In other words, the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top, if you catch my drift. ;)

Either that, or he's STILL bitter over the past. Might be a little of both. Just take his comments with a grain of salt. Everyone else does.

[yellowpages]

One more thing, the af2 does look at the other leagues as nothing more than "ankle-biters".

I like the AFL style but, everyone knows that the AF2 would not be any different from any other indoor league if it didn't have the AFL's skirt to hid under. That is a fact that not even you can deny. The other leagues my be "ankle-biters" in the AF2 Director's eyes. But, at least, they don't bully folks then run and hide behind the pretence of momma.

[Malepig]

What skirt to hide under? The AFL owns 51% the af2. And as far as the af2 "bullying", they can and they should since it is good business. No apology there.
To answer about Katy. Evryone in the know is quiet about it. We will know in 3 weeks. And I am someone in the know.

[11HP20]

What skirt to hide under? The AFL owns 51% the af2. And as far as the af2 "bullying", they can and they should since it is good business. No apology there.
To answer about Katy. Evryone in the know is quiet about it. We will know in 3 weeks. And I am someone in the know.

I have to agree with your good business comment. This is America. Everything good HAS to be degraded or destroyed for the profit of a tiny minority. That's the American way. People in the mob thinking the things they enjoy should not be tampered with!?!? Give me a break. We need to remember to be thankful for what's left of our sports after the super rich have whored them to death. Anything else is traitorous.

[yellowpages]

Three cities that have been mentioned as possible AF2 markets are designated as AFL markets. Do you know what that means? That means an AF2 franchise can not go in there. Houston is one of those markets. That also means that Frisco, TX is not a future AF2 market unless Jerry Jones and the Desperados OK the deal. Not happening unless Jones is placing that team there himself.

Malepig, I have Mr. AF2 Director's personal phone number as well. Does that make me less in the know or more in the know? And, I'm more involved as a business person, not a fan like yourself. Give me a break. They've set you up as a patsy and you are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

[Malepig]

So you claim. First I never said a thing about Frisco did I? The problem is what you posted wasn't true. If it was I wouldn't have had to clarify would I? Anyoe who has Kurz's card has his phone number BTW. Next time post what is true and there won't be a problem.

[Tennessee Valley Vipers]

PIG!! About time you showed!! Pig is a very credible source. We don't want Frisco. It's a stop off a toll road. Nice ballpark though. WE WANT KATY !! It's basically North Houston, where the Goodyear blimp used to be. I know. I lived there.

[yellowpages]

So you claim. First I never said a thing about Frisco did I? The problem is what you posted wasn't true. If it was I wouldn't have had to clarify would I? Anyoe who has Kurz's card has his phone number BTW. Next time post what is true and there won't be a problem.


Two seperate paragraphs Malepig. Two seperate topics. Never said you where involved with the Frisco discussion.

Has far as the truth, you've verified in previous posts that what I mentioned about the AF2's business practices as being the truth. By the way, I don't have Mr. Kurz's business card. Be the poster child of the AF2, that's your call. You may know more then most but, you don't know as much as some. That there is factual as well.

[Pounder]

I wouldn't have called it "good business" in the sense that I'd be scratching and clawing to retain any semblance of the anti-trust laws that still exist in America- if in name only. In other words, if you wish to color me cynical, you're probably not doing it well enough.

In this case, we're talking about the bully being 5 and the other kids being pushed around are 4. If the 5 year old knew when and where to push, it would matter. The leagues are all pathetic in their own unique ways.

[Malepig]

Be the poster child of the AF2, that's your call. You may know more then most but, you don't know as much as some. That there is factual as well.

You are right that I don't know as much as Jurz in the office or those on the expansion committee on every team(but I do know most) that has appplied to the arena football family. The bottom line is you said stuff that wan't true and I clarified. If you don't like it, get your facts right before you post.

[AllTheRage]

The Katy Copperheads don't have the cash to be in AF2. If they did, they wouldn't have let the team go down the tubes while waiting on payment from Rapid City for their airline tickets in the playoffs. I never understood why they didn't just buy the tickets and re-imburse themselves when the money came in from Rapid City. There is only one answer, no money was available.

I am also not sure I bought the reason for moving the first playoff game to Beaumont. Personally, I think it was the lack of capital to host the Drillers and pay their expenses.

Don't get me wrong, Katy did a fine job in their innaugural season, but their pockets are not deep enough to be AF2 and they would be best suited and served in the IFL.

[exit322]

The af2 has extra investors that can come in and put the teams under their financial backing, I'm sure.

If a market is good and they can convince those backers as much, a place like Katy is a shoe-in for the af2.

[AllTheRage]

There are not enough seats in the Merrill Center to be able to make an AF2 team profitable. It's a nice thought, but it won't work.

[Minor League Man]

I know.

Which is why they are rumored to move to the Reliant Astrodome if they go af2.

[exit322]

There are not enough seats in the Merrill Center to be able to make an AF2 team profitable. It's a nice thought, but it won't work.

The intent of some investors isn't always to make a profit...but if it is, then Katy won't work in the af2.

[yellowpages]

You are right that I don't know as much as Jurz in the office or those on the expansion committee on every team(but I do know most) that has appplied to the arena football family. The bottom line is you said stuff that wan't true and I clarified. If you don't like it, get your facts right before you post.


I have not seen anywhere that you have clarified and/or proven my statements as being false in this thread. As a matter of fact, you have supported my statements in regard to the AF2's business tactics.

It is a fact that the Utah Blaze owner received rights to AF2 markets for free. That is a direct statement from him. It is a fact that Houston (Katy), Dallas/Ft. Worth (Frisco), San Antonio, and St Louis are AFL held markets that won't have AF2 there. That is a direct quote from the AF2 Director.

I stand by my statements as 100% accurate and correct. Either things have changed in the by month or you are not in the "loop" as much as you think you are and you want others to think you are. If things have changed, the AF2 is a lot more desperate for markets then realized.

[Malepig]

Show your proof about Frisco. show your quote about San Antonio.

You also said "It seems the AF2 is using the AIFL's model of securing the venues first THEN getting the ownership groups together later". That is a flat out lie by you. The ownership groups are coming to the af2 first to be checked out and proven they have met the financial standards to be met first before venue is discussed.

Until then you have nothing except your envy of the af2.

[exit322]

Show your proof about Frisco. show your quote about San Antonio.

You also said "It seems the AF2 is using the AIFL's model of securing the venues first THEN getting the ownership groups together later". That is a flat out lie by you. The ownership groups are coming to the af2 first to be checked out and proven they have met the financial standards to be met first before venue is discussed.

Until then you have nothing except your envy of the af2.

I wouldn't call it a lie. It's not true, but I can see where the perception would make people say "is that what they're doing?" It DOES look like they're acting like that.

[AllTheRage]

I know.

Which is why they are rumored to move to the Reliant Astrodome if they go af2.

That will never happen as Houston is still targeted as a AF1 market and they will never allow an AF2 team into an AF1 market, guaranteed.

[yellowpages]

Show your proof about Frisco. show your quote about San Antonio.

You also said "It seems the AF2 is using the AIFL's model of securing the venues first THEN getting the ownership groups together later". That is a flat out lie by you. The ownership groups are coming to the af2 first to be checked out and proven they have met the financial standards to be met first before venue is discussed.

Until then you have nothing except your envy of the af2.

Ask the AF2 Director about what I said about Frisco and San Antonio, then come back here and call me a liar. The fact that the AF2 is trying to secure venues by promising the venues more money and not being specific about ownership groups in some markets is proof enough of their AIFL similarities.

I do agree with you on one thing, the AF2 "could" be kings in the minor league indoor world. Their league structure is tremendous. But, their cost and economics are way overpriced and out of line. Until they change their economic structure, they won't rule the indoor world.

[Malepig]

Don't you think I already know on expansion and what cities are allowed to have af2 teams and which aren't? Look you put yourself into a hole, you have no proof, just drop it. Don't talk on this thread because you have no proof on what you are saying.

[Tater]

and you are speaking from which facts?

[Reichert]

The Katy Copperheads don't have the cash to be in AF2. If they did, they wouldn't have let the team go down the tubes while waiting on payment from Rapid City for their airline tickets in the playoffs. I never understood why they didn't just buy the tickets and re-imburse themselves when the money came in from Rapid City. There is only one answer, no money was available.

I am also not sure I bought the reason for moving the first playoff game to Beaumont. Personally, I think it was the lack of capital to host the Drillers and pay their expenses.

Don't get me wrong, Katy did a fine job in their innaugural season, but their pockets are not deep enough to be AF2 and they would be best suited and served in the IFL.

Get your facts straight before you rail on the Copperhead organization. Onwer Bryan Blake is on record over on the NIFL forum as saying that af2 is the ONLY league he would consider jumping to if they jump at all. Let me pick apart your argument piece by piece here:

--Rapid City fiasco. Not only did the Copperheads have the funds to pay out of pocket for the trip, they had TWO sets of reservations made for the trip. The NIFL's nimrod of a leader, Carolyn Shiver, ORDERED Blake to not pay for the trip until Rapid City's compensation arrived in Katy. That did not happen until 24 hours before game time. Then Shiver tried to tell Blake that she was sending a bus to get the Katy squad to South Dakota. They're still waiting for that bus. They got screwed over by the front office, pure and simple.

--Beaumont Playoff Game. That argument doesn't wash because the Drillers were in worse shape financially. So suddenly Beaumont can afford to pay Katy's travel expenses? By this point in the season Katy was drawing around 4,000 a game. No, the reason given for the move wound up being the legitimate one, confirmed by SEVERAL people in the Katy organization over on the board. The only conspiracy theory I can buy on this is not in relation to Katy or Beaumont's front offices, but once again that of the NIFL and Carolyn Shiver.

--Katy's War Chest. The expenses undoubtedly go up on a franchise in af2 over any other indoor league. In exchange they receive superior marketing and greater stability. What people fail to understand is that compared to the rest of the NIFL Katy had a VERY loaded group of corporate sponsors. A move to the af2 would likely pad those corporate dollars even more, offsetting partially the expenses of the move. The only NIFL teams with a better collection of corporate sponsorships were the western teams and probably Fayetteville. And all of those teams are goners for next year.

--The Katy Market. People fail to understand just how large this market is. Katy is one of the largest suburban markets around Houston, and the population within 10 miles of the Merrell Center exceeds 300,000. It would be a larger than average market even in af2. Incomes are also well above the national and state averages in the Katy region.

--Seating. This would be the biggest obstacle with Katy in af2. The Merrell Center seating for the NIFL according to Blake is just a shade under 5,000. With some creative shuffling that number can be nudged just a shade OVER 5,000. The Copperheads would obviously need to not only load up on corporate sponsorships but would need to fill the joint every night. In Katy that means one thing has to happen: A competitive and winning team. Bryan Blake, as coach and owner, put together a good team in the NIFL. Doing it in af2 would represent his next challenge.

[AllTheRage]

It could be you that needs to get your facts straight. Better yet, call up Amarillo and see how they are doing in AF2. The were already filling the arena in the IFL, but thought the corporate sponsors would pick up the $600,000 difference in budget. That selling a lot of additional dasherboards.

Katy is fine for what it is, but it will not be more than an IFL team. Blake can say what he wants and you can believe what you want, but he didn't host the Beaumont game or fly to Rapid City because he couldn't lay down the jack. That's it.

CS has sent along a lot of orders that weren't obeyed. Take it for what it is, an excuse for not putting up the cash and treating his team right instead of forcing them to risk their lives and health on that ill planned trip to Rapid City.

[Reichert]

He laid down the jack for the Rapid City trip ahead of time....TWICE. At least for the trip itself. As for lodging, that could be a different story, but you don't make reservations for bus or air travel without paying the money upfront, period.

As for comparing Amarillo with Katy, you are comparing apples and oranges on that one. The two markets are VERY different. Amarillo is an isolated Panhandle city with a LOT LESS money running around town than Katy has. The Katy market is also larger than Amarillo in population.

I'm not saying it would be easy to make up a $600K gap in expenses, but with the right effort and right people it could be done in Katy. In Amarillo you are talking a pretty impossible task.

As it stands Blake has made it clear the only options for the Copperheads are to go af2 or stay in the NIFL. Period.

[yellowpages]

Don't you think I already know on expansion and what cities are allowed to have af2 teams and which aren't? Look you put yourself into a hole, you have no proof, just drop it. Don't talk on this thread because you have no proof on what you are saying.


What hole?????? What proof do you have that I'm lying? Absolutely none. Seems you're the one that ended up the idiot in this thread. I'll take your advise. I'm done posting on this thread. :p

[Malepig]

I'm glad you are taking my advice since you have no proof on anything you said.

[AllTheRage]

[QUOTE=Reichert]He laid down the jack for the Rapid City trip ahead of time....TWICE. At least for the trip itself. As for lodging, that could be a different story, but you don't make reservations for bus or air travel without paying the money upfront, period.

As for comparing Amarillo with Katy, you are comparing apples and oranges on that one. The two markets are VERY different. Amarillo is an isolated Panhandle city with a LOT LESS money running around town than Katy has. The Katy market is also larger than Amarillo in population.
QUOTE]

If he laid down the money for the airline tickets, he would have flown. He certainly would not have let that money go. Think about what you are writing. He didn't put up any money. Secondly, he would not have had anything to do with the lodging as the home team would be repsonsible for that,

The point about Amarillo is that they were selling out their arena in the IFL and had a full set of dasherboards and game program ads. So where is the additional money going to come from? Investors? That can happen one time, but you cannot have a cash call every year to get investors to pony up money to make up the difference in the costs. It has nothing to do with the size of the market, if you are already selling out.

I know you are in love with Katy, but most people believe that Carolyn Shiver is the majority owner of Katy, anyway. That may be the reason they are in the NIFL, becasue they sure won't jump to AF2. That's just a smoke screen.

[Reichert]

[QUOTE=Reichert]
I know you are in love with Katy, but most people believe that Carolyn Shiver is the majority owner of Katy, anyway. That may be the reason they are in the NIFL, becasue they sure won't jump to AF2. That's just a smoke screen.

Blake answered that question on the NIFL boards, as well. There's a MAJOR disconnect on the rumors of Shiver owning the team. If CS really owned that team do you think the team would have survived season one? She isn't capable of keeping a Boy Scout troop totally intact for the entire year, let alone a franchise or the league.

If CS was primary owner of that franchise she would have demanded near total control of it. Bryan Blake's actions and general competence in running that franchise indicate that he would never agree to be a "yes" man for someone like CS, at least not in running a team.

[Carrottop2386]

I was reading an article about Laredo getting a new head coach and the owner said, "The league is solid. They’re looking at adding teams in Fort Worth and Lubbock."

[twgmdd]

I hope Lubbock gits a team.

[phydeaux72]

I hope Lubbock gits a team.

I'd like to see Lubbock get a franchise back in the IFL as well. It would be nice to have more than one team in the league, besides San Angelo, within a reasonable driving distance of Odessa. Also, I'm hoping we get El Paso back into the league in the next year or so. I travel to El Paso a lot on business and would love to catch an Odessa/El Paso road game while I was there.

[Carrottop2386]

He also said they are looking at Katy (which was pretty much already known) and Monterrey, Mexico. Is that even smart to have a team in Mexico?

[Minor League Man]

I'm hoping for Fort Worth.

[phydeaux72]

He also said they are looking at Katy (which was pretty much already known) and Monterrey, Mexico. Is that even smart to have a team in Mexico?

I don't think that Monterrey, Mexico will be in the league anytime soon, if ever. That's probably just a rumor based on a survey the IFL did on their website toward the beginning of the season asking fans what team they thought would be the next expansion team. And that was just a name they tossed in there to see what kind of response they would get. They put Las Vegas on the list as well, knowing that they had no plans of putting a franchise there.

The Katy owners contacted the IFL owners several times last season expressing interest in joining the league. From what the owners told me, they would love to have Katy in the IFL as long as they didn't have to face any legal battles with CS or the NIFL. They've already been down that road twice and would like to avoid it if at all possible. I think there's still a really good possibility that Katy will be in the IFL next season. And if they jump ship, I don't see Beaumont having much of a choice either.

[Reichert]

The Katy owners contacted the IFL owners several times last season expressing interest in joining the league. From what the owners told me, they would love to have Katy in the IFL as long as they didn't have to face any legal battles with CS or the NIFL. They've already been down that road twice and would like to avoid it if at all possible. I think there's still a really good possibility that Katy will be in the IFL next season. And if they jump ship, I don't see Beaumont having much of a choice either.

Katy owner Bryan Blake is on record right here on the NIFL forum stating that the only league he would look to move to is af2. Otherwise, he's sticking with the NIFL for one more season at least (if the league survives 2007).

[fwp]

Katy owner Bryan Blake is on record right here on the NIFL forum stating that the only league he would look to move to is af2. Otherwise, he's sticking with the NIFL for one more season at least (if the league survives 2007).

People in indoor football will say a lot of things, sometimes for different reasons.

Bryan Blake's a good man, he'll do what's best for his franchise when all is said and done.

[11HP20]

Katy owner Bryan Blake is on record right here on the NIFL forum stating that the only league he would look to move to is af2. Otherwise, he's sticking with the NIFL for one more season at least (if the league survives 2007).

I'm sure Blake will regret staying in the NIFL if that is what he does. If his pockets are deep enough and he can make things work in AF2 good for him and Katy. People have thier doubts about him having the jack to jump to AF2. I don't know one way or another.
If I had signed a non-compete and wanted to jump leagues I would only mention leagues I couldn't join as options. Why tell the world (and CS) what you are doing if CS might try to screw things up for you.