possibility of a new league

[rapper28]

hello everyone! i just wanted to let everyone know of the possibility of a new league starting in november of 2004. I was a player coach in the iihl which we all know failed miserably. I have been playing minor pro hockey for 7 years and am very frutrated with the owners or people trying to jump in and make a quick buck and then taking off leaving players and coaches with financial problems. Most of ther owners don't realize what they are doping to the players mentally and financially. I realize everyone has a choice but for young players all they want is a chance. You can ask any of the players i coached with the soo mavericks this year i was 100 % upfront and honest. Not one player got paid not one player recieved any knid of compensation what so ever. Well whatever that league is finished and over with. What i would like from everyone on this board is some feedback. I have a few investors who are interested in starting a new league, some possiible franchise locations are North Bay Ontario, Thunder Bay Ontario, Chatham Ontario, St Cathrines Ontario, Detroit MI, Alpena MI, Sault Ste MArie MI, Green Bay WI, Madison MI, Canton OH, Columbus OH, Allentown PA, Louisville KY, with a few other locations being looked at. I would like everyone to tell me what they think ask questions and just give some general feed back. i would just like everyone to remember league is just still in the talk stages but i would very much liek to hear what everone thinks. Thank you for taking the time out to read this it is very much appreciated, Jason Rapcewicz

[hockeydude1983]

Hi, interesting idea, i always been interest in start up leagues...

I would like to know what kind of level you are targeting?
Do you plan on having affiliations or just independant teams?
What name would the league have?

As we notice pro hockey is in a changing phase! The WCHL merged with the ECHL, and alot of teams are having money troubles. The UHL just lost a team that was in its first year of operation! The ACHL splited in 2, the SEHL wich has only 4 teams, and the WHA2 wich is rumored to have financial difficulties and might be changing its plans for next year if the WHA doesnt take off. Everyone know about the IIHL fiasco. The NEHL formed this year with a low 4 teams, and one of them relocated just after a handfull of home games! The FHL has been pushing back is opening face off twice this year, from an 80 to 40 to a 24 game season starting in April!!! And who know if they will fly off in the end. As for next year, the NHL will probably be locked up, We dont know if the WHA will be a go and there already been rumors about teams folding and expension in every leagues. The new CPHL is supose to begin play and i heard a rumor about a 4 on 4 league around louisiana and arkansas.

I love hockey, i love new leagues, the more there is the better it is! But i hate seing a league or a team failing, because it lowers down the credibility of hockey, for fans and possible investors (they get to think that hockey is a failing venture). Please, no more IIHL folding after a handfull of games, no more Columbus Stars folding before reaching the midway point of the season, no more Poughkeepsie Panthers relocating after only 3 home games!

If people are to try launching new leagues, or new teams, they shouldnt do it if they dont have the financial ressourses to last AT LEAST A FULL YEAR IN THE WORST SCENARIO, then if they see the venture will never be worth it, they should just quit, but AFTER THE SEASON IS OVER. In that case they hurt at a minimum the sport of hockey and the fans.

So if you want to start a new league, please make sure you have the financial abilities so no teams fold or relocate mid way through the season.
There is alot of factors to make a league succesful and one of them is marketing, not only targeting the fans, but also the players, but i guess that could also be taking care by each organisations in the league. Basicaly, just make sure you are building something solid, that way there is more chances of succes.

Now, what do i think of the mentioned markets..

North Bay:
- Rumored to be one of the 6 FHL start up cites, who knows if the league will be a go in April.
-Also rumored to be hosting one of the 6 start up cities in the CPHL for 2004-2005
-So i am not so sure about this market, i would wait and see if FHL take off, if they do, i wouldnt venture, if they dont, well it migh be a fight between your league and the CPHL for the market. But i dont think the market is big enough for 2 teams, even less for 3!

Thunder Bay:
-That could be a good market, they havent had pro hockey there since the UHL left and its a good hockey town.

Chatham:
- They dont have pro hockey since the CoHL left.

St-Cathrines:
-Rumored to be one of the 6 start up cities in the CPHL
-Not enough of a big market for 2 teams, so either your league or CPHL.

Detroit:
-they have the Red Wings in the NHL
-They are rumored to maybe have a WHA team.
-Motor-City Snipers of the IIHL just failed there, but i believe detroit is big enough and has enough hockey fans to support 2 or 3 teams. They even did it a few years back when they had the Red Wings in NHL, the Vipers in the IHL and the Falcons in the CoHL.

Alpena:
-Where is that !?!?

Sault Ste Marie:
-They have no pro team there since the Soo City Mavericks of the IIHL closed shop, but i think the city would support a well run franchise there.

Green Bay:
-They have the Green Bay Deacons of the GLHL
-Dont know if the city is big enough to support 2 teams.

Madison:
-They have the Madison Capitals of the GLHL
-Dont know if the city is big enough to support 2 teams.

Canton:
-UHL never materialized there, so i think it would be a good market.

Columbus:
-They have the Blue Jackets of the NHL
-The Columbus Stars of the UHL just fold before reaching the mid season.
-Big enough to support 2 teams (well run organisation please)

Allentown:
-UHL never materialized there, would be a good market.

Louisville:
-No pro hockey since the Louisville Panthers left the AHL.
-I think it would be a good market.

[REVVED]

I'm in, too, and I agree with the scouting report!

Joe's got that team in Buffalo he's trying to get off the ground, but I don't think he's committed to a league yet. The CPHL is running at full tilt to get going. Haven't heard anything new from the FHL. With the struggles in the UHL, SEHL, WHA2, and NEHL, another new league would be an enormous undertaking.

Best of luck and keep me in the loop!

[REVVED]

Alpena:
-Where is that !?!?


The U.S. side of Thunder Bay. (http://www.alpena.mi.us/)

[GBFan]

Actually as far as Green Bay goes its not really the Deacons that would be the problem, first you have the Packers that is where the majority of the sports dollars go. Then you have DIII St Norbert Hockey that draw on the average 1500 a game at the 2000 seat Cornerstone arena in Depere. Then you have Teir One Green Bay Gamblers who average 3800 at the 8000 seat Resch Center. A new team could compete with DIII hockey but not the Gamblers. I know a lot of people would prefer pro over the USHL.

Now there are a couple of areas besides Green Bay, Appleton 30 miles south could be a excellent choice in the heart ofthe valley with possible 300,000 fan base to pick from.

[hockeydude1983]

GBfan, doesnt Appleton have the Fox Cities Ice Dogs?
From the pictures on their web site, it seems like they have good crowds.
Would they be competing with another team for fan base? or you think there is enough fans for 2 teams?

[GBFan]

Yes there is the Ice Dogs there and they do draw pretty well. I dont know if NE Wisconsin is ready for another team at ths time, the Gamblers have a good following. There is a demand for PRO hockey here but that cant happen until the Gambers are gone.

[rapper28]

we are looking at a single A or AA level. OUr salary cap will be between 5000 and 7000 a week U.S. we are not trying to become competition for other leagues but become a feeder system for the echl or the uhl. I realize what mr kilbreath told everyone. We are not MR Kilbreath and we are going to be legit. If anyone has any questions about franchises or coaching or employment with the league. I am hoping to have a website up in a couple of weeks to give you a little more info. Please keep in touch and anything you would like to say or any input you have please let me know. Since you are the ones who will be coming to our games i would like input from everyone. Thank you for your time!

[Herk]

Madison:
-They have the Madison Capitals of the GLHL
-Dont know if the city is big enough to support 2 teams

I live in Madison and Have never heard of the Capitals. (Well at least the GLHL team, the Madison Capitols are actually a youth team in madison as well.) They get zero media coverage (Is the GLHL even a Pro league?). I disagree with the support thing, Madison would support a team if it was in a legit league and they play in the Alliant Center (formerly the Dane County Collisium), Just like the CoHL/UHL teams Madison Monsters and Kodiaks. The bigger problem is competition with the University of Wisconsin which is a huge draw in Madison especially since moving into the Kohl Center.

[hockeydude1983]

The Madison Capitals are an expansion team this year in the GLHL (Great Lakes Hockey League). The league isnt a pro league. It is the only competitive senior league in the USA. I personaly consider the league semi-pro, even if they dont claim to be. I have never seen any GLHL games, but i assume the caliber of play is somehow similar to the IIHL and NEHL caliber. NEHL founder was the GCHL founder, a semi-pro league that last one season and had some teams playing exhibition games against some GLHL teams. Thats the link i base my opinion on when i say GLHL is kinda semi-pro.

This is the league web site: http://www.activeleague.com/GLHL/ but there isnt that much info, i rather go on the Fox Cities Ice Dogs web site: http://www.icedogshockey.net/

.................................................. ..............


How about some markets in the prairies?

Would teams work in markets such as:
-Cedar Rapid
-Des Moines
-Omaha
-Bismark
-Pierre
-Lincoln
-Cheyenne
-Helena
-Billings
-Sioux Falls
-Fargo-Moorehead
-any others???

[rapper28]

well the big problem for a lot of minor pro teams is travel costs. It is very costly to travel by bus for a season. Most of the chl and uhl teams are spending around 60 000 - 70 000 fro bus travel, which is very costly. Plus the longer the trips the more money has to be spent on hotels and per diem. I don't mind considering it but we would have to know iti would work or it is not worth taking the chance. It is very difficult to get people to step in when your budget is a million dollars. The operating budget for a team in a our potential league should onluy be about 400 000 dollars for the season. That would allow each team to operate comfortably.

[Big Chris]

Hmmm,

Feeder system to the lower level minor leagues? Comfortable $400,000 budgets? Based in the midwest? Sounds like Mike Killbreath to me...

[rapper28]

well big chris if you took the time to read all the post instead of what you wanted top read you would see that i did give my name as i have nothing to hide. JASON RAPCEWICZ FORMER PLAYER COACH OF THE SOO MAVERICKS.Thasnk you . So before you ostart cuttiong me down like have seen you do before please take the time to read everything in the posts it might surprise youin what i have to say. The reson you can keep budgets so low is by cutting down on travel costs. that is a huge part of the problem. So once again MY NAME IS JASON RAPCEWICZ AND NOT MIKE KILBREATH. THANK YOU

[Big Chris]

With such a low budget you look and sound cut rate, that was Killbreath's biggest foulup. It also implies that your owners won't have much, if any money. That in itself implies that your league won't be around long.

You need deep pockets to keep a hockey team afloat as it is the riskiest venture in all of pro sports.

[rapper28]

well my friend big chris ( did iget it right this time), if you do th reasearch you don't need big budgets to operate at this level> i don't know how familiar you are with the quebes semi pro or any of the senior leagues in quebec but i must tell you the quebec semi pro teams operate on about 500 00 per year and the payrolls in that league are outrageous. Higher salary cap than the echl, uhl, chl. They probably pay around 9 000 - 13 000 per week and they paly a 52 game schedule. So anyway i can handle you coming on here and cutting me down but please do the research and get informed before you come here and do so. We have so many people who are negative and it makes it very difficult to get off the ground. By the way Big Chris (i think that is right) I didn't say this league was for sure i said that i would like to get some feedback from everyone so wwe can get an idea from the people of what they want. On a different note i was burned by kilbreath and i know his lines. my question to you is how were you burned. Did you have a tesm of 16 players playing for you who were just playing for the love of the game, and hoping that one of these days everything would be taken care of. Did you have to watch these guys play there hearts out every game and then get nothing in the end. Did you have to look these guys in the eyes and tell them that the league folded and then watch tears well up as their dreams were crushed. Did you sit around making calls after the iihl folded for players to try and get them jobs. Well i did so please if you are going to come in here and make statements like this please get your facts straight or maybe tell us your story so that we can know hwy you have all this pent up tention. thank you once again from Jason Rapcewicz

[rapper28]

i apologize for my spelling in that last one folks i was pretty fired up.

[rapper28]

well the other option being talked about is to move into the old wphl markets like monroe, waco, little rock, lake charles, central texas, tuscon, Tupelo, maybe even kansas city, texarkana. It is the other possibility. We will have to look into it. Please let me know what you thoughts on this region are. Obviously bigger budgets are needed but it can be done.

[Big Chris]

The reason senior leagues opperate at such high budgets in Quebec, (the proper spelling of La Belle Provence,) is that the property taxes and civic entertainment taxes are sky high there. (Which is why the Canadiens can't afford to float a winner anymore and why the Nordiques left town.)

The iihl proved that $400,000 a year as an annual budget is ridiculously low and unsustainable. The ECHL and UHL, (and to a lesser extent the CHL,) can barely field competitive lineups as it is let alone being able to afford to buy into a feeder system. The NEHL and WHA2 are struggling even harder then those leagues are and the quality of hockey has not been great. This is a tough sell and I am simply pointing that out.

If you are serious then your best bet is to form a junior league in one or two states or buy a franchise in an existing league. There you will find lower budgets and no player salaries to speak of.

[rapper28]

just for you r info Big Chris there is no civic entertainment tax for the semi pro teams in quebec. Also what the heck do the property taxes have to do with anything. The rinks are all city run. The teams only pay per hour for the ice time used so obviously you are not that familier with the quebec semi professional league.

[rapper28]

i agree with you that that alot of teams are struggling. Also I don't no if you are aware but kilbreath's propsed budget for the soo team which i have in front of me right now was only 210 000 dollars which would have taken us right through the season. Once again if you call around to the bus companies and such you will be able to figure out your budget. I will give you a break down since you don't want to do the research yourself but just want to ***** and complain and probably never own a team in your life but just so you can see i will give you something.

[some156]

I believe your idea would work in some of those sourthern markets. Definently Lake Charles they could average i believe 2500 or more a game no doubt. Im very surprise no owner have brought a team back to the CHL. I had heard a rumor that Indy might move there but the chl just said they would move a team there if there was a ownership group. Alexandria got a decent crowd not a big arena so not big overhead i would believe decent crowd there. Monroe when they were there i didnt know much about them. I think Tupelo could work but there gonna join one of those other leagues probaly. If new orleans doesnt move back to the echl next year that could work play in the memorial auditorium. I think a AA league would work better here but then again a lot of AA teams already in the area so it could be a good feeder. Hopefully you will get a league down south.

[Global-Hockey]

Most of the problem with the teams you mentioned from the former WPHL were not attendance problems. They were ownership problems. I covered the WPHL for a National Hockey Magazine (attended teh very first Ice Pirates game ever played), same with WACO and Austin. The teams attracted fans, it was poor management. The first Ice Bats game ever played in Austin vs WACO, the Ice Bats announcer did not have a clue. He was calling the game like a football broadcast. he thought the game was played in 4 quarters. This radio broadcast went out to how many people? What is my point you ask? MANAGEMENT of these lower level teams think that a hockey team is a Toy. The great DOC Afer who owned the Port Huron Border Cats moved his own team from his own rink in Frasier to paying rent in Port Huron. Then he gave his son control of the Louisville AHL team and his son who liked to drive fancy cars, drink only the finest wines, put that team under. Lake Charles, had an ownership dispute between the majority and minority owner. Fans were there, but MANAGEMENT folded the team because of lack of knowledge on how to run it. Other teams that folded not because of low fan base but P--S poor management. WACO (then moved on to Tucson, then on to Columbus folded all three teams), Baton Rouge, that owner though the had an NHL team and tried to run it like an NHL team with increased prices on everything. You can't offer ECHL hockey at NHL ticket prices. I could go on and on. Bottom line is. Give the fans a good product, treat the fans like they are important, and give them a product on th eice that they can enjoy. When you start treating your team like a TOY, it will break.

[rapper28]

thank you very much for that last post that is what i have been trying to get across> Global Hockey I would like to have a chat with you about some ideas i have. I f you would be interested you can contact me. Just send me a private message and i will give you my contact information. I would like to here some of your ideas and views. thank you very much Jason Rapcewicz

[Ken, Steelheads fan]

You should study the successful franchises--franchises that have been around for several years. Also, it would be a good idea to observe what is going on in Victoria, B.C. That new franchise (in a new arena by the way) announced their entering the league (AHL?) back in November 2003 for the upcoming 2004 season. They gave themselves at least 12 months lead time to establish themselves in the community and sell season tickets--1,500 already sold by November 2003. Now let's see...@ $100 deposit for each season ticket immediately gives the team $150,000 in working capital before any water is frozen to make ice.

What's my point? It sounds like you expect to make your money from the gate. If so, then expect to fold in record time! You don't make money at the gate--not your real money at least. You need to go into the communities you want to locate teams several months ahead of time, join the local chamber of commerces, donate what you can to local charities (and get favorable press), court local politicians, court potential sponsors, then sell season ticket packages like crazy.

You make your real money from politicians who can pull strings for you, sponsors who believe you can draw crowds, and season ticket holders who have confidence that you will be around more than one season.

It takes deep pockets to do all the marketing necessary to make the real money. I mean deep pockets just to approach the break even mark. A lot of leagues/teams fail for one simple reason--unexpected costs (which translates into shallow pockets).[/i]

[Global-Hockey]

The new team you are talking about is the old Baton Rouge Kingfish and they will be playing in the ECHL, not the AHL.

[paulydog79]

One thing that has bothered me about all of these startup leagues is the way that you/they identify what kind of league you are going to be.Many claim to be a"professional" league when in reality they are a semi-pro league.To me and many others a "pro" league is one in which the players are paid enough salary where they don't have to work another job.Semi-pro is where the players are paid some salary but the players must have another job to make ends meet.I just hope new league owners will be honest with fans one what kind of product they plan on putting on the ice.
paul m.

[rapper28]

good point but if our league minimun is going to be 250 - 275 per week U.S. plus housing. I do believe that is plenty of money to live on. I know so becasue when i started playing that is what i was making. The season is only 36 weeks long so of course some guys are going to have to get summer jobs, unless you save money. Per diem will be provided on the road. I think you are splitting hairs here because there are alot of seasonal jobs out in the real world too. So does that mean that thos employees are only part time workers and should not get any type of compensation. ridiculous isn't it. You get payed to play (a livable earning) it is a professional league. You can call it what you want. I am just trying to make a point. Oh yeah What was the NHL in the 50's 60' was it not a professional league. Alot of those guys had to work other jobs too.

[paulydog79]

actually, you just backed up everything I said, You also explained the difference between a pro league and a semi-pro league.If you are going to provided the players enough funds to live off of during the season then you have a "pro" league.if they work a job DURING the season as well as play hockey for money then it is a semi-pro league. My statement was the fact that some people start league claiming to be pro and end up semi-pro or even an amature league.Either one is ok with me, I just ask owners to be honest.
paul m.

[rapper28]

actually you put me in the same category is the rest of them, i do believe it was " you/them" yes ok. In a previous post i believe i gave a figure for the salary cap and if you average that out among the 16 men on the roster you will see that it is more then a 275 a week minimum per player. I did clarify everything you said but also that we are going to be a profesional league.

[hockeydude1983]

looks like Sault St Marie is also targeted by the CPHL!

http://www.canadianprofessionalhockeyleague.com/cities.html

[George]

If a new league is in the works, despite the lack of support shown by attendance in the WHA2 and SEHL, I have a suggestion that might help grow fan bases where they are needed, and any team below 3,000 announced attendance could use all the help it can get. What about interleague play, especially in states that have AA teams in more than one league? Shreveport v. IceGators, Wildcatters v. Austin, Augusta v. Macon, Florida v. Orlando, Pensacola v. Jacksonville, and on and on.

This is not a new idea, just before the ECHL-WCHL merger, I believe there were interleague games between the WCHL and CHL.

The games counted in the respective leagues' standings, and fan attendance certainly can't be hurt by this.

Of course, this will take a great deal of cooperation among the AA leagues, and ownership has been less than willing to admit the need to do something radically different in the hopes of boosting fan interest.

Maybe it's asking too much of ownership to put aside childish games of trying to outdo the competition and come together to try to build successful leagues and franchises at least for the foreseeable future. It's just a thought, and I would like to hear from you on this.

George

[Sewer-rat]

With all the unstibility in hockey right now, starting a new league is the worst thing to do right now. Don't get me wrong I love hockey, I love to see new leagues, and YOUNG players get thier carrieers off the ground, not 26 - 28 year old hockey players who never made it trying to hold on to a dream (that was the IIHL for the most part) that is how leagues get diluted with talent that isn't up to par, which in turn creates unhappy fans, which in turn creates low ticket sales, which in turn creates folded teams/leagues, which in turn creates more people trying to start up Crap leagues (IIHL,NEHL,etc.). I would say the best thing to do right now is to sit back, and watch and see, and learn from what is about to happen with hockey right now, examples....
1) Watch to see what happens with the NHL.(which in turn affects all of the minors for the most part)
2) Watch to see what happens with the WHA.
3) Watch to see what happens with the WHA2, and the SEHL situation.
4)Watch to see what happens with the UHL/CHL after this year.(Even though the one to really watch will be the UHL since they seem to be the one in the most trouble)

I know how badly WE ALL would like to see a new league, but think about it... There might be the FHL-2nd try, The CPHL, and even though it is only in the talk stages Raps league. PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but that is a joke! There are going to be 3 start up leagues going on??? We have to think realistically about this. You say we are not going to compete with the other markets (ie. the other leagues), but you are, just not directly, that is just a fact. Unfortunately it is a business when you start a league, it's not just a sport anymore. I am not trying to discourage you, but just trying to give some insight. My opinion is to wait 1 year, 2 years (even though that sucks) would be ideal. Let the cards fall as they may with all the happenings in hockey. Then you will know when and where and how to play your cards with starting up a new league. Good Luck with your endever!

[SignGuyDino]

Any partnership with the SEHL and the WHA2 ain't gonna happen. They are in a blood feud. Frankly, some of the SEHL fans are the most vitrolic people I've ever seen in their hatred of David Waronker because he didn't want to stay with the same bunch that ran down the ACHL. He already bailed these guys out once.

I don't care how much "sympathy" they claim about Miami's demise, they take every opportunity to rip the WHA2 every chance they get.

They're just mad DW won't be around to bail them out AGAIN!!

[hockeyguru]

hello everyone! i just wanted to let everyone know of the possibility of a new league starting in november of 2004. I was a player coach in the iihl which we all know failed miserably. I have been playing minor pro hockey for 7 years and am very frutrated with the owners or people trying to jump in and make a quick buck and then taking off leaving players and coaches with financial problems. Most of ther owners don't realize what they are doping to the players mentally and financially. I realize everyone has a choice but for young players all they want is a chance. You can ask any of the players i coached with the soo mavericks this year i was 100 % upfront and honest. Not one player got paid not one player recieved any knid of compensation what so ever. Well whatever that league is finished and over with. What i would like from everyone on this board is some feedback. I have a few investors who are interested in starting a new league, some possiible franchise locations are North Bay Ontario, Thunder Bay Ontario, Chatham Ontario, St Cathrines Ontario, Detroit MI, Alpena MI, Sault Ste MArie MI, Green Bay WI, Madison MI, Canton OH, Columbus OH, Allentown PA, Louisville KY, with a few other locations being looked at. I would like everyone to tell me what they think ask questions and just give some general feed back. i would just like everyone to remember league is just still in the talk stages but i would very much liek to hear what everone thinks. Thank you for taking the time out to read this it is very much appreciated, Jason Rapcewicz

Why do people want to start up these type of leagues? It's just glorified Senior hockey. North Bay couldn't support an OHL team. They need a new arena. Thunder Bay is to far away and the travel costs would be sky high, not to mention, the issue of bad weather in the winter. Alpena is to small, their new arena doesn't have enough seating for a "pro" team and the town's economy isn't good. Sault Ste. Marie has no facility. That Pullar Arena is outdated. It's about 15 feet too small in length and 15 feet too small in width. Columbus won't work, it has a NHL team. Look at the Columbus Stars. They were good and lead the UHL, but, couldn't draw over 900 fans a game.

If you do start a leagye get with USA Hockey and make it like the OHA Senior AAA or the Quebec Semi-Pro/Senior AAA League.

[hockeyguru]

You gotta remember that the a good CHL, WHA2, SEHL or UHL game is no faster than the two USHL games. As a fan, I would rather watch a game in the USHL, NAHL, or OHL than some washed up "pro" league.

[ToddDelcour]

Dear Rapper 28

My name is Todd Delcour I live in Louisville,Kentucky and we are starving for another hockey team The AHL was a fiasco from a ownership standpoint attendance was good so it can work here with the right ownership group. We have Freedom Hall,Broadbent Arena,and The gardens as facilities for the team,we have a strong ownership group of an F2 team AS well as a Triple A baseball team. I don't know if its my place to say this sir but could you relay to the prospective officials of this new league to suggest contacting both of these teams as possible partners so that if we get a team it would take off,be stable,and succeed.
Also could you tell me more about the league such as comparable level of play(echl,uhl,chl). bring hockey back to louisville!!!
Todd Delcour