Source: Billings to move on

[preeths]

This will come as no shock, but a source within the Billings Outlaws has indicated the team will not return to the NIFL next year. That's a foregone conclusion for many, as is the notion they won't be the only ones from the region to go. Here are a few details. The Outlaws are looking at a new team-owned league (kind of like the WIFL structure) with up to six other NIFL franchises. Plans are in the works, and a couple of different league names are being (or have been) trademarked. Keeping their options open, this group is further researching/talking to at least two other current leagues about joining them. That's all I was able to get for now. Let the speculation begin.

[Freedom]

If they don't start a new league I imagine it will be the UIF or PIFL.

[preeths]

I should mention that one of the leagues they're looking at is established in another region. They would play under their banner and meet for a title game, possibly.

[Freedom]

Interesting . . .

[preeths]

To say the least. This will be an eventful offseason.

[ronaldoswalt]

watch them race for the next league

[MarshalsFAN80]

watch them race for the next league


What are the copperheads going to do????

[fwp]

What are the copperheads going to do????

Hopefully take their time and check out their options. Don't rush into a decision just because the NIFL showed how seedy things can be.

There will be great options that will greatly reduce travel, while still playing indoor ball.

[GoAces]

What are the copperheads going to do????

Possibly get into a women's league and still complain as much they did this season???

[Reichert]

Possibly get into a women's league and still complain as much they did this season???

Still hung up on what transpired out of the Copperhead camp during the playoff journey, huh? It seems to be bothering you more than anyone who follows the Katy squad.

[preeths]

Hey, don't hijack the thread. Let's talk about possible league moves in this one. Here's the latest on the state of the NIFL:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3354649

[Minor League Man]

If it's true, then I think the lineup will be:

Billings (duh)
Rapid City (still angry at CS for letting Howard the Fraud in in the first place)
Wyoming (also too good for NIFL)
Tri-Cities (They really meant they wouldn't join af2. They could still leave the NIFL)

Any others?

[yellowpages]

If it's true, then I think the lineup will be:

Billings (duh)
Rapid City (still angry at CS for letting Howard the Fraud in in the first place)
Wyoming (also too good for NIFL)
Tri-Cities (They really meant they wouldn't join af2. They could still leave the NIFL)

Any others?


NIFL President Carolyn Shiver already knows that those teams won't be back in her league. There are at least three or four others that won't be back, not counting Osceola and Charleston.

What does that leave the NIFL...Arkansas, Beaumont and Greensboro. The rest either have no place to play or have folded.

By the way, great article Paul.

[Rocky]

I agree, Paul, great article!

[Minor League Man]

NIFL President Carolyn Shiver already knows that those teams won't be back in her league. There are at least three or four others that won't be back, not counting Osceola and Charleston.

What does that leave the NIFL...Arkansas, Beaumont and Greensboro. The rest either have no place to play or have folded.

By the way, great article Paul.

But don't think the league will die.

That hayroll CS will probably crank up another 25 teams.

[yellowpages]

No, the NIFL will probably not die. But, it will no longer exist as a legitimate professional indoor league.

[Reichert]

I can see the NIFL becoming like the WWE of football...something there strictly for contrived entertainment with no professional or competitve value whatsoever. In fact, if Carolyn is reading this, that is my suggestion for her....to turn it into more of a WWE type of venture.

[11HP20]

Cs has no need to read message boards. They contain thoughts, opinions, and ideas. CS has already established the fact that she doesn't need any help. She is just so much smarter and business savvy than the rest of the world. Don't get me started on how much more she knows about football than us peons on these boards.

[Minor League Man]

She thinks she knows...But she has no more business running a football league than an orangutan!

[Reichert]

Cs has no need to read message boards. They contain thoughts, opinions, and ideas. CS has already established the fact that she doesn't need any help. She is just so much smarter and business savvy than the rest of the world. Don't get me started on how much more she knows about football than us peons on these boards.

Even CS will eventually run out of markets to burn and all of her bridges will be gone. There are plenty of minor league football markets out there, but it isn't an infinite number. And simply the sour reputation of the NIFL will eventually take some of the greener pastures away, if they haven't already.

[Pounder]

Oh, the burden of those of us enlightened enough to read between the lines... and stupid enough to say what we "read."

Since I don't know any better...

...if I'm reading Paul correctly, and if my hunch is correct that the UIF wants no part of teams it considers too far west (or maybe "poor" or somesuch)...

...then we're talking about an arrangement with the Intense.

Billings, Casper, Rapid City- if they all go, then I doubt Tri-Cities has a choice, but the "surviving" owner there sounds like the Devil. Even with four, they're going to need two more cities to have any sort of scheduling "balance." Frankly, if 2 rumored "western" PIFL markets are actually in hand, THAT's the way to go.

We are talking about an isolated region. This isn't easy to work, no matter how you cut it.

[exit322]

I'd more closely guess a UIF or WIFL destination for these guys.

[Pounder]

Reeths said "established" league, which I take as a league that's actually played games. Still, like I said, I'm stupid for saying what comes to mind.

I think that the UIF would have already taken Billings if they wanted them. The UIF already had a failure in Rapid City. I tend to think they're not enamored with the region.

[AK53]

.....to be a bugaboo for the western franchises. Heck, as I look at a map, while Billins, Tri Cities Rapid City and Casper are the northwest region, it's still a helluva ride from Rapdi City to Tri Cities, shoot, from anyone of 'em to any other one of 'em !

Throw in Katy and Beaumont and you've fot an all nighter, which means three day trips at a minium, with two days wedged into a bus. Remember we're not talking about your 5'2" skinny grandma on these trips.

I can't help but wonder a major league baseball sort of alliance. The National League and American League are very distinct entities which get together for a championship game. Wonder if there couldn't be some sort of World Indoor Football League Corporate entity, (name strictly for example) that would have familial oversight over maybe four different leagues. Let's say the GIFL, if they would go to 8 on 8, the World league in the southeast, The Northwest league, which might for example pick up a few teams maybe across the border in some of those mid size Canadian markets to help with the travel issue, and Great Southwest Legue, (my new name for IFL).

With all those leagues linked to a corporate entity which would exist almost solely for the purpose of condusting playoffs, then each team in eachleague could pay dues to the coroporate entity STRICTLY for the puirpose of assisting their eventuila winners travel to the play off games. The only other question then would be how to determine who would be the host team. I ain't smart enough for that.

Hmmmmmm

[Pounder]

AK, we understand the principle, that's where the PIFL wants to go.

As I think about it, however (plus thinking about WCHL experience), it's more fun to have a final against teams you already hate than it is teams you don't even know. The rub with that, of course, is when you really do hate that opponent, it's more likely the league is too small to absorb natural selection.

Under the circumstances, if I were Billings, I'd prefer IFL to WIFL. There are some cultural and economic connections between the Mountain states and Texas. Partnering with the south makes no sense. Having a league of their own (minimum 8 cities) would be best.

[exit322]

All depends on what the IFL teams are going to do. Wouldn't be a complete shock for the IFL to merge with someone again like they did last year with the NIFL.

[Minor League Man]

Actually, one of the "rumored PIFL markets" just landed a UIF team.

The way I see it, the PIFL is going to be all-expansion for the first year, and then the next year they'll see about adding teams from another league.

With all the indoor leagues popping up, I suggest they all form an organization, the "Indoor Football Confederation of America (IFCA)" and stage a "Tournament of Champions" at the end of all the leagues' seasons to decide the World Indoor Football Champion!

[AK53]

PIFL is just another interloper. Owners need to maintain control. I think the WIFL group has the correct model You are right, Billings has much more in common with Texas and the western group. I still western Canada may be ripe for development. A nice arena in Chilliwack.....

[fwp]

WIFL has many question marks, probably more than the PIFL if it does take off. It'll be interesting to see if it's more than a one year league.

Lot of teams that bounce from league to league every year and one of the NIFL's teams that seemed to have a lot of problems in Charleston.

[Freedom]

Actually, one of the "rumored PIFL markets" just landed a UIF team.

The way I see it, the PIFL is going to be all-expansion for the first year, and then the next year they'll see about adding teams from another league.

With all the indoor leagues popping up, I suggest they all form an organization, the "Indoor Football Confederation of America (IFCA)" and stage a "Tournament of Champions" at the end of all the leagues' seasons to decide the World Indoor Football Champion!

(PIFL) indicated on another board that they could have up to 4 divisions for 2007. Following their own guide lines, they would need 18-24 teams to start that many divisions. Since its their first season, I have a hard time believing they can get 18-24 SOLID teams though expansion only. I think it will be much smaller, or they plan on established teams jumping from other leagues?

[Jaxen]

Can't take credit for this one, DaytonaDan dropped this gut-buster on me ...

How about naming a league that has a few NIFL refugees the Continental States Football Union ... otherwise known as the CS FU.

[ronaldoswalt]

That Is Seriously Funny

[Minor League Man]

LOL!
I really like this idea!

[#1 Guard Fan]

Look for the Fayetteville Guard to be moving on this off season. I think we came close to changing leagues last year but gave the NIFL one more chance. I have not hear any good info as to what league we would move to but I do believe we will leave

[ronaldoswalt]

all the better teams move on rome and most the other better one last less than 2 years

[Flying ACES Fan]

UIF has expanded to Fort Collins, CO so that makes Casper, WY about a 4 hour bus ride away and Rapid City a 6 hour ride and Billings a 6 or 7 hour trip. That would make 4 new teams in the UIF for 07. Maybe someone can pull together a couple of more Nebraska teams. What about Bismarck, ND? Forget Fargo (No interest).

[NoBallinPDX]

I agree that the western teams, Billings,Tri-Cities,Casper and Rapid City would make a very good pacific or western conference for the UIF. My guess is they go that direction. Add a few expansion teams either in Utah, Idaho and Northen Arizona (Do they have any decent sized arena in Flagstaff? Pocatello? Pueblo?) Joined by the Fort Collins franchise and you'd have a good mix. Higher travel expenses will be a given in any of the western states, we're just spread out that much more than the east.
Katy and Beaumont should go IFL; a much better geographical matchup.
Also ,I KNOW I suggested in another thread the notion of a national playoff that included all the leagues...similar to collegiate football. Not NCAA I-A, but like divisions I-AA, D-II D-III and even NAIA. Conferences are all across the country, yet they send qualified teams to a national grid/championship. I'm all for a national 'oversite' commitee or regulating body re: all the indoor (non-afl af2) leagues to insure uniformity and stability, as suggested earlier in the thread...Excellent idea!!
CS FU....I love it!!! HA!!

[preeths]

Check out the articles in the Billings Gazette and Fayetteville Observer today. A call for the Guard to find another league, and confirmation that Billings, Casper, RC and TC are all looking to move as a group. Also mentions some league they're considering.

[Ninthman]

News from Billings paper
http://www.billingsgazette.net/
Click more sportd takes you to
http://www.billingsgazette.net/sports/

[Geoff]

Why do people insist that UIF stands for United Indoor Football League? And since when was the IPFL coming back?

[section106]

I think the Fayetteville newspaper has covered the Guard and the NIFL in a very fair manner the past 6-8 weeks. I know a lot of Guard fans thought the paper was fairly hostile, and probably was, but in fairness the articles lately have covered the controversy while giving credit to the players and coaches for their effort. Even Friedlander seems to be less antagonistic while presenting the issues.

[tony-o]

A couple strange things in the article:
"In the meantime, the Outlaws are considering a move to, among others, the UIF (United Indoor Football League), the IPFL (Indoor Professional Football League) or the WIFL (World Indoor Football League)."
The WIFL seems a little far away, and the IPFL was a surprise contender for me, seeing as how they don't exist anymore.
" 'Of the leagues out there, the UIF makes the most sense right now,' said Austin. "They have strong ownership ... they haven't had a team fold or a game forfeited in two years.' "
Not exactly true. The Rapid City team folded, and Peoria isn't expected to be around this year. But they haven't folded mid-season, which is always good.

[exit322]

The official name of the UIF is either the United Indoor Football League or the United Indoor Football Association, I can't remember which.

The WIFL will be a plenty solid league in the Southeast, just as the UIF is plenty solid where it is. I'm sure not all their teams will make it (they never do), but at least they're not calling everyone in every league grasping for straws. The WIFL and UIF both have established teams, and now the UIF is working on finding new markets to bring the game to.

I don't see the WIFL having any pure expansion teams in 2007, but I won't rule it out. As it stands, you can probably add Fayetteville to the mix, and though not all their fans want to go to a "regional" league, they'll be pleasantly surprised at the quality of football in the WIFL. They'll have to "bring it" every game, or they'll miss the playoffs, let alone finish league runners-up.

And the best part...fans will be able to go to most of their away games without any real trouble if they so choose!

[preeths]

I'm sure the guy meant PIFL, not IPFL.

[exit322]

A couple strange things in the article:
"In the meantime, the Outlaws are considering a move to, among others, the UIF (United Indoor Football League), the IPFL (Indoor Professional Football League) or the WIFL (World Indoor Football League)."
The WIFL seems a little far away, and the IPFL was a surprise contender for me, seeing as how they don't exist anymore.
" 'Of the leagues out there, the UIF makes the most sense right now,' said Austin. "They have strong ownership ... they haven't had a team fold or a game forfeited in two years.' "
Not exactly true. The Rapid City team folded, and Peoria isn't expected to be around this year. But they haven't folded mid-season, which is always good.

Dayton as well before their first season. However, that situation worked out for the better, as everyone else did finish the year. Dayton's been a mess ever since, with now the only team left in the region being Miami Valley, which will only get better.

In terms of home games changed due to the mess, I don't think anyone was actually harmed in that regard too badly...most all changes were made for games later in the year, giving everyone plenty of time to change it up.

It wasn't ideal, but the UIF got through it and then had an even better second year, which is the key. The lack of errors isn't what really proves a league's lasting power...it's that league's ability to get through the errors and fix them so they don't repeat. The GLIFL wasn't perfect this year, but if we can fix the errors that did happen for 2007 and beyond, the league will have a lot of staying power.

[phydeaux72]

Why do people insist that UIF stands for United Indoor Football League? And since when was the IPFL coming back?

What difference does it make if it's United Indoor Football League, United Indoor Football Association, or just simply United Indoor Football? Bottom line is, IT'S A LEAGUE! And I'm sure the writer of the article MEANT to say PIFL, as opposed to IPFL.

Geez, lighten up and use your head a little bit.

[Freedom]

Don't forget Tupelo, they folded . . .

All things being equal, the UIF has done a great job. Anything that has come up has been dealt with and doesn't interfere with the games. Like others have mentioned, no canceled games, no mid-season folding, no forfeits, no replacement players and so on.

Not every team will make it from year to year, but it is a must that they play from start to finish during the year. The UIF has done this. I hope the teams mentioned will join the UIF. The GLIFL and UIF probably have one of the lowest travel budgets of any league out there and look like a regional league should. It's not a bad thing . . .

[exit322]

If nothing else, those four are going somewhere as a group...that's probably the best part. Even if they go to a league that doesn't make as much sense, at least they'd have eachother to play against to save travel a little.

That said, bringing them to UIF brings back Billings-Rapid City and other fun rivalries.

[Freedom]

Shopping themselves around as a group is probably a good idea.

UIF wise - The renewed rivalries would be great, also could get the East vs. West thing really going . . .

[fwp]

Billings-Rapid City played each other this year, and if the 4 are staying together that wouldn't be any different.

I hope they don't go UIF, the best thing UIF had going for it was the NIFL and the AIFL. It'll be harder to hide problems without those leagues, and there will be other hiccups as they increase the size of their league.

Cheez, I heard from someone I know in Florida that they were being very aggressive trying to get a couple of the Florida teams to join.

I know there are good people in the league, but it's a league I just can't follow. With the recent arrest of another employee of the beef for child porn, I just can't see myself going to their games. That's not to say there aren't a lot of really quality people there, but obviously there's some problem with a few.

Heck, it could be said that the annual fire sale moving from league to league was thanks to them.

[Pounder]

If I'm a marketing guy for UIF, otherwise trying to duck fwp's issues, here's my problem with the west. The following are METROPOLITAN population figures (2000 census, rounded) for the current UIF markets, next year's new markets, and the prospective western markets:

Omaha... 717,000
Fort Wayne... 502,000
Lexington... 479,000
Rockford... 371,000
Peoria... 347,000
Evansville... 296,000
Sioux Falls... 172,000
Wheeling... 153,000
Bloomington... 150,000
Sioux City... 124,000

Chicago... 9,158,000 (not that I'd count on 98% of them knowing a team existed)
Colorado Springs... 517,000

Kennewick/Pasco/Richland... 192,000
Billings... 129,000
Rapid City... 89,000
Casper... 67,000

Heck, if I were UIF, I'd be courting Wichita (545,000).

BTW, if you're Tri-Cities, here's the competition you're looking at next year if you go af2:

Everett (Seattle)... 3,555,000
Fresno... 923,000
Albuquerque... 713,000
Bakersfield... 662,000
Stockton... 564,000
Boise... 432,000
Spokane... 418,000
Anchorage... 260,000

...and, BTW, ALL of those western markets are growing faster than their midwestern counterparts. Even Anchorage. Boise's already over 500,000, probably well over, possibly 600K. I doubt they passed Stockton, however.

Other options for our intrepid four? Keep in mind that many of them don't have arenas.

?? Reno... 339,000 (probably too far away, Convention Center would charge an arm and a leg because they can get other business)
Eugene OR... 323,000 (Convention Center got whiff of NIFL shenanigans LONG ago)
Fort Collins CO... 252,000 (dare I mention the rumor?)
Yakima WA... 223,000 (don't think it fits in the Sun Dome)
Chico CA... 203,000 (no arena)
Medford OR... 181,000 (been there, done that)
Topeka KS... 170,000 (I could be persuaded to apologize for this one)
Bellingham WA... 167,000 (Sounds like there's a new arena PLAN)
Redding CA... 163,000 (Convention Center may not be suitable)
Pueblo CO... 141,000 (arena suitable?)
Yuba City CA... 139,000 (arena?)
Grand Junction CO... 116,000 (arena?)
Grand Forks ND... 97,000 (arena outside playing in UND's dome?)
Missoula MT... 96,000 (no arena)
Bismarck ND... 95,000 (would UIF take the plunge?)
Cheyenne WY... 82,000 (arena?)
Great Falls MT... 80,000 (said to be kicking around arena proposal)
Corvallis OR... 78,000 (no arena)
Pocatello ID... 76,000 (no arena outside playing in ISU's dome)

(NOTE: If Idaho Falls ID ends up with its own metro area, it'd probably be bigger than Pocatello, maybe bigger than Cheyenne... but no arena)

I would laugh vociferously at the notion that indoor football would sell in Canada. However, as a public service (2001 census, rounded)...

Vancouver... 1,987,000
Calgary... 951,000
Edmonton... 938,000
(I'd put those three on my "markets too big" list, which tells you what I think of the circumstances in Everett and Fresno and the chances in Chicago errrrr Hoffman Estates)
Winnipeg... 671,000 (probably more in the UIF footprint)
Victoria... 312,000
Saskatoon... 226,000
Regina... 193,000
Kelowna... 148,000
Abbotsford... 147,000

That should tell you how small most of the WHL markets are.

[Freedom]

Nice job Pounder, looks like a lot of work. :)

I think the UIF would be wise to stay in the 200,000 to 800,000 ranges. It will be interesting to see how Chicago works out. Don't know if teams should stay out of the biggers markets or not. Did St. Louis and Cincy do okay this year?

I would like to know the stadium capacities for the western markets you mentioned.

That is something I think potential owners and leagues need to be realistic with too. So many teams try to play in arenas that are simply too small.
If it's a small regional league with low costs, you can get away with playing in a 1500-3500 seat stadium. But leagues like the NIFL and AIFL put teams in small markets then expect the teams to travel a thousand miles for a game. If a team is limited to a small amount of people it can put in the stands, it will also limit the amount of dollars sponsors will be willing to spend. Where will the revenue come from?

Omaha... 8,000
Fort Wayne... 10,500
Lexington... 10,000
Rockford... 6,812
Peoria... 9,400
Evansville... 11,310
Sioux Falls... 4,800
Wheeling... 5,409
Bloomington... 6,800
Sioux City... 7,200

Sioux Falls is the smallest arena in the UIF, but at the same time they pack them in there. Five to ten thousand for arena capacity is something I would like to see the UIF stick with in addition to size of the cities. Most cases they go hand in hand, but now and then you find a really nice place to play in a smaller city.

[11HP20]

Pounder said
"I would laugh vociferously at the notion that indoor football would sell in Canada."
Would this laughter include an exaggerated display of effluvium? Good job on the numbers BTW.

[exit322]

Though the cities are smaller, Casper, Billings, Tri-Cities, and Rapid City (you know, when the team has proven itself legit or is at least good on the field) all draw very well.

The UIF's issues, if they warranted "coming out," would come out whether or not the NIFL or AIFL existed. The only issue that has ever really come out on a national stage was the Montgomery firing players mess. Issues have come out on a local stage (Peoria to a lesser extent, and Fort Wayne). But it does appear the teams and league have worked on figuring out those issues.

Mistakes don't kill a league. Failure to solve and ensure they don't happen again kill a league. All 10 UIF teams played their full schedule this year without incident. And the UIF wasn't the instigator in those Florida calls. It'd only have been feasible if all the WIFL teams went UIF, but why not call just to see? Conducting due diligence is always the best way to make business decisions.

[Reichert]

There's one other city which has huge question marks regarding an indoor team, but still needs to be considered:

Fargo-Moorhead: 201,800

It's an appealing market, but many a minor league sports team has flopped there. Isiah's CBA was a disaster there, the Indoor Football League did miserably there. Two other minor league basketball teams have bombed there, and two junior level hockey teams have simply crashed and burned in F-M. The lone success story in minor league sports there is the F-M RedHawks of the independent Northern League (baseball). That team has managed to become part of Fargo's culture in the summertime and it doesn't help that they are better backed than all of the other previous minor league teams combined. Oh yeah, they win year after year on the field too.

They practically plead every minor league sports league to not come, and when the UIF commissioner made mention of possible expansion into the Fargo market the sports editor of The Forum went out the next day and wrote a long winded editorial on why the UIF SHOULD NOT come to Fargo. They have been burnt, used, trashed, and ripped off by numerous minor league sports.

An owner can try to put a team there, but they had better have some seriously deep pockets becuase they are going to spend at least two years simply building enough trust to get a managable attendance figure. Year One for any Fargo UIF team would have to be written off as a substantial loss automatically for this reason.

[nksports]

Fort Collins CO... 252,000 (dare I mention the rumor?)
I'd think you'd also have to add Denver-Boulder, CO, since I've heard the new Broomefield Arena is in play for indoor football.

[Sykotyk]

I think the point of saying that no teams folded was with regard to midseason. Tupelo happened after they completed their season. Dayton happened before the season, technically. they never did play in the UIF from what I can recall. Sure, the schedule had to be reworked to accomidate the team not being there, but the games that were scheduled, went on as planned.

It also goes to show you why a team-ran league shouldn't have expansion teams the first year.

Sykotyk

[fever frenzy]

The Sun Dome in Yakima is slightly bigger than the Toyota Center which is the Fever home and can sit quite a few more if I am correct. I believe that if Yakima was to get a team it would be supported very well by the community.

[Minor League Man]

First ever NIFL game:

Yakima Shockwave vs. Southern Oregon Heat

Played at SunDome.

[fwp]

I think the point of saying that no teams folded was with regard to midseason. Tupelo happened after they completed their season. Dayton happened before the season, technically. they never did play in the UIF from what I can recall. Sure, the schedule had to be reworked to accomidate the team not being there, but the games that were scheduled, went on as planned.

It also goes to show you why a team-ran league shouldn't have expansion teams the first year.

Sykotyk


Actually, the games that were scheduled wouldn't have been played in the Dayton situation. Wasn't Peoria told not to travel the day before the game, maybe even as they were loading up? While that wasn't in the season, it wasn't much different. Tit for tat.

I hadn't heard that the UIF had refunded the season ticket purchases and sponsorship monies that were collected for their UIF franchise, but maybe I missed it.

[NoBallinPDX]

Can't seem to type a word in edgewise

[Freedom]

I hadn't heard that the UIF had refunded the season ticket purchases and sponsorship monies that were collected for their UIF franchise, but maybe I missed it.

You didn't hear that because it wasn't needed.
Team owners collect season ticket and sponsorship monies, not the league.

[Freedom]

I think the point of saying that no teams folded was with regard to midseason. Tupelo happened after they completed their season. Dayton happened before the season, technically. they never did play in the UIF from what I can recall. Sure, the schedule had to be reworked to accomidate the team not being there, but the games that were scheduled, went on as planned.

It also goes to show you why a team-ran league shouldn't have expansion teams the first year.

Sykotyk

The expansion with the Warbirds should have been fine. The main problem was with the team structure first off, and the fact they were approved by the NIFL and then set off to play in the UIF. If Dayton would have had to deal with one league, they probably would still be going today. Too many things came up and were questioned during the NIFL to UIF and back to the NIFL fiasco . . . It never gave that team a real chance at being successful.

Obvoiusly the approval of Dayton by the NIFL didn't mean much to the folk starting the UIF.

Just saying Sykotyk . . . :)

[fwp]

You didn't hear that because it wasn't needed.
Team owners collect season ticket and sponsorship monies, not the league.

So........your saying that the NIFL having teams that don't pay their players or personnel isn't the leagues fault?

You're saying that NIFL teams that don't fulfill their schedule and the season ticketholders are left with useless tickets isn't the leagues fault?

Naw, I disagree with you. It's wrong in the NIFL, it's wrong with the UIF teams that don't fulfill their obligations.

Sure, there were plenty more of those situations during the NIFL meltdown this year, but it doesn't make it right if any teams do it. There was a time that the NIFL only seemed to have a few situations in a year, like the UIF now with at least the Freedom and the rumor keeps cropping up about Peoria.

Last year there was Dayton defaulting, and there were also rumors about Tupelo, the UIF's Rapid City(who's owner was honored at this years UIF championship game), and the Freedom last year as well.

It's not right anywhere.

[Pounder]

Shopping list of stuff:

The comments on Fargo take me back to a certain phenomenon that was pointed out to me about Boise. Boise State athletics ruled the roost here back in the 80s and 90s, before I moved here. The baseball team moved in, did well, yet was constantly being jerked around by the school... simply greed. The change is that Boise got so "big" that Boise State had to catch up to get any control of it... and they haven't totally got back to that yet. Helps that the success of the football program is a distraction, so to speak.

Therefore, the question I have is whether this sports editor in Fargo is "in the back pocket of North Dakota State." It wouldn't surprise me. Attention to that takes away from attention for most other things.

After discussing markets I think are too large, just guess what I think of Broomfield being in the Denver market.

I'd forgotten about Yakima originally being in the NIFL... but I apparently didn't make myself clear. My question wasn't about the number of seats, it was the "surface area" for the playing surface, wondering if the Shockwave had a full sized field. I doubt it... but I'm reminded of Evansville's situation. I'm not sure it matters in the end, because the Sun Dome people made it clear from day one that sports was a secondary priority in their facility- they want all the agricultural shows they can get, then there's the Central Washington Fair.

Effluvium? Good one. My laughs are pretty tight, but as I advance in age, I can't guarantee a lack of flow.

[Geoff]

The official name of the UIF is either the United Indoor Football League or the United Indoor Football Association, I can't remember which.

The WIFL will be a plenty solid league in the Southeast, just as the UIF is plenty solid where it is. I'm sure not all their teams will make it (they never do), but at least they're not calling everyone in every league grasping for straws. The WIFL and UIF both have established teams, and now the UIF is working on finding new markets to bring the game to.

I don't see the WIFL having any pure expansion teams in 2007, but I won't rule it out. As it stands, you can probably add Fayetteville to the mix, and though not all their fans want to go to a "regional" league, they'll be pleasantly surprised at the quality of football in the WIFL. They'll have to "bring it" every game, or they'll miss the playoffs, let alone finish league runners-up.

And the best part...fans will be able to go to most of their away games without any real trouble if they so choose!
UIF - United Indoor Football Association

[Freedom]

So........your saying that the NIFL having teams that don't pay their players or personnel isn't the leagues fault?

You're saying that NIFL teams that don't fulfill their schedule and the season ticketholders are left with useless tickets isn't the leagues fault?

Naw, I disagree with you. It's wrong in the NIFL, it's wrong with the UIF teams that don't fulfill their obligations.

Sure, there were plenty more of those situations during the NIFL meltdown this year, but it doesn't make it right if any teams do it. There was a time that the NIFL only seemed to have a few situations in a year, like the UIF now with at least the Freedom and the rumor keeps cropping up about Peoria.

Last year there was Dayton defaulting, and there were also rumors about Tupelo, the UIF's Rapid City(who's owner was honored at this years UIF championship game), and the Freedom last year as well.

It's not right anywhere.




No . . . I didn't say any of that FWP. :)


You stated: I hadn't heard that the UIF had refunded the season ticket purchases and sponsorship monies that were collected for their UIF franchise, but maybe I missed it.

I said: No, the UIF didn't need to.

Why? The Warbirds collected season ticket monies, the Warbirds collected sponsorship monies, the Warbirds played their season.

What obligation are you looking for the UIF to fulfill? What obligations are there in FW, Tupelo, Rapid City or Dayton?

Your examples are of NIFL teams sticking it to the fans and sponsors because teams folded during the season. Are you expecting the UIF to pay for that? . . . lol

[Reichert]

I've lived in both Fargo and Broomfield if you can imagine that.

Broomfield is part of the Denver market, sort of. They are a very independent minded suburb, so independent minded that they broke off and formed their own county a few years ago. It is now the City and County of Broomfield. Any team in that market has to be of the belief that they can support themselves based on Broomfield and surrounding suburbs only, meaning a market of right around 100,000 residents. Broomfield just built a brand new events center with seating for 6,000 and it's a dream venue for a venture like af2 or the NBA Development League (which just put a team there, too).

As for Fargo, you're right in that NDSU really controls the field there. But Bison football only plays one night a week and Bison basketball hasn't been anything worthy of seeing until the recent move to D-I. So there has been plenty of opportunity for a minor league hoops or indoor football team to come in there and take the market, but nobody has come in there with a good enough plan to actually get the job done. And so after being burned by bad entry after bad entry to the Fargo sports market the community is just burned out...NDSU just happens to finally be taking advantage of that and marrying their efforts with the community's disgust with all things minor league (save for the RedHawks who don't play during any of NDSU's revenue sports seasons) to form quite the barrier to any other minor league team from entering the market. It's a potent combination.

Mike McFeely is not necessarily in NDSU's hip pocket. But I'm sure his discontent with other minor league sports doesn't make anyone in the NDSU sports department particularly upset. As noted, it's a marriage of two powerful factors that will keep the UIF, the PIFL, the CBA, or even the NBA D-League out of Fargo for years to come unless someone is willing to throw obscene amounts of money at it. Most minor league owners just don't have the stomach or deep pockets for it..better and easier to try in either Bismarck or Grand Forks.

[Pounder]

If Broomfield controls their own media, they have a shot. I have my doubts.

Boise State had the same kind of scheduling you describe for NDSU. Sometimes, it's irrelevant how the rest of the market might think. All of the sudden, bleachers are promised to a baseball team and then yanked out from under them. Major sponsors are confronted with a stadium expansion project at just the time someone else wants the sponsors. There are varied and voluminous ways of undercutting the potential competition.

[preeths]

I hadn't heard that the UIF had refunded the season ticket purchases and sponsorship monies that were collected for their UIF franchise, but maybe I missed it.

Can't swear to it, but there may not have been any money that needed to be refunded, whether or not you blame UIF. The teams completed the season, which would have met their obligations to ticket holders and most, if not all, sponsors. Can't see why either team would have collected anything for the following season.

[Reichert]

Boise State had the same kind of scheduling you describe for NDSU. Sometimes, it's irrelevant how the rest of the market might think. All of the sudden, bleachers are promised to a baseball team and then yanked out from under them. Major sponsors are confronted with a stadium expansion project at just the time someone else wants the sponsors. There are varied and voluminous ways of undercutting the potential competition.

NDSU never tried any of the tricks you mentioned above and as far as the RedHawks go they still don't try them. The F-M RedHawks and NDSU's baseball team share the same field: Newman Outdoor Field, one of indy baseball's finest parks. And in the 90s and early part of this decade they did nothing of the sort to keep smaller sports leagues teams from trying to start up at the Fargodome (and many leagues and teams did). But when NDSU moved up to D-I in all sports they read the tea leaves and noted that Fargo had been beat up on the minor league sports front, which has now left the University to lock up the sporting market to themselves save for the RedHawks.

I guess in the end your point and mine wind up being the same: The nasty concoction of NDSU now being a semi-big-time D-I sporting school and the sour reputation of minor league sports (basketball, football, and hockey) that have set up shop in the F-M area have pretty much guaranteed that nobody's getting into this market for years, if ever.

One more interesting note about the RedHawks...they previously were owned by Otter Tail Power, a sizable electric congolmerate. If anyone screwed with them, they could have just taken it out on their power grid :) As it stands, the CEO of Otter Tail bought the Hawks and owns the team himself now.

The RedHawks are a handful of independent league baseball teams in America that has made a profit year after year...all with the cooperation of NDSU, on whose land their ballpark sits.

[Rocky]

Now this is an interesting thing to say...

"The situations that happened this year are really no different than any other," Layton said. "In all the other leagues, they all experience the same type of thing.

"The strength of the league is not something we're concerned about."


Layton is the co-owner of Wyoming, which is a franchise on the exec committee.

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/08/03/sports/pro/250d2ef85ad7a8ad872571bf00064c7a.txt

[feveredfalcon]

Pounder, it looks like you put a lot of work into your figures. However, I am not sure how they are relevant. The Tri-Cites may be smaller population wise but as far as butts in the seats, we averaged a little over 5000 per game. The UIF champions this year only averaged a little over 4300. (Based on attendance recorded in the Box Scores). The travel for the TC Fever would really be the deciding factor one would think with the closest away game being at least 12 hours away (Wyoming).

As far as the SunDom having the ability to hold a full size indoor field yes it can. The field would actually be more along the lines of an AFL field with the squared end zones, with the ability to seat greater than 6000.
:grin:

[Pounder]

Fevered, I'm not necessarily going to disagree with you.

First off, I'm just a nut with the basic census figures. I keep those handy. It wasn't THAT much work.

I did rather extensive research regarding ECHL markets. The successful teams all seemed to be in markets with at least 300,000 population... and at MOST 500,000 population (maybe 600,000). There are exceptions... though San Diego just stopped being one. One of my hypotheses is that those size markets have enough income to support hockey, but are small enough that TV advertising and other marketing is affordable.

UIF and af2 are almost apples and oranges. af2 seems to skew towards somewhat larger markets (Louisville, Oklahoma City, Birmingham, Little Rock... though it should be noted that these cities have support beginning to wane, and obviously it doesn't work in Memphis and some others), which I find rather funny, because I don't see much reason they should be any different than ECHL franchises. Is the cost issue prohibitive for smaller markets? Meanwhile, UIF has a handful of franchises who thrive at and below the Tri-City market size, but Kennewick is 1,400 miles from Sioux Falls.

NIFL doesn't work at any size, BTW. :D

[fwp]

Can't swear to it, but there may not have been any money that needed to be refunded, whether or not you blame UIF. The teams completed the season, which would have met their obligations to ticket holders and most, if not all, sponsors. Can't see why either team would have collected anything for the following season.

I don't believe the UIF owner carried over into the NIFL. I'm fairly certain that he didn't pass on any of those funds that were collected.

Even though the NIFL fulfilled the Warbirds obligations, with Pewonski no less, I have a feeling that they didn't have any advantage with that lost money.

[Freedom]

I don't believe the UIF owner carried over into the NIFL. I'm fairly certain that he didn't pass on any of those funds that were collected.

Even though the NIFL fulfilled the Warbirds obligations, with Pewonski no less, I have a feeling that they didn't have any advantage with that lost money.

Sorry, but I still don't see why you said the UIF owes Dayton fans & sponsors something.

Jeff Jodaway (sp?) was the person who founded the Warbirds and had the plan? I think it was Mark Timmons that had the $$$ behind the team.

Even though JJ founded the Warbirds, he didn't have majority ownership in the team. I'm gussing Timmons had majority ownership. The Warbirds were approved by the NIFL but decided to go UIF. When they couldn't play in the UIF, the NIFL entered back into the mix.

In the end though, the Warbirds were no longer a UIF team, JJ apparently wasn't the owner or at least had no say in the matter and Pewonski ran the team in the niffle. The season was completed. Season ticket holders got their football games and sponsors got their advertisement.

The actual exchange of ownership and the parties involved is something that never seems to clear to me when the niffle is involved. Since you're fairly certain money is owed, shed some light about who lost it and who should be paying it back.

It still ticks me off for selfish reasons . . . Fort Wayne lost a short 2hr road trip every season. :(